Is Armageddon coming?

[Patches]

Terrorists have attacked our greatest city and our capital over 1 year ago. We are no safer, and they are as dangerous as ever.

We are on the verge of war.

There is someone in our nation's capital killing innocent people with no rhyme or reason, and no one knows how to stop him.

Our economy is in terrible shape and showing no signs of recovery, while the leaders of corporate America, rip the last pennies out of our hands.

Our President is an imbecile.

The Angels are in the World Series.

I could have sworn I heard Roker call for locusts last night.


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Patches...Your Football Fantasy. (4-2, second place, tied).
Aggie on Patches: "The bestest bitch ever!"
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This message was edited by Patches on 10-17-02 @ 12:51 PM

[Bill From Yorktown]

The Bills didnt win the superbowl (yet)

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[Doogie]

It would be true Armageddon if you opened the news paper and saw: WORLD CHAMPION BOSTON RED SOX!!!!!!

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[Bill From Yorktown]

WORLD CHAMPION BOSTON RED SOX!!!!!!

Or the Cubs

<IMG SRC="http://hometown.aol.com/billb914/sigpic.gif">

[Doogie]

Or the Cubs

Sub-headline: Red Sox beat cubs in seven.

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AGGIE is Goddess, all hail AGGIE for this sig!!!
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[my_mr_happy]

Armagedon came.. it was a terrible movie...hated it.

[TheMojoPin]

The final sign is on it's way...there's rumors that Adam Sandler could win an Oscar for his latest role in "Punch Drunk Love"...truly, THAT is the end of the world.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/themojopin.jpg>
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
-TMP

[Patches]

it'll come down to Adam Sandler or Eminem for 8 mile...Then the Big Man Above is going to start chucking lightning bolts.

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Patches...Your Football Fantasy. (4-2, second place, tied).
Aggie on Patches: "The bestest bitch ever!"
Sigpic hosted by a mute hispanic.

[TheMojoPin]

it'll come down to Adam Sandler or Eminem for 8 mile...

If that's the case, well, then we DESERVE to be smited verily.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/themojopin.jpg>
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
-TMP

[HordeKing1]

PATCHES - Let me alleiviate your fears. "Armageddon" is a religious fairy tale.

I'm much more concerned about the imminent self-annhiliation of our species and indeed all life on earth.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[Patches]

Ok, HK, let me rephrase the question:

Is the imminent self-annhiliation of our species and indeed all life on earth coming?


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Patches...Your Football Fantasy. (4-2, second place, tied).
Aggie on Patches: "The bestest bitch ever!"
Sigpic hosted by a mute hispanic.

[Bob Impact]

Is the imminent self-annhiliation of our species and indeed all life on earth coming?

Not soon enough.

-Bob Impact
"Welcome the whole new pain and take comfort in what you've become. I waved as I passed myself along the way. I have arrived so unashamed but my reflection no longer seems the same. It seems much dimmer now."- AFI, Exsanguination

[Drudge Jr.]

i'm an agnostic jew, but here's something i thought of to scare all you christians...

the first horesman of the apocolypse rides a white horse, has a bow (a weapon of precision) and will bring along a symbol of religious blasphemy.

sound familiar?

the second horesman is supposed to be war, and of course war is on the horizon.

the third horesman is annihilation

[center]
<img src="http://drudgejr.com/ronfezsig.GIF">

[PanterA]

<img src="http://www.cyber-cinema.com/gallery/Armageddon.jpg">
Dude Armegeddon came out in 98.

Besides, everyone knows Deep Impact was the better meteor movie.

<center><img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/rfsig1"></center><center><b>Phil Anselmo is my god</b>
<marquee behavior=alternate>You are getting sleepy...veeeerrry sleeeepy</marquee></center>

[GodsFavoriteMan]

Lets hope the fourth horseman is God saying, ha ha, just fuckin' wit ya.

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/brazilianthunder/images/getsome2.jpg">

Come Get Some

[Mr Self Destruct]

Lets hope the fourth horseman is God saying, ha ha, just fuckin' wit ya.

