Time to kill that scumbag Arafat? [Archive]

sunndoggy8

03-30-2002, 04:56 AM

Killing him would probably make him a martyr, and even make the situation worse...the problem really is that both leaders won't budge an inch, and it seems like it will never be solved until there is an absolutely humungous loss of life on both sides. It's just a horrible situation that doesn't seem to have an apparent solution, and it's even more maddening because people are dying every day.

I don't think it's all that stupid to fight over land, Christy, considering the fact that it's been the basis for dozens of past wars...but it's not simply about land.

And while not getting into a whole 9/11 discussion, I think there was more to that than just hating the freedom of the US...foreign affairs, actions, domestic security, and a bunch of other factors also had a whole hell of a lot to do with it.

Explaining the entire conflict is not something I want to get into, or I think anyone else really wants to get into explaining. Check online, read about it, if you really want to know. There's plenty of books, news stories, and documentaries about it.

And while "turning Israel loose" would be justified, it would only cause more and more and more people to die...with more arab nations possibly joining the fight...but maybe a crippling war with enormous loss of life is the only thing that would bring peace. It's sickening to say it and imagine it too...but it's the world we're in i guess.

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42nd-delay

03-30-2002, 07:26 AM

No. What would that solve?

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NewYorkDragons80

03-30-2002, 08:32 AM

I think there should be a Palestinian state, but we should defend an Israeli state at all costs.

There are a bunch of reasons that there is no independent Palestine. It would be an ideal place to launch an attack on Israel and there would be nothing they could do about it until it was too late. We don't want another right-wing government in the middle east. Right now the only Arab nation with universal suffrage for its parliament is Bahrain (And the king still has the final say.) Arafat may seem powerless, but don't be fooled. He has abused the little power the Israelis gave him. If Israel gave up the Palestinian territory, they would still want more.

Finally, I think Arafat should live for the same reason I think the South Vietnamese never should have staged a coup against Ngo Dinh Diem. If you only have one pitcher, don't take him out because you have no idea how bad the shortstop's arm is.

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Cybersoldier

03-30-2002, 10:54 AM

If will did that they just might think the israel for it. Either way I'm neutral on this issue. If the US does it just make sure the it seems someone else did it

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brodieman

03-30-2002, 11:23 AM

i know this sounds cruel but i'm just happy to see these waste of a people killing eachother everyday

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The Blowhard

03-31-2002, 12:17 AM

The Arab nations hate America. We kiss their ass for oil, especially the Saudis.
The Arab Scum are killing Israeli women and children, and I think it's time that something DRASTIC be done. Peace? NEVER. The Saudis, Syrians, Iranians, Iraquis and the rest of the Arab world are NOT our friends. Think about it: how would you feel about suicide bombers in NYC, killing innocent civillians on Easter Sunday? The only way to deal with animals is to fight back..harder.

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NewYorkDragons80

03-31-2002, 02:34 AM

Heck, that is mostly true, but again the people of Bahrain are different. The are one of the most informed, modernized societies in the Arab world. They are also one of the few that knows the oil will run out one day, and have taken massive steps to expand their economy.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
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Yerdaddy

03-31-2002, 04:13 AM

It is still the case that the deaths of innocent Palestinian civilians far outnumber the deaths of innocent Israeli civilians. The deaths of any civilians is an awful thing. The only difference I see is that the Palestinian deaths are at the hands of the Israeli military using sophisticated weapons, and the deaths of Israelis are at the hands of various extremist groups with crude bombs and guns. Both Israelis and Palestinians are aggressors in this conflict, and have been irresponsible in avoiding opportunities at peace. Both sides have escalated violence, and neither side can claim that their actions are in "retaliation" for the other side's acts.

I have two Palestinian friends and an Israeli friend, all of whom have traveled recently to Israel and Palestine. The general mood among ordinary people on both sides is anger at the leaders of both sides. Arafat is seen as isolated by the Israeli military and not in control of the Palestinian militant groups, yet he makes weak statements against the attacks. The Sharon government of Israel is seen as deliberately provoking violence to justify more military action and avoid all peace negotiations. Generally speaking, the people of both sides are more angry at the leaders than at the other side. (As I'm writing this, two Israeli citizens have called in to C-SPAN and called for Israel to end the occupation of Palestinian land.)

There is also anger on both sides at the Bush administration for doing as little as possible to restrain Sharon, while Israel continues to be the largest recipient of US military aid. The rest of the Arab world is, for once, unified in offering support for peace with Israel, but the US and Israel are resisting it. This is an opportunity for, if Israel enters peace talks and withdraws from at least the recent incursions, the US to pressure the Arab world to reign in the extremists. Arab governments are in the precarious position of not being able to crack down on extremists when Israel is aggressive, but can do so when there is a serious peace plan on the table. There are examples in the past in the Middle East, or look at Pakistan's recent, (if insufficient), crackdown on extremist groups and disbanding of its pro-Taliban intelligence organization ISI.

What is the issue then? In a 1967 war, Israel illegally the territories now in dispute. The UN, (including the US), has never accepted Israel's right to this land. It is in every respects an illegal occupation. Any final peace contract would have to include Israel withdrawing from the occupied territories. But Israeli leaders would rather have the violence then do this.

Essentially, the best hope for peace is the Bush administration. We are very close allies, (look at the amount of weapons transfers), with Israel, as well as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, etc. Think of it as two friends of ours in a fight. We are the best hope for peace if we demand it. I think the reason that Bush is staying out of the conflict is that the political pressures on him do not come from the American people, who are not interested in understanding complicated foreign policy questions, but from larger political interests, which have their own interests at stake. If he gets involved, he will be assailed by some groups, regardless of what specific actions he takes. But if he does very little, as he is now, he can still claim to be supporting everyone's interests, (or no one's interests). But if Americans took the time to follow foreign affairs, then the worst thing a president could do in this case would be to do nothing. The way I see it, the American people have ceded political power to special interests by not being willing to follow world events and demand that the interests of ordinary people of the world be the priority in making foreign policy decisions.

As for the statements that they all hate us over there: that makes no sense.

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NewYorkDragons80

03-31-2002, 07:13 AM

Yerdaddy, those are probably the most fair arguments we will ever see on this board.

As an Irish-American Catholic, I can sympathize with the Palestinians, but at the same time I can see why Israel is afraid to give them up. They could have avoided this problem if they never occupied lands in the first place. The cause of World War II was the insistence of Britain and France that Germany be punished after World War I. Now we're seeing history repeat itself.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
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Cybersoldier

03-31-2002, 07:50 AM

This is the most unbias remarks I have seen Yerdaddy and you NewYorkDragons80 hit the target. Heckler, Arafat has done nothing really to stop the terrorists bombing but its cause and effect. It seems to be a violence circle that will not end. Killing Arafat willing stop the violence aganist Israeli ot might even increase. Israeli without any question should protect itself, and have been far more patient than any other country in the situation to a limit

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HordeKing1

03-31-2002, 09:46 AM

Killing Arafat is a given. The palestinians, indeed most arabs are, by their actions, less than human. As such killing the lot of them is inconsequntial and would make the world a much better, nicer and safer place.

There is no such thing as a palestinian "civilian." They are trained from birth to hate and to kill Jews and Israelis. I'm sure you've all seen the videos of the lovely arab youths of about 6 with fake explosions taped to their body, holding a ceremony where they proclaim their desire to die in the name of the great jihad.

Lest anyone compare killing arabs to hitler's killing jews here are just a few of the salient differences.

1. The Jews in nazi germany were not suicide bombers, they were not terrorists, they did not do anything to justify hitler's "final solution." Of course, the Jews were also unarmed and didn't hurt a fly, the "final solution" was hitler's way of consolidating his power by uniting the country against a common internal "enemy". There were no "civilians" during WWII and there are no arab civilians today.

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Cybersoldier

03-31-2002, 11:08 AM

I agree that people who teach there kids to hate and to kill other just based on either race or religion should get what they deserve.

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Doogie

03-31-2002, 11:22 AM

Wheres good ole Lee Harvey Oswalt when you really need him??

