Religious Bigotry [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

Death Metal Moe

12-29-2002, 01:25 AM

Well, I'm no fan of ANY religion, and since I know Christianity so well, it's easy for me to pick it apart.

I have another equally important question for YOU Heckler.

Where's the tolerance when some church going person disrespects people who don't believe in God, or are another religion they don't like? That happens more than most would like to admit, and is worse because it's a form of unspoken prejudice.

I know Catholics who think Protestants are taking the easy way out, and think they're better.

I know Protestants who think that Catholics are Mary Worshipping freaks who pay too much attention to men in the Vatican instead of trusting in God alone.

I know Christians who look down their noses at Muslims.

I know Muslims that were raised on Hatred for Jews.

I know Jews that only deal with their own people.

All Religion has managed to do is seperate us all, form extremist sects, and distract us from thoughts of Death we deem to painful to deal with.

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Arienette

12-29-2002, 05:32 AM

everyone thinks that they are right and their way is the best waywell, i think this kind of goes without saying. of course people think that they're right and that their way is best... otherwise, they would believe differently. i think it's silly to fault people for feeling the way they do.

that said, i think the problem is that people sometimes have trouble allowing other possibilities in. this is probably most pronounced in the case of religion. people seem to hold their religious beliefs more closely than any others, and they have the hardest time considering other ideas.

in my opinion (and i am not a religious person at all), the lack of tolerance on both sides stems from the nature of religious belief itself. it's all about faith... it's about believing in things you can't ever really see, and many people base their lives on these things. i think it's hard for religious people to consider things contrary to their faith because that is really all there is. for non-religious people, i think it's nearly impossible for them to understand how others can have this kind of faith.

i try not to ever bash... it's really just unproductive and hurtful. but sometimes it can't be helped. like anything else, when two sides can't understand each other, there's bound to be some kind of strife. i've seen things said or done in the name of religion that positively nausiate me. i try to focus my bashing on those particular instances and individuals.

and why especially christianity? my guess would be that america is so overwhelmingly christian, that you're just bound to hear christian bashing more, statistically.

EDIT: i realize that this is a very extreme circumstance, but i thought this might be an appropriate place to put this: <a href="http://gaytoday.badpuppy.com/garchive/world/102301wo.htm">on jerry falwell</a>

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the truth is that gossip's as good as gospel in this town
you can save face, but you won't ever save your soul

This message was edited by Arienette on 12-29-02 @ 9:53 AM

TheMojoPin

12-29-2002, 05:56 AM

Because often the loudest opponents of Christianty were raised Christian (Like myself), and thusly have more of an "insider's" take on it. They feel more personally effected by it, so that's what they rail against. Besides, it's the biggest sect, so it's the biggest target. And a lot of them are some of the least tolerant people on Earth, and that so flies in the face of a lot of their own preachings that it just can't help but infuriate those on the "outside".

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Gvac

12-29-2002, 06:20 AM

Right on, Heck! It's gotten to the point where a majority is fair game for any and all to mock, belittle, and even attack. If you do it to a minority, however, you're an unfeeling bigot.

This country is predominantly Christian, and the vast majority of those Christians are good, decent, tolerant people. They are often categorized as small-minded and backward, but nothing could be farther from the truth.

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the "religious right" is, to be honest. Is it an official organization? I've been unable to find their HQ anywhere. It's a tag line used by those who would mock or belittle anyone who desires a little morality and decency in their politicians.

Imagine the nerve.

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Happy Holidays to one and all!

BrianTheBailBondsman

12-29-2002, 06:31 AM

When ever I think of religion latley all that comes to mind is "The Horizonial Boggie In ST. Patrick's W.O.W!

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Arienette

12-29-2002, 06:32 AM

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the "religious right" is, to be honest. Is it an official organization? I've been unable to find their HQ anywhere. It's a tag line used by those who would mock or belittle anyone who desires a little morality and decency in their politicians.

Imagine the nerve.i don't mean to start anything here, but don't you think that saying that following the "religious right" (or whatever you want to call it) is for those who want a little morality and decency in their politicans just a little bigoted in itself? it implies that those who believe differently are seeking immorality and indecency in their politicians, no? i may be wrong here, but it seems to me that the main goal of the religious right has been to spread christianity throughout american society, a goal which is not shared by a non-religious jewish person like myself. to call this morality and decency infers that other ways are devoid of the same.

it's very easy to try to defend your point of view by degrading someone else's. imagine that.

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the truth is that gossip's as good as gospel in this town
you can save face, but you won't ever save your soul

TheMojoPin

12-29-2002, 07:42 AM

It's a tag line used by those who would mock or belittle anyone who desires a little morality and decency in their politicians.

No, it's used to warn and point out those that would have their politics and religion mixed. For shame.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

TheMojoPin

12-29-2002, 07:43 AM

This country is predominantly Christian, and the vast majority of those Christians are good, decent, tolerant people. They are often categorized as small-minded and backward, but nothing could be farther from the truth.

I'd say that's really only true if you pretend like homosexuals don't exist. I've gone to Christian churches all over the world and this country, and I'd say a good 75% railed against gays in one way or another.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

fatty

12-29-2002, 07:48 AM

being a former catholic who's still deciding what he believes in i have to say that many of these points made are right.

many people against religion are those who were brought up in it and feel the need to speak out on all the wrongs they see that they were never allowed to say.

also, i think another main reason that people feel the need to bash rather than just "tolerate" the church is that besides the fact the church does not tolerate those who disagree with them, the church is constantly giving us logs to feed the fire.

look at the opie and anthony situation, they were so OUTRAGED at what happened with them, they wouldn't stop until they got them fired...

but then you look at all these situations with these priests and it's like, so it's more important to get rid of shock jocks than to get rid of pediphiles? if they put 1/10th of the effort they did into the o and a thing into making sure their priests didn't molest boys then a lot more children would have been saved.

but the media doesn't even talk about it anymore, or if they do it's always some isolated story on the back of page 59. you don't think the catholic church has a say in putting those kinds of news stories in the back?

i don't mind people who have faith, i used to think of them as narrow minded but i have learned to except the fact that some people need faith. my mom loves God and i disagree with many of her beliefs but i do not look down on her for it, i just except it.

in general though, the catholic church makes it very hard to just tolerate them without bashing them.