HAHAHA

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/vicious675/myhomepage/0.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US" ALT="F all you Nazi Mods" >

[Mr Self Destruct]

Let me alleiviate your fears. "Armageddon" is a religious fairy tale.


You can't prove that HordeKing, ye of little faith. Actually in revelation its the religious who get slaughtered. The atheists get to chill wit' the devil for a few years then they burn or something. What do I know anyway?

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/vicious675/myhomepage/0.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US" ALT="F all you Nazi Mods" >

[TheMojoPin]

the first horesman of the apocolypse rides a white horse, has a bow (a weapon of precision) and will bring along a symbol of religious blasphemy.

sound familiar?

Uhm...no?

"You SO stupid!!!"

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/mojo.jpg>
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
-TMP

[HordeKing1]

Ok, HK, let me rephrase the question:

Is the imminent self-annhiliation of our species and indeed all life on earth coming?

Well, since you put it in those terms, I'd be surprised if we lasted another 25 years.


EDIT: I just checked the SETI website. They're all upset. Something about a Vogon Construction Fleet and a highway...."

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This message was edited by HordeKing1 on 10-19-02 @ 12:54 AM

[TheMojoPin]

EDIT: I just checked the SETI website. They're all upset. Something about a Vogon Construction Fleet and a highway...."


Shhhhhhh, don't tell anyone...42.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/mojo.jpg>
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
-TMP

[Death Metal Moe]

i'm an agnostic jew, but here's something i thought of to scare all you christians...

No Christians to scare with fake ass Boogie Man stories here, friend.

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www.unhallowed.com
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SUPER CALLER #666!!!

[fiestygal]

yes


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this pic is thanx to E2R..I'll get off my SOAP BOX now!...
I am a goofball & swell to boot

[Yerdaddy]

I'd be surprised if we lasted another 25 years.
I'd go with 50-100 years. Put me down for 2072 in the Armageddon pool.

<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigelvis.jpg" >
Yo bald-headed granny

[TheMojoPin]

2012. Final Mayan calendar runs out. Aaaaaaaaaaaaand, SCENE!

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/mojo.jpg>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Jobberific]

the first horesman of the apocolypse rides a white horse, has a bow (a weapon of precision) and will bring along a symbol of religious blasphemy.

sound familiar?


Not in the slightest.
And as far as the end of the world...thats great, its starts with an earthquake

"DANCE MONKEYS!!!! DANCE FOR OUR PLEASURE!!!"

[Bob Impact]

Am I the only one who doesn't think that the Earth will end? I think WE are doomed, but the Earth itself is a self-correcting entity. Every species gets it's time, and ours only lasts so long. So When is Armageddon coming.

2050. Just because.

-Bob Impact
"Welcome the whole new pain and take comfort in what you've become. I waved as I passed myself along the way. I have arrived so unashamed but my reflection no longer seems the same. It seems much dimmer now."- AFI, Exsanguination

[Patches]

Am I the only one who doesn't think that the Earth will end? I think WE are doomed, but the Earth itself is a self-correcting entity. Every species gets it's time, and ours only lasts so long.


Oh, that is definitely true. Carlin has an awesome bit about that. Anyone who knows what I am talking about is probably laughing in their head right now.

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Aggie on Patches: "The bestest bitch ever!"
Sigpic hosted by a mute hispanic.

[TheMojoPin]

Oh, that is definitely true. Carlin has an awesome bit about that. Anyone who knows what I am talking about is probably laughing in their head right now.

If the Earth could take dinosaur shit, we ain't got NUTHIN'.

<img src=http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/mojopin.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Serial]

the first horesman of the apocolypse rides a white horse, has a bow (a weapon of precision) and will bring along a symbol of religious blasphemy. <P>
sound familiar? No, I know nothing of anyone driving around in a white truck/van shooting people with great accuracy (although, he hasn't been doing so good lately.) Where'd the dinosaurs go...Heaven, Hell? Was there a dinosaur church? We, as humans, are destined only to kill ourselves. This planet will have moved on from us before the **next big meteor or whatever. Why does this keep cutting me off?**

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I'm over here now...and so lost. Thanks to Hybrid for the cool sig.