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NewYorkDragons80

03-31-2002, 11:41 AM

HK, I don't know if you were replying to me or someone else, but my comments about WWII had nothing to do with the Holocaust. What I was trying to say was that any time the victor of a war (Allies in WWI, Israel in 1967) goes out of his way to embarass the losers (Germany after WWI, occupied territories after 1967,) they sow the seeds for further wars just as much as the aggressors. If Israel had not humiliated these people for 35 years, the present-day death toll would be much lower.

In the same sense, Britain and France asked for WWII by embarassing Germany after WWI. Do you think the German children of the 1920's and 1930's were told "It's OK, we forgive the British and French for leaving us in poverty." Of course not, German children were told they should do everything in their power to seek revenge against those nations. Do you consider the average German to be some kind of robot incapable of emotions? I doubt it, but I've seen a whole bunch of propaganda films with little kids goose-stepping. How many films did we see of normal German youth? It doesn't justify generalizing a nation, or in your case, an entire region.

There is some blame that should be placed on the Palestinians for teaching their child every Israeli is evil, but fingers should not just be pointed at Palestinians.

One more thing. Doogie, You're forgetting Dave Ferrie and Clay Shaw :)

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 3-31-02 @ 3:59 PM

ryno

03-31-2002, 12:41 PM

palestine in 2003

bigryno

NATEDOGG

03-31-2002, 12:54 PM

On the subject of killing Arafat, I
say this to Heckler and everyone
else who is in favor of killing him.
As much as I want to see Arafat's
head on a platter, it would do us
no good.

If Arafat is dead at the hands of
the Isrelies, it would be
dangerous to the stability of the
Middle East. Arafat has the
support of the Arab nations and
it would jeporadize the United
State's plans to make Iraq the
next target in our war on
terrorism.

The United States wants to
declare war on Iraq. To have
even a snowball's chance in hell
of being successful, we need the
support of the Arab nations,
who, as much as the would like
to see Saddam dead, they have
said time and again that they
don't have the balls to go into
Iraq and get him.

The idea is that if we can get an
end to the violence in Israel,the
Arab nations will support the US
in a campaign against Iraq.
Again, if Arafat is dead at the
hands of the Israelies, the war
on terror can and will fall by the
wayside.

Seesh, this is the first time I've
ever been serious in a post on
the message board.

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Yerdaddy

03-31-2002, 01:04 PM

HK, You are an intelligent man, and I've always respected your opinions on other subjects. But you obviously hate Arabs, and have advocated wiping them all out on several occasions. I honestly want to know where this hatred comes from? I can't imagine that you watched the images of a handful of Arabs celebrating after 9-11, and ignored the mass of reports of Muslims condemning the attacks and dismissing bin Laden's ideas as self-serving heresy. I'd honestly like to know.

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adolescentmasturbator

03-31-2002, 01:21 PM

I haven't posted here for a while but this is just inane. Most of the Pro-Israeli sentiment in this thread I can understand and sympathize with. Most...except for HordeKing's statements.

Killing Arafat is a given. The palestinians, indeed most arabs are, by their actions, less than human. As such killing the lot of them is inconsequntial and would make the world a much better, nicer and safer place.

I wouldn't be saddened if Arafat died since I have no love for him either.

But let's look at the meaning of your genocidal wishes for the Arab people.

racism

n 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race

Well obviously you are first and foremost a racist. Secondly you are promoting genocide of a people. Stalin and Hitler may have hated each other but they certainly were similar in many ways.

There is no such thing as a palestinian "civilian." They are trained from birth to hate and to kill Jews and Israelis.

Yeah Hitler said that there was no thing as a Jewish civilian or innocent. That all of them were plotting to destroy the Aryans.

I can understand when someone says it's tragic that a civilian died when attacking a military installation or another similar target. But you state there is no such thing as an Arab civilian. That every Arab death is good no matter if it's man, woman, or child since they all, in your eyes, are conspiring aganist Israel. Osama Bin Laden says that all Americans are conspiring aganist Arabs and that none of them are the civilians. Gee how easy it is to match you with OBL.

Come back at me with comments of how I am a rabid Anti-Semite. I am expecting it. But just remember this. Arabs are of Semitic descent. Therefore in a cruel twist of irony you yourself are an Anti-Semite.

This message was edited by adolescentmasturbator on 3-31-02 @ 5:23 PM

Jackie Sloan

03-31-2002, 01:26 PM

Bullseye for Horde King...remember why the Israelis occupied...Palestinians were the aggressors before '67, they got the shit shocked out of them when they lost to Israel. Arafat is the worlds original modern day terrorist, helps no one and supports terror and terrorist indoctrination of the youth. Will killing him "help"? Maybe not, but it sure as hell eliminates one of the worlds major problems - His existence!!
Fuck Arafat!

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NewYorkDragons80

03-31-2002, 02:11 PM

After this Arab summit, it's gonna be walking on eggshells to fight Iraq again. As of right now, we only have the support of Bahrain, Oman, and Kuwait. We will have no choice, but to encourage a coup within Iraq. We probably won't launch a full-scale US invasion.

I probably don't know very much about the Middle East, but I think the Jordanians and Egyptians were the aggressors in 1967. That is irrelevant because Israel still humiliated the aggressors after the war, leaving them with their present-day situation.

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-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 3-31-02 @ 6:25 PM

Se7en

03-31-2002, 05:07 PM

I think there should be a Palestinian state, but we should defend an Israeli state at all costs.

That's surprising, coming from you, Dragon. Personally, I'm far more Draconian - I say enough of the nonsense, just "turn Israel loose" as the term goes, and watch as Palestine is obliterated. Because really, that's what it's going to take. There will NEVER be peace here, until one of the two sides is dead. It's beyond the point of repair.

Israel could remove itself from all Palestinian land, give in to all of the requirements for the Arab peace plan, and the next day, there would STILL be Palestinians on their door step with bombs.

The only difference I see is that the Palestinian deaths are at the hands of the Israeli military using sophisticated weapons,

Israel can't help it if they have better technology. Israel mainly reacts to Palestinian violence, and as a result, sure, Palestinian civilians die.....because the terrorists hide AMONGST the civilians.

In a 1967 war, Israel illegally the territories now in dispute. The UN, (including the US), has never accepted Israel's right to this land.

The spoils of war. Israel basically conquered the land, and thus it's theirs. We did the same thing a few hundred years ago, and called it "colonization".

The United States wants to declare war on Iraq. To have even a snowball's chance in hell of being successful, we need the
support of the Arab nations,

Not necessarily. We COULD take Iraq without support, if we wanted too, but we'd rather not have the other Arab countries trying to pull shenanigans behind our back while we were carrying on the campaign.

That is irrelevant because Israel still humiliated the aggressors after the war, leaving them with their present-day situation.

Humiliation has only a small part in it, IMO. The Palestinians and their ancestors have hated the Jews for millennia. The only reason that the animosity may have escalated since 1967 is that the Palestinians realized that Israel could - and would - kick their ass if they started their terrorist tactics again.

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Yerdaddy

03-31-2002, 06:46 PM

The spoils of war. Israel basically conquered the land, and thus it's theirs. We did the same thing a few hundred years ago, and called it "colonization".

Might makes right? By this principle, how were we justified in stopping the Iraqi annexation of Kuwait? Fortunately, the US still (mostly) adheres to the principle of rule of law. That's what separates us from the Taliban.

Israel can't help it if they have better technology. Israel mainly reacts to Palestinian violence, and as a result, sure, Palestinian civilians die.....

My point is that we, in the US, find it easier to overlook Israeli violence, (which has NOT been mainly reaction to Palestinian violence), because tanks, bulldozers and Israeli snipers are not as sensational as suicide bombers. We also tend to look at military acts as more inherently justified than terrorism. Regardless of the methods, killing innocent civilians is murder. Israel has targeted civilians as much as Hamas and Islamic Jihad. As reported today in an MSNBC article, 3/4 of the deaths in the recent conflict have been Palestinians.

because the terrorists hide AMONGST the civilians.

