WTO

[adolescentmasturbator]

I feel that it must be stopped because its goals are inherently evil. Supporting child labor, lower wages, and the goal of a global meritocracy among others really make me fear if the WTO becomes too powerful. But most people disagree with me on this. What do you people think?

[HordeKing1]

ADOLESCENTMASTURBATOR - I strongly disagree.

The World Trade Organization or WTO is designed to be an international agency dealing with international rules of trade. It's stated purpose is to promote free trade and to monitor and arbitrate trade disputes between member nations.

141 countries belong to the WTO, including the United States, a member since January 1, 1995.

There have been a number of reasons advanced towards why we should be in opposition to the WTO. Frankly none of them make a great deal of sense to me.

The WTO has accomplished much of it's stated goals. And member nations meet and constantly refine the goals. (low cost prescription medicine is currently on the table).

It's a forum for countries to resolve their differences by a democratic processs. (Actually, agreements are usually reached by consensus, which means that EVERYONE has to agree).

Free trade means less tariffs for the consumers (how low is negotiated by the member nations)

Free trade boosts economic growth and supports development.

The WTO protects endangered species and the environment

The WTO is directly responsible for providing jobs for more than 3 billion people and lifting them out of poverty

The WTO reduces the impact of special interest groups. **** This is the main reason why some US politicians oppose it. And when politicians oppose something they can't come out and say, we don't like it b/c we don't get as much kickbacks as we're used to. They instead paint a picture of the organization as a big scary monster.

I've seen no evidence of that. Perhaps you have.

Anyone else want to weigh in with their opinions?



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[adolescentmasturbator]

Here is what Noam Chomsky says and I think it helps explain...

p.s sorry if it is a bit long

[quote]Its the first time I ever heard of that--does the U.S. have a push for sustainable
development? As far as I know, the U.S. push is for unsustainable nondevelopment. The
programs that are built into U.S policy, take a look at the World Trade Organization rules,
like, say, TRIPs and TRIMs--Trade-Related Intellectual Property and Trade-Related
Investment Measures are designed to impede development and impede growth. So the
intellectual property rights are just protection of monopolistic pricing and control,
guaranteeing that corporations, in fact, by now, megacorporations, have the right to
charge monopolistic prices, guaranteeing, say, that pharmaceutical production drugs will be
priced at a level at which most of the world can't afford them, even people here. For
example, drugs in the U.S. are much more expensive than the same drugs as close as
Canada, even more expensive than say, Europe, and for the third world this just dooms
millions of people to death.

Other countries can produce the drugs. And under earlier patent regimes, you had process
patents. I don't even know if those are legitimate, but process patents meant that if some
pharmaceutical company figured out a way to produce a drug, somebody smarter could
figure out a better way to produce it because all that was patented was the process. So, if
the Brazilian pharmaceutical industry figured out a way to make it cheaper and better, fine,
they could do it. It wouldn't violate patents. The World Trade Organization regime insists
instead on product patents, so you can't figure out a smarter process. Notice that impedes
growth, and development and is intended to. It's intended to cut back innovation,
growth, and development and to maintain extremely high profits.

Well, the pharmaceutical corporations and others claim they need this so they can recoup
the costs of research and development. But have a close look. A very substantial part of
the research and development is paid for by the public anyway. In a narrow sense, it's on
the order of 40-50%. But that' s an underestimate, because it doesn't count the basic
biology and the basic science, which is all publicly funded. So if you get a realistic amount,
it' s a very high percentage that's publicly paid anyway. Well, suppose that went to 100%.
Then all the motivation for monopolistic pricing would be gone, and there'd be a huge
welfare benefit to it. There's no justifiable economic motive for not doing this. There's
some economic motive, profit, but it is an effort to impede growth and development.

But what about Trade-Related Investment Measures? What do they do? TRIPS is straight
protectionism for the benefit of the rich and powerful, through publicly subsidized
corporations. TRIMs are a little more subtle. What they require is that a country cannot

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[adolescentmasturbator]

Join the resistance against the WTO!

I will get a sig pic...eventually

[girl germs is dead]

<i>"Join the resistance against the WTO!"</i>

i don't think you'll accomplish anything by sitting at home while
listening to rage against the machine.

if you want to resist, get informed about the real shit that is going on behind our government's closed doors.

the wto is still a threat, but what is an even bigger threat right now, in my opinion, is the ftaa (free trade area of the americas). the ftaa is an extension of the rules brought forth by nafta. the ftaa can only do harm. under the ftaa, the already exploited worker will only be exploited some more, but the ftaa will only make it ok. it's the worker who produces and manufactures and busts his/her balls doing all the shit work for a shitty wage, but nobody gives a damn. under the ftaa those who are at the bottom of the barrel will fuckin stay there and die because nobody gives a damn.

nafta, wto, ftaa, mai, etc...all of these agreements only make corporate rule ok and weaken democracy and harm the world's working class (even though they want us to believe otherwise). it's a fuckin joke. free trade zones are a big fuckin joke. capitalism is a big fuckin joke, but it doesn't matter, not as long as there is a profit being made at the end of the day.

it's as if they are trading human lives. they also don't give a damn about the environment, and that was pretty obvious when nafta went into effect.

