Crash Course on the Arab Israeli Conflict [Archive]

HordeKing1

04-08-2002, 07:44 PM

The real facts undistorted by Arab propaganda and lies.

Netanyahu was recently interviewed about Israel's "occupation" of Arab lands -- his response was "It's our land."

1. Israel became a nation in 1312 BC, two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two DECADES after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Old Testament and not once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 30,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

17. The U.N was silent while the Jordanians destroyed 58 Jerusalem Synagogues. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

These are the facts. Arab lies cannot change them.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

Gvac

04-09-2002, 02:17 AM

Very nice job, HK. Hopefully, this latest round of violence will inspire some young Americans to actually learn a little bit about foreign affairs and not utter such ignorant statements such as "let them all kill each other" and the like.

Anyone out there who thinks this is merely about the Palestinians getting their own state is fooling themselves. The Arab nations have stated on many occasions that they will not rest until they have completely destroyed Israel. They will NEVER recognize a Jewish state, and their pleas for a "homeland" are merely their way of saying they'd like to eradicate Jews from the face of the Earth.

Israel has every right to protect itself and to abolish terrorism, just as we do.

<img src=http://gvac.50megs.com/images/tjasig.jpg>

DarkHippie

04-09-2002, 06:42 AM

The real facts undistorted by Arab propaganda and lies.

HK, please, before you go and accuse someone else of using propaganda and lies, check your own words and facts:
The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years are you sure, because i'm pretty sure that they controlled from the India borders to the straights of gibralter to Istanbul (not constantinople) until 1918

Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

i don't know what point you're trying to make here, other than a "we want it more." but this is misleading. muslims pray toward Mecca, they do not pray with their back toward jerusulem. you are purposing trying to mislead your readers by outright lying to them.

Since the Jewish conquest the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
the jews have had a presence in every land (until they get kicked out) that is why its called the diaspora. You make it sound like they have dominated israel all of this time, when in truth, they survived in small communites under the romans, the byzantines, the arabs, the crusaders, the arabs, and the imperialsists

These are the facts. Arab lies cannot change them
but you have.

<IMG SRC=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/inkgrrrl99/images/hippiesig.gif>
compliments to inkgrrrl on the fine, fine work
support your local 420: union of brotherhood

living on the road, my friend, was supposed to keep us free and clean.
now you wear you skin like iron, your breath's as hard as kerosene-- townes van zant "the ballad of poncho and lefty"

<a href=http://www.freeopendiary.com/entrylist.asp?authorcode=A537085>Transcendental Blues: a journal</a>

DarkHippie

04-09-2002, 06:59 AM

sorry, double post
<IMG SRC=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/inkgrrrl99/images/hippiesig.gif>
compliments to inkgrrrl on the fine, fine work
support your local 420: union of brotherhood

living on the road, my friend, was supposed to keep us free and clean.
now you wear you skin like iron, your breath's as hard as kerosene-- townes van zant "the ballad of poncho and lefty"

<a href=http://www.freeopendiary.com/entrylist.asp?authorcode=A537085>Transcendental Blues: a journal</a>

This message was edited by DarkHippie on 4-9-02 @ 11:04 AM

furie

04-09-2002, 07:26 AM

C.E.?

I hate that. It's so PC.

If your going to use BC then use it's counterpart AD.

The truth is a three edged sword. Their side, the other side, and the truth somewhere in the middle.

You're only represnting one side and calling that a crash course on the conflict, impling that there's no other side to it; no other valid issues.

I'm on neither side, and ultimatly, i don't care all that much about the conflict.
I don't know why

<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/Surfer3.jpg" width=300 height=100 >
AIM:furie1335

This message was edited by furie on 4-9-02 @ 12:11 PM

seagullbeagle

04-09-2002, 07:57 AM

The establishment of the state of Israel and the war that followed resulted in hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fleeing, or being forced out, of their homes in mandate Palestine and what was to be Israel.

Despite a U.N. resolution recognizing the Palestinians' right to return to their homes, Israeli law barred those Palestinians from re-entering Israel at the end of the war. The Palestinians became refugees, taken in by other Arab states.

The United Nations established the U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees in the Near East to help care for those Palestinians. More than 3.7 million Palestinians -- the refugees and their descendants -- are registered with the agency in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza.

More than 1 million of those refugees live in 59 U.N.-operated refugee camps -- 27 of them in the West Bank and Gaza. Almost half of the roughly 3 million Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza are refugees, and more than 600,000 of them live in the camps. Gaza's population has particularly increased: U.N. figures indicate 824,000 out of 1.1 million are refugees.

Jordan hosts the most refugees -- about 1.6 million, of which 280,000 live in 10 camps. Another 376,000 live in Lebanon, with 210,000 of those living in 12 camps. And in Syria, 112,000 of the country's 383,000 refugees live in 10 camps.

Al-Awda -- the Palestinian Right of Return Coalition -- says there are an additional 2 million refugees unregistered and living in other neighboring countries, but those refugees are not directly covered by U.N. resolutions and programs.

Israeli viewpoint
Israeli leaders have held the position that the right of return is nonnegotiable. It would create a demographic problem for Israel, making it unable to continue as a Jewish state. Israel has suggested it would accept a proposal for some 10,000 Palestinian refugees to rejoin their families inside Israel as a "humanitarian gesture" and financial compensation for refugees, to be funded by Western donors.

Palestinian viewpoint
The displacement of Palestinians cuts to the core of Palestinian national identity. Many Palestinians say their right to return goes beyond the U.N. resolution, stemming from a right of a people to live in their homeland. For Palestinians, it's a matter of principle and historical reproachment -- Israel acknowledging the wrongs it has caused to the Palestinian people.

This is from CNN.com a reputable news source which reports both sides of this story.

<IMG SRC="http://www.seagullbeagle.50megs.com/images/rfnetseagullbeagle.jpg">
thanks to wwfallon and inkgrrrl
"Preserverance Against All Opposition,Crushing All Limitations, Pure Strength Through Solitude,Discipline, and Determination"HATEBREED

This message was edited by seagullbeagle on 4-9-02 @ 12:00 PM

Meatball

04-09-2002, 08:23 AM

The following is an excerpt of a live radio broadcast heard on Palestinian radio by a leader of the PA.

"None of the Jews refrain from committing any possible evil. If the Labor party commits the evil and the crime, the Likud party stands by it; and if the Likud party commits the evil and the crime, the Labor party stands by it? The Jews are Jews, whether Labor or Likud? They do not have any moderates or any advocates of peace. They are all liars. They all want to distort truth, but we are in possession of the truth.

"O brother believers, the criminals, the terrorists are the Jews, who have butchered our children, orphaned them, widowed our women and desecrated our holy places and sacred sites. They are the terrorists. They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: "Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them, and will relieve the minds of the believers?

"O brothers in belief, this is the case of the Jews and their habitual conduct, and what happened yesterday, and has been going on for two weeks, and before that for many years, and which will be repeated in future years unless we stand up like men and unless we have the known Muslim position, [the position] of those who wage Jihad in the path of Allah, those who defend their rights and who sacrifice all that is dear to them.

"O brothers in belief, the beautiful bride has a costly price and dowry? Our bride is paradise, O brothers in belief. The cost and the dowry of this bride, the dowry of this paradise, is that we fight in the path of Allah, and kill and be killed.

"Allah has purchased from the believers their persons and their property in return for the promise that they shall have paradise, for they fight in the cause of Allah, and they slay the enemy and are slain. This is a promise that He [Allah] has made incumbent upon Himself, as set out in the Torah, and Gospel and the Koran.

