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Tenbatsuzen
08-01-2002, 08:02 AM
Some of the phone calls during R&F's Springsteen break last night really annoyed me. Before I go into this, let me launch a disclaimer:

Yes, I'm a big Bruce fan. No, I didn't call in last night. However, instead of being a blind Bruce fan, I try to stay informed.

I'm not going to get into the whole 41 Shots part of the conversation, because people know my opinions on that. Shit happens. Bruce wrote a song about it. Right or Wrong, the cops fucked up and killed an innocent man. Same thing with Kent State and CSNY's "Ohio". You don't like it, too bad. It's what you get for being misinformed.

What annoyed me is that people were calling Bruce opportunistic and a hypocrite. THAT set me off.

I don't understand how someone can call an artist who has pretty much done incredible amounts of local charity work and actually got his hands dirty "opportunistic". Someone who charges 300 dollars for Concert Tickets is opportunistic *COUGH ROLLING STONES - EAGLES - CHER COUGH*.

I simply don't get it. And a lot of the charity work Bruce DOES do is kept on the downlow, that we don't even KNOW about - hell, Smoking Gun had to dig up tax documents to show Bruce donated 50K to save one persons' house - god knows how much he's given to various 9/11 charities, etc.

As for Bruce being a hypocrite... No matter HOW many members of the police and firefighters are on this board, one of the big reasons Bruce wrote an album like this is because he saw how many people who died were fans of his. They weren't playing "Wild Horses" or "The Space Between" at funerals, they were playing "Born to Run" or "Thunder Road".

41 Shots has nothing at all to do with this album. He condemned race riots - yet he has a black sax player. Does that make him a hypocrite? It's the same argument.

I also don't want to hear the fact that he's trying to make money off 9/11 - I'm sure with the money he made from the 99/00 tour, he's just hurting for cash. [/sarcasm] Money comes from touring, kids - not record sales. Besides, "The Rising" isn't exactly a commercial album.

It seems to me that R&F were trying to stir the pot and not doing a very good job, because Ron himself was wavering between being anti-Bruce and Pro-Bruce the whole time. I mean, they brought in Earl as an "expert" and even *HE* admitted he had only heard the album once. One listen does not make you a critic of the album.

Just my .02 cents, and just waiting for Chris to jump at me...



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Death Metal Moe
08-01-2002, 08:45 AM
Bruce is Boring, and OVER.

People's Choice:Most Vulgar Poster!

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JerseyRich
08-01-2002, 08:59 AM
After hearing some of the album last night on the show...I now realize why Bruce and the E Street Band hasn't made studio album in 18 years...
BECAUSE THEY ARE NO LONGER RELEVANT!

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moz
08-01-2002, 09:01 AM
i rather hear a whole CD of anthony doing his version of bruce. WAH WAH WAH! <P>

ADF
08-01-2002, 09:18 AM
I like a couple of the old songs. Other than that, he's not my style. There are very few things that I care less about that a celebrity's political and charitable affiliations.

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Pootertoot
08-01-2002, 09:23 AM
If you're going to do a 9/11 album, shouldn't it all be 9/11? Maybe that's a bit narrowminded, but it was a little offputting to hear "Empty Sky" followed by a song about going over to Mary's house because she throws great parties. Or maybe that was about 9/11 and I'm just dense.

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philby
08-01-2002, 09:25 AM
Most charity is done for tax write-off purposes. Bruce stinks. He is so over. Like Michael Jackson. <P>

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DarkHippie
08-01-2002, 09:25 AM
this album wasn't meant to be about 9/11 per se anymore than "the crucible" is about the red scare. Its just that the album was written with the theme of the tragedy in mind, and with the moods of loss and of eventual recovery. And while many of you may not appreciate his music (hell, i can't stand most of yours) you can not doubt his emotion and ernestness.

You don't need loud guitars and screaming vocals to convey sadness.

I'm reminded of a blues jam at a concert with b.b. king, albert king, clapton, raitt and others. the story goes, that they all tried to out duel each other with soul searing blues, their fingers dancing all over the fret board so fast you could not see.

then it was B.B.'s turn. He played one note. . . he just held it, but the intensity, the soul, that poured through that one note, made the others just smile, and hang their heads.