This message was edited by Serial on 10-29-02 @ 3:23 AM

[Hawiian shirt craig]

take a paxil...

AND 42 IS THE MOST
IMPORTANT NUMBER
EVER!


-Hawiian Shirt Craig
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!!

<img src="http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/HSC.gif">

San Diego Chargers 4-0

[Mr Self Destruct]

Every species gets it's time, and ours only lasts so long.


I kinda think we're too proud to go out like that. As a species, we're going to be here for the long haul.

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[IrishAlkey]

Oh, that is definitely true. Carlin has an awesome bit about that. Anyone who knows what I am talking about is probably laughing in their head right now.



PLASTIC!

<marquee><font color=red size=4>I'M KIDDING!</font></marquee>

[canofsoup15]

Armageddon will come when the people at NEW actually make a smart move, like moving r&f back to where they belong.

<IMG SRC=http://members.aol.com/vikorynotvengnce/images/canofsoup15.gif>

[Tall_James]

EDIT: I just checked the SETI website. They're all upset. Something about a Vogon Construction Fleet and a highway...."
DON'T PANIC!

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<marquee>It's not raining - I'm spitting on you.</marquee>
Another Sheeplovr Masterpiece

[Captain Rooster]

As long as we have Sheeplovr all is good;)

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<center>Hey Revolver, don't mothers make good fathers?</center>

[sleepyeyed_Jynx]

"Armageddon" is a religious fairy tale.
uh...these really arent the times to be an athiest HK. yes there is a god, yes we're living in the last days. it's all true. there's too much evidence and too many signs for us not to confirm it. you guys really need to work on your relationship with god.
i know my post wont be popular, but when have my posts been popular?

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Aggrivating the Mod's, one post at a time...

[TheMojoPin]

uh...these really arent the times to be an athiest HK. yes there is a god, yes we're living in the last days.

Will we ever have a millenia where someone DOESN'T say this? Hey, you better duck, I think I saw a comet...

<img src=http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/mojopin.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Mr Self Destruct]

uh...these really arent the times to be an athiest HK. yes there is a god, yes we're living in the last days. it's all true. there's too much evidence and too many signs for us not to confirm it. you guys really need to work on your relationship with god.


Did you know there was atheism even in Biblical times? There will always be atheism and there will always be creationism. You can't be a shepherd without sheep.

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[Mr Self Destruct]

Will we ever have a millenia where someone DOESN'T say this?


Just like that whole "God is dead" nonsense two hundred years ago. Someone should've told the catholic church that. Then maybe I wouldn't be so bored from 3-7PM.

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/vicious675/myhomepage/0.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US" ALT="F all you Nazi Mods" >

[Jobberific]

. yes there is a god, yes we're living in the last days. it's all true. there's too much evidence and too many signs for us not to confirm it.


I'm curious, could you fill me in on some of the evidence?

"DANCE MONKEYS!!!! DANCE FOR OUR PLEASURE!!!"

[more cowbells]

Hey, if it's true, I say to go out and bang the hottest chick (or guy 4 the girls)and live it out happily!! what the hell!!If we're going to die, might as well go with a smile on our face ;)

a BIG TIME hater of Don and Mike.

[Patches]

Well the only evidence I know of God, is that there has to be one. No action can occur without a prior action setting it in motion (Newton extremely paraphrased). You can believe the Big Bang theory started the universe, but what caused that? That's why alot of astrophysicists believe in God; when you trace it back, something has to have started it all. Then what created God? Well nothing, that's the reason (S)He's God. Duh.

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[Mr Self Destruct]

Simple math actually.

I walked in a puddle once = I walked on water = Jesus walked on water = there is a God.

If you follow my "inebriated" logic, everything makes sense.

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/vicious675/myhomepage/0.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US" ALT="F all you Nazi Mods" >

[Knowledged_one]

Bible=opiate for the masses
People still quote nostradamus when talking about the end of the world now, but nostradamus predicted the world would end in 2000 so none of his prophcies even apply now.
Live life in the present f--k the future
Remember the only thing that you can lose and never find is time so take advantage

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Top Down - Chrome Spinnin
I dont just speak the truth I smoke it too
Thanks Aggie for the Pic and SilentSpic for the sig host

[HordeKing1]

PATCHES - You're looking at cause and effect which is very good. The flaw with your argument is that you took the conclusion (existence) and extrapolated the cause to fit your beliefs.