"We say to the Jews, and we say to Clinton, and we say to all those who supported the Jews and still cooperate with the Jews, we say to them, that this will not shake us, we are the Palestinian people, who are positioned in the land of the Isra' and Mi'raj. It will not shake a single hair of ours. Our determination will not sway. We will raise the banner of Jihad?

"America and Europe and the world were shocked by the kidnapping of three tramps, the kidnapping of three wretched soldiers, and the killing of two in Ramallah. But their feelings were not moved, and they did not shudder when they say the children Muhammad ad-Durrah and other women, and men, and youths -- being martyred by cannons and missiles, and all the barbaric instruments and the Jews possess
They were moved, for the sake of five persons, and the world went into turmoil and it will not stop for Clinton or for the old hag Albright, they will not be relieved, and they will not cease to be concerned, and they will not rest until the Jews return to their families. But as for the Palestinians, as for this pure blood, it can go to Hell in the eyes of the Americans and Europe and the Jews.

"This is the truth, O Brothers in belief. From here, Allah and almighty has called upon us not to ally with the Jews or the Christians, not to like them, not to become their partners, not to support them, and not to sign agreements with them. And he who does that, is one of them, as Allah said: "O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies, for they are allies of one another. Who from among you takes them as allies will indeed be one of them.

"The Jews are the allies of the Christians, and the Christians are the allies of the Jews, despite the enmity that exists between them. The enmity between the Jews and the Christians is deep, but all of them are in agreement against the monotheists -- against those who say, 'There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger,' that is they are against you, O Muslims."

"Even if an agreement of Gaza is signed -- we shall not forget Haifa, and Acre, and

sweetypie

04-09-2002, 08:35 AM

Nearly every dispatch from the Middle East lacks basic context. Here are some of the facts to keep in mind when reading these flawed reports.
-----------------

Imagine for a moment that all reporting about the U.S. war on terrorism was presented without reference to September 11. American attacks from the air using B-52s and F-16s against fighters armed with smaller weapons would seem quite disproportionate. Our stated intention to kill as many members of al Qaeda as possible might be condemned, by our own State Department as "excessive" and "contributing to the cycle of violence."

But U.S. actions are never presented that way, because everyone acknowledges that we have the perfect right to defend ourselves against those who have done us grave harm. Nor are we asked to sit by and wait for our enemies to do us even more catastrophic damage if they get the chance.

But when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the context is removed. Bleeding Israel is daily exhorted to stop contributing the cycle of violence. Her teenagers are blown to bits at discotheques. Her babies are approached outside a synagogue by a suicide bomber who waits until he is next to the strollers before blowing himself apart. Her adolescent boys who wander off in the desert and get lost are torn to pieces. And all this is applauded and celebrated by Yasser Arafat and most of the Arab governments in the region.

Some Arabs (those among the minority who acknowledge that Arabs are responsible) condemned the bombing of the World Trade Center. But not a single Islamic scholar or cleric has condemned the systematic policy of blowing up Israeli civilians. Israelis are demoralized and terrified. Restaurants and shops are nearly empty. And alone among nations apparently, Israel is not permitted to engage in simple self-defense.

Nearly every dispatch from the Middle East lacks basic context. Here are some of the facts to keep in mind when reading these flawed reports.

The Palestine Liberation Organization was not formed in order to secure a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza. It was created in 1964, when both territories were under Arab sovereignty. Jordan and Egypt did not create a state for the Palestinians because they preferred to keep the refugees angry and homeless.

It is not "Palestinian land." There has never been an independent Palestinian state on the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River. The area -- which always contained Arabs and Jews -- was under Ottoman control for several hundred years until World War I, then British control under the League of Nations Mandate and finally under United Nations control.

The United Nations approved a partition plan in 1947 that would have created two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jews accepted this arrangement. The Arabs refused. Five Arab armies invaded the new state of Israel. In the ensuing war, thousands of refugees fled. Jews fled Arab nations for Israel, and Arabs fled Israel for Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon. The Jewish refugees became full citizens of Israel. The Palestinian refugees became pawns. Israel came into possession of the West Bank and Gaza only because she was attacked again by five Arab armies in 1967.

If the Palestinians are fighting for a state on the West Bank and Gaza, why do their maps show Palestine as filling the entire territory that is now Israel? Why do they marinate their people in Hitlerian anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism? Further, why -- when Ehud Barak offered just such a state, or 95 percent of it -- did Mr. Arafat walk away and start this latest round of violence? Palestinian spokesmen say it wasn't everything they wanted. But if they truly want a separate state on so-called "occupied territory," why did Mr. Barak's offer not form the basis for further talks?

The Palestinians are said to be chafing under the "occupation." But in obedience to the Oslo process, Israel has given administrative authority over 98 percent of the Palestinians in the disputed territories to Mr. Arafat. Israel has further permitted the Pal

sweetypie

04-09-2002, 08:49 AM

seagulbeagle...like most Americans, you have the facts wrong regarding the palestinain refugees..Allow me to shed some light:

---------------

The issue of Palestinians refugees is a sticking point in the peace negotiations. But who is responsible for these refugees?

In the 1948 war, 600,000 Jewish refugees were expelled from Arab lands including Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco -- leaving behind an estimated $30 billion in assets. These Jewish refugees were welcomed by Israel, and with their 2 million descendants, they now comprise a majority population of the State of Israel.

In the same war, an equal number of Palestinians refugees fled to Arab countries, primarily Jordan and Egypt. From 1948-67, these refugees were left in squalid camps by their host society, Jordan and Egypt. The United Nations estimates that they and their descendents now number about 3.7 million -- living in the West Bank and Gaza, Lebanon, Jordan, and throughout the Western World.

Yasser Arafat demands the "right of return" for all 3.7 million Palestinians to within the borders of the State of Israel.

Israel maintains that these refugees primarily left of their own accord, and that Palestinian demands that these refugees be absorbed into the State of Israel is just a political move to destroy the Jewish state through demographics.

In the Gaza Strip today, 420,000 Palestinians still live in squalid refugee camps, under full jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority.

Who is responsible for these refugees?

IN THEIR OWN WORDS

Did Israel forcibly evict these 600,000 Arabs from their homes in 1948? Or did they leave voluntarily? This is the salient question.

Here is a collection of historical quotations from Arab leaders, relating to these Palestinian refugees:

On April 23, 1948 Jamal Husseini, acting chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee (AHC), told the UN Security Council:

"The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce... They preferred to abandon their homes, belongings and everything they possessed."

On September 6, 1948, the Beirut Daily Telegraph quoted Emil Ghory, secretary of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee, as saying:

"The fact that there are those refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agreed upon this policy unanimously..."

On October 2, 1948, the London Economist reported, in an eyewitness account of the flight of Haifa's Arabs:

"There is little doubt that the most potent of the factors [in the flight] were the announcements made over the air by the Arab Higher Executive urging all Arabs in Haifa to quit... And it was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."

The Jordanian daily Falastin wrote on February 19, 1949:

"The Arab states... encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies."

On June 8, 1951, Habib Issa, secretary-general of the Arab League, wrote in the New York Lebanese daily al-Hoda that in 1948, Azzam Pasha, then League secretary, had...

"...assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade... Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property, and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states."

On April 9, 1953, the Jordanian daily al-Urdun quoted a refugee, Yunes Ahmed Assad, formerly of Deir Yassin, as saying:

"For the flight and fall of the other villages, it is our leaders who are responsible, because of the dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs... they instilled fear and terror into the hearts of the Arabs of Palestine until they fled, leaving their homes and property to the enemy."