They should be more like Israeli aggressors and hide BEHIND their civilians, in bunkers and fortified government buildings?

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42nd-delay

03-31-2002, 07:06 PM

Humiliation has only a small part in it, IMO. The Palestinians and their ancestors have hated the Jews for millennia.

Not really true. Relations between the people of the region were essentially good the past few millenia, until this century. Certainly, in the 19th century, Jews and Musliums lived side by side in Palestine, which was then part of the Ottomann Empire, which though Muslium let Jews and Christians practice their own faiths. It really wasn't until the area came under British control and calls for a Jewish state began, accompanied by large numbers of settlers, that tempers and hatred flared.

At least that's what I recall learning, please correct me if I'm wrong.

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NewYorkDragons80

03-31-2002, 07:33 PM

Jewish Zionists lived peacefully with Muslims for a very long time. In fact, Jews killed more British soldiers (Britain controlled this region in the early 20th century) than Muslims until the creation of Israel. Of course, terrorism carried out by Jews then was not as widespread as the terrorism of today's Palestinians.

The same can be said in Ireland. Protestants and Catholics lived side by side in peace for roughly 350 years.

In each case, aggression was sparked by preferential treatment given by the British governent. It's just a little more of history repeating itself.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 3-31-02 @ 11:45 PM

CYYYFYYY

03-31-2002, 09:23 PM

Food for thought.... They asked 40 palensinains
(Arab) children of 8 years old what would they do if
they saw a jewish child.... Half of them said they
would kill them.... they asked 40 Israeli (jewish)
Children what would they do if they saw an Arab
child... 5 said punch them and the rest said run or
hide.....So you do the math.... can there be peice
when 8 year olds want war??????

David the Franchize
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The Blowhard

03-31-2002, 09:36 PM

One of the biggest enemies are the Saudis. We ignore them, corporate America is too busy giving them rimjobs for their oil.

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Yerdaddy

03-31-2002, 09:38 PM

Food for thought.... They asked 40 palensinains (Arab) children of 8 years old what would they do if they saw a jewish child.... Half of them said they would kill them.... they asked 40 Israeli (jewish) Children what would they do if they saw an Arab child... 5 said punch them and the rest said run or hide.....So you do the math.... can there be peice when 8 year olds want war??????

Who is "they"? Which major university did this groundbreaking piece of research? How can you even take that seriously?

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adolescentmasturbator

03-31-2002, 09:42 PM

Heckler's right. You can't be saying you are a government that promotes human rights and decency yet support Saudi Arabia(there are a lot of regimes that need to being supported by the US government).

CYYYFYYY

03-31-2002, 10:16 PM

You are right..... If i don;t say the paper I should
not say it....... My friend told me and I did nnot ask
him the paper because I know he is relaibel but you
are right I should not say such a thing unless I have
a sourse..... But hey people are doing suicide
bombings on holy hollidays... You do the math..

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Yerdaddy

03-31-2002, 11:02 PM

It's not that I would expect you to cite sources just to post a survey that you heard about if it weren't such a convoluted issue as Middle-East peace. First of all, a study of 80 children is not big enough to trust the results. Such a study was obviously not carried out by a serious researcher.

Second, with a subject that brings so much emotions to the surface as this, half the information flying around is propaganda in support of one side or the other.

In context, what you posted was the equivalent of an email forward about a new computer virus. There's a 50/50 chance that it's bogus.

As for the terrorist attacks on Easter, it's sickening that you could predict that there would be bombings today. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are disgusting, and if the Israeli regime was targeting them specifically, then I would support their actions. But I can't. The Sharon regime has been guilty of the same thing.

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NATEDOGG

04-01-2002, 05:36 AM

Another thing is this: english on
one side and Arabic on the other.
Ever hear that coming from
Sharon? There can be no
accurate translation of the Arabic
language because the Arabs will
claim it false. So who knows,
what is being said to the
Palenstinians could be "kill, kill,
kill," while what Arafat says to us
could be "peace and love
everybody,"....well not really but
you guys get the idea.

Thanks to AG1247 for the SIG pic
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HordeKing1

04-01-2002, 10:54 PM

The Arab terrorist scum murderers are not fighting over land. It NEVER was over land. 
At Jerusalem's Al-Aksa Mosque the Muslim clergyman appointed by Arafat to the Palestinian Authority, delivered a forceful sermon instructing the faithful on the subject of Jews. (Not Israeli's.Jews in general). "Have no mercy on the Jews. No matter where they are, in any country. Fight them where they are. Whenever you meet them, kill them." 
From the same pulpit, Sheikh Ikrema Sabri, the Arafat appointed Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine, issued a call to Holy War. "Every Palestinian is in a state of Jihad.who willingly sacrifice their offspring [and are] participating in the great reward of jihad to liberate Al-Aksa. 
Mark Seager, a British photographer in Ramallah shortly after two Israeli were murdered (literally torn limb from limb) reported in the Sunday Telegraph of London that the mob howled "no pictures" and attacked him. The crowd displayed "such hatred, such unbelievable hatred. The worst thing was that "I realized the anger they were directing to me was the same as that which they'd had toward the [Israeli] soldier before dragging him from the police station and killing him..It was murder of the most barbaric kind.I know that I'll have nightmares for the rest of my life. 
In Washington, Ottawa and Paris, Palestinian demonstrates have chanted in Arabic for the slaughter of ALL Jews. In France alone there have been more than 200 attacks on Jewish targets within the last few months. A synagogue in Versailles was destroyed, four others near Paris were desecrated and a school bus of Jewish kids stopped by gunmen. 
These attacks continue in England, German, North and South America, Australia and South Africa. All directed towards Jews, not Israelis, but Jews. Not since the 1930's have Jews worldwide been subjected to this kind of threat. 
Here's what we know 1. Arab kids are trained from birth to hate Jews and to kill whenever possible 2. Consider the Arabic-language TV show called "Children's Club." It has puppet shows, songs, cute characters and a rip off of Mickey Mouse. It's the Palestinian version of Sesame Street - but on this street, kids sing about becoming "suicide warriors" and directing "violence, anger, anger, anger" against Israel and ALL Jews. 3. This "education" continues their whole life. 4. With Palestinian animals like this, war is not a question of "if" but when. It will come down to a matter of "them" or "us." Israel and America's, indeed the whole civilized world MUST eliminate these vermin and scour the world of their presence. 5. Some people say that there are "innocent civilians." Bullshit! Every one of these "innocents" is out to kill Israeli's, Jews and Americans; anyone not like them. 6. Don't for a minute think that non-Jews are safe. The Arab hatred is not limited to Jews. They are merely the first and most opportune targets. Whenever the opportunity arises they will kill anyone not like them - in other words, any civilized decent human beings. Perhaps you remember the WTC on 9/11/01? Perhaps you remember the Cole? Perhaps you remember the embassy bombings? 7. These savages know only hate and through their actions have lost whatever semblance of humanity they may once have possessed. 8. I do not condemn them for their race or ethnicity, but for their actions. Because of them they are utterly without redemption. 9. Americans of Arabic ethnicities have to make a choice: They are either with us, or against us. In the latter case, they must be treated like the rest of the Arab terrorist population. 10. Why do I care so much about this issue? Aside from the fact that it is a matter of survival for Israel and for Jews and indeed for non-Arabs, I've had family killed by these dogs. One of them survived the camps only to die at the modern day version of the Gestapo's terror tactics. 
I offer the following more moderate letter written by Binyamin Netanyahu, former Prime Minister of Israel. More to follow. 

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HordeKing1

04-01-2002, 10:55 PM

Binyamin Netanyahu, former Prime Minister of Israel.

(March 29, 2002) - Since Yom Kippur in 1973, Israel has not experienced a violent Arab attack so laced with savage contempt for our people and our heritage as we experienced on Passover Eve this year.

The message Palestinian terrorists are sending us is crystal clear: We will murder you at every opportunity, in every place, at any time - even on the holiest of your days.

An unremitting carnage that indiscriminately slaughters all who come within the murderous reach of Palestinian terrorists shows the depths of their hatred. Clearly, the only constraint for Arab terrorists is their destructive capability. Given the power, they would destroy all of us, down to the last infant.