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This message was edited by fatty on 12-29-02 @ 11:57 AM

TheMojoPin

12-29-2002, 07:57 AM

i don't mind people who have faith, i used to think of them as narrow minded but i have learned to except the fact that some people need faith. my mom loves God and i disagree with many of her beliefs but i do not look down on her for it, i just except it.

in general though, the catholic church makes it very hard to just tolerate them without bashing them.

Exactly. Thanks, fatty, especially the idea about respecting faith. I have no problem with what Christians believe in, just how they relate to and judge the rest of society.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 12-29-02 @ 2:13 PM

TooCute

12-29-2002, 09:01 AM

Just out of curiosity, who
are the people who are
'constantly bashing'
religion?

Are there more of them than
those who 'constantly bash'
any other large group of
people?

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ADF makes great sigpics!

Coco

12-29-2002, 11:49 AM

Although I disliked John Kennedy for a number of reasons, one thing that he said when people had questioned him on his ability to run for the presidency because he was Catholic and running in a substantially protestant nation was that "this nation was founded on the ability for people to maintain their religious freedom". I think that is important for us to remember.

______________________

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This message was edited by Coco on 12-29-02 @ 4:42 PM

HordeKing1

12-29-2002, 07:34 PM

HK, what's your opinion regarding people who are constantly bashing religion, especially Christianity?
Whatever happened to tolerance?

As I'm sure you know, in my opinion all religions are ridiculous and hurtful. They deprive the person of what they need most to help achieve their potential - belief in themselves as the highest power.

I've seen clinically, many people whose religious upbringing has caused them to develop all manners of mental problems.

Although only some religions are are evil in concept and execution, all of them are responsible for much misery, ESPECIALLY, but not exclusively, to members of a different cult.

The "pious" religious people are firm in their pscyhotic-like delusions that they have the only true god given morality, and that their reality is the only accurate one.

Others, myself included, remain convinced that religion is a crutch for people to rely on when they are unable to face things themselves. Although we regard it as harmful, hateful, and hurtful, we respect anyone's rights to do what they want, so long as it doesn't interfere with other's rights.

That's why I find anti-abortionist (almost all religious) so offensive. They seek is to impose their morality on others. Relegions have zero tolerance for anyone not in the particular branch of the club they're in.

Now I'm off to a meeting of the "No Homers Club"

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luvmedoo

12-29-2002, 07:48 PM

njdmmoe... WELL SAID!!!

Can't buy me love....

Coco

12-30-2002, 12:12 PM

Hatred is so sad.

______________________

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TheMojoPin

12-30-2002, 02:00 PM

<img src=http://www.penguinputnam.com/static/packages/us/sopranos/images/pictures/livia.jpg>

This whole thread deserves a very righteous, "awwwww, poor YOU!!!"

Suck it up, whitey.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

tricia

12-30-2002, 02:17 PM

I've seen clinically, many people whose religious upbringing has caused them to develop all manners of mental problems.ah that's a relief. i can continue blaming my guilt issues on my catholic upbringing instead of addressing my paranoia issues. excellent.

Gvac

12-30-2002, 02:17 PM

Horde King, there is a tremendous difference between believing in oneself and striving to reach your full potential and believing in oneself as the highest power.

Anyone who would assign such importance to themself is rather foolish and egotistical, wouldn't you say?

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Happy Holidays to one and all!

ADF

12-30-2002, 03:22 PM

Anyone who would assign such importance to themself is rather foolish and egotistical, wouldn't you say?

See, you're assuming that the athiest is putting him or herself in the place of the "higher power." We don't believe in a higher power. Unless the athiest in question is an anarchist, we look to the social contract and nature to govern our lives. Sad as it may be, but I'd much rather rely on society's ability to govern itself than some otherworldly, invisible power to tell me the difference between right and wrong. Humanity makes a lot of mistakes (the invention of religion being one of them, in my opinion), but it has a better track record than god in solving our problems. I don't see god coming up with treatments for diseases. Mankind will be better off when it discards the notion of a higher power and embraces self-reliance.

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TheMojoPin

12-30-2002, 04:19 PM

Hey, Godheads. If we bother you so much, pray to your big, invisible man in the clouds to smite us with his furious anger or something. Otherwise, suck it up. If we're right, hey, there's nothing afterwards, and you wasted a lot of time during your life. If you're right...well, you'll probably go to hell with the rest of us, since everything seems to be a sin one way or the other, given the confoundingly hypocritcal and contradictory nature of the Bible. So you're screwed either way!

HA-HAH!
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Actually, I do believe God exists, I just think it doesn't really care about us. The universe is a big, biiiiig place...

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

NewYorkDragons80

12-31-2002, 08:18 AM

That's why I find anti-abortionist (almost all religious) so offensive. They seek is to impose their morality on others. Relegions have zero tolerance for anyone not in the particular branch of the club they're in
My personal opinion on abortion is formed on my own opinion, not the particular church I subscribe to (although my opinion happens to agree with my church.)

I think most of those who subscribe to a particular religion stand at odds with their church on certain issues. For example, I disagree with the Catholicism's view of divorce.

Any thinking person, (and religious people are thinking people, contrary to what some of you may say) knows what their personal convictions are and probably arrived at them WITHOUT their church, rather through their personal experiences. The "robot" that some of you portray religious individuals as is few and far between.

Of course there are instances when religion is divisive, but so is patriotism, wealth, and language. It is very rare that the creed of an individual actually leads to violence. More often, it is their ethnicity.

Mojo, by rallied do you mean protest?

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 12-31-02 @ 12:37 PM

TheMojoPin

12-31-2002, 09:13 AM

Mojo, by rallied do you mean protest?