Another refugee told the Jordanian daily a-Difaa on September 6, 1954: "The Arab governments

04-09-2002, 11:38 AM

HK... a Crash Course????

There better not be a Pop Quiz...

<img src="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/bans/Elle.jpg">

science!

04-09-2002, 11:50 AM

How this thread hasn't been killed and erased is beyond me...Somehow, when we make fun of each other or call a girl a slut...thread is dead...but talk about a international conflict that really has been going on for thousands of years and produces an anger that is deep seeded and generationally rooted...well that thread can continue for months....
The fact is that this war is not likely to end for a long time...there was a chance that the new generation of Isrealis and Palestinians would be willing to negotiate given that they have not been so hardened by war...but those who prefer destruction and annialation (from BOTH sides) have won and the conflict continues. This will not be solved on the RFmessage board and I suggest to the mods to end it before this gets nasty

See Ya!

furie

04-09-2002, 12:11 PM

How this thread hasn't been killed and erased is beyond me...Somehow, when we make fun of each other or call a girl a slut...thread is dead...but talk about a international conflict that really has been going on for thousands of years and produces an anger that is deep seeded and generationally rooted...well that thread can continue for months....

Because this is an intellectual discussion. Some good points are being brought up, and there is the opportunity for people to learn, if they want to. Where's the merit in simply calling someone a slut? How does that discussion contribute? Plus those kinds of threads are personal attacks. No one's character has been assassinated here.

just my opinion, only a Mod can truly answer why. They do move in mysterious ways.

<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/Surfer3.jpg" width=300 height=100 >
AIM:furie1335

seagullbeagle

04-09-2002, 12:14 PM

seagulbeagle...like most Americans, you have the facts wrong regarding the palestinain refugees..Allow me to shed some light: hey man i just copied that from cnn.com, so call up one of the world's largest news agencies and shed some light on them. I wrote on the bottom of my post where i got it from.My only point was that there is many points of view here.I wasn't stating my own.

<IMG SRC="http://www.seagullbeagle.50megs.com/images/rfnetseagullbeagle.jpg">
thanks to wwfallon and inkgrrrl
"Preserverance Against All Opposition,Crushing All Limitations, Pure Strength Through Solitude,Discipline, and Determination"HATEBREED

This message was edited by seagullbeagle on 4-9-02 @ 4:18 PM

adolescentmasturbator

04-09-2002, 01:41 PM

Some of the statements are true. Some are blatant lies. 
2. Are you serious? Only began identifying themselves in 67? The PLO was established in 64 but of course the P had to stand for Pussy or something like that. 
9. That is also a lie. This has been thoroughly debunked. In fact people were being told to stay but yet they had to leave since they were in the middle of a war zone. 
10. I agree Arab treatement of Jews was absolutely despicable. 
13. It is misleading to label them all as Arabs. Since an Arab in Morroco is vastly different than one in Egypt. The only true Arabs I suppose you would find in the Arabian Peninsula. The only reason they call them all Arabs is because they speak Arabic which is the biggest thing they have in common culturally(besides Islam). 
I also think that what the Jordanians did to the Israelis and Palestinians was abombinable. 
You have to realize that both sides in this conflict have done a lot of terrible things. That fact is truly unavoidable.

science!

04-09-2002, 02:46 PM

Because this is an intellectual discussion

The real facts undistorted by Arab propaganda and lies.
These are the facts. Arab lies cannot change them.

seagulbeagle...like most Americans, you have the facts wrong regarding the palestinain refugees..Allow me to shed some light

The PLO was established in 64 but of course the P had to stand for Pussy or something like that

intelligent...does that mean smart or something?

See Ya!

RusticSoul

04-09-2002, 03:04 PM

There is no afterlife so why r we fighting. when we die nothing happens except we turn to worm food Our goverment wouldnt care about the middle east except for the jewish vote and the arab oil Its time to close our borders and let these nations stand up for themselves. Let them wipe each other out, the world is too populated as it is.

Noellevious

04-09-2002, 03:37 PM

Thanks, Horde. I was researching this myself a week or two b/c I wanted to get my facts straight on the...er, hullabaloo, and I did notice that by the time I'd found anything that would give me some good info, I had seen so much anti Semitic bull (human blood being used in Passover pastry, etc.) that I was almost sick.

<IMG SRC="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/tojo00/noellevious-new.jpg">

"I dig amputee chicks." - Ron
<marquee behavior=alternate>
Noelle Y's the Rooster! </marquee behavior=alternate>

This message was edited by Noellevious on 4-9-02 @ 7:49 PM

NewYorkDragons80

04-09-2002, 03:41 PM

Hordeking, I recently read an article in US News & World Report. Basically it said that there is no proof that Jews ever controlled the Holy Land. The only historical claim is in the Bible, a book that (judging from other posts) you don't seem to be a very big fan of.

It's hard finding a good guy in this, but if I had to pick, I'd go with Israel.

Like I've said before I have a place in my heart for Palestine because I am an Irish Catholic. Unfortunately, they feel there is no better way to be heard than by using violence (against America of all places!) If they had used the same methods as Mandella or Ghandi, they would be free right now, just like my Irish brothers and sisters should be.

Just because the UN favors Palestine doesn't make them anti-Semites. Maybe Israel is wrong sometimes, crazy as it sounds. Don't say that about the UN. There really are anti-Semites out there and you accusing the UN of this trivializes your cause. Don't be an apologist, you're better than that.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

HordeKing1

04-09-2002, 08:26 PM

Some really interesting responses to this thread.

SCIENCE - As a mod, I do indeed move in "mysterious ways."

DARKHIPPIE - You've got your facts wrong.

FURIE - Why did I write CE? Very strange as I almost never use that term. I'll have some new stuff to discuss with my analyst next week.

ADOLESCENT - Dead wrong as usual, but it interesting that you only argue two or three points of 17. They are all accurate. I find your earlier post that killing an entire race is unconscionable. Yet by your definition of semite (an archaic definition that has not been in common use for hundreds of years), killing every single murderous arab dog wouldn't be genocide, as Jews are semites and therefore the race is intact. Only those who have proven themselves less than animals, i.e. every Arab has to die. Per your definition, it's not genocide).

NYDRAGON - The UN is a political body made up of member nations. You don't have to look far to see the extraordinary amount of violent antisemitism around the world. The UN is very anti-semetic. Take a look at the figures again cited in point 16. I'll put it here in terms of percentages: 55% of Security Council resolutions condemed Israel. 62% of General Assembly resolutions condemed Israel. You'd think there would be more worldwide problems than a tiny country smaller than the state of NJ. The sheer numbers point to the anti-semitism prevelent in the UN and in the nations they represent.

EDIT: RUSTICSOUL - Of course there is no afterlife. That's why the murder by arabs of jews and americans is so horrid. It only emphasizes the need to kill the arabs before they murder more people. Once you die, you're not in a position to care one way or another. The only solution is to respond to deadly force with greater deadly force so that your aggressor can never threaten any lives ever again - becasue they are dead.

ALL THE REST - It's wonderful to see that there are so many who get it. The greatest threat to the palestinian lies and propeganda and plain old bullshit is the truth and open discussion.

I'm sure the usual suspects will post with information allegedly refuting mine. Their opinions cannot be changed. I'm not writing for them. (I find their arguements pathetically sad, w/a trace of comic melencholy). It is to the people who know the truth and more importantly to the people who wish to learn the truth that I write.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

This message was edited by HordeKing1 on 4-10-02 @ 12:49 AM

science!

04-10-2002, 06:25 AM

I had seen so much anti Semitic bull (human blood being used in Passover pastry, etc.) that I was almost sick.

