View Full Version : Terrorists strike Mother Russia
DarkHippie
10-25-2002, 06:12 AM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20021025/ts_nm/russia_siege_dc
everyone's a target. 700 people about to die. I can't stand it anymore
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This message was edited by DarkHippie on 10-25-02 @ 10:18 AM
TheMojoPin
10-25-2002, 07:30 AM
Putin links Russia's war in Chechnya to the U.S.-led global fight against terrorism which he enthusiastically backed after last year's September 11 attacks in the United States.
Nice move, deeeeeeeek.
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Michael Fury
10-25-2002, 07:35 AM
Goddamnit. Point the big guns at Chechnya and blow this suicide squad to the moon.
See, the problem is that God gives men a brain and a penis, and only enough blood to run one at a time.
Sheeplovr
10-25-2002, 08:12 AM
well come on its russia
its like if someone gunned down 30 mexicans
why not someoen blow up that buidling in mexico city the one wiht all the ghosts in it
number 333 its the way to be
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DarkHippie
10-25-2002, 10:15 AM
Nice move, deeeeeeeek
I think this is why alot of countries have been iffy on backing us. no one the ramifications of a war on terrorism on them (ie: terrorists in their back yard) russia just took a bullet for backing us.
On the other hand, Chechnya has wanted to be free for a while, maybe this was just a spark in the gas tank.
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Yerdaddy
10-25-2002, 10:57 AM
russia just took a bullet for backing us.
this has nothing to do with us. Russia's war against Chechnya has been going on for years, and both sides have acted with extreme brutality. The Chechens have carried out terrorists attacks long before 9-11, and Russia has bombed Chechen cities without regard for civillian casualties, (including the use of air-fuel bombs, which explode over a city with a massive fire that burns out the oxigen, suffocating people below).
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It was a joke goddammit!
furie
10-25-2002, 11:09 AM
yerdaddy's right. Russia's conflict with Chechen rebels has been very heated since '95, but the conflicct goes back to the 80's and Soviet rule.
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Noellevious
10-25-2002, 11:58 AM
Mother Russia
She aint't my mama.
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El Mudo
10-25-2002, 12:05 PM
On the other hand, Chechnya has wanted to be free for a while, maybe this was just a spark in the gas tank.
You gotta put yourself in Russia's shoes. If they let chechnya go, then who's next? Russia has so many ethnic groups and its so freakin big it could easily split into about 10 countries or more
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TheMojoPin
10-25-2002, 04:15 PM
If they let chechnya go, then who's next? Russia has so many ethnic groups and its so freakin big it could easily split into about 10 countries or more
So? How do you expect to be a functioning democracy if you're holding your country together with your fingertips because the natives want their own countries? Let those who want to go, go. It's not like it'll halve the country.
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El Mudo
10-25-2002, 07:04 PM
So? How do you expect to be a functioning democracy if you're holding your country together with your fingertips because the natives want their own countries? Let those who want to go, go.
sounds like the south in the civil war
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schmega
10-25-2002, 07:08 PM
there's nothing better than a failed empire falling in an endless chasm screaming to its former foe for help while cohorting with our enemies. those russian scumbags should be our yes men considering the billions and billions in aid we funnel to them. they are an irresponsible and self-pitying nation that deserves this kinda mess.
furie
10-25-2002, 07:43 PM
So? How do you expect to be a functioning democracy if you're holding your country together with your fingertips because the natives want their own countries? Let those who want to go, go.
Sorry south carolina, i guess your needs really were more important than the needs of the Union.
you can go.
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DarkHippie
10-26-2002, 05:00 AM
It ends.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=1&cid=578&u=/nm/20021026/ts_nm/russia_siege_dc
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Captain Rooster
10-26-2002, 05:27 AM
NBC, MSNBC AND NEWS SERVICES
MOSCOW, Oct. 26 - Russian special forces seized control of the Moscow theater where Chechen rebel gunmen were holding hundreds of hostages Saturday morning, killing their leader and freeing more than 750 hostages, Russian emergency officials said. But a total of 67 hostages died during the ordeal, Russia's deputy interior minister said, while 34 of the approximately 50 insurgents were killed.