You wrote there "has to be [a god]" because something had to cause everything. That's spurious reasoning. Even accepting that there is always a cause, there is no evidence whatsoever to show that there is a god. God is a theory at best.

EDIT - Re atheists in "biblical times" - It just goes to show you that there are independant thinkers in every age. Many people just aren't interested in poorly written fiction.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">



This message was edited by HordeKing1 on 10-23-02 @ 5:25 PM

[Patches]

The flaw with your argument is that you took the conclusion (existence) and extrapolated the cause to fit your beliefs.


Actually, HK, I did quite the opposite. I took evidence, and formed a theory (not mine actually, Carl Sagan's) amd then came to a scientific conclusion.

there is no evidence whatsoever to show that there is a god. God is a theory at best.


HK, that is the beauty of a little thing called faith.

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Patches...Your Football Fantasy. (5-2, second place, tied).
Aggie on Patches: "The bestest bitch ever!"
Sigpic hosted by a mute hispanic.

[Ninja Lesbian]

F-u and f-u again, Bill From Yorktown





worse sig ever:

------------------------------
| |
| !N.L.! |
------------------------------

[fluffernutter]

Yeah, it looks like Dec. 15, 2002 and it will come from Ft' Lauderdale, FLA.

<img src=http://members.aol.com/vikorynotvengnce/images/vinylcollsig.gif>

[Mr Self Destruct]

poorly written fiction.


So let me humor you HK and say the Bible is fiction. As well as every other religious story. We made it all up. Who's to say that there still isn't a God? Maybe we just have the wrong God. Or at least the wrong opinion of him.
HK you seem remarkably open-minded and closed-minded at the same time.

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/vicious675/myhomepage/0.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US" ALT="F all you Nazi Mods" >

[TheMojoPin]

Who's to say that there still isn't a God? Maybe we just have the wrong God.

I like this idea. I figure there's SOMETHING bigger than us out there, but we just can't comprehend it so we try and water it down into these stupid little religious "definitions".

<img src=http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/mojopin.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Bill From Yorktown]

Armageddon will come when the people at NEW actually make a smart move, like moving r&f back to where they belong.

after last night not so funny anymore, is it?

<IMG SRC="http://hometown.aol.com/billb914/sigpic.gif">

[GodsFavoriteMan]

You guys have it all wrong. I was at Nexxus Gold Club talking with him the other day, (He likes Margaritas) and asked him when the end of time will be. He told me he's not really sure if he wants to end the world, or people, yet, because we're so stupid it's like watching a marathon of the Simpsons.

<IMG SRC="http://publish.hometown.aol.com/godsfavoriteman/images/stan%20copy.jpg">

The third sign of the Apocalypse

[HordeKing1]

Patches you wrote that you "took evidence, and formed a theory (not mine actually, Carl Sagan's) amd then came to a scientific conclusion."

1. Carl Sagan was an avid atheist and even his eulogy reflected his deeply held scorn for the idea of god.

2. You believe in God. You were brought up to believe in god. No problem. But that colors your perception of the world. You see evidence b/c you want to find it.

3. No scientific evidence of the existence of god has ever been offered for one reason. It doesn't exist.

4. At best god is a hypothesis. But it's a hypothesis that hurts people, devalues women, devalues life and causes global strife and hatred.

Given this, perhaps your beliefs are worth questioning.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[Mr Self Destruct]

. At best god is a hypothesis. But it's a hypothesis that hurts people, devalues women...
Through religion it has But what i'm saying is one can believe in God and not these fascist religions.

devalues life

Hows that? Doesn't atheism devalue life by making it pointless?

and causes global strife and hatred.

Again you're stating the flaws and consequences with religion as though it disproves God's existence.

What if the Bible were consistent, well-written and all religions had instead brought centuries of peace. That wouldn't make you believe in God would it? You'd still need an angel to fall in your lap.