Ahh...what's a discussion about Isreal without the term anti-semite being thrown around. I knew it would pop up sooner or later.
The use of this term is very disturbing to me. Why can't people be critcal of Isreal and Jewish people without being labeled anti-semetic? Speaking for myself, I'm not anti-anything. However, I do believe that there are two sides to this story and given that Isreal clearly has stronger military might, they should be the ones to show a little more constraint.
Further, where is this palestian propaganda coming from? I do not see Kalam Hamir Mousha Abdu (for those taking this post serious...I made the name up) writing about this war. Instead I looked in todays paper(DailyNews) ..thinking about this thread and I am reading articles by
Corky Siemaszko
Ken Bazinet
Richard Sisk
Zev Leferts
David Horovitz
Now I am not a name scholar but those seem like Jewish American names to me. I am sure if I read other papers it would be more of the same. I am not saying that these reporters are twisting the news to favor the viewpoint of thier Jewish brothers but I would find it hard to belive if they didn't write with at least a little bias. I know if I wrote a story about Spain, I would find it hard to criticise that country even though I am American (my dad is from Spain and therefore I still have roots there). While I am on the topic of Spain, how come the NY Times has labeled the Basque group ETA as freedom fighters? They use the same tatics that Palestinians do, yet they are not terrorists. The Spanish government has had to deal with them for a long time and no matter what, it seems that their attacks do not end. My point is that there are many layers to this issue and we should have a more open mind to problems that both sides face and try as hard as possible to make a peaceful resolution rather than destroy each other. I do not believe in killing, even for a just cause...this is hard to practice, but peoples lives and families are at stake. I would think that if there were a people that have learned the horrors of hatered and discrimination it would be the Jewish people. They have seen much suffering, and it seem ironic that there are people within that group that are willing to bring suffering to others.

See Ya!

This message was edited by science! on 4-10-02 @ 10:28 AM

HordeKing1

04-10-2002, 06:29 AM

Hopefully the Jews and Israeli's have learned that the only way to counter violence is with violence in kind.

EDIT: And has been pointed out repeatedly, this whole middle east thing is not about land, it's about killing jews. More religiously fueled wackyness.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

This message was edited by HordeKing1 on 4-10-02 @ 10:35 AM

science!

04-10-2002, 07:03 AM

I feel it is sad that you believe that. Hopefully, there are others who have a different opinion.

See Ya!

NewYorkDragons80

04-10-2002, 02:46 PM

If the UN is irrelevant in your eyes, then what is left to police the world? Israel has no authority to answer to but God (so as far as you are concerned, there is no authority Israel answers to.)

Hordeking, why did Israel occupy Palestine? I just want to know. We all know Israel won the 6-day war, but what justified taking that land?

This may not be directly about land, but if a Palestinian state is established, it could begin a dialogue between Israel and Palestine. There may be a signifigant number of Palestinians who hate Jews, but I'm sure there were a lot of Jordanians and Egyptians that felt the same way. Today, Jordan and Egypt are some of Israel's closest friends (If Israel has any in that region.)

Maybe I'm Disneyland, but I think there are better ways to end this than genocide. Hordeking I hope you are wrong, for humanity's sake.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

science!

04-10-2002, 03:18 PM

HK
the more I read your posts the more I think you have problems...it is your type of thinking that continues this war. I don't know if you are Jewish or not. But if you are, than you are the same type that has led to the death of Rabin, the only PM who seriously tried to make peace, only to be killed by his own people. The same type who the UN condemns. Not because there is an anti-semitic conspiracy, but because Isreal is reacting in a manner that is way too harsh. Some jews have come to the conclusion that everyone hates them, therefore Jews should kill everyone else before they're killed themselves...this is maybe a bit extreme, but I have a feeling that this type of thinking exists within the jewish population. If you dont believe me, then watch channel 55 (I think) on wednesday night, and listen to some crazy Jewish Task Force show...I swear it's like the Jewish KKK.

See Ya!

HordeKing1

04-10-2002, 03:35 PM

SCIENCE - Your ignorance could fill volumes, if only you could read them.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

HordeKing1

04-10-2002, 03:37 PM

I don't recall who asked this absolutely ridiculous question about media bias - eveidently, this person either doesn't watch or read TV or the papers or more likely doesn't understand them.

Consider this well written letter to the editor in the NY Times.

To The Editor;

This morning I got up a bit earlier, and I picked up my Times @ 6AM. I knew about the 13 Jewish Soldiers killed yesterday in J'enin, but not about the suicide bomb on a bus in Haifa that killed 8 and counting.

Then I read the plethora of articles about the Middle East. There was a long article about the terrible situation of potential terrorists who were photographed in their shorts, as if posing for a Calving Klein ad. All your articles were in the same slanted vein. Your photographs were even more tilted. But not a word about the murder on the Bus.

It was so skewed anti Israel, in a Streicher fashion, that it brought to mind an item I read in Deborah Lipstadt's book on the press during the Holocaust. She relates that Hillel Cook met the NY Times Washington Bureau chief at the time, Arthur Krock and asked him why he deliberately represses the Nazi Genocide and does not give it coverage. "Isn't this 'news fit to print' "? he asked him. After some hemming and hawing, Hillel got angry and accused him of being AntiSemitic. "Maybe I am" was his answer.

Recently when the NYTimes celebrated an anniversary, you gave a public apology about your Holocaust reporting . But now you are doing the same thing. By hewing the Genocidal Hamas line, and through moral equivalency, you, one of the most powerful voices in the media today, are indirectly killing Jews.

A powerful phrase uttered during the McCarthy era is very appropriate and should be paraphrased, re your news coverage of the current targeted genocide against Israeli civilians: "Have you no sense of decency?!"

Saul Klein
Brooklyn, New York

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

science!

04-10-2002, 03:37 PM

HK
please teach me then. What have I said that is so ignorant? The only ignorance has come from your posts..in which you say kill the palestinians because they are filled with hate and are not good enough to live. I have not said anything other than for Isreal to show restraint. I have not said anything other than Jews have religious fanatics on their side as well. I have not said anything other than look at both sides of the story before you go out pointing fingers. You say I'm ignorant..but I say I'm being intelligent. I DO NOT AGREE with palistinians. I believe if they want peace they should cut the shit...at the same time I DO NOT AGREE with Isrealies. If they want peace, pull out the tanks, stop the settlements, and show some restraint that a powerful nation should.

See Ya!

science!

04-10-2002, 03:57 PM

HK
please tell me that this "well-written" letter did not try to imply that the NY Times is not only biased in an anti-semitic slant, but is also has tried to "glamorize" suicide bombings by showing palestinians in shorts likea Calvin Klein ad? I simply do not know how to answer your posts beacuse clearly it's gone off the deep end.

P.S. I wrote about the media bias. I did not say it was blatant, but I do think that it is there. For your information, I do read the newspaper, and I even watch the news (even Fox news). I think it would be foolish to say that the Palestinians have a better shot at presenting their side of the war than Jewish people do in this country.

This message was edited by science! on 4-10-02 @ 8:13 PM

HordeKing1

04-10-2002, 04:45 PM

SCIENCE! - How ironic that a youngster with a screen name of science can be so obtuse.

I don't believe you capable of understanding this. Go back to playing with wooden blocks. Just remember not to sail over the horizon, or you'll fall off the edge of the world.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

DarkHippie

04-10-2002, 05:02 PM

Horde King, I am shocked and appalled at the way you are reply to any argument that does not agree with your opinion. yOu have done nothing but demean people trying to present their opinions: intellegent opinions. You call them ignorant, you call them children, you say that they will never understand. You try to take a superior stand with left handed comments and downright insults that would lock any other thread, but since this is your domain, you get away with it. You crossed the line a long time ago between intelligent conversation and personal attacks.