Actually, I said "railed". But the most frustrating part was that there really wasn't anyone speaking out against what the priests or church officials would be saying about homosexuals. They wouldn't be openly agreeing and cheering, but at the same time nobody was bothering to disagree. It was just like, "well, he's a priest, so what can I do?" I spoke out often and loudly on countless church politcal issues in the warious religious schooling I had over the years, and could never get a straight answer or dialogue going because either I was just viewed as a "child" or arguing against the "word of God".

I don't subscribe to the "religious robot" theory for most devout Christians, but FAR too many freely mix their politics with their religion, which I'm sorry, you simply cannot do. The instances of "God" in government affairs are simply superfical "decoration", and do not actually dictate what American domestic policy should be. If history has taught us anything, it's that government and religion is a dangerous, heady mix that simply does not work and ensures inevitable instability.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

HordeKing1

12-31-2002, 09:41 AM

GVAC wrote:
Horde King, there is a tremendous difference between believing in oneself and striving to reach your full potential and believing in oneself as the highest power. Anyone who would assign such importance to themself is rather foolish and egotistical, wouldn't you say?

On the contrary. Religion is the height of arrogance. We're less than a speck in a virtually infinite cosmos. Yet religions maintain that the universe was created for man. The church kept the world in the aptly named "dark ages" supressing any hint of science that contradicted creationism. They (and other religions are completely humancentric. That is arrogant beyond "belief." The gall to assume that even if a creator existed that it or they would give a rat's ass about us!

TRICIA wrote:
ah that's a relief. i can continue blaming my guilt issues on my catholic upbringing instead of addressing my paranoia issues. excellent.

You must take responsibility for your actions, not blame some invisible man in the sky. That is delusional thinking consistent with psychos. (It's socially accepted psychosis, but it pyschosis nonetheless.) Your religious upbringing certainly contributed to whatever problems you're encountering now. You are responsible for you.

NYDRAGON wrote:
My personal opinion on abortion is formed on my own opinion, not the particular church I subscribe to (although my opinion happens to agree with my church.)

Your opinions and perceptions are filtered through your environment and the "social lens" particular to your upbringing. Your opinions are shaped by your experiences and upbringing. Even if your parents were atheists, America is a Christian country, and Christian "values" (hah!) prevail.

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The Blowhard

12-31-2002, 10:28 AM

HK,you once mentioned that you raise your children to be Jewish.Do you feel the same way about Judaism and do you tell them that they believe in "fairytales"?
And to some of you: Christianity runs the gamut from Catholicism to Protestantism to Orthodoxy. There are many types of Christians and denominations.
To equate Jerry Falwell to all Christians is the same as comparing all Jews to Meir Kahane.
Happy New Year,and Shalom.

TheMojoPin

12-31-2002, 11:08 AM

There are many types of Christians and denominations.

None of which should be inflicting THEIR beliefs and values on American society as a whole and the affairs of government. I mean, good great googly-moogly, we're not called the "melting pot" for kicks. Too many people assume that their belief and value system is what's right for the rest of the country, and even the world.

It doesn't matter if you're demanding prayer should be in school, protesting abortion clinics, or suicide bombing yourself in a city street; these actions ALL are attempting inflict a PERSONAL religious belief on a populace as a whole. Yes, these are all varying degrees of severity (So don't hide behind the tiresome "how DARE you compare me to..." argument), but the ultimate goal is the same: YOU better believe what *I* believe and value, or there's gonna be trouble.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 12-31-02 @ 3:25 PM

NewYorkDragons80

12-31-2002, 11:57 AM

I wouldn't group abortion with the "You better believe what I believe," because I believe that to perform an abortion is to infringe on the rights of the child. Without sidetracking this into another debate, prayer in public schools and God in the pledge of allegiance are mixing beliefs with politics. Abortion, on the other hand, is usually a secular issue (or at least it should be.) Whenever I am on another message board trying to debate abortion, I start banging my head on the keyboard when someone on my side of the issue brings up their deity and how it relates to their view of abortion.

Hordeking, we'll never know if I would be against abortion if I were not Catholic, but I can't see myself supporting what I perceive to be a violation of human rights.

Mojo, there's nothing I can say that is going to change your experience with certain people. Perhaps your experience in other parts of the country is do in part to the overall brand of culture. They represent me as much as Mao and Stalin represent atheism. If you were to poll people in the Northeast and the Southeast on their opinion of gays, I think the Southeast would generally have a negative opinion REGARDLESS of religion. As you may or may not know, I posted on this board that I think the government should recognize gay marriage. That's an example of personal religious beliefs not interfering with political beliefs.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 12-31-02 @ 4:20 PM

Coco

12-31-2002, 12:19 PM

Horde King: Calling people who have religous beliefs as "psycotic" is not only morally wrong, but ethically wrong because it is not even accepted within the guidelines in your own field of psychology.

It is also a blatently inflammatory hate-filled statement to make.

______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive

This message was edited by Coco on 12-31-02 @ 4:36 PM

TheMojoPin

12-31-2002, 12:36 PM

Dragon, the problem here is that we're having a somewhat sensible, reasoned debate, so we're obviously NONE of the people we're actually complaining about. And unfortunately, we're not the ones making the biggest stink in public based on our religious beliefs (Or lack thereof).

Also, you're defended yourself personally against very broad, socially expansive comments made by myself. I'm mostly referring to "causes" or pushes to make politcal or social reform in this country that is, for better or for worse, often unfluenced by religion. I cannot judge each and every Christian, and I'm not going to try to. But the fact remains that a shitload of current affairs in the world today are backed or caused by people who are trying to make or use their religion as a guiding force in the significant decisions of the time, and that will always infuriate me to no end.