The primary objective of Arafat's terrorist regime is not to establish the twenty-second Arab state, but to destroy the only Jewish state. This was and remains the heart of the conflict.

In 1948, the Arabs rejected an international resolution that would have established an Arab state, and instead attempted to destroy an embryonic Jewish state. Fifty-two years later, Arafat rejected a similar offer and demanded the flooding of Israel with millions of Palestinians, a measure that would effectively bring about the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state.

With such a regime, whose ultimate objective is our destruction and which pursues this objective by the most barbaric means imaginable, there is no place for negotiations and no hope for reaching any sustainable peace agreement. Indeed, the much-vaunted political solution to end the conflict was in fact attempted two years ago at Camp David, and it utterly failed. Arafat rejected a scandalously far-reaching Israeli offer of a sovereign Palestinian state in Judea, Samaria, and the Gaza Strip, which included half of Jerusalem, and instead chose to unleash the present war of terror against Israel.

There is only one option that is now available to Israel: to decisively win the war that has been forced upon us. What is required of us today is not a willingness to clench our teeth and bear this ongoing violence. We must instead seek a total military victory against an implacable enemy that is waging a terrorist war against us.

First, we must immediately dismantle the Palestinian Authority and expel Arafat. Second we must encircle the main Palestinian population centers, purge them of terrorists, and eradicate the terrorist infrastructure. Third, we must establish security separation lines that will allow Israeli armed forces to enter Palestinian territory, but prevent Palestinian terrorists from entering our towns and cities.

The choice we face today is not between military victory and a security separation. Rather, we must do both together. Only by combining the two can we stop the terror, restore a deterrence that has been dangerously eroded in the last two years, and enable a realistic and moderate leadership to emerge among the Palestinians with which we can
pursue a political settlement in the future.

Like a partial dose of antibiotics that is not sufficient to cure the disease, the partial actions of the government and the fitful changes between a policy of restraint and half-hearted military action has not and will not achieve anything. Our excessive concern about the international community has also borne bitter fruit. Israel's refusal so far to act as would any other self-respecting nation heightens the doubts in the minds of our friends of our belief in the justice of our cause and encourages our enemies to increase the bloodshed.

The only way to win international understanding for our position, especially in America, is to steadfastly assert our basic right to defend ourselves and achieve a quick and decisive military victory that will stop the terrible massacre of our citizens.

Finally, the claim that we have tried all military means to end the terror is baseless. We have not even used a fraction of our military power, and the little we have used has not been directed at the right target, namely ending

HordeKing1

04-01-2002, 10:56 PM

Views of Gen. (USAF-Ret) Richard E. Hawley - 3/25/02

Since the attack, I have seen, heard, and read thoughts of such surpassing stupidity that they must be addressed. You've heard them too. Here they are:

1) "We're not good, they're not evil, everything is relative."
Listen carefully: We're good, they're evil, and nothing is relative. Say it with me now and free yourselves. You see, folks, saying "We're good" doesn't mean, "We're perfect" okay? The only perfect being is the bearded guy on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. The plain fact is that our country has, with all our mistakes and blunders, always been and always will be, the greatest beacon of freedom, charity, opportunity, and affection in history. If you need proof, open all the borders on Earth and see what happens. In about half a day, the entire world would be a ghost town, and the United States would look like one giant line to see "The Producers."

2) "Violence only leads to more violence."
This one is so stupid you usually have to be the president of an Ivy League university to say it. Here's the truth, which you know in your heads and hearts already: Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more violence. Limp, panicky, half-measures lead to more violence; However, complete, fully-thought-through, professional, well- executed violence never leads to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the other guys are all dead. That's right, dead. Not "on trial," not "reeducated," not "nurtured back into the bosom of love." Dead. D-E-Well, you get the idea.

3) "The CIA and the rest of our intelligence community has failed us."
For 25 years we have chained our spies like dogs to a stake in the ground, and now that the house has been robbed, we yell at them for not protecting us. Starting in the late seventies, under Carter-appointee Stansfield Turner, the giant brains who get these giant ideas decided that the best way to gather international intelligence was to use spy satellites." After all," they reasoned, "you can see a license plate from 200 miles away." This is very helpful if you've been attacked by a license plate. Unfortunately, we were attacked by humans. Finding humans is not possible with satellites. You have to use other humans. When we bought all our satellites, we fired all our humans, and here's the really stupid part. It takes years, decades to infiltrate new humans into the worst places of the world. You can't just have a guy who looks like Gary Busey in a Spring Break '93 sweatshirt plop himself down in a coffee shop in Kabul and say "Hiya, boys. Gee, I sure would like to meet that bin Laden fella." "Well, you can, but all you'd be doing is giving the bad guys a story they'll be telling for years.

4) "These people are poor and helpless, and that's why they're angry at us."
Uh-huh, and Jeffrey Dahmer's frozen head collection was just a desperate cry for help. The terrorists and their backers are richer than Elton John and, ironically, a good deal less annoying. The poor helpless people, you see, are the villagers they tortured and murdered to stay in power. Mohamed Atta, one of the evil scumbags who steered those planes into the killing grounds (I'm sorry, one of the "alleged hijackers," according to CNN - they stopped using the word "terrorist," you know), is the son of a Cairo surgeon. But you knew this, too. In the sixties and seventies, all the pinheads marching against the war were upper-middle-class college kids who grabbed any cause they could think of to get out of their final papers and spend more time drinking. At least, that was my excuse. It's the same today. Take the Anti-Global-Warming (or is it World Trade? Oh, who knows what the hell they want, demonstrators) They all charged their black outfits and plane tickets on dad's credit card before driving to the airport in their SUV's.

5) "Any profiling is racial profiling."
Who's killing us here, the Norwegians? Just days after the attack, the New York Times had an article saying dozens of extended members of the gazillionaire b

NewYorkDragons80

04-02-2002, 06:00 AM

All this violence is why there should be a Palestinian state. My opinion of why there should be a Palestinian state has always been based on me turning the news on and just hanging my head in shame. I'm sick of hearing that the little town of Bethlehem we hear about every Christmas is being blown up. I don't feel this way because I think the Palestinians are "good guys," I just want this to stop. A Palestinian state may not stop all the violence, but it will lessen it to a point where the world community, including Arab nations, denounces it.

Hordeking, I think it's sickening that there is a puppet show like the one you mention. Still, you are forgetting the Arab-Israelis that fight alongside the Jews. I think EVERY person has the capacity to do good, regardless of the environment they were raised in.

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Meatball

04-02-2002, 09:45 AM

The New York Times

March 31, 2002
Suicidal Lies

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

The outcome of the war now under way between the Israelis and Palestinians is vital to the security of every American, and indeed, I believe, to all of civilization. Why? Quite simply because Palestinians are testing out a whole new form of warfare, using suicide bombers - strapped with dynamite and dressed as Israelis - to achieve their political aims. And it is working. 
Israelis are terrified. And Palestinians, although this strategy has wrecked their society, feel a rising sense of empowerment. They feel they finally have a weapon that creates a balance of power with Israel, and maybe, in their fantasies, can defeat Israel. As Ismail Haniya, a Hamas leader, said in The Washington Post, Palestinians have Israelis on the run now because they have found their weak spot. Jews, he said, "love life more than any other people, and they prefer not to die." So Palestinian suicide bombers are ideal for dealing with them. That is really sick.

The world must understand that the Palestinians have not chosen suicide bombing out of "desperation" stemming from the Israeli occupation. That is a huge lie. Why? To begin with, a lot of other people in the world are desperate, yet they have not gone around strapping dynamite to themselves. More important, President Clinton offered the Palestinians a peace plan that could have ended their "desperate" occupation, and Yasir Arafat walked away. Still more important, the Palestinians have long had a tactical alternative to suicide: nonviolent resistance, … la Gandhi. A nonviolent Palestinian movement appealing to the conscience of the Israeli silent majority would have delivered a Palestinian state 30 years ago, but they have rejected that strategy, too.