If you want to agrue, fine, but don't be calling people ignorant and childish. Let's leave that kind of hatred in Israel and Palestine. Do you think you can handle that?

<IMG SRC=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/inkgrrrl99/images/hippiesig.gif>
compliments to inkgrrrl on the fine, fine work
support your local 420: union of brotherhood

living on the road, my friend, was supposed to keep us free and clean.
now you wear you skin like iron, your breath's as hard as kerosene-- townes van zant "the ballad of poncho and lefty"

<a href=http://www.freeopendiary.com/entrylist.asp?authorcode=A537085>Transcendental Blues: a journal</a>

seagullbeagle

04-10-2002, 05:11 PM

Argumentum ad hominem,
Argumentum ad nauseam.
and you attacked poor science in another post...
I don't recall who asked this absolutely ridiculous question about media bias - eveidently, this person either doesn't watch or read TV or the papers or more likely doesn't understand them.

Fairness and Accuracy in reporting dosent seem to agree with you.
http://www.fair.org/activism/network-retaliation.html
<IMG SRC="http://www.seagullbeagle.50megs.com/images/rfnetseagullbeagle.jpg">
thanks to wwfallon and inkgrrrl
"Preserverance Against All Opposition,Crushing All Limitations, Pure Strength Through Solitude,Discipline, and Determination"HATEBREED

This message was edited by seagullbeagle on 4-10-02 @ 11:07 PM

science!

04-10-2002, 07:18 PM

Like I said many posts ago, this thread should be killed because it will just lead to anger. Hordeking... I don't know why you are attacking me, but I find it humorous. Obviously, you are incapable of having an adult discussion on a very serious subject.

It doesn't stop. It never stops! Do you understand me? Or am I being obtuse?

Name the movie, win a prize

See Ya!

This message was edited by science! on 4-10-02 @ 11:44 PM

Meatball

04-10-2002, 07:58 PM

To anyone interested in getting the facts on the Middle East issue. Answers with some opinion but mostly documented statistical information please address all your question here -

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/

while some of you will say " a biased jewish site" that is simply untrue. If you are what you claim to be..someone who simply wants to understand, what difference does it make who provides you with the facts?

I consider this the Ultimate source of Information. Unfortunatly most people will not be able to handle the truth, we hate to see the 'underdog' looking foolish. It goes against our basic human nature. Try anyhow.

Se7en

04-10-2002, 08:08 PM

The same type who the UN condemns. Not because there is an anti-semitic conspiracy, but because Isreal is reacting in a manner that is way too harsh.

This is the line of thinking which I love so much.

It makes me wish for the more Draconian days of centuries past.

Let's see.....Israel is facing an enemy who will never accept peace as an answer. If you do not agree with that statement, I urge you to look in your history books, because Palestine has had NUMEROUS opportunities and peace plans to end the violence, and they've turned them all down.

Israel is facing a culture that will not be satisfied until the Jews are all destroyed, and yet when they retaliate, we look at them and shout, "Hey! You're not playing nice!"

I just love this fanciful idea that Israel should show some sort of restraint. I wouldn't if I was in their position.

<img border="0" src="http://Se7enRFNet.homestead.com/files/RFnetSe7en3.jpg" width="300" height="100">

WWFallon - a sig-pic-making jar of Human Clay

"Being a bastard WORKS."
--Spider Jerusalem

Poison Ivy

04-10-2002, 10:30 PM

I read this entire thread at the request of a friend and I do agree that HK you did get a little carried away with science BUT you were defending yourself for him attacking you. He did have some valid points but so do you. The point here is that the Palestinians seem to be trying to take over where Hitler left off and i'm sorry but if i were Jewish I'd do ANYTHING in my power to stop that. The Arabs left that land because they were told it was to become a war zone. So instead of staying and defending their homes and possibly being killed they practiced self preservation. The Jews stayed and fought for it and won. It's there's by proxy. These terrorist bastards don't want it back for any other reason than greed. They want to eraticate the Jewish population so all's fair in love and war. I say it's kill or be killed.
The Palestinians don't have a point so their "side' is all but irrelevant. The Isreali people are defending their lives, their homes, and their freedom. And anyone who lived through the Hitler era would unsterstand that. have some symapathy for what the Jewish people have already suffered through due to hate. Some lived through Aushwitz only to be killed years later by the same kind of anti-semitism they lived through there. I doubt anyone can fully comprehend the horror of ther Halocaust. Do we really need another one?

<img src=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OAComSigPics/files/ItchyBitch/pirfsig.jpg> <marquee>"Just before our love got lost you said "I am as constant as the Northern Star" and I said, Constantly i<fon

RusticSoul

04-11-2002, 12:12 AM

Poison ivy i think u r groovy and horde blah blah blah just because alot of people dont agree with your opions don't cry like a baby about it
and poison ivy yum yum

science!

04-11-2002, 04:17 AM

what difference does it make who provides you with the facts?
It makes all the difference.
Ivy...when did I attack HordeKing? I never said anything about him. The attacks have only been coming from his side.

again I'll restate something because I think people are getting carried away...I DO NOT AGREE WITH PALESTINIANS!!!! They are very guilty of wanting to continue this war and deserve to be treated like criminals. However, I do not believe in going into their neighborhoods with a tank force and rounding up those that are guilty.
Truth is I don't care enough about this subject to have to defend my posts. Either way, I'll be knocked down for having the opinion that Isreal should be the better country and pull out. If HK is unwilling be stop this thread than I'll just stop writing to it. I know I didn't change anyone's mind on this issue, this is the RFmessageboard not the UN (oops..I mean the anti-semitic consipiracy UN). In the end, I did learn something. SHUT UP, TAKE YOUR PILLS AND STAND STILL.
P.S. HK I'm 27. Still young, but I think I'm above the youngster phase

See Ya!

furie

04-11-2002, 07:29 AM

when did I attack HordeKing? I never said anything about him. The attacks have only been coming from his side.

I feel it is sad that you believe that. Hopefully, there are others who have a different opinion.

that was said by you science. you got personal first. reread the thread.

that being said, let's all stay frosty

<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/Surfer3.jpg" width=300 height=100 >
AIM:furie1335

This message was edited by furie on 4-11-02 @ 11:32 AM

fatty

04-11-2002, 07:52 AM

Name the movie, win a prize

shawshank redemption. what's my prize?

by the way, i want to take time read all this but this thread is fucking NOVEL. don't worry though, i will soon have an opinion on who is right and i will let all of you know.

<IMG SRC=http://www.wcnet.org/~mkessen/hobbes4.gif>
Fatty makes us happy!

Meatball

04-11-2002, 07:55 AM

science wrote:
"However, I do not believe in going into their neighborhoods with a tank force and rounding up those that are guilty. "

science - - How else can you get them and bring them to justice? The USA is doing the same thing in Afghnistan. The police would go into a housing projet and search for rapists or drug dealers. The palestinians had 18 months to curb the attacks and have done nothing but step up their attacks. Science - would you tell the army to leave them alone if your family was blown up in tel Avivs Sbaros and knew the perpetrators were in Jenin planing more attacks?

This message was edited by mortician on 4-11-02 @ 12:00 PM

HordeKing1

04-11-2002, 08:41 PM

If the above actual percentages showing the tremendous anti-Israel and anti-semetic bias of the UN was insufficient, perhaps this will help - if you dare open your mind.