<img src=http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/mojopin3.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

Arienette

01-01-2003, 12:29 PM

To equate Jerry Falwell to all Christians is the same as comparing all Jews to Meir Kahane. first off, when i mentioned falwell, i prefaced it by saying that it was extreme. i don't think that anyone could read that as having inferred that i was equating him with all christians, or even with a large group of christians... hence the word extreme. i was just trying to make a point about how hateful and insane some people who consider themselves highly religious and moral will go in the name of their faith

<img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/ari2.gif" height=100 width=300</img>

the truth is that gossip's as good as gospel in this town
you can save face, but you won't ever save your soul

This message was edited by Arienette on 1-1-03 @ 4:32 PM

Death Metal Moe

01-01-2003, 02:15 PM

All I know is that I sent $1000 bucks to the 700 club. And if they can't keep the homosexuals out of my town and get me into heaven, I'm gonna starting praying to Buddah or some shit.

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Thebazile78

01-01-2003, 05:35 PM

everyone thinks that they are right and their way is the best way

And it's that kind of fanaticism that flies planes into buildings.

"If human beings stopped exercising their lips, their brains would start working" - Ford Prefect

A.J.

01-01-2003, 06:19 PM

And it's that kind of fanaticism that flies planes into buildings.

Or blows up abortion clinics/shoots doctors that perform abortions.

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The Blowhard

01-02-2003, 01:08 PM

I'm pretty sure that HK is the long lost missing brother of Ayn Rand. And now for your viewing pleasure:http://www.imb.org/core/videoviewer/task/jesus_low.asp

Gvac

01-02-2003, 01:31 PM

I just have to laugh. I mean, it's absolutely hysterical that the people who claim they dislike religion because of its intolerance are extremely intolerant when it comes to religion.

Kind of the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think?

<img src=http://gvac.50megs.com/images/gvacxmas.jpg>

Happy Holidays to one and all!

TooCute

01-02-2003, 01:46 PM

I just have to laugh. I
mean, it's absolutely
hysterical that the people
who claim they dislike
religion because of its
intolerance are extremely
intolerant when it comes to
religion.
Kind of the pot calling the
kettle black, don't you think?

Who is intolerant? Intolerant
means being unwilling to
allow or endure another
person's beliefs. I am
perfectly happy to let you
believe that you are going to
heaven, in creationism, or
not have an abortion.

If people kept their religion
to themselves, I wouldn't
care.

But if you tell me that my
child must pledge
allegiance to god in school,
that they must not be taught
evolution, or that I can not
have an abortion, you're
damn right that I am
intolerant.

Do unto others as you
would have them do unto
you, right?

If I said that no, you are
wrong for believing in god,
you must believe in
evolution, and you must
believe that abortion is
every woman's right, THEN I
am being intolerant.

By no means is it a pot
calling a kettle black.

All I am saying is believe
whatever you want to
believe, and let me believe
what I want to without being
bashed by you for it.

Oh, and if your religion is
what is telling you that you
must impose its morality on
me, damn straight I am
intolerant of your religion.
No argument there.

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ADF makes great sigpics!

The Chairman

01-02-2003, 02:34 PM

I just enjoyed sitting back and reading these posts. Whether I agree with them or not, it's great to see our community writing well and with conviction on something other than batching or drinking. In particular njddmmoe and toocute, mojo, everyone.

Rather than start a new thread, I will just say that I defy anyone to argue against my opinion that religion has clearly caused more HARM than good in this world. Past Present and Future.

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thanks ADF for the SigPic!!
slanted and enchanted...

Coco

01-02-2003, 03:03 PM

Rather than start a new thread, I will just say that I defy anyone to argue against my opinion that religion has clearly caused more HARM than good in this world.

I truly believe, without a doubt, that on even A MINUTE-TO-MINUTE basis throughout the world that MILLIONS of decisions are made not to kill, commit adultery, steal, rape, etc. JUST ON THE BASIS OF ONE'S RELIGIOUS BELIEFS ALONE.

Sure, absolutely, there have been scattered wars because of misinterpretation of scripture, or greed, or politics by a few individuals in power, but it can't be compared, I believe, again, to the millions of decisions made minute-by-minute by millions of people throughout the world not to create chaos or harm own's neighbor.

12 step programs, which attribute their most basic step to relying on a higher power has transformed literally MILLIONS of lives (where NOTHING else has worked for these people.)

In my own life, my religion has brought me an unbelievable amount of peace, security and happiness that nothing in this world can compare to.

______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive

This message was edited by Coco on 1-2-03 @ 7:33 PM

HordeKing1

01-02-2003, 04:03 PM

HECLER WROTE:
HK,you once mentioned that you raise your children to be Jewish.Do you feel the same way about Judaism and do you tell them that they believe in "fairytales"?

Yes, Heckler, I did tell you in private about the dilema I faced bringing up my kids the way my wife wants and the way I want. In repsponse to your public query the answer is; absolutely. The two older kids (15 and 11) know exactly how I feel about religion. They know I don't believe in God and that I believe ALL religions to be the work of man, and harmful to society. They know that I feel it's a means of social control and oppression and a tool to "keep people in their place."

I don't know why you think my criticism of religion is limited to christianity. All religions are bad. To my mind there is no difference b/w the heaven's gate cult, islam, judaism and christianity. They are all detrimental to society and equally silly. They are sometimes adaptive for a particular individual but they continue to fuck up the world.

As I told you, I send them to yeshiva b/c that's what my very religious wife wants. They know that she believes and that she disagrees with my viewpoint. But you know what? It's OK that we disagree. She has her beliefs and practices and I have different ones. So what? She's the best person I know and that's all that matters to me.

My job as a parent is to foster an environment where the kids are free to choose to do what they wish in this matter (and to have the ability to do so). Would I be disappointed if they chose religion? Perhaps. It would mean that I have not instilled in them sufficient self-reliance and that they had to rely on the boogeyman and mythos of paradise. On the other hand my wife would be disappointed if they were not religious. If they are not religious, they are deprived of a potential adaptive coping mechanism. (Of course, it's just as likely if not more likely to be maladaptive.) In actuallity, it's not my choice or hers - children grow up and become autonomous and usually much different from their parents. They must be free to make their own choices.