<a href="http://www.tradewatch.org/FTAA/ftaafactsheet.htm">here</a>

adolescentmasturbator, if most people disagree with you on this then they are complete assholes and they will eventually burn in hell. a good kick in the head should serve them good.

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[The Blowhard]

Welcome back Germs! Now only if you would go back to your real name...phony names are bad.
Regarding the WTO, there is not much you can do. Putting on a ski mask and breaking a window of a Starbucks is a waste of time. Besides, if you eliminate low wages in 3rd world countries you will be paying 20 bucks for a head of lettuce, and 300 bucks for Nikes. This is Capitalism people, and life is not fair. Money makes the world go round...the sooner you realize that the better.

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[adolescentmasturbator]

i don't think you'll accomplish anything by sitting at home while
listening to rage against the machine.

For you info rage wasn't what got me into this. BTW I'm accomplishing a lot by bringing it out into discussion at least.

I agree with you that the FTAA is highly dangerous. But what makes it even more dangerous is that the WTO is there to spread its ideals across the globe.

In my opinion if free trade means oppressiveness then I don't want trade to be free.

adolescentmasturbator, if most people disagree with you on this then they are complete assholes and they will eventually burn in hell. a good kick in the head should serve them good.

I feel that most people are severly misinformed on this issue. It's our job to get out the facts.

Welcome back Germs! Now only if you would go back to your real name...phony names are bad.
Regarding the WTO, there is not much you can do. Putting on a ski mask and breaking a window of a Starbucks is a waste of time. Besides, if you eliminate low wages in 3rd world countries you will be paying 20 bucks for a head of lettuce, and 300 bucks for Nikes. This is Capitalism people, and life is not fair. Money makes the world go round...the sooner you realize that the better.

Well it is just wrong to allow 10 year olds to slave away 7 days a week for 14 hours just because i want cheaper sneakers.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

[The Blowhard]

I'm sure that your hearts in the right place Bator but it's an evil world and I think that if you want to destroy the standard of living in the United States, well, that's not going to happen. Corporations control the world, and that's the cruel reality. Sad but true.

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[adolescentmasturbator]

I know Heckler but we cannot let them trample all over us. Because if they do all our rights will be taken away for a profit.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

[HordeKing1]

The more posts I read about the WTO, the more convinced I am that people do not understand what it's all about or what it has actually accomplished.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, and one is no more valid than another.

However, I cannot help but wonder how these opinions were formed. Are they merely slogans and rhetoric heard on TV or espoused by politicians opposed to the WTO (b/c it eliminates a major source of campaign contributions for them?) Or are these opinions formed with full understanding of the issues involved and the costs and benefits of the organization?



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[adolescentmasturbator]

HK on tv opponents of the wto are portrayed as "silly anarchists." And that simply isn't the truth. Here are some facts to rebut some of your statements.

(low cost prescription medicine is currently on the table).

Take intelluctual property regulations that would in place with these treaties. With it generic and cheaper versions of medicines cannot be created or even rented. So cost is dictated by corporations that will of course will leave the product out of the hands of the poor.

It's a forum for countries to resolve their differences by a democratic processs. (Actually, agreements are usually reached by consensus, which means that EVERYONE has to agree).

The WTO supercedes laws. For example enviromental acts have been revoked and weakened because corporations complained and changed laws passed by congress! This happens all over the world.

Free trade boosts economic growth and supports development.

It supports the growth and developement of large corporations. Under these agrements companies would go to countries where labor laws are weak and use labor cheaper than ever. Now only does this affect workers negatively but small farmers and small business owners get displaced by the more powerful.

The WTO protects endangered species and the environment

The WTO has done much to do the opposite. For example it has done several acts to supersede endangered species and enviromental acts in the US to either overturn or severely weaken them. This because member nations complained because they had to change their practices to comply with US laws.

The WTO is directly responsible for providing jobs for more than 3 billion people and lifting them out of poverty

You cannot be serious with that number? In only 5 years that is an impossible task. The WTO displaces workers yin countries for cheaper workers and then causes unemployment for smaller "dogs". Workers would go from middle class to poverty very quickly.

The WTO reduces the impact of special interest groups. **** This is the main reason why some US politicians oppose it. And when politicians oppose something they can't come out and say, we don't like it b/c we don't get as much kickbacks as we're used to. They instead paint a picture of the organization as a big scary monster.

It is undisputable that politicians help coporations because of kickbacks. But the WTO is helping corporations on a much grander scale. One politician is mild. But affecting the policies of an entire organization that affects the world's economic policies is amazing.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

[HordeKing1]

ADOLESCENT MASTRABATOR - Might I inquire as to the source of your information?