UN Watch Decries Discriminatory Treatment of Israel at UN Commission on Human Rights Session

April 2, 2002 - GENEVA -- UN Watch Executive Director Andrew Srulevitch today sharply criticized the UN Commission on Human Rights for blatant discrimination against Israel. UN Watch is the American Jewish Committee's Geneva office.
"This Commission pays 30 times more attention to the Arab-Israeli conflict than to other conflicts in the world, to the detriment of other pressing situations," said Mr. Srulevitch in testimony before the Commission.
The Commission's annual agenda divides the world into two, with Israel constituting a separate agenda item - Item 8 - and the rest of the world coming under another heading - Item 9.
"The American Jewish Committee condemns the flagrant bias against Israel created by this separate agenda item," said Mr. Srulevitch. "Israel should be examined under Agenda Item 9, like every other state."
Mr. Srulevitch suggested that the Commission, if it is concerned about the most sacred of human rights, the right to life, should devote more time to the pandemic of AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa.
"To spend two days criticizing Israel and perhaps two hours on AIDS demonstrates that this Commission has strayed from its purpose," said Mr. Srulevitch.
"Over 2.3 million Africans died from AIDS in 2001 and another 28 million are living with AIDS," said Mr. Srulevitch. By comparison over the last 18 months, violence in the Middle East has claimed almost 1500 Israeli and Palestinian lives.
Mr. Srulevitch reminded the Commission that at last year's session five of the 16 resolutions adopted condemned Israel, while 11 other situations were addressed with one resolution each.
"Even using the Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian maximalist figures for the effected populations, the five anti-Israel resolutions address the human rights of 3.5 million people, while the combined effected populations for the other 11 situations are 315 million," Mr. Srulevtich told the Commission.
The AJC called upon the Commission to rectify the injustice of discriminating against Israel by treating it separately.

"Of all 188 member countries of the UN, only Israel - in a glaring example of inequality - is ineligible to serrve on the Security Council, the world body's key deliberative group.

To be eligivle, a country must belong to one of the five regional groups. Israel should be part of the Asian bloc, but Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia and others have shamefully prevented its entry for decades.

Of all UN members only Israel is denied the right to belong to any regional group. UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has called for an end to this injustice and "the normalization of Israel's status w/in the UN." As a termporary measure, Israel has sought acceptance in the Western European and Others Group (WEOG), which includes not only the democracies of Western Europe but also Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the US. The US, Australia, Canada and Norway have supported Israel's admission to WEOG, but the 15 member European Uniron refuses to act.

Without membership in a regional group, Israel can never be elected to serve on the Security Council or, for that matter, on the other most important bodies on the UN system."

Perhaps this gave you a better understanding of why the UN's resolutions against Israel are meaningless.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

HordeKing1

04-11-2002, 08:52 PM

Anti-semitic acts continue to escalate.

4/11/02 (David Farer reporting from the riot filled streets of Antwerp) "By the time I saw them, most of the windows had been 2boarded up, but broken glass still lay on the sidewalk - small pieces of glass waiting sadly for somebody to sweep them into a garbage can, but still nothing I wanted to step on; they could go through my shoe. The bus-shelters lay open and twisted on the ground as well, although several buses and a ruined tram had been carted away. I wondered why nobody had burned McDonald's, for it too was a symbol of "American cultural imperialism". Jose Bove, the French anti-globalization activist, had made McDonald's his private hate. After the Twin Towers fell, European police announced they were re-enforcing protection of synagogues and McDonald's restaurants - not as grotesque a combination of symbols as it sounded at first hearing. Those who hate McDonald's hate synagogues, too, in these crazy days.
The rioters who had broken those windows had been fired up at a pro-Palestinian rally in Antwerp, Belgium. Some of its organizers, who must have a fine if unintentional sense of humor, called this rally a "peace-rally". It was held in the Meir, a main shopping street in the city of Antwerp. Many of the finest shops in town line the Meir. Like many major European streets, it is only for pedestrians. Shoppers and young people go about their business or relax under the statue of Peter Paul Rubens, the great Flemish seventeenth-century painter whose home, now a museum, is in a street leading onto the Meir, or take in an old film at the mansion that houses Antwerp's cinematheque.
When the rally's organizers called their rally a "peace-rally," they must have been thinking more of the peaceful and pleasant street in which it took place than of the speeches they made there. Police estimated that a noisy crowd of about 3,000 people, almost all of who were Moroccan Arabs, listened to harangues for about two hours. The content of these speeches was not detailed in Flemish newspapers the next day, because most of them were in Arabic. American and Israeli flags were burned publicly. Toward the end of this rally speakers wearing masks called for Jihad against the Jews.
Antwerp has a big Jewish population not far away. The Jewish neighborhood is conveniently located for a mob starting out from the Meir. They need only cross an avenue, enter another street, Keyserlei, and march a few hundred yards to the Antwerp Central Station. Along the streets leading from the railroad station are seventy or so jewelry shops belonging to Antwerp's community of Georgian Jews; after these shops there is another street where the diamond dealers and cutters work; and after the diamond area the mob could attack the streets where the Chassidim, most of whom are involved in some aspect of the diamond business, have their homes and synagogues. The police had kept a low profile during the demonstration in hopes of not provoking a riot. When they saw the mob moving in the direction of the Jews, however, they had to act.
This mob moved along destroying as it went. The rioters threw paving stones through shop windows, turned over cars, and knocked down waiting-booths at bus stops. They destroyed one trolley-car and seven buses. Substantial damage was done to some Georgian jewelry shops, as well as to a travel agency specializing in travel to Israel, but much of the hooliganism was random, against whatever the Arabs happened to see as they marched.
The police counter-attacked with water-cannons and night-sticks. They managed to corral the mob into a narrow side street, in which the police would have the advantage of coming at the Arabs from both ends of the road. The mob fought back with paving stones, but the police were both numerous and trained, so they won the battle, arresting seventy-four rioters, of whom twenty-four were minors. One was only thirteen. A policeman was seriously injured by one of those stones, as were a number of people passing by, including a cripple in a wheelchair.
Antwerp's J

adolescentmasturbator

04-11-2002, 08:53 PM

I don't have time to argue all 17 of your points. I even agreed with some of them. Yet you cannot seem to take that. I say yes I agree that was a terrible thing for the Arab nations to do and yet you paint me the usual way.

Let's talk about the hypocrisy in which you state that since Jews have a right to the land due to religon yet you constantly berate the very same religon for being full of lies. I think the Jews do deserve a nation. Not because of some book written thousands of years ago that may or may not be true but because everybody deserves some sort of nation.

Yet by your definition of semite (an archaic definition that has not been in common use for hundreds of years), killing every single murderous arab dog wouldn't be genocide, as Jews are semites and therefore the race is intact. Only those who have proven themselves less than animals, i.e. every Arab has to die. Per your definition, it's not genocide).

I can't believe what I'm reading. Arabs are a Semitc RACE. As where/are the Israelites are a Semitic race. They were part of the larget Semitic group.

Now let's see what dictionary.com's definiton of genocide is.

"The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group."

Your statements about killing every "Arab dog" would just about fall under genocide. Now come up how with a reply about how Palestinians are not a national, racial, political, or ethnic group. Really, I'd like to see you try.

There is nothing more disgusting than seeing someone try to disguise wishes for an entire ethnic group to be extinguished under the guise of intellectualism.

The Arabs left that land because they were told it was to become a war zone. So instead of staying and defending their homes and possibly being killed they practiced self preservation. The Jews stayed and fought for it and won.

Um..they wanted to leave but if anything the Arab armies wanted them to stay. Honestly let me ask this question. If your neighborhood became a War Zone, would you just stick around with your family?

