View Full Version : homosexuality: nature or nurture?
Patches
10-03-2002, 08:53 PM
I would think nature. But the major religions don't exactly promote it and if you believe solely in evolution, wouldnt those who did not procreate eventually be weeded out? I'm not too sure about nurture either; I mean who exactly raises their kids with the intention of them to be gay? And while I am at it, why are some homosexuals quite obviously homosexual and others you would have never guessed in a million years (I have friends who are gay and are to both extremes) Anyhoo...
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My guess has always been more of the nature, with a smidgeon of nurture (aka environment). All the gay guys I've ever talk to about it have always sort of "known" since they were little.
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blakjeezis
10-04-2002, 07:29 AM
There is nature involved. Studies show that identical twins, genetic duplicates, have higher rates of homosexuality in both twins than in fraternal twins. On the other hand, I firmly believe that some people choose to be gay, to be different or rebellious, to get back at their parents, or just 'cause they enjoy it, a fetish of sorts. I view it the same as someone who's into S & M, or likes to swing. It's not my bag, baby, but if you get off on it, cool.
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Sheeplovr
10-04-2002, 10:32 AM
My guess has always been more of the nature, with a smidgeon of nurture (aka environment). All the gay guys I've ever talk to about it have always sort of "known" since they were little.
what made you gay was it big bob?
and lets say its bolth then take a nap
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what made you gay was it big bob?
Hmm.. let's take a look at Big Bob's post on my guest book.
Wheres the Hot gay sex?? Rember me we met at that bar and you told me to go here to see hot gay sex then i told you how about you come back to my place for hot gay sex and so we did you made me pop like 3 roids but i only have this web adress you never gave me your number... keep in touch literally with love --big bob
Hmm.. the spelling and grammar looks vaguely familiar.. hmm...
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TheMojoPin
10-04-2002, 08:24 PM
I don't get it. Where's the hot, gaping bung-sex? Damn you people and your alluring thread titles...DAMN YOU...
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HordeKing1
10-04-2002, 08:28 PM
PATCHES - That's a great question and one that has vexed even early philosphers (Socrates and Aristotle for example), as well as pyschologists, scientists, femminists, and gender researchers as well as religious fanatics for many years.
If homosexuality is "nature" i.e. pretedermined by our genes and biological makeup, it means that homosexuals have no choice in their sexual preference and must be treated the same as anyone else born a particular way b/c of genes, like whites, or blacks, or people with red hair, etc. Needless to say the religious kooks hate this explanation as they know the "truth" that gays are "evil." But their theology teaches that evil cannot exist without choice of "good." Therefore they tend to summarily dismiss the genetic explanation
If homosexuality is not genetic and is instead an environmental "condition" brought about by Maralyn Manson, Howard Stern and video games or even worse by the choice of an individual, well that individual can be happily condemned for choosing an "immoral lifestyle."
This is what we understand about homosexuality. There is some genetic component to it, that is either present at birth or that is triggered by the environment. In other words, some people will be gay not matter what their enviornment. Some people have a genetic tendency for homosexuality that is expressed b/c of an environmental factor. In the same enviornment, a person without the genetic disposition towards homosexuality would not become gay b/c of their environment, unless perhaps they went into the priesthood....
Funny how the biggest offenders are the ones who seek to supress the urges of others and label it deviant.
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TheMojoPin
10-04-2002, 09:35 PM
HordeKing, is it possible that homosexuality ties in at all to hormonal imbalances? Or chromosones perhaps? Or is that more along the lines of a transsexual or hermaphrodite?
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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 10-5-02 @ 1:36 AM
HordeKing1
10-04-2002, 10:49 PM
To the best of my knowledge, no evidence of "hormonal imbalances" has ever been found in homosexuals.
"Chromosones" are another way of saying genes. (To be more precise genes are contained in chromosomes). As noted above, there is certainly a genetic component to homosexuality.
By the way, I didn't mention above, that homosexuality is not considered a mental illness unless it's ego dystonic, meaning that the person is gay but cannot accept this. The pathology isn't the homosexuality, it's the inability to deal with it.
