Horde King- What makes you so sure....

[spare_me_your_lines]

that there is no after life? What makes you so sure there is no God? Can you prove there is no God?

[HordeKing1]

Occam's razor for one.

For another, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. There is no proof at all of anything supernatural let alone of a divine being(s).

On the other hand there is plenty of evidence to counter the ridiculous mythology of the various bibles and "holy" texts.

Religion is and always has been primarily a means of social control. It's secondary or even tertiary objective is to help us understand the world around us. As our species have evolved the need for a sun god and thunder god, etc, were obviated by greater scientific understanding of these phenomenon. We can only hope that if our species survives long enough, we'll evolve past the need for superstitions and for means of further dividing and separating ourselves.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[Death Metal Moe]

How can you be so sure your stupid God even like you?

I talked to God last night, and he HATES your ass.

And he's giving The Horde King............A BRAND NEW CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<IMG SRC=http://unhallowed.com/sigs/deathfaction.gif>
www.unhallowed.com
<marquee>People's chioce: MOST VULGAR POSTER!! FUCK YEA!!</marquee>

[A.J.]

And he's giving The Horde King............A BRAND NEW CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bob Barker is God?

<IMG SRC="http://nortonfan.com/shit/greatsig.jpg">
"Got to scrape that shit right off your shoes."

[Jackie Sloan]

Which he deserves!


<img src="http://norraccm.freeservers.com/images/rnf_jackiesloan_01.gif"><br>
Ferrall is the man
Love the Ferrall

[TheMojoPin]

And he's giving The Horde King............A BRAND NEW CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah, but HERE'S the ultimate question in the universe...does God buy American?

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/themojopin.jpg>
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
-TMP

[IRISjr]

I'd say yes to the question if bob barker is god.
Im an athiest, but every1 can agree on bob barker.

<center><img src="http://members.aol.com/rundog2001/myhomepage/irissig.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US"></center>

<marquee>IRIS loves ya</marquee>
<marquee>but IRIS jr probably doesn't</marquee>

<marquee>THANKS FelixDasGato for the GREAT sig.
</marquee>

[spare_me_your_lines]

nj moe whatever the hell your name is. I didn't say I believed in God. I was asking horde king a question since he has infinite wisdom. I wanted to hear his views on the subject. As for your rude comment I will just say go clutch your little schmeckal and knock off some frustration because you couldn't get a woman if you tried.

[TomPoo]

there is plenty of evidence to counter the ridiculous mythology of the various bibles and "holy" texts.


no need to be a dick about it.

this "ridiculous mythology" means alot to some people so do not trivialize it to make your point.





<IMG SRC="http://tompoo.50megs.com/images/tompsig3.jpg" width=300 height=100>

There is nothing more exhilerating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?

[Hawiian shirt craig]

HK- how do we know YOU aren't god testing our faith??? wheres bob jones to call you satan the deciver!!!?

AHHHHHHHH...uh oh i've gone cross eyed


-Hawiian Shirt Craig
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!!

<img src="http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/HSC.gif">

[blakjeezis]

Bob Barker is God?
It's actually Rod Roddy. You can tell by the shiny suit.

<IMG SRC =http://blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/sabretooth.gif>
Thanks to PanterA
<marquee>White people are so scared of blakjeezis</marquee>

[spare_me_your_lines]

Yeah I found that horde king was being a dick about his explanation also. Pretty weird coming from an orthodox jew. Maybe he got raped in the temple. He seems angry when it comes to God. We maybe on to something people....
Stay tuned

[TheMojoPin]

HK- how do we know YOU aren't god testing our faith???

Shit. My head just exploded.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/themojopin.jpg>
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
-TMP

[DarkHippie]

I've heard the term "Occam's Razor" before but I don't know what it is. could you explain it for me?

<IMG SRC=http://czmachine.50megs.com/images/dhsig1.gif>
<marquee>Who is DarkHippie? "You look like an Amish child molester"-- Jim Norton. "Watch out for this one. Someday he's gonna snap and kill you all."-- Rich Vos </marquee>
<i>LABELS ARE FOR PRODUCTS, NOT PEOPLE!
</i><a href=http://www.freeopendiary.com/entrylist.asp?authorcode=A537085>Transcendental Blues: a journal</a>

[Death Metal Moe]

spare me your lines?

Nice name, Deek.

You bore me. You are the latest little douche bag on the board who can't take a joke. You're not even worth a board fight.

Anyway, we're supposed to be nice to new people for some reason. And I like being here, so you win, OK. Just go away.

Anyway, Bob Barker IS GOD! When you die, you go to Heaven, and play PLINKO for eternal life in paradise. If you don't score enough with the chips, you go to hell.

And the whole thing is in front of a Dead Studio audience. Plus, God always talks into that skinny black mic.

<IMG SRC=http://unhallowed.com/sigs/deathfaction.gif>
www.unhallowed.com
<marquee>People's chioce: MOST VULGAR POSTER!! FUCK YEA!!</marquee>

[Hawiian shirt craig]

Yeah I found that horde
king was being a dick about his
explanation also. Pretty weird
coming from an orthodox jew.
Maybe he got raped in the
temple. He seems angry when it
comes to God. We maybe on to
something people....


tick tock.... tick tock....


-Hawiian Shirt Craig
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!!