The Russians don't play patty-cake with assholes. Good for them!
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TheMojoPin
10-26-2002, 08:53 AM
sounds like the south in the civil war
But it's obviously not the South. The South was an integral part of the country itself. Chechnya is trying to be "saved" for politcal face value, pure and simple. It's like Northern Ireland. What happened in the theater is balls-out wring, but Russia brought it on themselves.
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TheMojoPin
10-26-2002, 08:55 AM
The Russians don't play patty-cake with assholes. Good for them!
Of course, when the cops realize they won't be getting paid that week, they might take some hostages of their own. What a clusterfuck of a country.
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DarkHippie
10-26-2002, 08:56 AM
lets not forget, 67 people still died. russia averted a catastrophic tragedy, but 70 dead is still major.
btw: now they are saying that there were close to 900 people in that theater.
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Yerdaddy
10-27-2002, 11:02 AM
<a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/fc/world/russia/news_stories/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=564&ncid=564&e=3&u=/nm/20021027/ts_nm/russia_siege_dc_65" TARGET="_blank">Official: Gas Killed 115 Moscow Siege Hostages</a>
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It was a joke goddammit!
This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 10-27-02 @ 3:18 PM
TheMojoPin
10-27-2002, 11:50 AM
Russia sure Stapled that one. Christ.
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Contra
10-27-2002, 01:32 PM
damn, the russian soldiers just went in and shot all the terrorists in the head as they laid unconscious. thats pretty hardcore, we need to start doing that.
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CaptClown
10-27-2002, 01:48 PM
Betcha that the terrorist won't try that again, knowing they will kill the Russians will kill their own people like that.
Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
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Yerdaddy
10-27-2002, 01:52 PM
Betcha they do.
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It was a joke goddammit!
DarkHippie
10-27-2002, 03:47 PM
Betcha that the terrorist won't try that again, knowing they will kill the Russians will kill their own people like that.
betcha next time the terrorists don't take hostages, they just blow every thing up from the start
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CaptClown
10-27-2002, 03:51 PM
betcha next time the terrorists don't take hostages, they just blow every thing up from the start.
Seeing how the Russians were willing to kill that many of their own people, how bad do you think the revenge ass-kicking will be fore that?
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TheMojoPin
10-27-2002, 03:52 PM
Looks like they didn't even have to shoot them in the head, since they were already dead from the gas. Not that dead terrorists are all that tragic, but 115 of the people you're trying to save? That's unacceptable. And 500 more still in the hospital? What did they throw in there, mustard gas?!?
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Captain Rooster
10-27-2002, 04:09 PM
Mojo, what would you have done? Better yet, what should the Russians have done? Negotiate? The Muslim Terrorists had begun killing hostages on the hour. Should they have waited and tried to coax them into submission?
America's terrorist attackers have not taken hostages. They have taken thousands of lives. These people need to be sent a message. And that message: "Fuck with us and you die a brutal death." That's all these Muslim extremists understand. They have raped their own religion and put their own people in harm's way. Sad but true.
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This message was edited by LTRooster on 10-27-02 @ 8:13 PM
Yerdaddy
10-27-2002, 05:10 PM
Everything I've read shows they had only killed the one woman when they first took the theater. I read one article late last night that the special forces raid was launched when a kid freaked out inside the building and took off running down the aisle while the terrorists were shooting people by accident trying to shoot the kid. But the latest reports quote the high-ranking medical official in Moscow saying only two of the hostages had been killed by gunfire, (including the one from the first day). Either way, it is a harsh response from the Russians, which may have been taken in order to send a message to the Chechens. But I have my doubts that this sort of response by the Russians will prove to be a deterrant. These people had planned on dying all along. They thought they were going to a better place, and I imagine that their fellow extremists think that they're there now and so the deterrant effect is lost.