The reason the Palestinians have not adopted these alternatives is because they actually want to win their independence in blood and fire. All they can agree on as a community is what they want to destroy, not what they want to build. Have you ever heard Mr. Arafat talk about what sort of education system or economy he would prefer, what sort of constitution he wants? No, because Mr. Arafat is not interested in the content of a Palestinian state, only the contours.

Let's be very clear: Palestinians have adopted suicide bombing as a strategic choice, not out of desperation. This threatens all civilization because if suicide bombing is allowed to work in Israel, then, like hijacking and airplane bombing, it will be copied and will eventually lead to a bomber strapped with a nuclear device threatening entire nations. That is why the whole world must see this Palestinian suicide strategy defeated.

But how? This kind of terrorism can be curbed only by self-restraint and repudiation by the community itself. No foreign army can stop small groups ready to kill themselves. How do we produce that deterrence among Palestinians? First, Israel needs to deliver a military blow that clearly shows terror will not pay. Second, America needs to make clear that suicide bombing is not Israel's problem alone. To that end, the U.S. should declare that while it respects the legitimacy of Palestinian nationalism, it will have no dealings with the Palestinian leadership as long as it tolerates suicide bombings. Further, we should make clear that Arab leaders whose media call suicide bombers "martyrs" aren't welcome in the U.S.

Third, Israel must tell the Palestinian people that it is ready to resume talks where they left off with Mr. Clinton, before this intifada. Those talks were 90 percent of the way toward ending the occupation and creating a Palestinian state. Fourth, U.S. or NATO troops must guarantee any Israeli-Palestinian border.

"The Spanish Civil War was the place where the major powers all tested out their new weapons before World War II," said the Israeli political theorist Yaron Ezrahi. "Well, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict today is the Spanish Civil War for the 21st century. A big test is taking place of whether suicide terrorism can succeed as a st

adolescentmasturbator

04-02-2002, 06:22 PM

Limp, panicky, half-measures lead to more violence: However, complete, fully-thought-through, professional, well- executed violence never leads to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the other guys are all dead.

And Sharon does the former. No one is calling Arafat an angel. I would put him on the same level as Sharon but I don't advocate KILLING Sharon just because I strongly dislike him. Because that will just inflame the situation and create a power vacuum. Like him or not Arafat is nowhere near as bad as Islamic Jihad or Hamas. Killing him would just give those groups the opportunities they need.

And your comments about how there is no such thing as an Arab "civilian". How is that anything but racist. Every race on the planet has a tendency to become terroristic, and irrationally violent. Whether it be Germans, Japanese, Chinese, British, French, Turks, Palestinians, Jews, etc.

Just look at American History. America has done some pretty inhumane stuff to natives, etc. But with that history am I correct in making a blanket statement that all Americans are inhumane terrorists? No, not at all. I would be totally wrong in that statement. Everything is not black and white but different shades of grey.

DarkHippie

04-03-2002, 03:05 PM

It's incredibly ironic that there's a battle over the holy land when nothing is more holy thatn life itself. every religion believes this (yes islam included, which is why their suicides in battle is considered worthy of life in paradice)

HK, are you really preaching the extermination of an entire race? I can not believe a fellow Jew is speaking this way. maybe we should should have them put green crescents on their sleeves first? or put them in ghettos? and what do we do with the non-arab muslims? i guess we'll just have to conquer the world. Hey, lets start with POLAND!!

Listen to yourself for once before you start with your hatred. I don't care if this is your forum, you're words are poison. So go ahead, belittle my words the way you imply to everyone else, tell me how i know nothing of jewish prejudice, disregard my heritage (tribe of Levi), how i know nothing of israel, though i have Israeli relatives, and took 9 credits worth of middle east / jewish history in college. tell me how ignorant I am.

You're all speaking like barbarians, "kill him, and kill her." Just stop!! the entire world knows that israel has shot itself in the foot with this move. Even Bush won't back them up, he just sits in his chair and picks his ass.

this is not an never ending cycle either. the Jews and muslims were allies for centuries until after wwii. Much shorter of a time than say . . . england and ireland, and they have taken huge steps toward peace. so don't say that it can't be done. You're just afraid to try it.

Cowards hide behind tanks, and say the world is out to get them. time to step out from behind the abrams.

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Se7en

04-03-2002, 06:42 PM

I gotta say, THANK YOU HORDEKING.

That is what it's all about. It's not about land, it's all about anti-Semitism.

All this violence is why there should be a Palestinian state.

I disagree. Because of what Horde King has said, and what I believe - it's not about land, it's about race hatred. Which is why this situation will NEVER stop. You could give the Palestinians all the land they want, as long as there is a Jew alive in Israel, they will never be happy.

I think EVERY person has the capacity to do good, regardless of the environment they were raised in.

I wish I could believe this way. But I'm far too cynical.

The reason the Palestinians have not adopted these alternatives is because they actually want to win their independence in blood and fire.

This is so very true. It isn't about desparate measures, it's about taking out as many Jews as possible.

I can not believe a fellow Jew is speaking this way.

Why wouldn't he feel this way? Do you think that no Jew back in Germany circa WW2 wouldn't have smiled at the thought of all Germans wiped off the face of the planet?

I look at the situation like this: 60 years ago, a country / race attempted to wipe out the Jews, who were largely unable to defend themselves.

Fast forward to today, another country / race is attempting to wipe out the Jews, and when the Jews - now capable of defending themselves - fight back, THEY are the bad guys.

I totally sympathize with the way Horde King feels. I can see where he's coming from.

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Yerdaddy

04-04-2002, 01:54 AM

Horde King,
I'm very sorry to hear that you have lost family to terrorism in Israel. Beacause the tone of your posts on the Middle East differed so much from your thoughtful and generous insight into other people's, I suspected that you had a personal connection to Middle East events.

I'll try not to be confrontational in continuing this thread, but I will continue to lay out my understanding of the issues. We all agree that the suicide bombings are reprehensible and cannot be justified by any cause. Where we separate in condemnation is that you condemn All Arabs as "less than human" and that they all want to kill all Jews, Israelis and Americans. To me, your logic seems like textbook inductive reasoning, (terrorist extremists want to kill Jews, Israelis and Americans - terrorist extremists are Arabs - therefore all Arabs want to kill Jews, Israelis and Americans.) But because of how the pain of so much violence spreads across the globe, and because of the massive amounts of propaganda floating around from all sides, it is easy to paint this conflict in black and white, good vs. evil terms. It is comforting even to the unattatched to simply choose a side. But as with most issues, this conflict does not fit into that simple mold. A terrorist is a terrorist, but all Arabs and all Palestinians are not terrorists.

Much is made in the press about inflamatory and bigoted statements, like the ones from Palestinian clerics you quoted and like the children's show you cited. I read the article about that show. It ends with the statement that "Not all Palestinians agree with sacrificing their children for the sake of the "Jihad" against Israel, however", and it cites a Pro-Palestinian Arab journalist's criticism of these leaders who send children to die while they sit in their offices waiting for the next round of negotiations. Unfortunately moderate Palestinians who criticize terrorists and Palestinian leaders aren't considered sensational enough to make the news.

Last week there was a front-page story in the Washington Post about the 22-year-old girl who blew herself up outside a market and her friend that wants to do the same. Three weeks before, the girl had seen her neighbor shot and killed as he played with Legos with his son. They also quote her fiance saying "I hope God forgives her for what she has done." Hateful clerics and TV shows don't make an entire people what they are, and the pain of death doesn't even drive all Palestinians to terrorism.

Terrorism is still not the only crimes being committed in the Middle East, (but if you pick selectively through the news, you could come to that conclusion). Here's some exerpts from the US State Dept. 2001 Human Rights Report on Israel and the Occupied Territories, http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/nea/8262.htm (released last month):

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Yerdaddy

04-04-2002, 01:57 AM

Israel's overall human rights record in the occupied territories was poor, continuing a deterioration that began in late 2000, after the beginning of the sustained violence of the Intifada. Israeli security forces committed numerous, serious human rights abuses during the year. Security forces killed at least 501 Palestinians and 1 foreign national and injured 6,300 Palestinians and other persons during the year, including innocent bystanders.