<img src="http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/HSC.gif">

[HordeKing1]

NJDMMOE - If I had to wait for God to buy me a new car, I'd be waiting as long as Janis Joplin.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[HordeKing1]

TOM POO - Here's something to think about? Do you consider the stories of Greek Gods to be factual? Or were the stories of Zues, Hercules, Hades and the like mythology? If you're honest you'll acknowledge that you view it as the latter. In fact it's classified as mythology in the public libraries, as is many religious texts from other religiouns including christianity. Take a look under the heading "christian mythology."

Since I believe no religious text has any basis in fact or rationality, they are at best stories that are mildly entertaining for their portrayal of dysfunctional individuals and families.

You are free to choose to believe that the bibles are litterally the word of gods (except for the ones that are not - like the religions you don't subscribe to.)

APARE ME YOUR LINES - Orthodox Jew? Whatever gave you that idea. I'm an atheist. Orthodox Jews typically consider me anathema. Perhaps when you reach a certain development in intellctual growth you may be able to overcome your childhood indoctirnation (i.e. brainwashing) in the religious mumbo jumbo. Eventually, if our species lasts so long, we'll evolve beyond the need for religion.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

This message was edited by HordeKing1 on 9-3-02 @ 8:23 PM

[HordeKing1]

HIPPIE - Occam's Razor is a basic principle of scientific method. At it's most fundemental level it is the proposition that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Put another way, hypothesis should contain the very least amount of unproven assumptions.

A typical example of this principle (aside from religion) is to take a tree that has fallen down after a lightning storm. Based on the evidence of "a lightning storm" and "a fallen tree" a reasonable hypothesis would be that a lightning bolt hit the tree causing it to fall. This hypothesis requires only one assumption - that it was a lightning bolt (as opposed to an elephant) which knocked over the tree.

An alternate hypotehsis, that the tree was knocked over by marauding 200 feet tall space aliens requires several additional assumptions (concerning the very existence of aliens, their ability to travel interstellar distances and the alien biology that allows them to be 200 feet tall in terrestrial gravity) and is therefore inferior.

Occams razor suggests the former hypothesis is much more likely than the latter.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[DarkHippie]

My fault, I didn't phrase the question correctly: why is it called Occam's razor? (it seems a bit funny that a principle to keep things simple should have such a bewildering name ;) )

<IMG SRC=http://czmachine.50megs.com/images/dhsig1.gif>
<marquee>Who is DarkHippie? "You look like an Amish child molester"-- Jim Norton. "Watch out for this one. Someday he's gonna snap and kill you all."-- Rich Vos </marquee>
<i>LABELS ARE FOR PRODUCTS, NOT PEOPLE!
</i><a href=http://www.freeopendiary.com/entrylist.asp?authorcode=A537085>Transcendental Blues: a journal</a>

[Hawiian shirt craig]

hippy killed god!!!!!! with a
razor!!!!!!


-Hawiian Shirt Craig
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!!

<img src="http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/HSC.gif">

[TheMojoPin]

hippy killed god!!!!!! with a
razor!!!!!!

See how rumors get started?!? First OJ...now Hippie!!!

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/themojopin.jpg>
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
-TMP

[A.J.]

Anyway, Bob Barker IS GOD! When you die, you go to Heaven, and play PLINKO for eternal life in paradise. If you don't score enough with the chips, you go to hell.


I'll take the putting game.

<IMG SRC="http://nortonfan.com/shit/greatsig.jpg">
"Got to scrape that shit right off your shoes."

[Recyclerz]

DH more info on Occam http://www.weburbia.com/physics/occam.html <P> <P>

You're only young once but you can be immature forever!

This message was edited by Recyclerz on 9-3-02 @ 11:56 PM

[Freeze]

Even when your wrong it`s always good to have faith,even when your wrong.

Its pretty cold in here.......

[Jobberific]

Anyway, Bob Barker IS GOD! When you die, you go to Heaven, and play PLINKO for eternal life in paradise. If you don't score enough with the chips, you go to hell.


Actually, its not Plinko its the game with the little yodeller climbng up the mountian. It really represents the true nature of life. The higher you climb in life you can have great success, but you risk great failure.

"DANCE MONKEYS!!!! DANCE FOR OUR PLEASURE!!!"

[TomPoo]

TOM POO - Here's something to think about? Do you consider the stories of Greek Gods to be factual? Or were the stories of Zues, Hercules, Hades and the like mythology? If you're honest you'll acknowledge that you view it as the latter. In fact it's classified as mythology in the public libraries, as is many religious texts from other religiouns including christianity. Take a look under the heading "christian mythology."

Since I believe no religious text has any basis in fact or rationality, they are at best stories that are mildly entertaining for their portrayal of dysfunctional individuals and families.


It doesn't matter what I believe or not... that is not my point.

What I am saying is, too MANY people, those "stories" have alot of meaning and have supported them through many many tough times.

For example, when my friend's grandfather died I watched his family turn to their religion to get them through those very hard times. They are not practicing Catholics by any means, but I know their faith in God helped them.

All I am saying is, it is fine that you look at the bible, and other religions as fables or mythology - But you tend to take a condescending attitude when you speak about it. And whe you trivialize it, you insult those who turn do to there respective faithes.

God or no god... whatever,

But when you post about this topic, weather you mean to or not, you put down others for there belief in god and I find that to be a bit insensitive - which is why I said you're being a dick.