It's a tough situation. In a way this may be the best possible outcome for the Chechens. Rather than sending a tough message to future terrorists, the Russians will now have to deal with the questions of did they save more hostages than they killed? What was the gas they used, was it the best choice of tactics, and did they know how bad this stuff was? The effect of all these questions is that this event will live on as foreign governments, victims and their families, NGOs, and I'm sure the Russian government now has to face all questions and handle numerous investigations, etc. etc. So it will now live on as a question of why Russia killed these people instead of why the terrorists did. Given that Russia's strategy for the last ten years or so has been to keep the Chechen war out of the press, this blows that strategy.
I don't know if there was a good way out of this type of terrorist act. I mean how do you win in a hostage situation where the hostage-takers don't value their own lives? It may prove that they had only killed one person and they had left Russia a way out of the situation. Or it may prove that this was the best of the bad choices. It's still too early to tell. But I don't think this will be seen as a victory for Russia or a deterrant to future acts.
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It was a joke goddammit!
Captain Rooster
10-27-2002, 05:14 PM
Yerdaddy, keep posting - you rock
Quote:These people had planned on dying all along.
Exactly. I am sure the Russian negotiations team was talking to a wall on the other side.
The fact is, terrorists are the guilty party every time.
TERRORISM only leads to death. Seems like easy logic yet some people argue otherwise.
These people are not choosing to attack legitimate military targets. They are not attacking leaders. These idiots are attacking the innocent civilians, of the world, who just want to get by in life and stay below the radar of death and destruction. I feel bad for those people.
Those people died in a horrible manner BUT it was the extremists who did this. The media will try and blame the Russians. Sad. Do people think that the Spetz Natz guys love putting their lives on the line by going face to face with some scumbag with C4 attached to their waste? No, they want to see their family and train. That's all.
These terrorists need to go away permanently.
Also, why is the media afraid to announce that these Chechens are Muslim? The fact ism Osama has inspired these people to rise up.
I am sure this is just the beginning.
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This message was edited by LTRooster on 10-27-02 @ 9:25 PM
CaptClown
10-27-2002, 06:27 PM
I agree with you for the most part Rooster, but the terrorists could have just as easily have been any religion or possibly atheists. Lately it has been the Moslems causing trouble.
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This message was edited by CaptClown on 10-27-02 @ 10:31 PM
TheMojoPin
10-27-2002, 06:55 PM
Did I say they shouldn't have killed the terrorists? No, in this scenario, that's fully acceptable. Killing at least 115 of the people you're trying to save isn't just unacceptable, it borders on retarded. And with 500 more still in the hospital, even more hostages may die. Of course loss was to be expected and planned for...I was fully ready to see at least 50 hostages dead, possibly even from friendly fire...but 115? Look, the authorities intentions were right, but let's be honest, that's a pooch-screw. I'd question whether the terrorists would have been able to kill that many of the hostages themselves once the Russians stormed the theater.
And where was the implication that I said they shouldn't have attacked? Those terrorists deserved what they got. I never even hinted otherwise. But in terms of collateral damage, this is absurd. That is NOT how you fight a "war on terror". Do the job right or you pay the price. You end up killing that many innocent people, you basically do the job for the terrorists. I'm glad the majority of the hostages survived, but this was a bungled situation.
As situations like this occur more often, the numbers are just going to grow. Almost a fourth of the hostages were killed. Increase that to, say, 9/11 levels, and that brings us near a thousand people dead. How many deaths of the people who are supposed to be "saved" and "protected" are ultimately acceptable? I'm all for the right people being killed. Casualities will happen. But this was just sloppy. And it's scary.
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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 10-27-02 @ 11:07 PM
TheMojoPin
10-27-2002, 07:02 PM
The fact ism Osama has inspired these people to rise up.