NYDRAGON WROTE:
Hordeking, we'll never know if I would be against abortion if I were not Catholic, but I can't see myself supporting what I perceive to be a violation of human rights.

That's very well said, Dragon. Our environment influences us so much that we often cannot tell which thoughts are independant and which are the result of exposure to ideas or values, or traditions around us. It applies to you, me and everyone in the world. (Noted feminist psychologist Sandra Bem called it the Cultural Lens, b/c we percieve all reality through it's focus.)

COCO wrote:
Horde King: Calling people who have religous beliefs as "psycotic" is not only morally wrong, but ethically wrong because it is not even accepted within the guidelines in your own field of psychology. It is also a blatently inflammatory hate-filled statement to make.

You'll have to explain this to me b/c I don't understand your logic at all. Let me first define psychosis. Psychosis is a break from reality characterized by delusions or hallucinations. The mental wards are full of schizophrenics claiming to have heard the voice of god, just as some people did millenium ago.

The difference b/w "normal" religious delusions of god and "abnormal" psychotic delusions of the existence of god, is that the former is now socially acceptable and the latter is not. Yet just a few centuries, the pscyhotics were thought to be prophets. Now we lock them up and/or treat them to cure them of their psychotic delusions.

The fact that religion is socially acceptable, results in it's not being in the DSM as psychotic behavior. It's akin to the DSM listing just anorexia and bullemia as eating disorders and ommitting the vastly far more common eating disorder - obesity. Since there are so many obese Americans, it's not considered pathological but it's still a problem.

I've never diagnosed someone w/religi

Thebazile78

01-02-2003, 05:45 PM

Or blows up abortion clinics/shoots doctors that perform abortions.

Among other things. . .

"If human beings stopped exercising their lips, their brains would start working" - Ford Prefect

TheMojoPin

01-02-2003, 06:20 PM

I just have to laugh. I mean, it's absolutely hysterical that the people who claim they dislike religion because of its intolerance are extremely intolerant when it comes to religion.

Kind of the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think?

Not in the slightest, since none of us are advocating violence against these religions, or trying to dismantle their organization. We simply want them to leave us alone and stop trying to inflict their values and beliefs on everyone else because they assume that's what's "best" for all of us. Go and worship and live how you want, but leave me, my community, my schools and my government the heck alone.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/hey%20you.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-2-03 @ 10:23 PM

ADF

01-02-2003, 06:32 PM

alexc

01-02-2003, 06:43 PM

Personally , I am non religious. Here is my take. Religion is not the problem. It is people who do things in the name of religion is the problem. Best examples are homophobia and other forms hatemongering. However, People perform acts of kindness in the name of religion too. It is the individual who decides how to use religion.
just my 2 cents
alex

Thebazile78

01-02-2003, 06:49 PM

I'm sure there are some militant atheists out there

Yes, we call them "college Freshmen".

I've heard the quote, as I'm sure you all have too, "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it". . .

The First Amendment to our Constitution reads:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Let's think about this for a sec, shall we? We're unique among the nations of the world in that we can both refuse to establish a state religion AND not censor crackpots like Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson because their speech is protected by our basic document of government.

People may assemble for either anti-abortion protests, religious services, Klan gatherings or civil rights protests and not fear governmental retribution, provided it does not turn violent.

We also have the right to tell our government's officers that we don't like the way things are being handled, and suggest to them an avenue for improvement, without fear of repercussions (Alien, Sedition and Patriot Acts aside. . .they scare me, you know).

It's unfortunate that folks use this very freedom, as spelled out and protected by our country's founding forces, to deny it to the people it's protecting just as much as it has protected them.

Wow. You realize that this discussion would totally not take place in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, China, Vatican City . . . I think you get the picture. . .

"If human beings stopped exercising their lips, their brains would start working" - Ford Prefect

This message was edited by Thebazile78 on 1-5-03 @ 7:22 PM

Recyclerz

01-02-2003, 07:55 PM

1st thing, nice points by alexc and Thebazile, and really, everybody above me. 
Although something of a mushy agnostic myself, I feel compelled to side with the Goddies on some points here. 
Mojo, you seem to be arguing for a complete separation of religious conviction and political speech/action. None of which should be inflicting THEIR beliefs and values on American society as a whole and the affairs of government. With Falwell, Wildmon et al. I'm reflexively with you. But should we have held Martin Luther King, Jr. to the same rules? Ghandi? The Dalai Lama? 
Horde King and Chairman K 
I know from reading your posts that you are both smarter than me and are capable of distinguishing some pretty fine points and nuances of arcanum but you seem to be painting with a pretty broad brush here. By setting up intolerant and dumbed down religious practices as your straw men it is easy to make religion look like superstition only. And for a lot of people it is. But I think that, like most human endeavors, religion covers a pretty wide spectrum from the sublime to the ridiculous. 
More later; I'm being distracted by the ho's on HBO at the moment. Hallelujiah:-) 


You're only young once, but you can be immature forever.

This message was edited by Recyclerz on 1-3-03 @ 1:32 AM

TheMojoPin

01-02-2003, 07:58 PM

But should we have held Martin Luther King, Jr. to the same rules? Ghandi? The Dalai Lama?

On what basis? The idea of nonviolence? Social and racial equality? I'm not saying you can't be a religious figure and not hold public office or be a public figure...these guys were, but they championed UNIVERSAL social causes over all else, not specific fringe beliefs. Who can sanely argue against racial and social equality and nonviolence? When someone like Falwell pushes an agenda, he makes the Bible or the "word of God" a signifcant part of his argument. These other men did often use religion and their gods as unifying forces, but did not make them the crux of their arguments. Their causes focused on what MAN can do for himself and others themselves.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/hey%20you.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-3-03 @ 12:02 AM

Recyclerz

01-02-2003, 08:52 PM

Mojo, 
I guess the point I was trying to make is that the impulse that powered these men (and countless other men & women) to fight for positive social change arose at least in part (and I would argue in large part) from their religious convictions and the world view that their convictions shaped. 


You're only young once, but you can be immature forever.

