View Full Version : BUSH - Reveals his misogynism yet again
HordeKing1
07-25-2002, 07:22 PM
Here's an example of the kind of women that Bush likes to appoint. He's set the cause of equality of the sexes back 20 years.
CALL THE WHITE HOUSE TO PROTEST!!
7/24/02
Since taking office, President Bush has nominated numerous anti-choice judges to the federal judiciary. The most recent nominee to come before the Senate Judiciary Committee is Priscilla Owen, who has been nominated to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals.
Justice Owen has actively demonstrated hostility to women's reproductive freedom and her nomination must be rejected.
Judge Owen currently serves as a Justice on the Texas Supreme Court. During her tenure, she has written several opinions suggesting a higher standard than what the law explicitly requires for minors attempting to access abortion services when they feel they cannot involve a parent. She has written several opinions that have advocated that Texas statutes regulating access of minors to abortion be interpreted to make access without the involvement of a parent exceedingly difficult. Her opinions were so extreme that even President Bush's White House Counsel, who was also a Texas Supreme Court Justice at the time of Owen's opinions, accused her of committing an "unconscionable act of judicial activism".
Justice Owen's record in these cases demonstrates more than insensitivity--and perhaps hostility--to the plight of a young woman who feels that she cannot involve a parent in her decision to have an abortion. It demonstrates her willingness to engage in judicial activism and to create hurdles that simply are not to be found in the words of the statute, in order to limit the exercise of a fundamental right.
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Not that I don't agree with you, HK, but your unnamed source seems more than a little biased.
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Cybersoldier
07-25-2002, 07:39 PM
This just doesn't hurt women but men who encourage their wives or girlfriend to get abortions for finanical and personal reasons
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HordeKing1
07-25-2002, 07:39 PM
OOPS, it's from the Planned Parenthood Action Bulletin. (I'm active in the organization.)
Join up at http://plannedparenthood.com/
Of course anyone opposed to curtailing a women's right to chose opposes the nomination of such judges.
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DC Reed
07-25-2002, 07:44 PM
Why doesnt Bush focus on the biggest problems in the world right now. Heres some more important matters he could adress......
AIDS crisis in Africa
Isreal Crisis
Possible Terrorist Attacks
Helping out the South
American Goverments
Removing Censorship and the FCC
INCREASING PUBLIC SCHOOL SPENDING AND REMOVING VOUCHERS
Getting rid of that stupid law were bulidings cant be taller than the capitol.
Violence in Ireland.
All those are worthy things that Bush could do, other than support the fat lesbian pro-lifers
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DC Reed
07-25-2002, 07:44 PM
But hey. Maybe a few hard line conservatives will help balance out sdome of the HORRIBLY LIBERAL people Bubba appointed.
I thought that pro-lifers are were conservatives? what ever, still im pro choice on everything much like joe.
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Death Metal Moe
07-25-2002, 07:48 PM
I'm all for Choice for EVERYBODY, including a Woman's right to choose.
But hey. Maybe a few hard line conservatives will help balance out sdome of the HORRIBLY LIBERAL people Bubba appointed.
EVIL REIGNS!!!
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How the hell does DC Reed quote Moe when Moe's post comes four minutes later? Let me ride in your time machine, Reed.
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spare_me_your_lines
07-26-2002, 08:36 AM
Wow!! HK, You got it in for Bush. How about your ass run for President and see if you can make the world a better place!!!!!!!!
All in favor of Hordeking becoming president.. raise your hand!
Cybersoldier
07-26-2002, 09:05 AM
Are there any modrates anymore. It seems every is either too libreal or conservative
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thanks czm for the help with sig
Jackie Sloan
07-26-2002, 09:57 AM
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The words you hear
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The pictures that give pleasure to your eyes......
Some of our laws really make sense don't they? They won't allow a child under the age of 18 to get her ears pierced without her parent's permission, but a major surgery like abortion, that can physically, psychologically, spiritually, and sexually (as a lot of woman are turned off sexually after such a procedure) harm a girl for the rest of her life, she doesn't need her parent's permission!
As a woman, I know for a fact, that I was in NO WAY capable of making a competant decision about such a life changing choice as abortion at the age of 18. I cringe to think about a choice I would have made then, that I would have been sorry for, for the rest of my life.
The unfortunate truth about girls that have abortions at that age is that they have them mainly because of the stigma bringing a baby into the world would cause her in front of her family and friends. I believe by discussing it with her parent, a lot of abortions would not have come to pass. I really feel sorry for girls in that position.