That cheapens the Chechen/Russia conflict. This is a situation far more akin to the insanity that's been going on between England and Ireland for the last 40 years. What happened here in the theater is horrible and unacceptable, but was not the result of some "holy crusade against the West". The Chechans are fighting for their independence, but now they've taken it to a very wrong and very foolish level of violence.
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"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
Captain Rooster
10-28-2002, 11:27 AM
but the terrorists could have just as easily have been any religion or possibly atheists
Clown, they were Muslims.
Mojo,
The Russians did not do the job of the terrorists for them .The terrorists were prepared to kill EVERYONE. Hostage rescue is not pretty and it is not easy. The Russian tactics will undoubtedly change as a result.
But why don't you start complaining about the root cause of alll this death instead of attacking the people who try to stop it.
The Chechens HAVE been influenced by Osama. They have been in a legitimate struggle for independence for over ten years and I understand that. It is not a coincidence tha they have decided to use terrorist tactics out of the blue. The underground network of terrorism is a cancer which is eating away at the credibility of ALL Muslims. Sad but true.
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DarkHippie
10-28-2002, 02:18 PM
They have been in a legitimate struggle for independence for over ten years and I understand that. It is not a coincidence tha they have decided to use terrorist tactics out of the blue.
You just contradicted yourself, rooster. They have been using terrorist tactics not out of the blue, but for many years, and russia has been retaliating with little restraint for many years. part of the reason Putin got put in office was because he promise a tough stand on Chechnya
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This message was edited by DarkHippie on 10-28-02 @ 6:26 PM
Coach
10-28-2002, 02:24 PM
Has anyone ever heard of acceptable losses? I know it sounds cold, but in every hostage crisis, it is a factor calculated into a rescue effort. I guess the Russians just have a higher number for acceptable.
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spoon
10-28-2002, 02:43 PM
First off, great thread and dialogue.
I don't know if there was a good way out of this type of terrorist act. I mean how do you win in a hostage situation where the hostage-takers don't value their own lives?
When this all started, some of you may recall Howard Stern kidding that we should use Mafia justice. To be honest, it may be the tough call that may make a difference. This works in a way that those families associated with the terrorists are held accountable. In mafia circles, those families linked to the snitches, cheats, whatever are simply killed in cold blood. A way to make this concept work here is to possibly link the family to the terrorist and make it easier to convict them if they had any knowledge of their plans. Taking the idea to the killing level stays with Stern's concept.
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This message was edited by spoon on 10-28-02 @ 6:51 PM
Yerdaddy
10-28-2002, 02:52 PM
Chechen links to al-Qaeda go back to the Afghan/Soviet war of the 1980s. Chechens were recruited with Saudis, Egyptians, and any other Muslim population to train and fight with the mujeheddin against the Soviets. After the war, the Chechens, like the rest, continued to train and fight in Afghanistan with both the Taliban, the Northern Alliance and other splinter groups of former mujeheddin. They also took that training back to Chechnya, and began using terrorist against the Russians when they were denied independence during the breakup of the Soviet Union.
On the Russians' part, they have always treated the Chechens with brutality and repression. During the Soviet period Chechens were forbidden to practice their religion openly, mosques were destroyed or shut down and the province remained poor while revenue from the region went to Moscow. In recent years Russian soldiers have been carrying out a campaign of indiscriminate killings, rapes, torture, dissappearances and forced relocation against the Chechens. There are bands of skinheads in Moscow that are roaming Moscow checking people's papers and retaliating against Chechen residents for the hostage attack.
It can only be said that both sides are guilty in Chechnya. Russian attemps to "crush" the rebels have only succeeded in creating more of them. (Consider the muslim women with bombs strapped to them in the theater that were reportedly widows of Chechen fighters.) Chechen terrorist attacks against Russian civilians have outraged the world and lost them international support that could otherwise help pressure the Russians into a negotiated settlement. One of the conditions that Russia is asking for in order to accept the US invasion of Iraq is aquiesence in the Chechen war. I think that will only make it drag on even longer.