<IMG SRC="http://tompoo.50megs.com/images/tompsig3.jpg" width=300 height=100>

There is nothing more exhilerating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?

[Coco]

Faith is a gift from God. Pray for it and you will get it.

Horde King: Of interest to you and your future career as a psychologist is a book by Gerald May called "Addiction and Grace". It is written by a psychiatrist who takes a sabatical from practice because he is depressed that none of his patients really seem to be getting better even from putting them on the best medications available.

He goes out and researches people who have been on the very bottom of society - the better part of them former heroin addicts that have completely recovered from their addictions. He interviews them and asks them what it was that "turned them around". He found over and over that the common thread was a spiritual awakening.

Alcoholics Anonymous has put millions upon millions of people in recovery and the foundation of their step to recovery is a belief in a higher power.

I know in my own life, there is nothing on this earth that brings me more joy than my faith in God. And I have been through it all - many boyfriends, money, alcohol, etc. (temporary things that bring temporary pleasure).

I have experienced extaordinary things in my life that were beyond human explanation that I could only attribute to God.



______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive

This message was edited by Coco on 9-4-02 @ 10:51 AM

[TheMojoPin]

Bob Barker, my ASS. We all know Bozo The Clown is God...and if you can't toss the ping-pong ball in that damn final bucket, you get tossed down below...

"CRAM IT, CLOWN!!"

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/themojopin.jpg>
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
-TMP

[DarkHippie]

i thought clapton was god?

<IMG SRC=http://czmachine.50megs.com/images/dhsig1.gif>
<marquee>Who is DarkHippie? "You look like an Amish child molester"-- Jim Norton. "Watch out for this one. Someday he's gonna snap and kill you all."-- Rich Vos </marquee>
<i>LABELS ARE FOR PRODUCTS, NOT PEOPLE!
</i><a href=http://www.freeopendiary.com/entrylist.asp?authorcode=A537085>Transcendental Blues: a journal</a>

[TheMojoPin]

i thought clapton was god?

Only to paunchy, old white men with bad suits and ugly ties.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/themojopin.jpg>
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
-TMP

[Death Metal Moe]

And I was under the impression that Lemmy was actually God.

<IMG SRC=http://unhallowed.com/sigs/deathfaction.gif>
www.unhallowed.com
<marquee>People's chioce: MOST VULGAR POSTER!! FUCK YEA!!</marquee>

[HordeKing1]

HIPPIE - Occam's razor was developed by a guy named William of Occam. Hence the name.


TOMPOO - Your subjective feelings about the validity or invalidity are crucial, do not be so quick to dismiss them.

Some people are helped by the crutch of religion. Most people are not. In fact most people's lives are hurt by religion, whether in the form of needless guilt, hangups or fetishes. However, religion is even worse b/c more people are killed in the name of god than any other reason.

Ultimately the reason I am eager to debate the fallacy of religious mythology is that in my experience and training and observation it does people tremendous harm and little good. It removes the idea of personal responsibiliy and instead encourages people to "pray for deliverance," or even worse to place the blame for their problems onto someone or something else. This feeling is ubiquitious in America today and is one of the major problems facing our nation.

I encourage people to leave fantasyland and come to the real world where their actions, choices and behaviors are what helps or hurts them. In therapy, when someone makes this realization tremendous things are accomplished. It's like the world is open for them for the first time. No longer is there a need to blame others or to pass the buck or to chalk things up to fate. People accept the idea that no invisible man in the sky is out to hurt them, but they can attirbute it to what it is - random fluctuations in te quantum foam. However, this realization also allows them to accept that their accomplishements and triumphs are not the result of fairy tales but are the result of their own effort.


As to the study cited earlier, you negelcted to mention the follow up to it, that showed that people who got sick again or who lived longer than expected typically lost their faith as they realized that fiction can't keep them alive.


Needless to say, I would never suggest to a devout client that they give up their religious beliefs. That would be awful and counterproductive. The mythology of the religions is a realization that many, particularly the intellectuals, come to on their own. For those who don't, if their faith can temporarily sustain them, more power to them.

Ultimately they are hurting themselves, (and others) but if it helps for the short term there's something to be said for that as well.


<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[CYYYFYYY]

I believe in G-d but I don't blieve in Bob Barker I
think he is computer generated like that new
movie!!!!!!!!!!


David the Franchize
Everyone Loves CYYYFYYY
Party Harty!!!!!!!

[HordeKing1]

If Bob Barker were computer generated, his movements and expressions would be more animated!

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[DarkHippie]

and let us all recite the holy Bob Barker mantra: "help control the pet population, have your pet spaded or neutered."

<IMG SRC=http://czmachine.50megs.com/images/dhsig1.gif>
<marquee>Who is DarkHippie? "You look like an Amish child molester"-- Jim Norton. "Watch out for this one. Someday he's gonna snap and kill you all."-- Rich Vos </marquee>
<i>LABELS ARE FOR PRODUCTS, NOT PEOPLE!
</i><a href=http://www.freeopendiary.com/entrylist.asp?authorcode=A537085>Transcendental Blues: a journal</a>

[Coco]

<i>The
mythology of the religions is a realization that many, particularly the
intellectuals, come to on their own.</i>

Unlike yourself I would never put anyone down for their beliefs even if they were atheists or imply that they were "unintellectual". Many, many brilliant people believe in God.