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This message was edited by Coco on 7-27-02 @ 12:17 PM
Knowledged_one
07-26-2002, 01:13 PM
Or how about the novel approach of birth control usage. I mean this is no longer the 80's where teen pregnancy ran unchecked. Its now beaten into these kids heads starting at the age of 13 not to have unprotected sex and the problems it can cause you later in life.
And Planned Parenthood there is a group capable of putting out an unbiased opionion on the subject im sure.
Eat a Bag of Dicks
angrymissy
07-27-2002, 02:45 PM
Or how about the novel approach of birth control usage. I mean this is no longer the 80's where teen pregnancy ran unchecked. Its now beaten into these kids heads starting at the age of 13 not to have unprotected sex and the problems it can cause you later in life
What happens when birth control fails? A condom breaks? The pill doesn't work becuase I get sick and vomit? I should be forced to gestate?
Some of our laws really make sense don't they? They won't allow a child under the age of 18 to get her ears pierced without her parent's permission, but a major surgery like abortion, that can physically, psychologically, spiritually, and sexually (as a lot of woman are turned off sexually after such a procedure) harm a girl for the rest of her life, she doesn't need her parent's permission!
As a woman, I know for a fact, that I was in NO WAY capable of making a competant decision about such a life changing choice as abortion at the age of 18. I cringe to think about a choice I would have made then, that I would have been sorry for, for the rest of my life.
The unfortunate truth about girls that have abortions at that age is that they have them mainly because of the stigma bringing a baby into the world would cause her in front of her family and friends. I believe by discussing it with her parent, a lot of abortions would not have come to pass. I really feel sorry for girls in that position.
I had an abortion when I was 15. I am so happy to this day that there were no parental consent laws in New York State. I've been there, and let me tell you, if there were a parental consent law, I wouldn't have told my parents. I would have either gotten an illegal abortion, or tried to hurt myself so I would miscarry. Letting minors make their own choice about their pregancies keeps them safe. Also, do you believe that if there is a parental consent law, and the minor wants an abortion, but the parents want her to carry the child to term, that the minor should be FORCED to carry the pregancy to term?
I don't agree with the following quote:
that can physically, psychologically, spiritually, and sexually (as a lot of woman are turned off sexually after such a procedure) harm a girl for the rest of her life,
Please note that an abortion is <B>10x safer than childbirth</b>, especially at a young age. I have had no adverse physical, sexual or emotional affects from abortion.
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This message was edited by angrymissy on 7-27-02 @ 7:35 PM
angrymissy
07-27-2002, 03:24 PM
More info that debunks the supposed widespead emotional aftereffects of abortion. Please note that I took this from the American Medical Association website.
Archives of General Psychiatry
Vol. 57, pp. 777-784, August 2000
<b>Psychological Responses of Women After First-Trimester Abortion</B>
ABSTRACT
Background: Controversy exists over psychological risks associated with abortion. The objectives of this study were to examine women's emotions, evaluations, and mental health after an abortion, as well as changes over time in these responses and their predictors.
Methods: Women arriving at 1 of 3 sites for an abortion of a first-trimester unintended pregnancy were randomly approached to participate in a longitudinal study with 4 assessments1 hour before the abortion, and 1 hour, 1 month, and 2 years after the abortion. Eight hundred eighty-two (85%) of 1043 eligible women approached agreed; 442 (50%) of 882 were followed for 2 years. Preabortion and postabortion depression and self-esteem, postabortion emotions, decision satisfaction, perceived harm and benefit, and posttraumatic stress disorder were assessed. Demographic variables and prior mental health were examined as predictors of postabortion psychological responses.
Results: Two years postabortion, 301 (72%) of 418 women were satisfied with their decision; 306 (69%) of 441 said they would have the abortion again; 315 (72%) of 440 reported more benefit than harm from their abortion; and 308 (80%) of 386 were not depressed. Six (1%) of 442 reported posttraumatic stress disorder. Depression decreased and self-esteem increased from preabortion to postabortion, but negative emotions increased and decision satisfaction decreased over time. Prepregnancy history of depression was a risk factor for depression, lower self-esteem, and more negative abortion-specific outcomes 2 years postabortion. Younger age and having more children preabortion also predicted more negative abortion evaluations.
Conclusions: Most women do not experience psychological problems or regret their abortion 2 years postabortion, but some do. Those who do tend to be women with a prior history of depression.