I don't see hard-line military action as a solution to the Russian terrorist problem. It is the opposite of deterrance. If Russia wants to hold on to Chechnya, it should commit itself to building a civil society in Chechnya, to counter the support for rebellion at any cost. It should hold its military to high proffessional standards and prosecute those that commit crimes against the Chechen population. They cannot expect to abuse these people and expect them to want to stay a part of Russia. It's keeping a people a part of Russia at gunpoint, and it makes no sense. Treat them with respect or cut them loose.
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It was a joke goddammit!
spoon
10-28-2002, 02:54 PM
but the terrorists could have just as easily have been any religion or possibly atheists. Lately it has been the Moslems causing trouble.
These PC type statements really piss me off! During my quarter of a century on this planet, no other religion has inflicted so much pain and death. I know there are past problems with many religions, yet NOW the problem is in front of us. Let's deal with this problem NOW! Reflection is fine, yet attacking all religions of past problems isn't helping. If this was normal, shouldn't we be upset with Japan again? If we could simply focus on this problem and dealing with it as such without the pc shit, perhaps we could end it. And if the Mormons rise up, we'll take care of them too.
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This message was edited by spoon on 10-28-02 @ 7:02 PM
Captain Rooster
10-28-2002, 02:55 PM
You just contradicted yourself, rooster
How?
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This message was edited by LTRooster on 10-28-02 @ 6:55 PM
spoon
10-28-2002, 03:04 PM
This is a situation far more akin to the insanity that's been going on between England and Ireland for the last 40 years. What happened here in the theater is horrible and unacceptable, but was not the result of some "holy crusade against the West". The Chechans are fighting for their independence, but now they've taken it to a very wrong and very foolish level of violence.
Is it safe to say Quebec has to right to perhaps do something similar in Canada? Fuck no, and they wouldn't. They at least respect life.
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DarkHippie
10-28-2002, 03:04 PM
How?
not so much a contradiction, but you said that the terrorist attacks were coming out of the blue. but before that you said that the battles had been going on for years.
These had nothing to do with sept 11 (contrary to what I orignally thought and posted earlier in the thread), but i think we may be watching our future if we decide to handle terrorism the way that Russia does. We should watch them intently, and see the results
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This message was edited by DarkHippie on 10-28-02 @ 7:17 PM
Captain Rooster
10-28-2002, 03:12 PM
Hippie,
What I meant: the terrorist tactics seem to be more intense across the world. If the Chechens want independence, they should fight against legitimate targets - not people trying to be entertained within a theater.
I just get appalled at people who want to constantly point the finger at the people trying to stop the terrorists.
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spoon
10-28-2002, 03:18 PM
As for the Mojopin's problems with Russia's approach, I have to agree. The amount of deaths, inflicted by themselves as a result of the situation, was unacceptable. It is the ONE Variable that you can control and this was anything but percise.
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Nothing...i have nothing!
Yerdaddy
10-28-2002, 04:30 PM
When this all started, some of you may recall Howard Stern kidding that we should use Mafia justice. To be honest, it may be the tough call that may make a difference. This works in a way that those families associated with the terrorists are held accountable. In mafia circles, those families linked to the snitches, cheats, whatever are simply killed in cold blood. A way to make this concept work here is to possibly link the family to the terrorist and make it easier to convict them if they had any knowledge of their plans. Taking the idea to the killing level stays with Stern's concept.
Punish the innocent. It's brilliant! Why didn't anyone think of this before?
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It was a joke goddammit!
El Mudo
10-28-2002, 08:02 PM
During the Soviet period Chechens were forbidden to practice their religion openly, mosques were destroyed or shut down and the province remained poor while revenue from the region went to Moscow
it was like that in the whole country during the communist times...even for the russian orthodox, they turned on of the oldest orthodox churches in the country into a swimming pool..
"People try to say what goes on between Al Davis and the league doesn't effect what happens on the field, but there's no way you can tell me that's so"
--Future Hall Of Famer Tim Brown..