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[Patches]

First off HK, I have nothing but a deep respect for your vast array of knowledge, so I refuse to get into a big stupid fight as I have seen before on this board. I will do my best to keep it as what we have now: an intelligent debate between 2 adults. That being said:
1. Carl Sagan was an avid atheist and even his eulogy reflected his deeply held scorn for the idea of god.

You are more than likely correct on this point. I thought it was Sagan who brought that idea up in "Billions and Billions", but after a re-read I admit; I am mistaken (now that I think of it it may have been my old SUNY Albany Geochemistry prof. telling me about colleagues of his ideas on the subject. Self abuse is destroying my memory).

2. You believe in God. You were brought up to believe in god. No problem. But that colors your perception of the world. You see evidence b/c you want to find it.

Yes and no. My father really can care less; he's a bit of an agnostic. My mother believes in God, but doubts the existence of God sometimes herself. I was encouraged to go to Church but never forced. That's probably why I haven't gone in years.

3. No scientific evidence of the existence of god has ever been offered for one reason. It doesn't exist.


Your opinion. Again, HK that is what faith is: believing in something which you can not see hear touch or smell. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

4. At best god is a hypothesis. But it's a hypothesis that hurts people, devalues women, devalues life and causes global strife and hatred.

HK, this is organized religion at it's absolute worst, and I can definitely understand this argument. I do however think that it has done more good than harm. You may find "How the Irish Saved Civilization" to be an interesting read.

Given this, perhaps your beliefs are worth questioning.

HK, I consider myself to be a strong willed person. Do not ask me to question my beliefs.


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Patches...Your Football Fantasy. (5-2, second place, tied).
Aggie on Patches: "The bestest bitch ever!"
Sigpic hosted by a mute hispanic.

[HordeKing1]

PATCHES - I regard this as in intellectual conversation. I don't expect you to to change your faith, or beliefs, nor do I want you to. However, I do think it essential that everyone, (theist and atheists included) challenge their belief system regularly to see if it still is valid. This doesn't apply to merely to religion but to all facets of life.

Regarding Sagan, here's an interseting website that you might want to check out. It talks specifically about Sagan's eulogy and the quasi-irony of it being delivered in a church. http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/shb/smith_13_2.html

Regarding perceptions and the coloring of beliefs, pretty much all philosophers (past aristotle) and social theorists, (including my favorite, Sandra Bem, a wonderfully prolific feminist) discuss how we don't really see reality. We see our interpretation of reality. Our interpretation of it is filtered through our "cultural lens." This is a combination of everything around us in the environment including family, friends, parents, siblings, chance encounters, relatives, wealth, social status, etc. Based on our particular set of circumstancs, and our unique position we view things differently than everyone else on the planet. However, certain things are accepted as cultural norms and those who don't fit into these norms are considered weird or deficient, b/c they are outside of our lens. An example of this is that unfortunately, even today, women are still considered to be more nurturing then men and men less emotional. This of course is nonsense but it's accepted as a norm. So is the idea that baby boys and blue go together as baby girls and pink go together. Another example of this is religion. Our parents values, our friends, the movies, tv, books, magazines, you name it; are very heavily skewed towards the idea of a deity. Those who don't believe in god are viewed as evil. Hence the villification of the Russians as "Godless Commies." (Did you know that the words "under god" were added to the pledge of allegience during the cold war to show our superiority to the Russians.) Yep, even our pledge of allegience focuses the cultural lens onto god. So your belief in God is certainly at least in part a product of your upbringing and culture. Now extend the concept. Having been indoctrinated into belief in god as a social norm you find "evidence" that justifies your beliefs. It's similar to the "evidence" that boy's like to play with
"boys toys" like trucks and video games, and girls like to play with "girl toys" like Barbie. The evidence is that this is what they play with. The fact is that they play with what they're given, and in countless studies, boys and girls play with the same toys until their parents and friends start to steer them towards a particular type of toy. Boys are happy to play
with dolls until they learn through their cultural lens that it isn't appropriate to do so.