Some journalists who were covering the clashes were injured and killed by IDF fire. The Israeli authorities placed limits on freedom of assembly, and severely restricted freedom of movement for Palestinians. Israeli security forces failed to prevent, and in some cases protected, some Israelis who entered Palestinian-controlled areas in the West Bank and injured and killed several Palestinians.

In contravention of their own rules of engagement, which provide that live fire is to be used only when the lives of soldiers, police, or civilians are in imminent danger, Israeli security units often used excessive force against Palestinian demonstrators including live fire. IDF forces also shelled PA institutions and Palestinian civilian areas in response to Palestinian attacks on Israeli targets. Israeli security forces killed 93 Palestinians and injured 1,500 in these attacks. The IDF killed another 68 Palestinians during Israeli incursions into Palestinian-controlled territory (Area A). Israeli security forces frequently impeded the provision of medical assistance to Palestinian civilians by their strict enforcement of internal closures, which reportedly contributed to at least 32 deaths.

Israeli civilians, especially settlers, harassed, attacked, and occasionally killed Palestinians in the occupied territories. There were credible reports that settlers killed at least 14 Palestinians during the year. Three Jewish extremist groups, believed to be associated with settlers, claimed responsibility for the killing of five other Palestinians, including an infant, in three separate attacks. Although Israeli officials criticized the acts and promised to take action and detained one suspect, they made no other arrests in any of these cases by year's end. Settlers also caused significant economic damage to Palestinians by attacking and damaging greenhouses and agricultural equipment, uprooting olive trees, and damaging other valuable crops. The settlers did not act under government directive in the attacks; however, they were at times accompanied by Israeli soldiers whose standing orders are to protect, not arrest or restrain, Israeli civilians in the occupied territories. The Israeli Government generally did not prosecute the settlers for their acts of violence. In general settlers rarely serve prison sentences if convicted of a crime against a Palestinian.

Here are the stats on the Palestinian Authority, (PA), Palestinian civilians, and the terrorist groups:

[i] The PA's overall human rights record continued to be poor; its performance improved in a few areas, but worsened in several others during the year. Unlike in the previous year, there were no documented instances of on-duty Palestinian security forces killing Israeli security force members in the occupied territories during the year. Some off-duty members of Palestinian security services and Fatah faction reportedly participated with civilians and militant groups in violent attacks against Israeli settlers, other civilians, and soldiers. At year's end, there was no conclusive evidence that the most senior PLO or PA leadership gave prior approval for these acts. On a number of occasions, Arafat called on Palestinians not to fire from Area A and ordered a complete cease-fire. However, Arafat did not take sufficient sustained action to end the violence. PA security forces arrested some of those implicated in the violence, but many quickly were released or not kept under credible conditions of arrest.

Palestinian civilians were responsible for the deaths of the 87 Israelis killed in the occupied territories. Pales

HordeKing1

04-04-2002, 08:17 PM

YERDADDY - You can be confrontational. Obviously, neither fact, ethics, reason, history, or practicality has any impact on your outlook so I do not expect to change it.

But please try to learn more about the subject. Most of your "facts" like calling Israel's soverign territory "occupied land," merely b/c of a biased UN resolution, which has been historically anti israel, is beyond ludicrous. In a defensive war, attacked by the surrounding Arab states Israel kicked their butts. Any land captured is now theirs.

And again, it is NOT about land. It has NEVER been about land and it will NEVER be about land. It's about killing Jews and non-arabs.

Whatever your views, or outlook or prejudices, it has come down to one simple equation. One side will exterminate the other. My wish is for the Jews to decimate their enemies to such an extent that no one ever dares attack them again.

The US (and Israel) should have adopted this policy ages ago. Failure to respond lethaly led to numerous embassy bombings, the cole, the WTC, Anthrax and who knows what. It's time for America and Israel to kill those who seek to destroy them.

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HordeKing1

04-04-2002, 08:25 PM

ADOLESCENT - I had to reply to your post separately. Obviously you are projecting your own bigotry onto others and your own racial and ethnic background onto a situation you obviouisly don't understand.

Even so, even from you comparing the Jews in Nazi Germany to the palestinians is particularly moronic. No Jews provoked hitler's final solution by strapping bombs to their chest and blowing themselves up. No Jews, threw rocks, stones, fired guns, raped and killed german or nazi officers. The filthy less than human actions of the palestinians (who were not even in the country until about 68) make them like Nazi Germany. Their goal is erradication of Israel and all Jews and Americans and their allies.

When someone comes to destroy you, you must get up and destroy him. For to long Israel has responded halfheartedly to the increasingly violent attacks of those not worthy of the genus of sapiens. It's a question of us or them.

It will be us.

BTW, you've referred to anti-semitism previously as being anti-arab as well as anti jewish. I don't know why I let that go before. I guess I'm still shaking my head at the temerity, audacity and lack of intelligence that statement demonstrates.

There's a wonderful book you should consult before you define something. It's called a dictionairy. (I'm sure they have one available "For Dummies").

Anti-Semitism is defined by Websters as "hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group"

Anti semites like you and your arab brethren hate jews because they are jews. I hate arabs for their actions. (This means by definition that i am not a racist, something I'm sure passed over your head once again.)

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Yerdaddy

04-04-2002, 08:53 PM

But please try to learn more about the subject. Most of your "facts" like calling Israel's soverign territory "occupied land," merely b/c of a biased UN resolution, which has been historically anti israel, is beyond ludicrous. In a defensive war, attacked by the surrounding Arab states Israel kicked their butts. Any land captured is now theirs.

"Occupied Territories" is the official term used by the US State Dept. There has actually been many UN resolutions calling for Israel to withdraw from the "Occupied Territories", because if conquest by war were still a valid method of acquiring land, then we would have been in violation of international law by kicking Iraq out of Kuwait. In fact the aquisition of these places by war was a violation of the UN Charter, which is a binding treaty that Isreal signed on to when it joined. It's called rule of law and it's critical for the maintainance of any kind of order in today's world. Israel has aknowledged that it does not have a legal claim over the territories, but, with the help of the US veto power in the security council, it has simply managed to stall the process for 30-odd years. That is the heart of the conflict. It is also probably the heart of our differences of opinion as well. That and the blanket generalization that all Arabs are terrorists who want to wipe out Israel and the US.

As for the UN being anti-Israel, that's an extraordinary claim that will require extraordinary evidence to accept.

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Yerdaddy

04-04-2002, 08:58 PM

I hate arabs for their actions.

I hate to butt in here, but you have never said "suicide bombers are less than human", "Arab extremists are 'less than human'", or even "Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the PLO are less than human." You have said, repeatedly, that all Arabs are "less than human" and should all be killed. It just so happens that you combine it with the theory that they are ALL "less than human. That is, by definition, (regardless of the reasons for your feelings, which I can empathize with), racism. I don't use that term lightly, but HK, I have to call you on that. I won't turn a blind eye to that for anyone.

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HordeKing1

04-04-2002, 09:00 PM

Read the papers, go to some newsgroups that discuss it. I'd imagine you'd find the stuff at the un website as well. The UN has frequently tried to rip Israel a new one. Israel is smart enough to realize that no matter what action it takes it will be condemned by the UN so why worry over another meaningless gathering of anti semetic nations. (Take a look at the sheer number of resolutions condeming Israel for one imagined violation or another.)

And again, it is NOT about land. If it were, this would have been resolved long ago.

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Yerdaddy

04-04-2002, 09:12 PM

Take a look at the sheer number of resolutions condeming Israel for one imagined violation or another.

Imagined? I know the italics brackets didn't apply to the entire quote, but the bulk of my long post was from the US Human Rights Report. "Israeli security forces committed numerous, serious human rights abuses during the year. Security forces killed at least 501 Palestinians and 1 foreign national and injured 6,300 Palestinians and other persons during the year, including innocent bystanders.
This is the official US government report, which, if anything, gives deferrence to it's close ally, Israel. Like it or not, this is a record of real, not imagined, abuses.