TheMojoPin
10-28-2002, 08:20 PM
But why don't you start complaining about the root cause of alll this death instead of attacking the people who try to stop it.
I'm not supporting the Chechens actions here. In the actual Russian/Chechen conflict, I do, and Russia should consider that they might have to leave. But no, terrorism, no matter what the reason, is acceptable. But at the same time, the Russians should NOT be commended for gassing their own people with heroin or morphine-laced gas. Yes, the "good guys" technically "won", but really, at what cost? We wouldn't stand for this America, not for an instant. We should expect better of our so-called "allies".
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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 10-29-02 @ 11:44 AM
TheMojoPin
10-28-2002, 08:24 PM
These PC type statements really piss me off!
The truth is PC? Hate the terrorists. That's easy enough.
<img src=http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/mojopin.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
TheMojoPin
10-28-2002, 08:25 PM
Is it safe to say Quebec has to right to perhaps do something similar in Canada?
That analogy and comparison has nothing to do with what you quoted from me. I was comparing the unecessary, senseless and overreactionary terrorist tactics to the same mistakes the modern IRA has been making for 40 years or so. What does some fantasy situation in Canada have to do with either?
And you're right about the casualities being too high. And that this is an excellent debate and dialogue. Thanks for the opinions and input, Spoon.
<img src=http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/mojopin.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 10-29-02 @ 12:27 AM
Yerdaddy
10-28-2002, 08:58 PM
From the US State Department: <a href="http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/eur/8331.htm" target="_blank">>Russia - Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2001</a>. To get to the main part on the war in Chechnya do a search for "g. use" and it will take you to the section on internal conflicts. There is data on both Russian and Chechen abuses.
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It was a joke goddammit!
DarkHippie
10-29-2002, 06:33 AM
We should expect better of our so-called "allies".
This is going to sound odd coming from me, but I disagree. I don't think we should expect more from Russia, or any other country. every country is unique, and sovereign. They have the right to act as they see fit. And while we may not agree, it is not our place to tell them what to do.
America is a special country. we have standards of conduct that do not exist anywhere else in the world. we have ideals that make this country great, ideals that i hold onto with every ounce of strength in my body. But we must remember that we are special. No one sees the world as we do, and we must not be so Nationalistic as to hold them to our ideals. that would only create resentment towards us.
When in doubt, I like to think "what would Captain America do?" You may laugh, but he is a fictional representation of the ideals of our nation. Think about it, could he keep the Avengers together if he forced his patriotism, his ethics, his code of fair play, on them?
shouldn't we stand by our Ideals, and give others the right to have their own?
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This message was edited by DarkHippie on 10-29-02 @ 10:46 AM
my_mr_happy
10-29-2002, 07:42 AM
58 days of being a hostage and every week or so someone was killed. They had to do something. They did what they could. As far as the gas I don't think they sed the correct gas but they had no choice. You can't negotiate with these kind of people. They have made their choice.
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TheMojoPin
10-29-2002, 07:45 AM
Think about it, could he keep the Avengers together if he forced his patriotism, his ethics, his code of fair play, on them?
It's one thing to force everyone to dress in red, white and blue and play at our tea party.
It's another to at least smack them on the back of the head for gassing their own people, no matter what the circumstances. I mean, if we're going to use that as "justification" to invade Iraq, we shouldn't tolerate it anywhere.
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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
DarkHippie
10-29-2002, 08:21 AM
I mean, if we're going to use that as "justification" to invade Iraq, we shouldn't tolerate it anywhere.
well, i don't think we should invade Iraq, so that's a moot point with me, but that's another thread (please, if anyone's gonna reasond to what i just said, do it in the Iraq thread. thanks :) )
Lets give them the benefit of the doubt . . . maybe they didn't realize the gas would be so fatal. If it was BZ, it was only supposed to be a powerful hallucionogenic and knockout gas. If it was valium based, it's only toxic in prolonged settings, they probably thought they could get them out in time, and for the most part they did.