A transexual (transgender) is a person who has persistent strong cross gender identification and has persistent discomfort with their own gender. They feel for example like a man trapped in a woman's body. They occassionaly go so far as to surgically change their external body features, from man to woman for example, to match what they feel is their true gender identity. They also cross dress. It is considered one of the "gender identity disorders" and it is extremely rare. In men it occurs about 1 in 70,000 and in women about 1 in 250,000. The way the media carries on about it, you'd figure it affected one in 10. Remember thought that gender identity and homosexuality are two completely different things.
Although animal studies have shown some small change in frequency of transexualism by changing the hormonal balance of the mother during pregnancy the cause of human transexualism is unknown. It is CERTAIN however, that gender identity of the opposite sex is not chosen any more than gender identity of the same sex.
There are several classes of hermaprodites. There is the "true hermaphrodite" with one testes and one ovary and a penis and vagin. Then there is a femalepsuedohermaprhodite who has external female genitalia, but has XY (male chromosomes). She is infertile and at puberty does not menstruate. (Ovaries are not present. Malepsuedohermaphrodites have a penis, and no vagina, but XX (female) chromosomes. They lack testes, and at puberty they do not develop secondary male sex characteristics. Needless to say, hermaphroditism is entirely genetic. The newborn, does not have any say in whether his or her sex organs match their chromosomes.
Almost universally, when a hermaphrodite is born, the infant undergoes surgery to make "him" into a her. The primary reason for this is becuase it's much easier to create a functioning vagina than a functioning penis.
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TheMojoPin
10-04-2002, 10:58 PM
To the best of my knowledge, no evidence of "hormonal imbalances" has ever been found in homosexuals.
Then let me ask this, and in the strictest sense of scientific curiosity and not slander, but can homosexuality be considered an "abnormality"? I mean, for a species to survive, or at least our species, a man has to procreate with a woman to produce a child. Since gays and lesbians cannot do this (Discounting adoption and other "procedures", obviously), it just doesn't seem to fit into nature's scheme of things. This isn't to say people can't be born homosexual, because I think they are, but it runs more along the line of the "imbalance" I was talking about.
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Perfect Drug
10-06-2002, 09:18 PM
I think its nurtue. Horde King, didn't a married couple who were psychologists get into some trouble for raising their kid in a box and conditioning him to be scared of rabbits?
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HordeKing1
10-06-2002, 10:08 PM
THEMOJOPIN - Mental health practicioners do NOT consider homosexuals "abnormal" or homosexuality, pathological.
It is normal.
PERFECTDRUG - I'm unaware of that "experiment" but needless to say it was highly unethical. It does go to show you that people can be conditioned to hate anything, or anyone, no matter how irrational the hatred - rabbits, gays, jews, intellectuals, scientists, atheists, etc.
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Patches
10-07-2002, 10:27 AM
HK-
Thanks. I am more informed but at the same time know even less :-)
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TheMojoPin
10-07-2002, 12:01 PM
THEMOJOPIN - Mental health practicioners do NOT consider homosexuals "abnormal" or homosexuality, pathological.
It is normal.
I'm not debating the mental issues here. Someone is born gay, it's who they are. I'm talking from a stance of "how nature works". You cannot have children as a homosexual. You can't reproduce. Sure, there are other avenues, but if there were suddenly a planet of nothing but homosexuals, it wouldn't last very long. So from THAT aspect, in terms of species survival and evolution, isn't it "abnormal" or a "mutation"? I'm not trying in any way to degrade homosexuals at all, I'm just looking at this from an evolutionary standpoint. I mean, it's like they survive through pure chance, since some people are born gay, and others aren't, with no rhyme or reason. I'm just curious, because it seems very precarious.
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ToddEVF
10-07-2002, 12:07 PM
If homosexuality is not genetic and is instead an environmental "condition" brought about by Maralyn Manson, Howard Stern and video games
Ok, everything is blamed on video games these days. I think is Nurture, because simily people in different enviroments will act differently. Like if someone is raise in a area where people do not care what happens, their sexual preferance may then be bi. does my example make sense at all?
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HordeKing1
10-07-2002, 05:10 PM
THEMOJOPIN - Your assertion that homosexuals cannot have children is inccorect.
Gays CAN and DO have children all the time. I'm sure you know that gays frequently marry heterosexual partners and have kids with them.