I agree with you on many things. Obviously, religion is not one of them, but I would not hate you for it or call you unintellectual, Horde King. These are only inflammatory statements and you know it.
______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive







This message was edited by Coco on 9-8-02 @ 2:19 PM

[HordeKing1]

COCO - I didn't say that only intellectuals are atheists, only that many are and come to the realization on their own breaking free of their childhood brainwashing.

You are quite wrong about Einsteing by the way. He was quite the atheist. Read his biography as well as the comments about him by his compatriots like Oppenheimer.

Here are some quotes from Einstein and other intellectuals on this topic. There are many, many more - far too numerous to list.

Albert Einstein (Autobiographical Notes) -
"The contemplation of this world beckoned as a liberation...The road to this paradise was not as comfortable and alluring as the road to the religious paradise; but it has shown itself reliable, and I have never regretted having chosen it."

Albert Einstein (on the notion of a "soul) - "Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning."

Albert Einstein - "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Henry Louis Mencken -"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration--courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and, above all, love of the truth."

Huang Po - "The foolish reject what they see and not what they think;
the wise reject what they think and not what they see."

Voltaire - "Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense."

Robert Ingersoll - "Our ignorance is God; what we know is science."

"Only the fool says in his heart: There is no god -- The wise says it to the world"

Mikhail Bakunin - "I reverse the phrase of Voltaire, and say that if God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish him." (Voltaire was one of the better known philosophers who acknowledged that we create god)

Bertrand Russell - "I wish to propose for the reader's favourable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true."

David Brooks (The Necessity of Atheism) -
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy."

Tage Danielsson (re theists) - "Without doubt you are not sane."

Napoleon Bonaparte -"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."

Richard Dawkins (The Humanist, Vol. 57, No. 1) - "It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, "mad cow" disease, and many others, but I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate."

John Adams - "This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it"

Robert Ingersoll - "I do not see how it is possible for an intelligent human being to conclude that the Song of Solomon is the work of God, and that the tragedy of Lear was the work of an uninspired man."

Carl Sagan - "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

Gene Roddenberry - "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."

E.T. Babinski - "My spell-checker lacks the word 'creationism' in its dictionary, so each time that word is encountered, an alternative pops up at the bottom of my screen, 'cretinism'"

Thomas Jefferson (Letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787) - "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason t

[Hawiian shirt craig]

imagine how long it would take
to type taht with your toes.....


-Hawiian Shirt Craig
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!!

<img src="http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/HSC.gif">

[DC Reed]

Really God is a Plastic Deer you buy at the hunting store.

<IMG SRC="http://www.fezwatley.4t.com/images/milk.jpg"

SINCE WHEN DID THE JAPANESE DRINK MILK!?

[TheMojoPin]

"God...is dead."

"And he was really, really tiny!"

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/themojopin.jpg>
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
-TMP

[Death Metal Moe]

BEWARE OF GOD

HAHAHA! how gay.

Anyway, I guess Hordey REALLY feels strongly about this topic! That's a lot of typing, finger or toes.

Anyway, Ron and Fez are GOD. Big Gay Hawk and Rory are like desciples, and Billy is constantly turning Water into Wine.

<IMG SRC=http://unhallowed.com/sigs/deathfaction.gif>
www.unhallowed.com
<marquee>People's chioce: MOST VULGAR POSTER!! FUCK YEA!!</marquee>

[Trainspotting]

Atheism can be viewed as a religion, like any -ism. For non judeo-christian cultures, belief in the supernatural is far from comforting. Some people in the east believe that certain entities are sources of mischief or a messengers of an idea rather than embodying an idea. Just as
some may say that religion is a form of social control, maybe antheism is a form of social control as well. In the Soviet Union and in Nazi Germany, the leaders became objects of worship who feared their citizens answering to a higher power than themselves. If one believes only in what they can touch or taste, it still is a belief (an opinion).
My view is that one can't prove or dissprove religion, it's too complex to be always dismissed as a fairy tale.


See ya!
Trainspotting

[CYYYFYYY]

I notice how the Horde king is avoiding the fact that
Bob Hope does not exist!!!!!!!!


David the Franchize
Everyone Loves CYYYFYYY
Party Harty!!!!!!!

[The Blowhard]

HK, it seems that you are not very tolerant of those who practice religion and believe. That's your opinion.
However, in another post you said "Jesus, Satan, etc..what's the difference"?
That is insulting to Christians. Where is the tolerance? And it's obvious that your children are being raised Jewish(I saw the pics on your site). Do you tell them that Moses is the same as Satan, and that their faith is a fairytale?
I think tolerance is the key here, and Christian bashing is wrong. You defend Homosexuals and Abortionists, why not defend decent people of ALL faiths?

<center><img src=http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hecksig></center>
<center> [/b]</center>

[HordeKing1]

HECKLER - Read my earlier post again. I lumped judaic, christian, pagan and satanic gods together. All are equally harmful to the individual and to society at large. There's nothing special about christianity that makes it more or less worthy a target than any other religion.