Remember, they heard shooting. they thought the carnage had begun already, so they went with the only plan they had.
And lets not forget, I've seen American law enforcement agents using gas on its own people too, peaceful protestors. They've used bullets too (Kent State), and dogs, and hoses, need I go on?
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<marquee>Who is DarkHippie? "You look like an Amish child molester"-- Jim Norton. "Watch out for this one. Someday he's gonna snap and kill you all."-- Rich Vos </marquee>
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This message was edited by DarkHippie on 10-29-02 @ 12:32 PM
TheMojoPin
10-29-2002, 10:13 AM
And lets not forget, I've seen American law enforcement agents using gas on its own people too, peaceful protestors. They've used bullets too (Kent State), and dogs, and hoses, need I go on?
But my point is that it doesn't make it right. Alright, this was a mistake. But what if it's an even bigger mistake down the line and even more people are killed? They reacted quickly and kept the situation from becoming a true massacre, but the Russian authorities need to review their own tactics. I'm not saying to not use a kind of gas, just not THAT gas since it's obviously unpredictable and unreliable. There's no harm in at least trying to "tweek" things so the next time the results aren't even worse.
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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
Yerdaddy
10-29-2002, 10:18 AM
58 days of being a hostage and every week or so someone was killed.
3 days and only two had been shot by the time of the raid. Newspapers are only 35 cents bud. (I'm a smarmy bitch, I know.)
<a href="http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2002/10/28/002.html" target="_blank">The Moscow Times</a> puts some of the witnesses' stories together into an account of the last hours before the raid.
Moscow Times editorial: <a href="http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2002/10/28/005.html" target="_blank">Why Were Doctors in the Dark?</a>
Lets give them the benefit of the doubt . . . maybe they didn't realize the gas would be so fatal.
While it is a possibility that they didn't expect the gas to do what it did, most chemical weapons have been around for 20 years or more. They should all have been tested and well understood before they are used. I don't see any excuse for using a gas that they didn't know the effects of. It appears, according to the Moscow Times editorial and reports by medical authorities, that the authorities who authorized the us of this gas did so with more concearn for keeping the type of gas a secret than for protecting the hostages from the effects of the gas. They told the city's chief doctor what the gas was minutes before its use, (and apparently told him not to tell anyone any more than general guidelines for treatment), but they didn't tell the doctors at the hospitals what it was. There was no plan to treat hostages at the scene, or to get them to clinics that were prepared to treat them. There are now around 30 families who still have not found thier relatives and the government will not help them.
I think this thing was handled completely irresponsibly by the Russian authorities. What was so unusual about this hostage situation that the security forces were so unprepared to develop a coordinated raid? Why did they not know that this gas was particularly dangerous to people suffering physical exaustion? Why are they now still hiding the type of gas used? Why did they not have medical personnel at the scene to treat patients, or have an evacuation plan?
As for holding Russia to American standards of conduct, it's more a case of holding the Russians to standards of international laws which they are a party to. There are international laws that cover how a situation like this can be handled without disregarding the lives of the victims. They also may have violated the Chemical Weapons Treaty, depending on the type of gas used, and their lack of protection for the victims. These standards exist because internal repression by any country effects the world as a whole, either by providing a rationale for repression by other countries, contributing to international terrorism, or degrading the value of human live and human raghts generally. It's the principle of rule of law that the US made the great contribution to the world 200 years ago. It is the foundation of the world's democracies and of the UN and the collection of international treaties that make up the UN. When a prominent nation like Russia thumbs its nose at the rule of law it seriously undermines that system and threatens the security of all of us. Obviously I sound like I'm getting carried away here, but I don't know any simpler way of explaining why international law is so important to the modern world. It's also not too much for the Russian people to expect from their own, once great, nation.
Remember, they heard shooting. they thought the carnage had begun already, so they went with the only plan they had.