TastelessGinny

01-02-2003, 09:13 PM

I have found this thread to be very interesting. For anyone interested in the breakdown of religion by major religious beliefs, here are some numbers courtesy of http://www.adherents.com:

There are more Christians than any other religion in the world (nubmer 2 is Islam). Here is how Christianity breaks down, by name and number of followers:

Catholic 1,030,000,000
Orthodox/Eastern Christian 240,000,000
African indigenous sects (AICs) 110,000,000
Pentecostal 105,000,000
Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational/United 75,000,000
Anglican 73,000,000
Baptist 70,000,000
Methodist 70,000,000
Lutheran 64,000,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 14,800,000
Adventist 12,000,000
Latter Day Saints 11,500,000
Apostolic/New Apostolic 10,000,000
Stone-Campbell ("Restoration Movement") 5,400,000
New Thought (Unity, Christian Science, etc.) 1,500,000
Brethren (incl. Plymouth) 1,500,000
Mennonite 1,250,000
Friends (Quakers) 300,000

Note that there are VAST diferences in these various flavors of Christianity; really the ONLY basic thing that is shared throughout is the belief in Jesus Christ, and use of the New Testament in teaching (although the Catholic New Testament {and old testament} is different from the KJV).

Now, for the rest of the world's religions, by rank:

1 Christianity
2 Islam
3 Hinduism
4 Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist
5 Buddhism
6 Chinese traditional religion
7 primal-indigenous
8 African Traditional & Diasporic
8 Sikhism
9 Juche
10 Spiritism
11 Judaism
12 Baha'i
13 Jainism
14 Shinto
15 Cao Dai
16 Tenrikyo
17 Neo-Paganism
18 Unitarian-Universalism
19 Rastafarianism
20 Scientology
21 Zoroastrianism

Here are some quizzes you might fin dinteresting:

What is your belief type?: http://www.beliefnet.com/section/quiz/index.asp?sectionID=&surveyID=27

What religion is best for you? http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

Take the tests, and see if your beliefs fit the religion you were raised as. :)

<center>Ron & Fez Class of 2000 Old-old-old school crew <img src="http://www.ginnysanchez.com/ginsig.jpg"></center>

TheMojoPin

01-02-2003, 09:31 PM

Damn you and your crazy logic, Ginny...

She must be a witch! BURN HER!

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/hey%20you.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

Arienette

01-02-2003, 09:36 PM

She must be a witch! BURN HERshe turned me into a newt... i got better

i feel like we've done this before..

<img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/ari2.gif" height=100 width=300</img>

i sat watching a flower as it was withering
i was embarassed by its honesty

ADF

01-02-2003, 10:10 PM

Friends (Quakers) 300,000

I hear they eat a lot of oatmeal down in Friendship Heights.

<img src = http://www.nycsubway.org/us/washdc/images/wmata-frship01.jpg width = 248 height = 168>

<center><img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/adf5a.gif>
Ce sachet d'emballage n'est pas un jouet.</center>

TastelessGinny

01-02-2003, 10:34 PM

I hear they eat a lot of oatmeal down in Friendship Heights.

Actually, Quaker Oatmeal is not a Quaker (religious Society of Friends) product, but Cadbury Chocolate origianlly was a Quaker product.

chocolate: mmm-mmm-good!

<center>Ron & Fez Class of 2000 Old-old-old school crew <img src="http://www.ginnysanchez.com/ginsig.jpg"></center>

IrishAlkey

01-02-2003, 10:40 PM

Ginny just took a big crap all over ADF's joke.

<center><IMG SRC="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=IrishAlkey"></center>
<marquee>I'M KIDDING!</marquee>

Arienette

01-02-2003, 10:45 PM

Ginny just took a big crap all over ADF's joke.dont you mean HSC?

<img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/ari2.gif" height=100 width=300</img>

i sat watching a flower as it was withering
i was embarassed by its honesty

IrishAlkey

01-02-2003, 10:46 PM

I'm more of a Shop At Home kinda' guy.

<center><IMG SRC="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=IrishAlkey"></center>
<marquee>I'M KIDDING!</marquee>

TheGameHHH

01-02-2003, 11:01 PM

Does religion ever NOT cause
an argument???

<img src= http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/hhh.gif>
Thanks ADF

TastelessGinny

01-02-2003, 11:03 PM

Ginny just took a big crap all over ADF's joke.

Wait a minute...

That's not chocolate!

POOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

<center>Ron & Fez Class of 2000 Old-old-old school crew <img src="http://www.ginnysanchez.com/ginsig.jpg"></center>

The Blowhard

01-03-2003, 08:35 AM

The best religion is the most tolerant.

NewYorkDragons80

01-04-2003, 04:12 AM

Vatican City
I hear the Swiss Guard has one of the world's most brutal police forces. I know they only number 200 and their only defense is a large, immobile sword, but word has a way of getting around in a small town.

Some of you really need to think before you post.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1
<img src=http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/newyorkdragons80/garcianj.jpg>

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 1-4-03 @ 8:19 AM

NewYorkDragons80

01-04-2003, 04:15 AM

I'm sure there are some militant atheists out there, trying to "convert" religious people to their side, but I'm guessing the ratio of atheists to athiest "zealots" is laughable compared to the ratio of religious people to their respective zealots/"converters."
I would say it's just about the same percentage-wise. Atheists are only in the range of about 10% of mankind, so the numbers would not be comparable. However, the percentages are most definitely comparable.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1
<img src=http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/newyorkdragons80/garcianj.jpg>

The Chairman

01-04-2003, 06:15 AM

One of my New Year's resolutions was to keep my post lengths down (I'm sure you're all happy). Rather than write a typical LONG response, I will instead focus on keeping my POST COUNT up and just throw lines here and there on this one...

Sure, absolutely, there have been scattered wars because of misinterpretation of scripture,

Two Words: The Crusades
Two Words: The Inquisition
Two Words: The Holocaust
Two Words: The Entifada
Two Words: Tutsi and Hutu
Two Words: Northern Ireland
Two Words: India Pakistan
Two Words: Iraq Kurds
Two Words: Sri Lanka
Two Words: Priests Boys
Two Words: Meir Kahane

I can overload the RnF server with examples.