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[girl germs is dead]

<i>""However, I cannot help but wonder how these opinions were formed."</i>

hordeking, i think it's better to have an opinion than to not have one at all. the world is run by opinion.

<i>""Are they merely slogans and rhetoric heard on TV or espoused by politicians
opposed to the WTO (b/c it eliminates a major source of campaign contributions for them?) Or are these opinions formed with full understanding of the issues
involved and the costs and benefits of the organization?"</i>

in a way, i really don't care how people's opinions are formed. what matters more to me is that that person is genuine with his/her beliefs and that that person constantly tries to stay informed of what is really going on.

i'm not just talking about the wto. i am against a lot of things. i am for and support other things. so, maybe i heard somebody say, "capitalism sucks" on free speech tv. maybe i heard noam chomsky on the radio. maybe i saw a great documentary on sweatshops. after that i might have said to myself, "i hate sweatshops. they suck." i formed an opinion. i think that's good. what would suck is if i a) would have done nothing to further learn about what i saw in that documentary and b) would have run to the mall the next day to buy some guess jeans, nike sneakers, and some stupid little thingamajig from claire's.

wearing a spice girls "girl power" button (by the way, buttons are stupid) on my jacket is not enough if i am not constantly thinking about how the media portrays women or if i don't support my other friends or if i am not constantly telling myself and my other ladyfriends how much we rule because we don't let ourselves be brainwashed by the media, don't follow the standards they set, don't follow their stupid mentality, etc...

if somebody is going to devalue my opinion because they see it as pathetic rambling, i don't give a fuck because i know that i am doing my best at keeping myself informed with what's going on.

be opinionated, but also keep yourself informed. i think that's the easiest way to resist.

adolescentmasturbator, i can relate with you because i, too, am an adolescent masturbator.

may i suggest something? yes, i may. if you want to learn more about the wto there's this book/pamphlet called "the wto: five years of reason to resist corporate globalization." it's a fast read and it's pretty informative. have you heard of revolution books? it's a great bookstore in manhattan (19th st. btw 5th or 6th and union square), they host readings, they table at political events, have guest speakers, etc...and i think they have the book i just mentioned. if not, they can probably order it for you. if you're ever in the city, stop by that bookstore. they carry stuff by chomsky too.

haha, ok. i don't think i'm making any sense right now. i'm pretty tired. i'm gonna go post about yeast infections and smoking now. bye.






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[adolescentmasturbator]

HordeKing you can get many of these stories from Reuters.

Please understand that we aren't some kid with an anarchy patch without even knowing of Proudhon or Bakunin. We aren't people that just pretend we are outside the normal stream of thought to be different and cool. Believe me there are I know people that pretend they are Communists yet they don't know who wrote the Manifesto.

Everywhere I go I see my peers buying into the hype and believing the lies because this is the "greatest" country in the world.

Girl Germs I have read that pamphlet really good read. I try to get to Revolution Books but its pretty hard for me to get into the City.

These ideas may be wrong and alien to you but now this. All great ideas in society have been introduced by Radicals. Democracy, the Abolitonist movement, Labor movements, ideas of peace have all been brought on by radicals.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

This message was edited by adolescentmasturbator on 7-9-01 @ 1:28 PM

[HordeKing1]

GIRLGERMS - I missed you and your insight.

If your opinion is merely parroting what you heard without any independant thought involved it is not your opinion.



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[HordeKing1]

ADOLESCENTMASTURBATOR -

You said "...we aren't some kid with an anarchy patch..." and "We aren't people that just pretend we are outside the normal stream of thought to be different and cool"

Who is this "we" of which you speak.

You also say that "All great ideas in society have been introduced by Radicals." I must disagree. Ideas are usually introduced by philosophers and other thinkers. The ideas are CARRIED out by the radicals.

I really enjoy this thread. And I value your opinions although I may disagree with them.

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[The Blowhard]

HK, it's my opinion that most squatters, Anarchists, rabble rousers and the rest are from wealthy or upper middle class families and feel guilty about their own pampered lives. The truly oppressed are those who work and are poor, and they don't have time to fly around city to city and wear ski masks, riot and chant rhetoric.
If people really want to help, work at a soup kitchen, help the ill and elderly and do something productive.
Breaking a window at Starbucks and protesting "the flavor of the month" cause is futile. Walk the walk, just don't talk the talk. Peace.

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[adolescentmasturbator]

When I said we I meant the far left hordeking.

Also most of the philosophers were radicals themselves.



HK, it's my opinion that most squatters, Anarchists, rabble rousers and the rest are from wealthy or upper middle class families and feel guilty about their own pampered lives.

Heckler I lived in Brooklyn for 7 years in a real shitty apartment. My parents busted their asses off and finally got up the ranks without no real help from the government. I was the lucky one because most don't.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

[HordeKing1]

HECKLER - Gotta agree with you.

It's similar to an observation that eating disorders are UNIQUE to rich industrialized countries. You just do not see ANY cases of anorexia or bulimia in countries like Somalia for example.


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