My wife (who is religious and orthodox) is raising the kids Jewish. I act as a deprogramer. It's a big source of conflict b/c I believe I'm doing them all harm. Yet, I love my wife and have agreed to this for her. I also am very discussion oriented in the meanings of religious dogma, alternate religious views of looking at the same thing, and ultimately, the ridiculous nature of supernatural belief. My kids are smart. When they get old enough I'm sure they'll make the decision that's correct for them. In the interum, they're getting religion from their mother, and common sense and rationality from me.

Finally, unlike all religions, homosexuals and abortionists never hurt anyone or waged war in name of god or tortured people in his name or did anything other than promote basic human dignity. Unfortunately, this fundemental concept is lacking from religious belief.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[The Blowhard]

HECKLER - Read my earlier post again. I lumped judaic, christian, pagan and satanic gods together. All are equally harmful to the individual and to society at large. There's nothing special about christianity that makes it more or less worthy a target than any other religion.



You are making a sweeping generalization of all religions HK.
My religion does not tell me to crash a plane into a building, or to veil my women. Extremism is bad no matter what religion.
I think the youth of today could benefit from the 10 Commandments, and practice the "Golden Rule".
I think most people can use religion as a "moral compass", is it really that bad? Teaching love and forgiveness..is that a bad thing? I have nothing but contempt for those who use religion as a basis to hurt and kill others, or to use the pulpit for political gain.


<center><img src=http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hecksig></center>
<center> [/b]</center>

[Coco]

I did not want to use Albert Einstein as a model because his thoughts on religion and God were very ambiguous. I also did not want to use him as a model as he was the one who wrote President Roosevelt a letter urging him to have the atomic bomb made. But, anyway, here are some of his quotes:

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
_Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium_ (1941) ch. 13

"I want to know God's thoughts,..... the rest are details.."

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."


I know numerous intellectuals who are also very religious. I know that one can not even become a Jesuit priest without a phd. And, who can forget our current Pope John Paul II who speaks 8 languages fluently.

I believe in the quote from the Bible that "the fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom", but I also believe that our love for God is the very reason for our existence here.

______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive

[Pootertoot]

Atheism is not a religion, nor is it a belief system. It's just the absence of belief in a higher power.

Maybe you're thinking of Secular Humanism, or the fact that the average portrayal of an atheist is someone that shakes their fist at god, like the Mole in the South Park movie.

Oh, and if there's one thing the religious aren't tolerant of, it's an atheist.

No matter how much you'd like to convince yourself otherwise, you don't respect the beliefs of others. I've tried to hammer this point in numerous times before, but no one pays attention, and everyone's self-righteous.

You laughed at Heaven's Gate before they killed themselves, maybe after, at the fact taht god was coming in a UFO behind a comet to take them all away.

You don't consider Greek or Norse mythology anything more than cute or quaint.

You probably HATE Christian Scientists when you hear that they had to rescue a young child from near death because the kid's parents didn't seek medical attention. If it was up to you, they wouldn't be allowed to have children.

I could go on and on, but I won't, because I'm sure at least one of you will cut and paste one of these and say "I didn't" and miss the point entirely because you won't admit to yourself that you don't blindly respect the beliefs of others as valid.

What you DO do, though, and yes, I said doodoo, is respect the believer. You respect the person who believes whatever, REGARDLESS of what they believe, you respect them as a human being, and give them the same courtesy that you give anyone else because they are, after all, a person.

And after you accept that you can stop accusing HK (and myself and anyone else who dares to speak out on the topic of religion) of attacking christians, your family, you, whatever, because he's not. He's dissecting their BELIEFS, not them, because at the end of the day we're all friends, regardless of what we pray or don't pray to at night.

I hope this was coherent enough to get through to a few of you. To those of you that don't, keep yelling at the wind.

Respect the believer, not the belief.

<center><embed src="http://www.geocities.com/slfcallednowhere/mario2.swf" width=300 height=100><br>
Take a Chance, Take a Chance
</center>

[Coco]

<i>My wife (who is religious and orthodox) is raising the kids Jewish. I act as a deprogramer. It's a big source of conflict b/c I believe I'm doing them all harm. </i>

You are "doing them all harm"? Horde King, I assume this is a Freudian slip?

(Just kidding Horde King. I only would want to see everyone respect everyone else's beliefs.)
______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive



This message was edited by Coco on 9-9-02 @ 5:22 PM

[HordeKing1]

COCO - I thought my wording was plain that the harm that I am doing them is allowing to be polluted by religious nonsense.

Read Pooter's post for a very common sense and factual viewpoint. I stated the same regarding how the religious of today have no problem regarding the relgions of other cultures (i.e. the Greeks) as mythology.

One day, if our species survives, your decendants will do the same for your religion. Whether they will laugh it off as mythology or the arrogance and insecurity of a young species (or form a new religion of their own) remains to be seen.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[Knowledged_one]

I agree with Horde King here, religion is basically an opiate for the masses, it gives the downtrodden and poor and those without anything in life to look forward to something to hope for after death.
Also on the topic of God: I find it difficult to believe in the theory of God because of what people idolize as a god. Do people who idolize serpents and crocodiles and such believe in the same god as everyone else know but they believe in something which is what the basic purpose is, to believe in something.
Also when you consider that many people worship a so called god from the sky which as far out as it may seem could be mistaken for other worldly life (when considering the age of the Earth with that of the universe it isnt that far fetched). People in the beginning of civilization were dumber because of brain size and what they took as a god could have been an alien ship visiting. How else can you explain that seperate tribes in Africas Nile river area and a tribe of people from the mountains of South America had identical images of what their god was, when they had no prior connection as it was impossible at the time for any vessel to sail the whole atlantic ocean and no trade was possible, yet they had identical visages of the idol, and no explanation should be made.
I also suggest, you should state your opinion on the matter then ask your question, because you basically waited for his opinion in order to attack his answer if it did not mesh with your thought. But i will agree that when asking a serious question of someone and people turn it into a joke and get off topic is equally ridiculous on your part. I feel if you have nothing to add why bother posting

Eat a Bag of Dicks

[Death Metal Moe]

Here's a Sweeping Generalization:

People who believe in GOD are RETARDS.