The cultural lens is strong. It's very hard to look beyond it. A wide variety of knowledge about the particular condition is required to change plus an open mind and a desire to look for what you regard as a more exacting and accurate representation of reality. Again, this isn't limited to religion. You can use the same example above about boy and girl toys.

You quoted me as saying that "No scientific evidence of the existence of god has ever been offered for one reason. It doesn't exist." You then wrote to say that it is my "opinion" and "that is what faith is, believing in something which you cannot hear, touch or smell." You say you're disagreing but you're not. You acknowledge that belief in god is not science nor is it based on demonstrable evidence, rather it is faith. My point exactly. Whether the faith is justified is the issue under consideration.

Finally, asking someone to question their beliefs is a compliment. If you lacked the intelligence to do anything but blindly follow, I wouldn't be having this conversation with you. Again, I point out that I'm not asking you to change your beliefs. Ch

[BrianTheBailBondsman]

i'm an agnostic jew It don't make you a bad person.. you just like horses

a/k/a JOEY D' when I call the Show.

[Mr Self Destruct]

My voyage towards atheism took about 10 years and was filled with self-discovery. No matter what the end result would have been the journey alone was worth the angst.


Does that mean your journey's over? Have you stopped challenging your beliefs?

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/vicious675/myhomepage/0.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US" ALT="F all you Nazi Mods" >

This message was edited by Mr Self Destruct on 10-25-02 @ 7:35 PM

[HordeKing1]

MR. SELF DESTRUCT - I refer of course to the voyage that lead me to the inescapable conclusion (to date) that god is a Human construct.

As I noted above, I continue the dialouge and continue to challenge this and other beliefs refining them and assessing whether they fit into understaning the world.

Someone earlier had written "I'm an agnostic Jew." Agnostics are uncertain whether god exists or not. From discussing the matter with hundreds of people I found that the overwhelming majority (no matter the faith) of deeply religious people are still at least a tiny bit uncertain. Often it takes a long time for them to admit to themselves that they have any doubt.

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[Mr Self Destruct]

As I noted above, I continue the dialouge and continue to challenge this and other beliefs refining them and assessing whether they fit into understaning the world.


I think it's a credit to your character to be able to go through something like that. I've been a nihilist all my life. Its only due to 9/11 that I began to discover my sprituality.
Tell me, is your atheism restricted to religion or are you skeptical with everything remotely supernatural(for example: Reincarnation, Time travel, afterlife, telepathy, aliens, etc.)?

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[TheMojoPin]

Its only due to 9/11 that I began to discover my sprituality.

To each their own. 9/11 made me discover the evil men do in the NAME of God, and thusly pushed me even further away from an "active" spirtual life. And it's hoary, but if God does exist, why does he let things like 9/11 happen? "To test us?" What a crock. If he's out there, he's a dick, and he just likes messing with us.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[HordeKing1]

MRSELFDESTRUCT - I'm skeptical by nature, although in the past the sceptism did not extend to the religious and supernatural realm which I merely accepted as part of the natural order of things (as I had been taught.)

Now, I'm skeptical about everything but some things seem much more believable to me than others.

Regarding the specific examples you mention:

Reincarnation - There is no evidence that any part of the mnind or consciousness survives death. Indeed we know from simple observation that the brain decays just as rapidly as any other organ.

Time travel is a trickier concept that's wrapped around issues of physics and metaphysics. The simplest answer is that we're all time travelers moving from our subjective present to our subjective future. A more advanced answer would be to point out that we have achieved time travel to an extent. A Russian space ship orbitted the equator and was able to go fast enough so that the astronauts subjective time was a couple of thousands of a second ahead of ours. We start to get into really interesting terrrain when we discuss subjective time at relativstic speeds (i.e. speeds approaching a singnificant fraction of the speed of time). A ship traveling at 1/2 C would experience time slower than would those on earth. In other words, a month of ship time would translate into years of earth time. Current theory is concerned with the issues of time travel paradoxes. One theory is that the universe acts in a way to prevent time travel into the past to prevent the development of paradoxes. Another theory is that time travel always creates paradoxes and to deal with this an alternative universe is created where the paradox plays itself out. A third theory is that time travel is possible but that it will always be into an alternative "parallel universe." Heady stuff.