According to the witnesses in the above article, there were two shots fired and the raid began four hours later. That's not to say the Russians were not trying to save the hostages, but it was not an immediate response to gunshots. They had time to prepare better than they did.
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It was a joke goddammit!
Michael Fury
10-29-2002, 10:29 AM
MojoPin is correct: the Chechen conflict is similar to the problems of the Northern Ireland or even the Basques in Spain.
The war has local origins, rooted in the history of the Russian Empire, including the memories of those deported by Stalin during WWII. It's also a conflict has very little to do with the al-Qaeda brand of Islam.
The sole cause for continuing the carnage is Moscow's fear of admitting a political fiasco. And the sooner U.S. foreign policy stops encouraging Moscow that the Chechen issue is noble fight against international terrorism, then better.
ELECT JOE QUIMBY FOR STATE SENATOR: Your best friend in government.
Yerdaddy
10-29-2002, 02:09 PM
<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021029/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_russia_theater_raid_18" target="_blank">[US]Officials ID Gas in Moscow Raid</a>
"Based on reports from doctors who visited some of the American hostages, U.S. officials believe the gas was an opiate - a drug related to morphine and heroin, Vershbow said. Other U.S. officials identified the drug as fentanyl, commonly used in anesthesia and to relieve severe pain.
"Fentanyl is a fast-acting narcotic that in large doses can shut down breathing and cause death from lack of oxygen. A hundred times more potent than morphine, fentanyl also has been abused for the highs it produces.
"The effects of opiates like fentanyl can be reversed with the drug naloxone, known by the brand name Narcan. U.S. officials say some of the hostages responded to doses of Narcan, which bolstered the belief that the Russians used an opiate to knock out the hostage-takers and their captives."
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It was a joke goddammit!
This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 10-29-02 @ 6:11 PM
Yerdaddy
10-30-2002, 12:15 AM
<a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/atcsmonitor/specials/chechnya/chechfaq.html" target="_blank">Christian Science Monitor - Frequently asked questions about Chechnya</a>
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It was a joke goddammit!
TheMojoPin
10-30-2002, 07:56 AM
Hey daddy, let's run for office.
<img src=http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/mojopin.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
Captain Rooster
10-30-2002, 11:02 AM
I can see it now: Vote for Yerdaddy!
Catchy!
Mojo, I am sure a picture of Billy Staples with his eye shot out would make a great campaign poster.
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TheMojoPin
10-30-2002, 11:58 AM
Mojo, I am sure a picture of Billy Staples with his eye shot out would make a great campaign poster.
Yeah, but where would I find a sick fuck twisted enough to make something like that? I mean, only the most depraved, psychotic animal mother could possibly even fathom something so horrendous.
Right?
Right?
Who loves ya, baby?
<img src=http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/mojopin.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 10-30-02 @ 3:59 PM
Captain Rooster
10-30-2002, 02:42 PM
animal mother
Awwww, thank you;)
A Full Metal Jacket reference:)
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CaptClown
10-30-2002, 06:24 PM
During my quarter of a century on this planet, no other religion has inflicted so much pain and death.
That is your whole problem, you are young yet. I have seen all types of idiotic crap from just about all the major religions.
If we could simply focus on this problem and dealing with it as such without the pc shit, perhaps we could end it.
The problem is not the message but the messengers various and out of phase message that all the fringe element seem to pick up on.
And if the Mormons rise up, we'll take care of them too.
I don't know, them Mormons look kind of tough and I'm not down with that set. They might rough me up.
Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army
Yerdaddy
10-30-2002, 06:44 PM
Hey daddy, let's run for office.
i don't know. If I were to run for office I would run in order to bang interns and make policies that hook my friends up, not to pretend I wouldn't do that. I'll run for orifice though.
<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigruby.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!
TheMojoPin
10-30-2002, 08:40 PM
Awwww, thank you
A Full Metal Jacket reference
Merry Christmas, pimp-master.
<img src=http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/mojopin.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
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