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angrymissy
07-27-2002, 03:30 PM
From the American Pediatric Association website - regarding parental consent laws and a minors right to get confidental care:
The Adolescent's Right to Confidential Care When Considering Abortion (RE9614)
AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Committee on Adolescence
ABSTRACT. In this statement, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) reaffirms its position that the rights of adolescents to confidential care when considering abortion should be protected. The AAP supports the recommendations presented in the report on mandatory parental consent to abortion by the Council on Ethical and Judicial Affairs of the American Medical Association. Adolescents should be strongly encouraged to involve their parents and other trusted adults in decisions regarding pregnancy termination, and the majority of them voluntarily do so. Legislation mandating parental involvement does not achieve the intended benefit of promoting family communication, but it does increase the risk of harm to the adolescent by delaying access to appropriate medical care. The statement presents a summary of pertinent current information related to the benefits and risks of legislation requiring mandatory parental involvement in an adolescent's decision to obtain an abortion. The AAP acknowledges and respects the diversity of beliefs about abortion and affirms the value of voluntary parental involvement in decision making by adolescents.
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angrymissy
07-27-2002, 03:42 PM
There - 2 unbiased articles answering statements regarding abortion. Ball is in your court.
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First off, Angry Missy, you have made your decision and had the right to make your decision under our laws. Understand, that, I IN NO WAY, condemn you or put any blame on you for your abortion. You did the best you could under the circumstances you were in.
The problem lies in with people that have other belief systems. People that believe that life begins at conception. A lot of people don't believe this - but that is their belief and they have every right to believe in what they want to believe in.
As far as the studies done:
[Methods: Women arriving at 1 of 3 sites for an abortion of a first-trimester unintended pregnancy were randomly approached to participate in a longitudinal study with 4 assessments1 hour before the abortion, and 1 hour, 1 month, and 2 years after the abortion. Eight hundred eighty-two (85%) of 1043 eligible women approached agreed: 442 (50%) of 882 were followed for 2 years. ]
---------------
Actually, I would probably agree with this study, because it only tracked the women for just 2 years afterward. If I had an abortion at 18, and they asked me if I was emotionally distraught by it at 20, I would have still been immature and unknowledgeable enough to realize that I had done anything wrong. I think the study would be much more accurate if they tracked women for 10-15 years afterward. When they were more knowlegeable and mature.
I know for a fact that a lot of women are psychologically harmed by abortion. I personally know of support groups for women dealing with just this issue.
Again, Angry Missy, I am not saying that you will suffer emotionally. It all depends on a person's own belief systems.
And there are women who are harmed physically from abortions as in any operation. I have read of many women that were unable to conceive post-abortion because of scar tissue, etc., and a lot of women do lose interest in sex after an abortion for fear they will get pregnant again. I listen to a noted woman psychologist on 71 am (Dr. Joy Brown) and when male callers call in telling her that their wives no longer want to have sex with them, one of the main questions she asks is "has she gone through an abortion".
Again, Angry Missy, you made your decision and had your right to, but depending on your belief system (and everyone has different ones) there are other issues involved.
I wish you all the best.
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This message was edited by Coco on 8-1-02 @ 4:30 PM
angrymissy
07-29-2002, 08:46 AM
Answers to issues raised. I feel very strongly about this subject and am open to debating it with anyone.
And there are women who are harmed physically from abortions as in any operation. I have read of many women that were unable to conceive post-abortion because of scar tissue, etc.,
What you are reading is second hand un-confirmable information. Where did you read about this? Was it on a repubtable medical site? Was there a doctor's diagnosis made? A lot of pro-lifers will say you won't be able to conceive after an abortion. Its total BS. Of course, as with any surgery, if there are complications, you might have a problem. The same goes with childbirth. If you refer to the American Medical Association's website - you will note that abortion, when performed safely and legally, is significantly safer than childbirth. Please refer to the article on side effects/risks of abortion.
and a lot of women do lose interest in sex after an abortion for fear they will get pregnant again. I listen to a noted woman psychologist on 71 am (Dr. Joy Brown) and when male callers call in telling her that their wives no longer want to have sex with them, one of the main questions she asks is "has she gone through an abortion
Please note that Dr. Joy Brown is not an unbiased source of information. First of all, she is not a doctor, she is a psychologist. She does not practice medicine. Second of all, she has a pro-life lean to her views. There are many other reasons why a woman could lose interest in sex.
Also, please note that in the study I quoted, 3/4 of the women surveyed were over the age of 19. Please refer to the chart below to answer any other questions you had about the survey
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This message was edited by angrymissy on 7-29-02 @ 1:08 PM
Angry Missy: Thanks for responding. This is one of those discussions that, unfortunately, just like politics and religion just goes round and round in circles. My thoughts on this, have already been expressed. Thanks for sharing your views and allowing me to share mine.