The afterlife is a religious concept and in the absence of any proof that there is such a thing, I don't believe it. It makes people feel secure to have some pie in the sky idea; to beleive that although they suffer on earth, their suffering will be rewarded when they die. It's one of the ways religion is used as a means of social control.

The idea of telepathy sounds wonderful and is a staple of science fiction. But there is a reason why it is in that genre. I would not be surprised if at some point our technology is developed enough that we are able to read minds with it. (The ultimate lie detector).

I'm virtually certain that aliens exist and I'm virtually certain that no aliens have visited earth at least since recorded history. I'm certain aliens exist b/c it's an awfully huge universe out there and with infinity all things are possible. Life may be rare but it is bound to exist. In fact, the Mars rocks show the existence of bacterial life on Mars. That's alien life (although dead for millions of years) right there. If aliens were able to solve the problem of FTL, and travel to earth they would communicate with us, not stick some probe up the anus of a farmer in Montanna.

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[Patches]

HK:

I agree with virtually everything in your last post. In fact, reviewing our dialogue over the course of this thread, it seems to me we are basically stating the same ideas but from a different angle and in a different fashion.

I especially agree with the idea of a cultural lens, and I do realize you must step outside of it before you can really decide what you choose to believe in. At times that can be difficult, but is necessary; otherwise you are just fooling yourself. And I do think 2 people can view the world outside of the cultural lens and see different things. Basically, different strokes for different folks.

I realize it may have seemed I talked out of both sides of my mouth at one point. By saying that for all of the scientific evidence supporting the Big Bang theory, it still remains that SOMETHING or SOMEONE must have sparked it, because something never comes from nothing. I basically tried to use scientific theory to prove the existence of God.

On the other hand I stated that the idea of faith is believing in something you have no plausible evidence or reason to.

As contradictory as those statements may sound, I stand by both. I think using scientific evidence one can theorize (not prove) the existence of God. However, unless He's sitting in your living room when you get home tonight (I envision in a shiny robe, all lit up) one must still have faith to truly believe in God.

Anyway, I think we wrote a thesis for someone, and I would like to be credited. :-)

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[Mr Self Destruct]

One theory is that the universe acts in a way to prevent time travel into the past to prevent the development of paradoxes.


I can imagine how travel into the future is possible. But going backwards, I don't see how they can even theorize with that.

It's one of the ways religion is used as a means of social control.


HK ,I wonder how do you explain the first christians? They faced mortal danger from Rome and everyone else. It took a century or more before Christianity could be used to control the masses.

Also what do you think of religious figures like Abraham, Mohammed and Jesus? Are they fiction as well or were their historical lives exaggerated?

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[TheMojoPin]

Also what do you think of religious figures like Abraham, Mohammed and Jesus?

The funny thing about Jesus is that whether he's real or not, the few things that are recorded as being "said" by Jesus are so right on the money, does it really matter if he's the son of God or not?

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Mr Self Destruct]

The funny thing about Jesus is that whether he's real or not, the few things that are recorded as being "said" by Jesus are so right on the money, does it really matter if he's the son of God or not?


I agree, but I think HordeKing has link on his site that goes to this atheist Beavis Butthead comicbook. It makes Jesus out to be a fascist almost. I was wondering if he felt the same way.

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[canofsoup15]

HK: I would like to know your theories on what happens when people die for a few moments and say they see heaven.

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[HordeKing1]

For many years after christ (if he even existed) died, there were no christians - they were a sect of judaism, and were persecuted for this. When they first began to consider themselves "christian" (and more importantly when others perceived them as a new religion) they wre still persucuted. Nothing changed in terms of persecution. But the heads of the new religion became the "Machers" (Big shots) of that group.

Before social control came another form of personal gain. Of course, as soon as christianity spread, it took the social control mechanisms from judaism, the greek and roman pantheons, Egyptian mythology and other and modified it to achieve even more highly refined means of social control (i.e. ruining people's lives.)

Abraham, Mohammed and Jesus may have existed. If they did they were just power hungry shcizophrenics with a gift of gab and leadership.