I think Too Cute's post summed it up best. You have your view and let me have mine. But don't force your shit down my throat.

Also, HK, I usually enjoy reading your posts, but I think you went over the line in some of your responses. I don't think we need to insult people. I think the facts speak for themselves.

More thoughts:

Until God shows up and says what up to me I won't believe in him.

I have four friends who are in therapy now b/c they were abused by priests.

I worked for a Consulting firm owned by Orthodox Jews for a year and they made people work on Christmas and fired someone for working on the Sabbath.

And finally:

I saw a baby die in my hospital because her Jehova Witness parents refused a blood transfusion...nice religion there too.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/headi.gif>
thanks ADF for the "alt" SigPic!! (c) gsheld 2001
slanted and enchanted...

NewYorkDragons80

01-04-2003, 07:56 AM

Two Words: The Crusades
Two Words: The Inquisition
Two Words: The Holocaust
Two Words: The Entifada
Two Words: Tutsi and Hutu
Two Words: Northern Ireland
Two Words: India Pakistan
Two Words: Iraq Kurds
Two Words: Sri Lanka
Two Words: Priests Boys
Two Words: Meir Kahane
Of these, the only one truly driven by actual dogma was the Inquisition. Admittedly, that is a huge black eye for myself as a Catholic.

The Holocaust was about race, not religion. 3 Million Catholics died in the Holocaust, as did Protestants, Homosexuals, and Gypsies. Were various religious individuals guilty of war crimes? Yes, there were undoubtedly Protestants and Catholic members of the SS and Jews who were Capos, known to be even more brutal than the SS in some instances. By the same token, many more of the SS and Nazi leaders were atheists, but I do not blame non-theism for this senseless act of brutality.

Northern Ireland is about who holds the power and the land. The main complaint among the Catholics in Northern Ireland is that it truly is their land. Almost every Protestant in Northern Ireland has no Irish lineage greater than 400 years. Again, it's about race, not religion.

The Crusades was about King Louis of France trying to expand his empire. Aside from the first Crusade, there were more deaths attributed to feuding Crusaders (British against French) than combat against Saracens. Keep in mind that at this time, Henry VIII had not yet separated from the Pope so dogmatically they had no differences. By almost all accounts from people of all religions, the Crusades was about wealth and land and the Holy Land was an afterthought. (The Christians finally did win the Crusades in 1918 for a much more noble reason.)

The Iraqi Kurds are Sunnis, sharing their dogma with Saddam Hussein himself (at least culturally, as Saddam is probably not a pious individual.) This is further proof of violence in the name of ethnicity.

Two Words: Tutsi and Hutu
I am unfamiliar with this, but that's three words all-star.

In conclusion, we need to destroy ethnicity. It is the most destructive trait in history.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1
<img src=http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/newyorkdragons80/garcianj.jpg>

The Chairman

01-04-2003, 08:24 AM

Whay can't we be friends?

NY Dragons et. al.

I will break my New Year's Resolution...

The response to my last post has its share of inaccuracies, just like mine did (thanks for pointing out the fact that Hutu+Tutsi+and=3 words. GREAT CATCH. I am so embarrassed!)

I guess the answer is so much simpler...(but it's not)...If there was no religion, there would be no Jews, right? Therefore there would have been no Jews (or Catholics for that matter) to be singled out for persecution and death, right?

The spirit of my post was not as much anti-religion (although that was the "Topic" so I humbly apologize for digressing) but about intolerance in general; although religion does have its fair share of examples.

Go to a Celtic vs. Rangers game in Scotland. You get the shit beat out of you for wearing a Rangers jersey in a Celtic area, not because people don't like the color green, but because, more than geography, it symbolizes the religious intolerance and polarity that is rampant in Great Britain.

And I plain disagree that the issue of Northern Ireland is just about who holds the land. I was there, and there is unbelievable acrimony based upon RELIGION! Why else do they bomb Protestant churches and Catholic grade schools?

The Crusades not about religion and dogma? The Crusades were ALL ABOUT holy wars fought to "defend" the Catholic church and the Christian people against those who were regarded as "external and internal" enemies of Christendom. Why were they "enemies"? Because they were NOT Christians; they were Muslim, pagan Slavs, Ottoman Turks, and Cathars, among others.

You don't think the Arab-Israeli conflict has anything to do with religion and is just about land? I say give the West Bank and Gaza to the Arab Muslims. All of a sudden they'll start loving the Jews, right? Start dancing Hava-Negila in the streets!Cause it's just over land, right?

India and Pakistan. Just over geography? Pakistan was divided from India (and Eastern Pakistan, later Bangladesh) because of the concentrations of Muslims in those areas. And the Indians and Pakistanis can't stand each other, not because they want a better view of Kashmir's bucolic settings, but because of Hindi/Muslim acrimony.

Hutus killing 500,000 Tutsis in Rwanda and hacking off hundreds of thousands of children's arms because of tribal/caste differences...

This is obviously a complex and divisive issue. Like they say, you should never talk about death, religion or politics. But at least we're not killing each other here.

And don't anyone get me started on hypocrisy in religion. All those good Catholics who use birth control and tolerate a church that refuses to allow women priests. All those Mafia hitmen who are in church on Sunday and killing people on Monday. All those militant Jews who make tons of money here and then send it back to Israel so more settlements can be built near Arab borders. All those Muslims who say they are "peace loving" and then fly planes into buildings where 5 of my friends died.

Perhaps my argument is better based promulgated as an indictment of extremism in any form...

Now I will go back to writing a long funny post. Cause I already broke my resolution on long posts and I like funny better...

CK1

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/headi.gif>
thanks ADF for the "alt" SigPic!! (c) gsheld 2001
slanted and enchanted...