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HordeKing1
07-29-2002, 06:50 PM
COCO - Your reply was certainly not inappropriate, and in fact it reflects a mature view that people sometimes have to agree to disagree.
But it always makes me wonder how come the anti-abortion fans never argue on facts. The facts are that legal safe abortions are the greatest boon to the female gender since, well, ever. It has reduced infantacide, saved countless women's lives, in both the physical and psychological sphere and seems to me to be not only moral and ethical, but to oppose it is immoral and unethical.
Basically, the arguement can be boiled down into 2 components.
1. Some believe their religion requires them to believe that life begins as a piece of fertile tissue. These same people are able to overlook the prohibition against male masturbation, adultry and sex with children.
2. Even among those who oppose abortion, thier beliefs are limited to themselves. They cannot be justified in applying their personal belief onto others especially when these beliefs cause the utmost harm to all concerned.
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HordeKing1
07-29-2002, 06:57 PM
This is an excerpt from a recent correspondense Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy wrote me in response to my most recent letter urging her to continue her support for abortion, Roe vs. Wade, and to oppose Bush's anti-abortion judicial appointees.
"I believe the right to choose to have an abortion is a private matter between a woman, her God, her doctor, and hopefully her family."
I love the Congresswoman. She makes so much sense on so many issues.
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nellie
07-30-2002, 08:06 AM
fat lesbian pro-lifers
i believe you ment the fat conservitive house wives...
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HordeKing1
07-31-2002, 05:18 PM
Are lipstick lesbians pro choice?
Are fat liberal housewives as opposed to choice as thin fundementalist housewives?
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I can't really speak for fat conservative housewives or thin conservative housewives, but I am a pro-lifer and I am neither fat nor married. Just a gal in her 30's who has been through a lot of crap in my life and when I see a young teenage girl going through such a heavy choice like this, and the repercussions it can have on her life, I just try to give her all aspects of what her decision might bring.
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This message was edited by Coco on 8-1-02 @ 3:40 PM
HordeKing1
08-01-2002, 05:14 PM
COCO - 3 points.
1. Blood clots and fetal tissue are not alive. Saying you're "pro-life" is a way to avoid saying you're against choice. I'm sure you don't think of it that way, but how do you reconcile this?
2. In your own words, "going through such a heavy choice like this." Exactly the point. It's her choice. The repecussions you imagine for yourself do not apply for the overwhelming majority of women who have had abortions.
3. Family planning is more about birth control and less about abortions. Since birth control was available in the country, despite the legality of abortions, the number of abortions performed has decreased. The number of women's life saved by not having back alley abortions is more than the potential for life in fetal tissue that is aborted, or a separate sperm or egg cell. Read Margaret Sanger's biography and the ephipheny she had while attending a woman killed by an illegal abortion and you'll never view it the same way again. Instead, you'll come to appreciate the number of lives legal abortions save.
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This message was edited by HordeKing1 on 8-1-02 @ 10:26 PM
HK:
"Blood clots and fetal tissue are not alive."
- Since when is a fetus a blood clot?
- Fetuses are very much alive when attached to a woman's womb.
----
"Saying you're "pro-life" is a way to avoid saying you're against choice. I'm sure you don't think of it that way, but how do you reconcile this?"
- Because I believe in the free will of an individual. Not even God denies people free will.
----
My main point at the beginning of this argument was that I just don't believe that someone at the age of 15-19 have the life knowledge, maturity or capacity to make such a life altering decision such as abortion and that it may be a very good idea for parents to guide a child on the decision. I think that most people over the age of 30 would agree that they didn't have the life experience, formation of relgious beliefs, or knowledge at the age of 15-19 as they do at 30. A similar example to this were guys in the 1960's who were 18 and drafted to go to Vietnam who were all "gung ho" at the start to go over there and fight for their country. Only to be horrified and regretful at what they saw or did at the age of 30.
I also believe that there are a lot of women who regret abortions later on. Leaving religion totally out of the argument, I think that most young girls would love to have their babies and the primary reason for giving them up is because of what their families and friends may think - again, not because they genuinely don't want them. This has to cause some feeling of remorse or regret later on.
Again, HK, this is a discussion, as you know, that goes around in circles.
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angrymissy
08-02-2002, 08:28 AM
My main point at the beginning of this argument was that I just don't believe that someone at the age of 15-19 have the life knowledge, maturity or capacity to make such a life altering decision such as abortion and that it may be a very good idea for parents to guide a child on the decision
Please refer to the article I posted from the <B>American Association of Pediatricians</b> where they firmly state that a minor should be allowed to make a decision about abortion on her own. I think they probably have the best opinion on that issue. Also a teenage girl doesn't just walk into a clinic, get an abortion and walk out - you have to go through counselling where they advise you of the risks and repurcussions.
