What if a....

[PanterA]

....tree fell in the forrest with nobody around for miles and miles to hear it, would it still make a sound?

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[TomPoo]

Yes.


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This message was edited by TomPoo on 6-20-01 @ 8:32 AM

[Pootertoot]

What if it fell on an orphanage which had been emptied so the kids could get their yearly vaccinations at the local clinic and no one was around to hear it?

That would be pretty funny.

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[HordeKing1]

It's been long established that the mere act of observing something changes the outcome. (To greatly simplify) we know from observation that A + B yields reaction C. When not observed A + B might yield D. The converse holds true as well.

(Metaphysicists have been looking for years for the definitive archetypal most basic objective reality. Personally, I feel we're generations away from this if it can be done at all.)

Hearing the tree fall clearly demonstrates a sound. Can you devise an experiment to measure sound w/o letting on to objective reality that something is being measured?

A bit more complex than a simple yes or no answer.

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[TomPoo]

Put a tape recorder out there, leave, come back play it, and you will hear a the sound of a tree falling.



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----TomPoo

[HordeKing1]

TOM- That's still an act of observation and as such will change the results.

This phenomenom isn't readily apparant on a mascrocosmic level, so we aren't very aware or how we change things. It was first seen on a microcosmic level following which the macrocosmic laws were extrapoltated.



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[TomPoo]

HordeKing,

No comprende amigo...

Can you please explain using smaller words.

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Ask the tree. If it answers, the sound of it falling is the least of your concerns.

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[steel333]

What if the tree falls on a guy and kills him when he's alone. Did he hear a sound? Maybe that's a form of observation then so that wouldn't work, but how about his breaking body after he died. Would his bones make any sound as they got crushed under a two ton tree without anyone around to hear it? But then how could the tree make a falling sound but his body not make a sound after it broke in half? Does sound just suddenly stop? I don't think so.. so maybe a tree makes a sound i don't know! my head hurts...

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[HordeKing1]

TOM - Einstein's Theories work great in the macroverse (the big observable universe involving the space time continuem.

Einsteins theory of relativity shows that in a vaccum, light travels at the same speed in all directions. In addition light travels at 186,000 miles per second and that this is the ultimate speed limit, as at relativistic speeds, velocity turns into mass.

We've also learned that there is a microverse, composed of particles so tiny that it takes very complex methods to detect them at all. The field of qunatum mechanics was invented to describe the interactions of these particles.

The problem w/relatvity and quantum mechanics is that they don't work together. The math describing one cannot describe the others.

In order to reconcile these two theories superstring theories were developed. Supersting theories succesfully bridge the gap b/w the two. Only problem is that there must be at least 9 dimensions in order for it to work but that's a whole nother story)

On either the macro or quantum level, observing anything, no matter how trivial changes the outcome of the event as described in my last post.

I certainly concede that it's not an easy concept to understand. I don't remember which phsyisist said this but it was along the lines of "nobody understands quantum physics." The principles are unbelievably hard to grasp.

But, one of the laws, that has been demonstated time and time again, is that observing something changes it's outcome. Photons refract instead of reflect, reactions change, effect doesn't always follow cause.

In addition to the physcis problems inherent in determining whether a tree falling would make a sound without a person to hear it, there are metaphysical and philosophical aruguments against it.

Most deal with the nature of reality and whether there are universal memes. Can things be boiled down to their most primitive (and pure) forms? Can objects exist independantly of intelligence to assing a reality to them. What exactly is the nature of reality. Is it entirely objective, subjective or a mix of the two?

Intriguing questions. I hope that this answered your query.


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[steel333]

huh? i lost you after you said TOM

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[HordeKing1]

STEEL - Tree fall down. No one there. May or may not make sound.

Better?

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[Angelo from da Bronx]

At the risk of sounding stupid, I had the same problem steel. Luckily the King simplified it for us.

[PanterA]

Tree fall down. No one there. May or may not make sound

so that means it doesn't make a sound? geez i hate math. ;)

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[HordeKing1]

TOP - This question came up again


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[reeshy]

who gives a shit if it makes a sound- what are you doing in the woods on a weekday anyway? you should be working so you can pay your bills-
while we're at it- what are you doing at a message board- go to work!

i need a shower