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[Coco]

Horde King: The next time you make despairingly remarks about Christianity, while you are uttering this, remember that it is primarily because of Christian dominated nations such as the U.S., England and other European nations that Israel remains intact today and hasn't been toppled many years ago.


______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive



This message was edited by Coco on 9-11-02 @ 10:36 AM

[HordeKing1]

COCO - I don't even know where to begin critiquing this massively flawed statement, so here's a few salient points.

1. The correct statement is "without Jews there would be no Christians."

2. Without Jews there would be no US, England and the like.

2. Christians (even exluding the Nazi's) have been responsible for more Jewish death throughout history than any other group.

3. Without Christianity, Moslems, and all the other wacky religions (INCLUCING JUDAISM) there would be no need to protect Israel. Indeed, the geopolitical boundries we know would not exist.

4. If you want to worship a god or gods (I didn't forget that it's ok to call the deeply held religious belief of polytheistic cultures mythological) or satan or something else that you created, or even something real like a rock or a tree, that's your right. Ultimately I believe that it does great harm both to you and certainly to those around you, as religious people ALWAYS seek to impose their views of morality on others.

And on a related note, thanks to the political action of planned parenthood (which I'm active in) and other pro female groups, the Senate Judiciary Committee voted to defeat the nomination of anti-choice judge Priscilla Owen to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. Owen was the nutjob who advocated getting rid of Roe vs. Wade, and other basic rights of women.

I don't think less of you or anyone religious for their beliefs. I do however, feel that the belief itself is foolish. As POOTERTOOT eloquently put it, I respect the believer but not the belief.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[Coco]

<i>1. The correct statement is "without Jews there would be no Christians."</i>

Of course I know this.

<i>2. Without Jews there would be no US, England and the like</i>

I am not sure about the truthfulness of this statement. How do you come by that?

<i>2. Christians (even exluding the Nazi's) have been responsible for more Jewish death throughout history than any other group.</i>

Christians have been persecuted as well throughout time. From the Roman coliseum days even up until today where they are being persecuted in China, Africa and in Arab nations.

Everyone knows Hitler was an atrocity. (If he were aborted as a baby, it would have been the one abortion I would have partied over.) I don't consider him a Christian in any sense of the word, nor did he have any Christian values. I don't blame the entire German nation for one man's warped values. Germany will FOREVER be scarred because of this man's actions. He was an absolute disgrace.

To be perfectly honest, Horde King, the Jews have not always been "lily white" themselves. One need only open the Old Testament and read how the Jews of yesteryear destroyed thousands upon thousands of those not of their faith. I am not saying this to cause any anomosity, but to have an intelligent conversation, all truth must be brought into light. We are all guilty of lapses in clear judgment.

<i>3. Without Christianity, Moslems, and all the other wacky religions (INCLUCING JUDAISM) there would be no need to protect Israel. Indeed, the geopolitical boundries we know would not exist.</i>

In today's world, as you know, MOST of the nations on earth are vulnerable to attack, even our own.

Again, there is no denying my statement that it is primarily because of Christian dominated nations such as the U.S., England and other European nations that Israel remains intact today and hasn't been toppled many years ago.

<u>By the way, I love Israel primarily because of my Christianity as I realize that Israel is the very root and foundation of my faith. I look at as, that to dislike Israel would be hating my own forefather and I think most "enlightened Christians" look at it this way also. I agree that our nation should do everything to protect Israel. </u>

<i>I don't think less of you or anyone religious for their beliefs. I do however, feel that the belief itself is foolish. As POOTERTOOT eloquently put it, I respect the believer but not the belief.</i>

Believe it or not, I don't think less of you either for your beliefs.



______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive



This message was edited by Coco on 9-11-02 @ 11:31 AM

[HordeKing1]

COCO - "Without Jews there would be no US, England and the like." This is the topic of much historical spectulation and I refer you to books of this nature that can better or more fully explain it. Nonetheless, I think I can support this assertion. As you acknowledge, without Jews there would be no Christians. Without the Christian religion, Rome would have remained a Pagan state and never have fallen. Instead they would have spread accross Europe and probably the rest of the world as well. State sponsored Christianity proved far more expensive to maintain than paganism. The funds used to prop up the religion were diverted from the army, and civil and public works. (Aside from religious buildings). Without the economic crisis Rome faced in the 4th century, the kingdom would not have been divided into two parts. Although this was dome amicably, it created a schism in the population of Rome b/w East and West, with the East becoming more prosperous (and historically, lasting longer, than the western kingdom).