I also believe that there are a lot of women who regret abortions later on.
Please report back to the study I posted from the <B>American Medical Association</b> I'm sure they are more than qualified enough to post facts on that issue.
- Fetuses are very much alive when attached to a woman's womb.
But without the woman, they wouldn't be able to survive. So shouldn't the woman be able to decide what happens inside of her own body?
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"Please refer to the article I posted from the American Association of Pediatricians where they firmly state that a minor should be allowed to make a decision about abortion on her own. "
I have, and I noticed that they recommend that
"Adolescents should be STRONGLY encouraged to involve their parents and other trusted adults in decisions regarding pregnancy termination".
I definitely agree with them on this.
----
"I also believe that there are a lot of women who regret abortions later on.
"Please report back to the study I posted from the American Medical Association I'm sure they are more than qualified enough to post facts on that issue."
Again, as stated in my previous post, both studies were done for just 2 years after an abortion. I stated that it would be truer if the woman were tracked for 10-15 years after the abortion (especially 15-19 year olds). In my opinion, a lot of women from about 21 on have already SET religious beliefs, knowledge and maturity, so tracking them for 2 years really doesn't indicate anything to me because their ideas and beliefs have been set at that point.
---
As indicated in a previous post, my feelings have already been expressed on this issue, and all of us just end up repeating ourselves.
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HordeKing1
08-03-2002, 10:29 PM
COCO - It's a discussion, and you can have a different opinion than I.
However, you wrote that your opinion is based on the conception that a 15-19 year old lacks the "life knowledge, maturity or capacity to make such a life altering decision."
However, you don't seem to think they lack the "knowledge, maturity or capacity" to raise an infant in a safe and loving environment and to provide for herself and the baby (or babies).
Facts indicate otherwise: Teen mothers across all demographies are the lowest socioeconomic group in the country. They are also the least educated and most likely to be on public support. Thier children are the most likely to become teen mother themselves.
You go on to say that you think they'd love to have the baby. Given the above why would they? Teen motherhood ruins the life of the teen and usually assures a bad future for the child as well.
Your wrote that you feel that people at 30 have a different perspective than those at 15. True. People hopefully mature with age. Teens who were preganant and had abortions realize that their maturity and their ability to proceed with life was based on the wisest decision they ever made - having an abortion.
As for parental involvement in the decision (shudder), you'd like to place the future of this teen in the hands of parents who probably never even spoke to her about sex before!! If the teen is comfortable talking to her parents, terrific. It's great for her to have their support. But most teens don't talk to their parents b/c they know how their parents will react - with venom and lack of compassion and understanding.
You wrote that you don't believe that teens have the religious formation that 30 year olds have. Later you say that you leave religion out of the argument. How can you reconcile this? I don't believe it's possible because religion is the core of your argument. Thre's nothing wrong with that, of course, but you should still acknowledge it.
Studies have shown that although a small percentage of women regret having had abortions, the vast majority are greatful for it and the abortion ended depression, suicidal thoughts, and other anguish. Many women do wonder about their aborted fetus, in a "what if" sort of way, but the overwhelming majority do not regret for a moment that they had an abortion.
BTW, are you completely against abortions? Even in cases of rape or incest? How about when the life of the woman is endangered by the pregnancy?
How about during the evolution of the fetus, from fish (with gills and tail) to reptillian, to lower mammal and finally to something that resembles the potential for human life? Yes, the fetus goes through an evolutionary developmental stage mimicking the different types of evolved life on earth.
Is it OK in your opinion to abort a zygote? Is it sinful when a guy masturbates and all those sperm are killed, their potential for life gone forever? How about when a woman menstruates and the egg is deprived of it's potential for life.
These questions might seem flippant, but they are not meant that way. I'm curious to how you reconcile them to your beliefs.
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Horde King: This subject causes so much angst for everyone who talks about it. It is just not the subject that makes one popular if you are pro-life. Most of how I feel I have expressed. I hope we can move on to (hopefully) more happy topics.
I really do feel for young girls in this position though and I wish guys were more in tune to the anguish that ladies go through in making their choice.
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We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive
HordeKing1
08-06-2002, 03:42 PM
COCO - If you'd like to drop the topic, we can of course. I was just interested in how you answer the questions I asked. Nonetheless if it's causing you grief or aggravation, we'll just agree to disagree.
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