Even if one were to accept the ridiculous propsition that gays don't sire or have children, and assume that only heterosexuals marry each other, and even if we were to assume further that homosexuality is purely genetic, there would still be gay people. You may be confusing the genotype (the gene) with the phenotype (it's expression). The gene for homosexuality may be present even if the phenotype for it is not expressed in a particular individual.
Something else that is very important to consider is the fact that the incidence of homosexuality has remained pretty much a constant throughout history. It would be a reasonable assumption to assume that they serve an evolutionary purpose, such as the Native American Berdache who is viewed as a bridge between the sexes.
In short, homosexuality like heterosexuality and bisexuality has some genetic component to it and some environmental factors as well.
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TheMojoPin
10-07-2002, 06:40 PM
THEMOJOPIN - Your assertion that homosexuals cannot have children is inccorect.
Gays CAN and DO have children all the time. I'm sure you know that gays frequently marry heterosexual partners and have kids with them.
Obviously. But they need someone they're not naturally attracted to to procreate. Heterosexuals obviously also have desires to have sex, but we can naturally procreate. We can survive without homosexuals, but homosexuals can't survive without us.
Factors have developed in society and our surrounding environments that allow homosexuals many ways to have children and raise them happily, yadda-yadda-yadda, but you cut it down to the bare bones, if you have an extreme case where there are nothing but homosexuals, you have no children. Sure, if you have a mixture of lesbians and gays, then maybe they'll bite the bullet and "use" each other to procreate.
But let's use a "Garden of Eden"-like example. Perfectly liveable environment. You have 5 men and five women. Heterosexuals. Someone is going to have babies, if they want to or not. But if you have five guys and five guys or just five girls and five girls, well, they can bump all they want, but no kids are coming out. The species would die right there.
So does this mean that overall homosexuality is both natured AND nurtured? People are born gay, but the idea that there can even BE homosexuals is "nurtured" by an evironment that allows them ways to actually procreate, but it's not an environment they'd be able to survive in if they were the only species. Correct me if "species" is the wrong terminology.
EDIT-I just realized my conclusion ended up sounding almost the same as HK's last paragraph. Whoops.
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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 10-7-02 @ 10:51 PM
HordeKing1
10-09-2002, 11:39 AM
NP
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TheMojoPin
10-09-2002, 01:44 PM
http://www.fatchicksinpartyhats.com/images/16fathat102.jpg
But what does THAT mean?!?
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"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
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Lisa Croft
10-09-2002, 02:12 PM
Horde King, didn't a married couple who were psychologists get into some trouble for raising their kid in a box and conditioning him to be scared of rabbits?
Baby Alfred. Early wacko psychologist and his assistant used someone else's baby in experiments to test the theory of conditioning (the idea a human can be "taught" certain behaviors through repetition). They sat the kid down and let him pet a little white mouse. Every time he reached for it, they would smack 2 cymballs together behind his head and scare the shit out of him. Over time, he became deathly afraid of the white mouse, associating it with the loud, painful noise. Long story short, the kid grew up to not only fear white mice, but also white rabbits, white scarves, Santa's beard, etc. They could have deconditioned him but never did. Gotta love our founding fathers, HK.
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HordeKing1
10-09-2002, 09:20 PM
Yes I remember baby Alfie.
Using other people's kids is unconscionable but how can a parent willing perform strange experiments or test theories on their OWN kids? Yet, Doctors, psychologists, social and gender theorists, feminists, philosophers and scientists have been using themselves and their kids for things we now consider very highly unethical (and which would never be approved by any human subject review board).
I'm sure you're familiar with the famous "guards and prisoners" experiment and the experiment that simulated torture.
There are still plenty of very wacky things going on. For example, the "rebirthing" experience to accept adopted kids into the family (and for other purposes) Stupid idea that has actually caused deaths.
Fortunately, these whack jobs are in the minority. Even the whack jobs do an able job of demonstrating that people can be fucked up very easily by their environment and early childhood expeiriences.
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This message was edited by HordeKing1 on 10-10-02 @ 1:33 AM
Cybersoldier
10-13-2002, 05:45 PM
I think it nature, but the combination of both nurture and nature might led to homosexuality, depending on the individual
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