Additionally, even after Christianity spread accross Rome there were still large schismz between Christians and Pagan loyalists. These scisms, almost insurrections (Since Christianity was state sponsored) necessitated armed intervention by the govt, which took troops away from the front. Finally, Christianity is much less patriotic a religion than Paganism, as the allegience in Christianity is to God first than state. All these factors show why Chritianity contributed if not outright caused the fall of the Roman empire and the settlement of the continent by other groups and the formation of other nations.

I'm disturbed by your comments about Hitler and Germans. Hitler was of course a madman, but he had the full support of the entire German populace. Every citizen knew what was going on from the doctors (the most Nazified of all professions) to the factory workers who smelled the stench of burning flesh permenantly entrenched around their homes, not far from the camps.

And Hitler considered himself a good Christian. More distrubing, is that (and I'm suprised you don't know this) is the action of the most inappropriately named "pious XII" otherwise known as "Hitler's Pope." He was a supporter of Hitler's liquidation program and tried to ally the church with Hitler very early on. It took the Vatican over 55 years, but they recently appologized to Israel (not to the 6 million killed) for pious's behavior during the Holocaust and acknowledged the Church's complacency in what transpired. The church, like the german citizens knew what was going on. Not only did they say nothing, they supported it. I guess you would call this making a pact with the devil. If you aren't familiar with this topic I recomend the book "Hitler's Pope by John Cornwell.

I have no problem with your accurately reporting that the Old Testament is full of stories of mass bloodbaths in the name of God. In fact I draw attention to it. It supports my central thesis that every religion is wacky, not just one or two. They are ALL BAD. The thing I take exception to is how you describe these murders as "lapses in judgement." They weren't lapses in judgement. They were deliberate acts to seek and slay the evil heathens with different beliefs in the name of god. God sure likes blood and violence.


From a strict purely technical viewpoint Israel cannot survive without the sponsorship of the superpower U.S. a Christian country. My point is that without religions there would be no jews, christians, moslems, budhists, etc. With this prime source of hate eliminated from the world, there would be no need for these countries to fight. There would be no US anyway, at least not recognizable as such, as I showed above. The indiginous north and south American population would have been most greatful for the elimination of religious zelotry as the genocidal campaign against them was again founded b/c of a silly religious arguement. Actually, it wasn't even an argument. A bible was handed to an chieftan who nev

[Coco]

I haven't read the book on Pope Pius XII. I don't like to comment until I have read everything on the subject. I know there were other books written debunking this one, including one written by Prof. Ronald J. Rychlak called, "Hitler, the War, and the Pope", but haven't read that one either.

I know Pope Pius XII was probably put in the most uncomfortable of all situations of any Pope in history - with an intimidating maniac of a ruler who lived practically next door to him, who also invaded his (the Pope's) own country. I do know that Italy hid and rescued thousands of Jews. More than half the Jews of Rome were sheltered in ecclesiastical buildings opened on the express instructions of Piux XII himself. Of course, there were probably things done wrong, but I can only hope that the Church can learn from any mistakes it has made in the past and that relations with Jews in the future can always be on good terms. I think this current pope has tried to bridge gaps.

<i>And Hitler considered himself a good Christian</i>
PLEASE! From what I have read he had no formal religious upbringing and was actually involved in the occult. The swastika is an occult symbol and he often used astrology during his years in power. Also, here are some facts about this good Christian: 3000 Catholic priests were murdered by the Nazis in Germany, Austria, Poland, France, and other countries; Catholic schools were shut down, Catholic publications were forced out of print or strictly censored, and Catholic churches were closed in many areas.

Following are some quotes from Hitler on Catholicism: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains," -- Adolf Hitler, 13 December 1941.
"So it's not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death," --Adolf Hitler, 14 October 1941.

The only thing I can hope for is that Catholics (and the world) can learn from atrocities that have happened in the past and to try and prevent them in the future.

<i>If I wanted to add a purely selfish third reason, I'd point out that more nobel lauretes in medicine and other sciences are produced per capita in Israel than most other countries</i>

The world is aware of the tremendous contributions the Jews have made in many areas and we will always be grateful to them for it.

______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive

[HordeKing1]

To deny the influence of Christianity on Hitler and its role in World War II, means that you must ignore history and bar yourself forever from understanding how this atrocity occurred.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

COCO - You cited two unnamed sources attibuted to Hitler. Here are some direct quotes from Mein Kampf, The New Order and other sources straight from the horses mouth. The source is listed at the end of the quote.

I also strongly urge you to take a look at the two links at the end of this post. You may find the first links (pictures) particularly illuminating. Would you be surprised to see Hitler being cheered by the Bishops of Germany? or praying at a church? or the two way enthusiastic embrace of his catholisism and the final solution?

1. "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." (Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65.)

2. "The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will." (Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 562.)

3. "For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: `Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: `Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!'" (Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, pp. 632-633.)

4. "Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise." (Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 383.)

5. "The anti-Semitism of the new Christian Social movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge." (Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 119.)

6. "It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god."
(Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 436.)

7. "This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief." (Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 152.)

8. "It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world." (Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 403.)