Nuff said

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This message was edited by DarkHippie on 8-1-02 @ 5:55 PM

Spoil-Sport
08-01-2002, 09:40 AM
I am a Bruce fan and I thought it was a good discussion. At one point Ron got pissed and said he didn't want any prank calls getting through. He mentioned other artists and wondered if they'd get labelled opportunistic right off the bat instead of being given the benefit of doubt as Bruce pretty much is. Fez said he was being totally serious when he thought it was too early to be listening to songs about 9/11. After 1 listen I agree with Ron, it doesn't sound like the E Street band, but I think a lot of the songs will sound much better when performed live. <P>

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Coco
08-01-2002, 11:51 AM
I don't blame Bruce for putting out an album about 9/11 anymore than the songs years ago written protesting Vietnam. The guy's an artist an is expressing his feelings.

Is his stuff now as good as it was years ago - no.



______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive

This message was edited by Coco on 8-1-02 @ 3:55 PM

Tenbatsuzen
08-01-2002, 01:13 PM
Christ, is ANYTHING in music relevant nowadays? That's the problem, it feels like no one has any sustaining power!

I can't think of any rock bands who will be relevant in ten years.

Is Metallica still relevant?

Will Creed be relevant?

What about Eminem?

Harvey Danger? Ok, bad example.

The point being is this: Music is so fucked up and twisted today, you can't trust anyone else but yourself to know what's good and what's not!

This isn't a discussion about the album nor is about Springsteen's relevance.

My problem was with the misinformed callers last night who attacked Springsteen and sounded stupid doing it.

"He hates the cops yet he's doing a 9/11 album - he's a hypocrite!" - WRONG!

"He jumped on the 9/11 Bandwagon" -WRONG!

What the fuck is the 9/11 bandwagon anyway? There's a bandwagon to feel bad about what happened? I mean, are you cool and independent if you feel GOOD about what happened on 9/11?

We all had our ways of coping with what happened. This was Bruce's.

Poot - this album isn't being touted by the record company as THE 9/11 album. It's core material is 9/11 centered, but not once are the towers/planes/etc. mentioned.

I honestly believe that if 9/11 didn't happen, this album about loss, darkness, light, redemption, and love would rank among Springsteen's finest.

And about getting the band back together - the band WAS back together as of 1999. This was the first one together. It wasn't like Bruce assembled studio musicians after mending bridges with the reunion.



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TheMojoPin
08-01-2002, 05:10 PM
I think people are more hurt by what they DIDN'T get. I've heard the album three times, and it left me very cold. Not because of the content, but because of the LACK of the effort that everyone was going on and on and on about. He "interviewed" hundreds of witnesses and rescue workers? Well, I don't doubt he met with them, but this album has absolutely ZERO impact in terms of "being there", physically or emtionally. It's a sparse, unfullfilling album that isn't dark, depressing, uplifting, anger-inducing, sorrowful, NOTHING. It's just there. It's not a 9/11 album, it's a nothing album. It's aimless and unfocused. What happened to stage-preacher Bruce? Where's street-prophet Bruce? Gone. Just naturally "evoloving" up the social and financial ladder, he's no longer "one of us". "The Rising" feels like the work of someone who saw a great experience from afar and then locked himself in a windowless room and created SOMETHING and didn't allow himself to really get into the heart of the matter. It goes from point A to point B in a very straight line. It questions nothing, it reveals nothing, it just states what is as what is. I don't doubt that he met with hundreds of cops and firefighters and helped ease their pain, but none of that experience comes through on the album, if that's really what he was trying to do. Ultimately, it's really quite unremarkable.

And "41 Shots" shouldn't mean shit. Those cops, JUST THE ONES THERE, made a stupid, stupid mistake and brutally killed an innocent man and got off much, MUCH easier than they should have. "41 Shots" is rightfully a condemnation against those particular police officers, NOT police officers in general. What's the big issue there? Bruce never came out and said he "hates all cops." He was basically saying "THESE guys fucked up and there's not any justice." Boom. That's it.