I posted the Palestinian abuses as well, so you couldn't claim bias. You can choose to deny that Israel abuses the Palestinian people, but you have to ignore it right there in black and white.

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HordeKing1

04-04-2002, 09:30 PM

These so called "human rights" violations were responses to real human rights violations (murder) perpetrated on Israel by the Arabs.

It's a basic fact that when someone sets out with the specific goal of trying to kill you, you go out and kill him.

Israel should have been the aggressor but it has never done anything but respond in a half assed way. The time to end the Arab menace is NOW.

And yes, all palestinians want to kill all jews. Even , the Arabs such as the Druze that lived among the Israeli's for years, with the same rights, jobs, and economic opportunities have renewed the old arab battle cry of "we will not rest until we drive every jewish man woman and child into the sea."

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Yerdaddy

04-04-2002, 09:43 PM

These so called "human rights" violations were responses to real human rights violations (murder) perpetrated on Israel by the Arabs.

Read it again. There is nothing "so called" about the attacks on Palestinian civilians by the Israeli security forces. It is clearly not a fact that shooting protesters was a response to suicide bombers. It was an escalation, meaning more force than was being used against Israelis; ie. bullets against rock-throwers. The suicide bombings didn't pick up until early this year, after Israeli incursions killed 501 Palestinians, (three times the number of Islraelis).

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Yerdaddy

04-04-2002, 09:52 PM

the Arabs such as the Druze that lived among the Israeli's for years, with the same rights, jobs, and economic opportunities

Read the whole report. It says repeatedly and specifically that Arabs in Israel are not given the same rights and economic opportunity as Jews.

And yes, all palestinians want to kill all jews.

You have still never backed this up with anything other than anecdotes and statements of opinion. Show me something that doesn't require inductive reasoning.

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Save the rainforest - it's where the good shrooms come from.

NewYorkDragons80

04-05-2002, 09:38 AM

Hordeking, you will never hear me argue about the might of the Israeli Defense Forces. They kicked the collective teeth down the throats of Arab agressors and they were the good guys.

Again, the "Palestinian" territory never should have been annexed because its only purpose was to further humiliate Arabs. If we grant them a Palestinian state, they will have no basis for suicide attacks. Therefore, any attacks on Israel that follow would be met with maximum force. Israel has every right to exist, but it's hard to state your case when you tell Palestine they cannot exist. It doesn't help the opinion of undecided nations sway in your favor. Maybe my statements sound a little Disneyland, but that's what I hope is possible through the creation of Palestine.

I'm all for Israel, but they are not some innocent bystander. This is the same country that sells weapons to China, spied on the US, and did not initially support the war on terror.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

NewYorkDragons80

04-05-2002, 09:56 AM

Hordeking, you still haven't answered my question about the Arab-Israelis that fight alongside the Jews because whether or not you acknowledge it they do exist.

For a nation as modernized as Israel, you would think they would have a more sophisticated method of finding those responsible for a bombing than just torching a village. Excuse me, I forgot that Palestinians are not worth as much as us.

We NUKED the Japanese, and we still demonstrated more compassion for them after WWII than the Israelis have shown toward the occupied lands. The occupation of Palestine is bad, but what eclipses the occupation is that they have been left with no way to improve themselves. We occupied Japan and Germany, but now I love my DVD player that was made in Japan. And don't pretend Japanese were considered "civilized" before WWII.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

adolescentmasturbator

04-05-2002, 04:02 PM

Horde I called you an anti-Semite because Arabs are a Semitic people. So the true irony is that their genetics are so close that it's a squabble between genetic cousins.

Anti semites like you and your arab brethren hate jews because they are jews. I hate arabs for their actions. (This means by definition that i am not a racist, something I'm sure passed over your head once again.)

When did I ever say I am an Arab? I am an Iranian which is part of the Indo-European group as Arabs are part of the Semitic group.

And I'm not going to dignify your remarks about being Anti-Jewish. Because for someone who is advocating GENOCIDE of a people it is truely hypocritical to be saying that I am evil and I wish that all Jews wish to die. Try to find one shred of evidence where I have ever supported genocide. However I have many examples just in this thread where you would be pleased at men, women, and children of an entire race dying.

As for the occuping territories what kind of revisionist history is this? The Palestinians were abused by various Arab nations(Jordan, etc.) and had claims to land but you will deny it claiming that they deserve no land as Israel should stretch as far as it can no matter what. Also doesn't Israel refer to it as the Occupied Territories as well? Even Israel states it's occupied.

You try to paint Palestinians as Muslim extremists hell bent on destroying every Jew in the land. The fact is that 20% of Palestinians are Christians and they hate the occupation just as much. In your hysteria of trying to paint an entire people as evil and as monsters you just coming off as a genocidal madman.

adolescentmasturbator

04-05-2002, 04:02 PM

sorry double post

This message was edited by adolescentmasturbator on 4-5-02 @ 8:19 PM

HordeKing1

04-06-2002, 07:10 PM

NYDRAGON - In the past, certain groups of Arabs were in the IDF. Most have deserted or are actively fighting a terrorist war against Israel. In fact a woman from my neighborhood has a brother in a unit with some "good" Arabs. (An oxymoron if there ever was one.) When they deserted they not only stole a bunch of ammunition and weapons, they also sabatoged a bunch of stuff as well. (Firing pins removed from guns, plumbing wrecked (2 points for originality there).

Arafat was and always will be a terrorist. The scary part isn't that he wants to kill all Israelis, Americans and Jews but that he is the "moderate" arab - at least in public.

If there is to be an Arab State, I recomend that it be located on the sun. They can bring sunglasses and go at night. Alternatively, let all the surrounding arab countries who shipped in their refuse to Israel to lay claim to a land they barely ever occupied should absorb them into their population.

But, I repeat, this is not and has never been about land.

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adolescentmasturbator

04-07-2002, 09:32 AM

That's right kids. Remember genocide is ok just as long as you feel the race is inferior.

Meatball

04-07-2002, 10:26 AM

I know its long - but well worth it, ive never read a better description of the issue than this one: 
History Isn't on the Palestinians' Side Arafat's strategy is suicidal in more ways than one. 
BY VICTOR DAVIS HANSON Tuesday, April 2, 2002 12:01 a.m. 
For all the efforts of our contemporary theorists to harness and sometimes refashion history, the facts of the past belong to no one--and won't go away. Those who conjure it up often discover to their dismay that they themselves are subject to its brutal laws of truth. The Palestinians are fast learning of history's ironies and unintended reminders, as they seek to invoke the past to convince Americans of the righteousness of their present plight. Take the idea of the occupation of Arab lands since 1967, which the Palestinians now cite as a singular historical grievance that needs immediate rectification through intervention of the U.S. But sadly occupation and partition are the bastard children of war; and history, rightly or wrongly, is not kind to states that repeatedly attack their neighbors--and lose. 
Ask the millions of poor Germans who had their ancestral lands confiscated by Poland and France--and their country subsequently partitioned for a half century. Why do the Russians still occupy portions of the old Japanese homeland decades after the surrender? How is it that the British won't give up Gibraltar long after their successful battles against the Spanish fleet? And why must the world give far more attention to Palestine than it does to Tibetans, Irish and Chechens? 
The situation on the West Bank is not only commonplace in history's harsh calculus, but prevalent even throughout the Arab world today. Right next door in Lebanon, Syria controls far more Arab land than does Israel. And if Palestinians suffer second-class citizenship under Israeli occupation, they are worse off in occupied Lebanon where, as helots, they are denied basic rights to employment, health care and government services. 
Kuwait ethnically cleansed all Palestinians--perhaps a third of a million--just a decade ago. Well after the 1967 Six Day War, the Jordanians themselves slaughtered thousands. Before the intifada more Palestinians sought work in a hated Israel than in a beloved Egypt. History suggests that there is more going on in Palestine than the morality of occupation. 