9. "National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State. For their part the churches cannot for a second doubt that they need the protection of the State, and that only through the State can they be enabled to fulfill their religious mission. Indeed, the churches demand this protection from the State." (Adolf Hitl

[Coco]

Horde King: What Hitler did was that he took versus out of scripture and together with his own distorted life view of Christianity, WARPED AND TWISTED verus out of the Bible for his own purposes. A true Bible scholar would never interpret versus the way this man did. He would have been thrown out of any seminary. It was very insidious what he did - very evil. On top of that, the financial environment of Germany at the time was almost bankrupt. People there were very vulnerable. I think the people of Germany were more impressed with how he overturned Germany economically. I am not sure how much there were even interested in his twisted philosophical views.

When I think about the mess of World War II, I can only agree more with Pope John Paul II's, assessment and that is "never again".

______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive



This message was edited by Coco on 9-13-02 @ 2:10 PM

[Coco]

<i>COCO - You cited two unnamed sources attibuted to Hitler. </i>

Hitler may in public have claimed to be doing the will of God, but records of his private conversations show otherwise. Many of these were recorded by his secretary and published in a book called Hitler's Table Talk (Adolf Hitler, London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953).

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....

"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."


______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive

This message was edited by Coco on 9-13-02 @ 3:32 PM

[Death Metal Moe]

Can't we just talk about poop again?

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SUPER CALLER #666!!!

[TheMojoPin]

Can't we just talk about poop again?

I encountered an almost unflushable turd at work today. I go to pee, and some animal has left the toilet unlfushed. I hit the thingie, and everything goes down...except this turd the size of a mini-rolling pin. Took four flushes to get the thing down.

Shouldn't someone be dead after that?

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/themojopin.jpg>
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
-TMP

[Death Metal Moe]

I encountered an almost unflushable turd

HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

POOP RULZ!!!!!!!

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[CYYYFYYY]

The fact of the matter that
Hitler was twisted and he
turned the chritian religion
into something it was not....
the fact is he did use
religion which the Horde king
is bashing......


David the Franchize
Everyone Loves CYYYFYYY
Party Harty!!!!!!!

[seagullbeagle]

http://www.carm.org/atheism/atheistmistakes.htm <P>
and please dont say there is no god because im sure my dead hampster is in heaven waiting for me

<IMG SRC="http://www.seagullbeagle.50megs.com/images/headcrushersig.jpg">

In the aisle yelling fire....

This message was edited by seagullbeagle on 9-14-02 @ 10:22 PM

[HordeKing1]

CYYYFYYY - Yes. In addition, countless other maniacal people have used religion to justify large scale murder and/or genocide.

In addition, in many cases the church itself is the instigator (As in the crusades and the inquisition).

In the case of Nazi Germany, the catholic church enthusiastically supported Hitler.

"Just" another attrocity committed in the name of AND SANCTIONED BY a religious institution.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[HordeKing1]

SEAGULLBEAGLE - Go figure.

A Christian group whose stated purpose is to "equip Christians with good information on doctrine, various religious groups (Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.), cults, Evolution, New Age, and related subjects" believes atheists are mistaken.

(Go to the homepage of the webpage you linked for more info about this religious organization who believes in religion. What a concept. Next they'll have you believe that their recent drive for contributions has nothing to do with the billions they'll have to pay out for decades of raping little boys with full knowledge of the church leaders.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[Coco]

<i>In addition, in many cases the church itself is the instigator (As in the crusades and the inquisition).</i>

The Church has recognized its mistakes and Paul John Paul II publically apologized for past mistakes. It is unfortunate that people are unwilling to forgive. Horde King: I noticed you left out the countless thousands slaughtered by the Jews in older times.

<i>In the case of Nazi Germany, the catholic church enthusiastically supported Hitler.</i>

I am not sure of evidence that indicated that Pope Piux was FULLY apprised of the atrocities going on in those camps. Again, I feel this Pope was put in an awful position of having a maniac living next door to him, and also knowing at the same time full well that his own country (Italy) could have been toppled by this man almost instantly. The pope is a religious leader, not a general in charge of troups. Also, what should also be pointed out, is the fact that it was primarily the U.S. and England (Christian dominated countries) that put a stop to World War II and the atrocities.

Again, Pope John Paul II has apologized for any mistakes the Church may have made during this period.

I just feel it is time to act like brothers (because essentially we are) especially with what is going on now in the Middle East.






______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive

[A.J.]

Again, I feel this Pope was put in an awful position of having a maniac living next door to him, and also knowing at the same time full well that his own country (Italy) could have been toppled by this man almost instantly. The pope is a religious leader, not a general in charge of troups.


Technically, the Pope is also a Head of State as the Holy See/Vatican City is its own nation. This came to pass as the result of the Lateran Treaty of 1929 which was signed by Italian leader Benito Mussolini. The Pope commands the Vatican Guard.

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/pentsig.jpg">

[ADF]

Hmm.. I wonder what will become of the Horde King?

<img src = http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/hockey.jpg>

<img src = http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/davesig.gif>

[HordeKing1]

Same as everyone on earth. When I die, I'll decompose and that's it.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[DC Reed]

I belive that when you die you see black, much like when you sleep. I enjoy sleeping and so i probably wont not enjoy death.

<IMG SRC="http://www.fezwatley.4t.com/images/milk.jpg"

SINCE WHEN DID THE JAPANESE DRINK MILK!?

[ADF]

Same as everyone on earth. When I die, I'll decompose and that's it.


Yeah, I know.. I just wanted to use that new sigpic I made. It's my fav-o-rite.

<img src = http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/davesig.gif>