HordeKing1

04-11-2002, 09:34 PM

ADOLESCENT - Why did you post in this thread instead of the one about arafat. That was where you made your initial comment.

Seems to me like you're trying to dodge the issue by placing it in a thread without the relevant information in it.

In any event, I know you agreed with most of the facts. You only disagreed with a few of them. That alone shows how spurious the claims of Arabs are.

I never claimed that Jews have a right to the land b/c of the bible. All religions are bullshit. But the so called devout muslims lay claim to Jerusalem as a holy site based on their religion, when there is no reference to it at all. This is the second time you asked about this, I thougth I replied to it before.

Additionally, I never claimed that judaism is full of lies - all religions are full of it. The hypocracy is using the koran to encourage murder in the name of allah to gain control of jerusalem (and the rest of israel and kill all jews) when jerusalem isn't even worthy of mention in the moslem's version of the insanity that is religion.

Now regarding your long quote regarding the use of the term semite, you refered to an "anti-semite" as being against arabs as well as against jews since both are considered semites. Sorry, but that's just plain silly. Anti-semitism refers specifically to discrimination and/or hatred of Jews.

You don't approve of killing every arab dog. The arabs do not want peace, have never wanted peace and will never want anything less than the destruction of israel and the anihilation of every jew.

It's a very simple equation. A group wants to kill your group. You either march to the ovens or fight. I hope fervently that Israel will fight and erradicate utterly from the memory of the world, all traces of those who seek to destroy her and the jewish race. It's them or us. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with intellectualism. It is basic common sense.

If the Arabs had sincerely wanted peace they would have had it long ago. They do not. Thus they must be destroyed. It's sad and even tragic, but that's the facts. Kill them before they kill all of us.

Regarding your next issue, if I believed in the justice of a cause, as i do here, and I had legitimate basis for such a claim I would stay and fight. Wouldn't you?

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

adolescentmasturbator

04-11-2002, 09:41 PM

Just because I agree with you on some points doesn't disprove my entire argument.

I agree. Hamas, IJ, etc. are all hypocrites. But that isn't a hard statement to make really.

Yes, obviously I know anti-semitism has a connotation of being Jewish yet I just thought it was truly ironic since you go left and right claiming everything and anything Anti-Israeli as Anti-Semitic yet in truth Jews and Arabs are derived from the same Semitic group.

As for me not approving the killing of all the "Arab dogs". I take that as a sign that I still have some humanity left. Because for the life of me I just do not understand the point of exterminating a group of people? The Japanese were a lot worse in WW2 than the Palestinians are now. Yet going around stating that every "Jap dog" deserves to die is wrong. Many whites in the South owned slaves in the early 1800s. But would that given slaves the right to kill every single white? No of course not. Just because a certain group has many atrocities coming from it doesn't mean you should kill them all.

The Israeli's have done a lot of bad things in my eyes. However I would never advocate systematically killing them as you do with the Arabs. Because I realize it is morally wrong to exterminate a people.

As for fighting for a cause. I would probably stay and fight if it was a cause I TRULY believed in. However I would not pass judgement on those who would avoid a War Zone. I have no right to judge someone because they value their life and the lives over their loved ones over a certain cause.

RusticSoul

04-12-2002, 12:50 AM

Again horde , if someone disagrees your point u cry like a little bitch The reason there will never be peace in the middle east is because of people like you, and i mean your attitude not your religion. Instead of trying to make peace all you do is blame the other side without taking some blame of your own. Both sides are wrong in what they did in the past and what they r doing now.

HordeKing1

04-12-2002, 03:47 AM

RUSTICSOUL - There can be no peace when 10 year olds blow themselves up to kill innocents - and he is hailed as a hero.

Is it just me who is crying like a bitch or do you include all the others who agree with me?

Perhaps next time you can explain how two (or more) people can dissagree completely and only those YOU disagree with you consider a crying bitch.

And where does your mysogyny come from? Do you value women and their opinions as little as do your muslim compatriots that you consoder it the height of insult to call someone female?

I eagerly await your reply.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

NewYorkDragons80

04-12-2002, 03:26 PM

If the UN is irrelevant in your eyes, then what is left to police the world? Israel has no authority to answer to but God (so as far as you are concerned, there is no authority Israel answers to.) Israel sees themselves above all rules. International law is irrelevant to the Israelis and as Hordeking has proven, anti-Semitism is their shield. All responsibility disappears when anti-Semitism is thrust into the equation. If you were to ask a random person in any corner of the globe, chances are they would agree that the Middle East is the most troubling conflict in the world. Therefore, it is obvious why the majority of UN resolutions would pertain to this region. And if the Jews are in the wrong, don't be an apologist. The way you are speaking right now, it reminds me of Gus Hall during Stalin's Great Purge.

Hordeking, why did Israel occupy Palestine? I just want to know. We all know Israel won the 6-day war, but what justified taking that land?

This may not be directly about land, but if a Palestinian state is established, it could begin a dialogue between Israel and Palestine. There may be a signifigant number of Palestinians who hate Jews, but I'm sure there were a lot of Jordanians and Egyptians that felt the same way. Today, Jordan and Egypt are some of Israel's closest friends (If Israel has any in that region.)

Maybe I'm Disneyland, but I think there are better ways to end this than genocide. Hordeking I hope you are wrong, for humanity's sake.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 4-12-02 @ 7:33 PM

HordeKing1

04-13-2002, 05:46 PM

Any concessions on land will just give the paelestinians further ability to pursue their terrorist genocidal agendas and strike even further at Israel.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

NewYorkDragons80

04-14-2002, 07:17 AM

Hordeking, just for the record I am pro-Israel and pro-Palestine. I would not have this position if I did not think it would ultimately lead to peace.

If Palestine is serious about wanting all of Israel, give them their own state. If they declare war on Israel, Israel will hand them their ass and have Palestine on a leash just like the Jordanians and Egyptians.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

HordeKing1

04-14-2002, 09:34 AM

NEWYORKDRAGON - I wished I shared your optimism. Land for peace has been offered numerous
times but the Palestinians don't want it. They want to kill Jews.

As is, Israel's borders are difficult to defend. It is surrounded by hostile
nations on all sides (even Egypt and Jordan, Israel's least aggressive
neighbors would join in a conflict agianst her).

Perhaps it's a function of my age or study, but I have a much more cynical
world view than that. I know the evil that people are capable of and I
treat people who have suffered horrible abuse on all levels. I've seen
little kids with welts on their body from being hit with a belt buckle and
women with cigarrette burns on their breasts, etc. I've seen women who've been gang raped
and left for dead. I've seen people betrayed by just about everyone in
their life. I feel fortunate to be able to help people in these situations.

Perhaps it's innate in me or perhaps its from being confronted with this suffering, I would never, and could never, treat the person who did the abuse and committed these crimes. Whether they are Jewish, Christian, Israeli,
Muslim, Buddhist, Martian, etc, I'd like to kill them for what they've done and the horrible emotional scarinng they've caused.

Even if the Palastenians would accept a land for peace deal, do you think it
would stop the bombings and killings? Of course not. They would just use
the newly acquired land to as a base to strike terror deeper into Israel's
heartland. And it's not limited to just Palestinians. As witnessed by the more than 56 million dollars raised in a 5 hour "martyrthon" the Saudi
people not just the leaders want to see Israel destruction. Hardly
surprising as they still call for Israel's destruction.