The Palestinians have turned to suicide bombers--terrorists boasting of a new and frightening tactic that cannot be stopped. But they should recall the kamikazes off Okinawa that brought death, terror and damage to the American fleet--before prompting horrific responses that put an end to them for good and a lot more besides. In general, the record of terrorist bombers--whether Irish, Basque or Palestinian--who seek to reclaim "occupied" lands is not impressive in winning either material concessions or the hearts and minds of the world.
Palestinian spokesmen decry asymmetrical casualty figures, as if history has ever accorded moral capital to any belligerents that suffered the greater losses in war. Again, ask imperial Japan or Nazi Germany whether the ghosts of millions of their dead today carry moral weight when their governments once sought war against their neighbors.

Deliberately trying to blow apart civilians will never be seen as the moral equivalent of noncombatants dying as a result of the street fighting in the West Bank. Afghans accidentally killed by errant bombing in Kandahar are different from those deliberately incinerated on Sept. 11. Somalis killed in Mogadishu by American peacekeepers--far more civilians dying there in two days than in two years on the West Bank--are not the same as those murdered by thugs in jeeps trying to steal food from the starving.

Americans learned in Vietnam and Mogadishu that it is hard to distinguish civilians from soldiers when gunmen do not always wear uniforms and take potshots from the windows of homes: They are real killers when alive, but somehow count as "civilians" when dead. The problem is not that the Palestinians a

HordeKing1

04-08-2002, 07:24 PM

ADOLESCENT - As usual you completely missed the point even though it was spelled out in black and white. It is not their ethnicity that condems them, it is their actions.

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adolescentmasturbator

04-09-2002, 01:23 PM

I'm not going to say that all Arabs are angels because a lot of them are terrorists. But to condemn an ENTIRE race to death is just morally absurd.

HordeKing1

04-09-2002, 08:43 PM

ADOLESCENT - Trapped in your own misstatements. According to you, Arabs and Jews are both Semites. Thus killing all the arabs for their actions is not genocide as the Jews will continue the Semitic ethnic line.

BTW, when you take a course in genetics you'll learn that ALL humans share 99% of identical DNA. Bonobo chimps have over 98% identical DNA to humans. Most primates including monkeys and great apes have well over 96% shared DNA with humans.

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adolescentmasturbator

04-11-2002, 08:47 PM

Um by your first statement I would assume if we just decided to kill every chinese person on the planet it wouldn't be genocide cause there would still be Asians right? Is that what you are trying to say?

HordeKing1

04-11-2002, 08:57 PM

I used YOUR definition of semite not mine.

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adolescentmasturbator

04-11-2002, 09:08 PM

Um...yeah...it still doesn't change the fact that it is genocide. It's one thing to say Israel must defend itself aganist Arab attacks(which I agree with). But to say hey let's go out and kill every Arab is just beyond evil.

HordeKing1

04-12-2002, 03:58 AM

In an ideal world you'd be right. But in the real world after decades of attack escalating yearly, with no possibility of resolution other than the anihilation of one side or another, Israel has the responsibility to kill those who try to kill her.

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you believe that those clearly, positively identified as actual terrorists should be killed?

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adolescentmasturbator

04-12-2002, 04:46 PM

Yes everyone who has commited an act of terrorism deserves to die. I know where you are going with this, you will say that every Arab is a terrorist and that simply isn't true.

CYYYFYYY

04-12-2002, 09:39 PM

The Saudi Royal family raised over 56 million dollars
for Palestinian families for the "MARTYRS"
INCLUDING SUICIDE BOMBERS!!!!!! So pleas e do
not tell me it is just a few bad Arabs doing these
suicide bombings. Some people gave clothes,
jewelry. Also Just in case you don't know Saddam
Hussein rewards families of these suicide bombers
$25,000 dollars.... Yep I guess it is just a few bad
ones........

David the Franchize
Everyone Loves CYYYFYYY
My name is CYYYFYYY and I like Ping Pong

NewYorkDragons80

04-13-2002, 03:35 AM

Israel has every right to go after terrorists, but I have never heard of the Legislative branch of the Israeli government OK-ing military action, or a trial for these terrorists. Israel's retaliations are "Jack Ruby" killings that may be justified, but take credibility from Israel's claim that it is a free nation built on justice.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

adolescentmasturbator

04-13-2002, 08:48 AM

Did I ever say Arab governments are good? Most arab governments are corrupt and immoral(like most governments for that matter) and it's certainly inexcusable for Saudi Arabia and Iraq to do that. But that doesn't give anybody a right to decimate every Arab because of that.

CYYYFYYY

04-13-2002, 01:43 PM

First off i never said you said anything.... Second if
the Govenmenrt and the PEOPLE are donating
money to these HOMICIDE bombers... not just the
goverment.... I am not saying all arabs are bad but
in supposedlt a poor country to raise 56 million
dollars that says something very
important...........

David the Franchize
Everyone Loves CYYYFYYY
My name is CYYYFYYY and I like Ping Pong

HordeKing1

04-13-2002, 05:12 PM

ADOLESCENT - You agree that terrorists must die. You disagree that everyone is a terrorist.

As the man told the prostitute, "we've established the principle, we're just haggling over the price."

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HordeKing1

04-13-2002, 05:14 PM

Regarding the "Martyrthon" 56 million was raised with an hour yet to go in the program. Thus more than 56 million was raised by the Arabs to encourage sucidie bombers. In a country where most save the royal family are dirt poor, the amount of money raised was especially frightful as it shows the overwhelming support of the entire arab population for the suicide bombers.

Are all Arabs guilty. The evidence is quite clear that they, like the German before them are indeed all culpable.

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adolescentmasturbator

04-13-2002, 08:06 PM

The problem with Saudi Arabia is there a massive concetration of wealth in the hands of a tiny elite.

Are many Arabs sympathetic to the terrorist cause? Yes I would suppose yes. However killing them just because they support terrorism isn't right either. Let's put it this way. Nazi Germany, and Fascist Italy in the 30s. They were mostly supported by the vast majority of people. However killing all Germans and Italians would have been wrong since you can't kill someone for their ideology. Punish people for actions not thoughts.

CYYYFYYY

04-13-2002, 10:59 PM

Ah i see when you donmtae money to killers we
should just ignore it.... anyone who says tthat crap
is a racisit!!!!!! I am sorry buit If I donated money
to a group that supported Killers and racists that
would make me a bastard and I should be killed....
Oh yes we should close our eyes and ignore this...
that is a very good Idea... we did this with a littl guy
name Hitler..... Oh yes if we stopped him sooner
maybe when you said Hitler we would say who the
heck is he.......... Well enbough of this crap blow
them up.....

David the Franchize
Everyone Loves CYYYFYYY
My name is CYYYFYYY and I like Ping Pong

NewYorkDragons80

04-14-2002, 07:27 AM

Hordeking, that isn't entirely true. In Saudi Arabia and Kuwait (These are just the ones I am familiar with,) citizens are given tens of thousands of dollars when they are born and given an additional sum of money ($70K?) when they turn 18. I'm not exactly sure of the numbers but they are very high. I would assume that Oman and Qatar and any other oil-rich Arab nation have similar systems. Like Ice Cube said in the movie Three Kings, "Kuwait is the Beverly Hills of the Middle East."

Those that are poor either pissed their money away or do not get this money from the government for whatever reason. I also know that the overwhelming majority of people in these countries do get money and it isn't just for the privileged.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

HordeKing1

04-14-2002, 09:15 AM

NEWYORKDRAGON - Where did you get that information from? The Netherlands is the country with the most egalitarian and comprehensive social welfare state to which all others are compared. (The US is about in the middle, Nigeria was the lowest).

Are you claiming that Saudi Arabia gives thousands of dollars at birth to each citizen and 75,000 upon turning 18, to each citizen? That doesn't seem plauseable, and it's not an efficient method of social welfare in any case. Interestingly, Saudi Arabia is one of the few countries in the world for which no poverty figures are provided to the WHO.

Here are some links pointing to the overwhelming poverty in the region.

http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:ZL6hRcpHducC:www.dailystar.com.lb/07_03_02/art17.htm+poverty+in+arab+countries&hl=en

http://www.afgha.com/viewtopic.php?topic=502&forum=7

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