Remember, the biblical account of the flood? That's the world's first science fiction story. It didn't originate in the hebrew bible, but rather as a story about a king UR of the sumarians. The end of the world story began as an actual historical event, a heavy rain causing a river to overflow and ruin some crops. Over time, it became a village then the flood was a town. In those days, a town was pretty much the world. From their persepective, flooding their town was flooding the world.


Regarding the quetion about "out of body death experiences," I've described before how the occular nerve decays very rapidly after clinical death, as does the brain. The narrow hall with bright lights and the works reported by many people of different faiths is an oxygen starved brain trying to make sense out of the decaying image from a dying nerve. When the person is revived, the brain is reoxygenated and begins to process the images recieved from the now functional optical nerve.


Everything is a product of the mind of humankind.

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[Mr Self Destruct]

If they did they were just power hungry shcizophrenics


Man, you show no mercy. So according to you none of these people had any redeeming qualities whatsoever?

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[TheMojoPin]

HK, maybe guys like Buddha and Jesus never claimed to be the physical manifestations of their God, and just claimed to be teachers, philosophers or prophets, and their "mystical" aspects were added later for political reasons.

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"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 10-29-02 @ 2:35 AM

[Serial]

but if God does exist, why does he let things like 9/11 happen? "To test us?" What a crock. If he's out there, he's a dick, and he just likes messing with us.
Ah..Mojo, you've given me the perfect setup for one of my favorite quotes about the hypocritical one called "God."

""So, this is what your God does, eh? Kill people and break up families? Tell me...Why do you continue to worship him? He sounds like an asshole."

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I'm over here now...and so lost. Thanks to Hybrid for the cool sig.

[Mr Self Destruct]

""So, this is what your God does, eh? Kill people and break up families? Tell me...Why do you continue to worship him? He sounds like an asshole."


You're treating him as if he were a person. For the sake of of argument, lets say he exists. Just like you traet an insect differently than you would a human, you can't assume God(being immortal, all-knowing, blabla bla) works the same way as we do. What we see as a tragedy now may pay off in the long run after we die. Sure it seems unfair to us watching our loved ones die for example. But God may view us as a species and not individually. Disasters like 9/11 brought a lot of people together (albeit temporarily) remember? Look how far we've come without his direct intervention. Maybe he doesn't "let bad things happen to good people". Perhaps he's just let us tend to ourselves for once.

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[LilLibra]

Put me down for 2099- way out there. That whole millennium fever is bound to start up again by then. Maybe I'll be right this time. <P>

If this does not contain any swear words in it, your lucky ass caught me on a good day...

[JerryTaker]

I'm much more concerned about the imminent self-annhiliation of our species and indeed all life on earth.


Well, "Jackass" was the number one movie last weekend. I'd say we're definately well on our way there....

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<marquee width=300>I look around my room is filled with candles; Each one a story but they end the same. I'll hide away in here the law will never find me; The walls will tell the story of my pain</marquee>

[Violent Jay]

theres no one who has the power to get throuh the united states and destroy us. were just to powerfull. our defense is soo strong we detect bombs before there launched. never mind that the afgahns or whatever the hell they are dont have the power to make a paintball gun. i really dont think we should worry abotu and apocalips of mass destruction


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[Serial]

Well, "Jackass" was the number one movie last weekend.
It deserves to be number one...except for the ending.

theres no one who has the power to get throuh the united states and destroy us.
Violent Jay, I got two words for you...Serial Sniper. Sure, he (they) was/were caught due to a couple of mistakes (intentional or not) and, some dumb luck but, say he didn't make the link to Alabama...you'd still have shootings over here.
As for the rest of this religious 'arguement', is it possible for someone to make a Cliff Notes version? It seems interesting but, way too much reading.

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I'm over here now...and so lost. Thanks to Hybrid for the cool sig.
You can call me...Jinjiro Sakakida-san.

[Mr Self Destruct]

except for the ending.


Why? What was the ending to jackass?

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[Donnielimes]

Yes Patches the end is near Pick a side and buckle up buttercup.