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TheMojoPin
08-01-2002, 05:27 PM
And before anyone jumps on this, I'm not trying to start a political debate by bringing up Diallo's case. I'm keeping my feelings on the case to myself, what I was talking about was what I assume Springsteen was trying to say. I may have put it more bluntly and far less eloquently than others might, and I may even be wrong, but trust me, I don't want to start a battle.

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DarkHippie
08-01-2002, 06:18 PM
I don't agree with you mojo, (about it being emotionless) but you back you opinion up well enough that i certainly respect it

<IMG SRC=http://czmachine.50megs.com/images/dhsig1.gif>

this sig is the masterpiece of the cheesy one
<i>LABELS ARE FOR PRODUCTS, NOT PEOPLE!

And all I do is miss you and the way we used to be
All I do is keep the beat and bad company
All I do is kiss you through the bars of a rhyme
Julie I'd do the stars with you any time-- Dire Straights "Romeo and Juliet"
</i>

<a href=http://www.freeopendiary.com/entrylist.asp?authorcode=A537085>Transcendental Blues: a journal</a>

Cybersoldier
08-01-2002, 06:49 PM
I'm might have to move bruce spingsteen to the samer catoregy as micheal jackson. Bruce had his time just like micheal and the album could have waited at least a year after 9/11. I would feel abit differently if some to most of the profit going to a charity for the victims but other than that it sounds like his last album, but the album kind does give you and idea of emotion of that day at least to me.

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TheMojoPin
08-01-2002, 07:04 PM
Thanks, Hippie. I really was looking forward to the album, and I don't by any means think it's bad. I was very eager to hear the musical take of the man of men, Bruce Springsteen, on the events of 9/11, especially now that he's back with the E Street Band. I think mostly I expected more of a "cycle" to the album. Think of the day itself...things started off perfectly normal, then sudden chaos, then confusion, shock, horror, sadness, numbness...on and on and on...but even by the end of the 9/11 itself, people were already talking about picking up their lives, about rescuing and rebuilding; about moving on. "The Rising" seems to drop right into the middle of a burning building and doesn't give you a chance to catch your breath or survey what's going on. See, with a guy like Bruce, who's known for presenting a "man on the street" kind of reporting approach, I was waiting for an album that seemed to present one man as these incredbile events happened around him, or in front of him. But instead it seems like the album focuses on this great, massive event from various viewpoints, but never really seeming like the same person.

Ah well, I've posted WAY too much in this thread...sorry to anyone I've bored into a coma...

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Sig pic courtesy of the rockingest cock in all the land...ROOOOOOSTAAAAH!!!

"Women cry for it...men DIE for it!"

"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

-TMP

jerseystreets
08-02-2002, 06:52 AM
1. If Bruce isn't relevant, then why are we talking about him? <P>
2. Since when is it NOT ok to say the police are out of line when you think they are? Should the police NOT be questioned for shooting someone 41 times? And should WE not be examining ourselves for creating a world where police are scared enough to HAVE to shoot someone 41 times? The song, if anyone listened, looked at both sides. <P>
3. And finally, just because someone wrote a song saying he thought a particular action by the NYPD is wrong, is he then excluded from feeling any kind of grief when he watches 3000 people die? <P>
I love the new album, but that's not the point. Anyone who calls Springsteen a hypocrate or an opportunist is WAY off base. He's an artist who tried to turn some of the country's grief into catharsis and redemtion of some sort. Wheather or not he's suceeded is up to the individual listener. But to claim that his motives are greed or opportunism is <P>

Spoil-Sport
08-02-2002, 07:19 AM
Who decides who's relevant and who's not? Is he not relevant because you can't relate to a 50 year old multi-millionaire? Does being a TEENAGE multi-millionaire make you relevant? I think I relate to that even less.

He's making music, selling records, he will sell out every show when he tours, and people are talking about him. Sounds relevant to me.

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Pootertoot
08-02-2002, 09:30 AM
Poot - this album isn't being touted by the record company as THE 9/11 album. It's core material is 9/11 centered, but not once are the towers/planes/etc. mentioned.


"Empty Sky" is about a cloudless day, then? ;P

And the day Harvey Danger loses relevance is the day America dies.

JACK THE LION WILL NEVER ROAR HIS LAST!

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philby
08-02-2002, 10:32 AM
Yeah, I guess even the over 50 set needs their "rockers".

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