Some may be under the mistaken notion that the PLO ammended it's charter
calling for destruction of Israel in 1996. They did not. They said they
agreed with it "in principle" but never took any steps to actually change
the charter. 6 years later, everyone can see
that this was more PLO bullshit designed for a nice soundbite. The Arabs
are experts at spinning the media for their own ends.

Faced with an enemy whose ideology insists that there be no Israel, there
can be no peace. Palestinian maps do not include Israel on it at all,
reflecting their hopes and commitment to a "final solution."

Faced with the choice of defending itself by responding to violence with
even greater violence or turning the other cheek and painting a target over
their collective hearts, Israel's only hope for continued survival is to
anihilate those who wish to kill her.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

furie

04-15-2002, 10:58 AM

I still fail to see why the US is involved over in Isreal. If I remember my history, the UK took over that land from the Ottomans after WWI. After WWII, with the British Empire coming apart, Zionist in England were the first to push for a Jewish state. The UK was eager to dump that land because they were simply bankrupt financially and in terms of manpower. The UN passed the resolution, but the last country to own that land, was the UK. THEY should be there right now tring to settle the mess THEY created.

<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/spcyclops.jpg" width=300 height=100 >
AIM:furie1335

RusticSoul

04-15-2002, 11:32 AM

furie u r right the uk should decide who gets the land but our govt would oppose that because the uk would favor a palestine state, and our govt cares about the jewish vote and the arab oil and since the palenstines dont have any oil..................

furie

04-15-2002, 12:12 PM

i don't know if the UK would favor the palistinian side. they are the ones who initally pushed for Isreal in the UN. But you're probably right, the UK would try to establish a palistianian state, just in an attempt to end the fighting.

<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/spcyclops.jpg" width=300 height=100 >
AIM:furie1335

NewYorkDragons80

04-15-2002, 03:34 PM

I think anyone who thinks politicians are in it for the Jewish vote is wrong. I really do think the US supports Israel for pure reasons and sincerely believes in the right to a Jewish state. As a nation built on Christianity, we also want peace because the land is sacred to us.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

HordeKing1

04-15-2002, 05:42 PM

As the numerous senators, representatives, assemblymen, and other legislatures and community leaders who spoke at the Pro Israel Rallies on Friday, Sunday and Monday accross the country have stated, the US is interested in Israel b/c it is the only stable regime in the area. Furthermore, it consistently recognizes and respects US interest and has served as a base of US military operations in the region for many years.

Regarding England, the sun has long set over the Empire. (Historical reference). Why not have the UK determine policy in Australia, India, New Guinea, Africa and the USA. After all, the British once had a presence in all these places. The idea is silly - England has no say over any of it's former colonies.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

furie

04-15-2002, 06:37 PM

England's presence in the US
ended centuries ago. England left
Palistine a scant 55 years ago.
big diffrence.

And as for a silly idea why?
They're ideal. They're a neutal
third party, not nearly as hated
as we are. And they set up the
situation. If the UK had left India
but had created Pakistan as they
left, the resulting instability
resulting in 3 wars. then yes,
they are responsible to clean up
the mess.(that's just a What if
senario)

Why are we there? to flex the US
might? It's not working, we're
not getting the job done. We
tried, Lord knows we tried. Let
another country try to mediate.

You know HK, you've been very
hostile towards other members
responding to this thread. Quick
to dismiss others and their ideas.
If you don't agree with me or
anyone else say that, but don't
call my ideas "silly" or call
someone mis-informed simply
because you don't agree.

<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/wtcguy.jpg">
AIM:furie1335

This message was edited by furie on 4-16-02 @ 3:50 PM

ADF

04-15-2002, 07:05 PM

We're there because it's in our best interests to be there. This has been said numerous times, but defending the only legitimate democracy in the region can only serve to promote a way of life that brings about prosperity for the greatest amount of its citizens. To do otherwise would be irresponsible.

<img src= http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/tadf.gif>
Thanks to Gameguy for the sigpic!

furie

04-16-2002, 11:51 AM

Is it me, or does Powell seem to have no adgenda in his visit other than simply visit. To make a public show for both sides, but not really defining how he's going to resolve this conflict. That's what i thought he was doing in his little stop overs along the way, stalling for time to come up with a plan.

<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/spcyclops.jpg" width=300 height=100 >
AIM:furie1335

HordeKing1

04-16-2002, 12:00 PM

FURIE - . I did not mean to offend you. Please read the e-mail I sent you

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

furie

04-16-2002, 12:03 PM

np

<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/spcyclops.jpg" width=300 height=100 >
AIM:furie1335

This message was edited by furie on 5-29-02 @ 5:15 PM

Knocked

04-16-2002, 12:59 PM

The following is true;
The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 was preceded by more than 50 years of efforts by Zionist leaders to establish a sovereign nation as a homeland for Jews. The desire of Jews to return to what they consider their rightful homeland was first expressed during the Babylonian exile and became a universal Jewish theme after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. and the dispersal that followed.

It was not until the founding of the Zionist movement by Theodore Herzl at the end of the 19th century that practical steps were taken toward securing international sanction for large-scale Jewish settlement in Palestine--then a part of the Ottoman Empire.

The Balfour declaration in 1917 asserted the British Government's support for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. This declaration was supported by a number of other countries, including the United States, and became more important following World War I, when the United Kingdom was assigned the Palestine mandate by the League of Nations.

Jewish immigration grew slowly in the 1920s; it increased substantially in the 1930s, due to political turmoil in Europe and Nazi persecution, until restrictions were imposed by the United Kingdom in 1939. After the end of World War II, and the near-extermination of European Jewry by the Nazis, international support for Jews seeking to settle in Palestine overcame British efforts to restrict immigration.

International support for establishing a Jewish state led to the adoption in November 1947 of the UN partition plan, which called for dividing the Mandate of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state and for establishing Jerusalem separately as an international city under UN administration.

Violence between Arab and Jewish communities erupted almost immediately. Toward the end of the British mandate, the Jews planned to declare a separate state, a development the Arabs were determined to prevent. On May 14, 1948, the State of Israel was proclaimed. The following day, armies from neighboring Arab nations entered the former Mandate of Palestine to engage Israeli military forces.

In 1949, under UN auspices, four armistice agreements were negotiated and signed at Rhodes, Greece, between Israel and its neighbors Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. The 1948-49 war of independence resulted in a 50% increase in Israeli territory, including western Jerusalem. No general peace settlement was achieved at Rhodes, however, and violence along the borders continued for many years.

In October 1956, Israel invaded the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula at the same time that operations by French and British forces against Egypt were taking place in the Suez Canal area. Israeli forces withdrew in March 1957, after the United Nations established the UN Emergency Force (UNEF) in the Gaza Strip and Sinai. In 1966-67, terrorist incidents and retaliatory acts across the armistice demarcation lines increased.

In May 1967, after tension had developed between Syria and Israel, Egyptian President Nasser moved armaments and about 80,000 troops into the Sinai and ordered a withdrawal of UNEF troops from the armistice line and Sharm El Sheikh. Nasser then closed the Strait of Tiran to Israeli ships, blockading the Israeli port of Eilat at the northern end of the Gulf of Aqaba. On May 30, Jordan and Egypt signed a mutual defense treaty.

In response to these events, Israeli forces struck targets in Egypt, Jordan, and Syria on June 5. After 6 days of fighting, by the time all parties had accepted the cease-fire called for by UN Security Council Resolutions 235 and 236, Israel controlled the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and the formerly Jordanian-controlled West Bank of the Jordan River, including East Jerusalem. On November 22, 1967, the Security Council adopted Resolution 242, the "land for peace" formula, which called for the establishment of a just and lasting peace based on Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in 1967 in return for the end of all states of