This message was edited by Chairman_Kaga on 1-4-03 @ 1:21 PM

HordeKing1

01-04-2003, 02:29 PM

I'm sure there are some militant atheists out there, trying to "convert" religious people to their side, but I'm guessing the ratio of atheists to athiest "zealots" is laughable compared to the ratio of religious people to their respective zealots/"converters."

NY DRAGON wrote:
I would say it's just about the same percentage-wise. Atheists are only in the range of about 10% of mankind, so the numbers would not be comparable. However, the percentages are most definitely comparable.

What do you base these statements on?

EDIT: "Atheism" in Microsoftr Encartar 98 Encyclopedia.
c1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation, lists a whopping 21% of the world's population as atheists (including both positive and negative athesits).

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

This message was edited by HordeKing1 on 1-4-03 @ 6:42 PM

HordeKing1

01-04-2003, 02:42 PM

The Crusades - Kill Jews and Moslems in the name of Jesus.

The Inquisition - Torture and kill Jews and other infidels in the name of Jesus.

The Holocaust - Germany was a nice Christian country which was ACTIVELY supported by the Catholic Church. The Nazi's were "good christians" and like their predecessors felt that killing the infidels (especially jews) was serving god's will. There are numerous books on this topic, many with terrific (actually horrifying of Hitler palling around with Catholic leadership in Germany and Rome. Hitler had the church's blessings. Of course there were non-jews killed as well. It was a war. Enemies of the state such as gays, and other "deviants" had to be eliminated in the name of the racial and religious superiority of christianity. You really need to read more on this topic. It appalls me that so little is known about the christian involvement in the Holocaust. If you're interested I can provide you a reading list for your edification. Hitler said that if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth. He used it to great effect then, and the arabs are using it to the same effect now. Which brings up:

The Intifada - About killing Jews in the name of Allah. I could write pages about this, but I alread have so if you're interested, look at the old posts. I can't refrain from quoting an article writen by an arab convert to christianity, Nonie Darwish published in FrontPageMagazine.com, December 30, 2002. The article is entitled, "The Daughter of an Arab Warrior Tells Her Tale." This is a very small quote, of a much larger indictment of Islam, the religious basis for hatred against the non-Islamic etc. Check out the full text of the article.

"...A Jewish person was portrayed like less than human, a dog, an evil alien from outer space who was about to destroy the world. Jews, they said, had no home because they were cursed by God and the main mission of Islam was to get rid of Jews."

That's always been the bottom line. One religious group hating and killing another b/c they worship a different set of gods and have different beliefs.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

NewYorkDragons80

01-04-2003, 05:09 PM

It appalls me that so little is known about the christian involvement in the Holocaust.

Perhaps you would like to read the quote of a fellow Jew who escaped Nazi Germany. In Time Magazine's December 23, 1940 issue on Page 38 Albert Einstein was quoted as saying the following:
Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...

Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

Golda Meir, a future Israeli Prime Minister, but then speaking as the United Nations representative from Israel said "During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and commiserate with the victims."

Israeli diplomat Pinchas Lapide, in his report on Catholic involvement during the second world war, had this to say "The Catholic Church under the pontificate of Pius XII was instrumental in saving lives of as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands."
He went on to add that this "figure far exceeds those saved by all other Churches and rescue organizations combined."

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1
<img src=http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/newyorkdragons80/garcianj.jpg>

NewYorkDragons80

01-04-2003, 05:29 PM

I will agree with Hordeking on this, the Nazis probably never set out to kill German Catholics who were willing to submit to them, whereas Jews did not have that luxury. So, the Catholics and Christians in general who were killed were usually not killed because they were Christian, but because they were enemies of the state. There was, however, the example of Father Jakob Gapp. When he declared Nazism and Christianity incompatible, it was not enough for the Nazis to kill him, they needed to kill members of his congregation as an example.

As for my saying 10% of the world are atheists, I probably was wrong on that. 10% is the approximate number of American atheists. I forgot that America is the second most spiritual western nation next to Ireland. Hordeking is 21% people who specifically say "I am an atheist," or does that include agnostics, indigenous beliefs, animists, and those in certain nations who have never been exposed to religion and have no opinion one way or the other?

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1
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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 1-4-03 @ 9:38 PM

NewYorkDragons80

01-04-2003, 05:40 PM

Whay can't we be friends?
I would've put a smiley face at the end of the 3 word comment, but that's more controversial than talking about religion or politics (Or both!)

Therefore there would have been no Jews (or Catholics for that matter) to be singled out for persecution and death, right?
The Jews were not ethnically pure by German standards. They arrived in Germany thanks to the Diaspora and had noticeable physical features which separated them from the rest of the German population.

And I plain disagree that the issue of Northern Ireland is just about who holds the land. I was there, and there is unbelievable acrimony based upon RELIGION! Why else do they bomb Protestant churches and Catholic grade schools?
As someone who has both Catholic and Protestant Irish blood, it's about land and politics. I'm going to say this again: Almost every Protestant in Ireland is not truly Irish, yet they hold the power in government and economics. The only reason there is a Northern Ireland today is because England wants to hold onto its land. The Ranger-Celtic rivalry and most other disputes in that region can be traced to the above reasons.

Because they were NOT Christians: they were Muslim, pagan Slavs, Ottoman Turks, and Cathars, among others.
And the British and French thought themselves superior to such people and wanted to expand their own wealth and land. The Muslims held that land for a number of years before anybody raised arms against them. They allowed Christians to visit, settle, and trade in the Holy Land. The Europeans monarchies and Pope Urban II declared a Crusade, but believe me when I say that the wars served a much more secular purpose.

This is obviously a complex and divisive issue. Like they say, you should never talk about death, religion or politics. But at least we're not killing each other here.
This has been a pretty adult conversation, so far... POOPHEAD

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1
<img src=http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/newyorkdragons80/garcianj.jpg>

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 1-4-03 @ 10:00 PM

Coco

01-05-2003, 10:10 AM

>I will agree with Hordeking on this, the Nazis probably never set out to kill German Catholics who were willing to submit to them.

I think you definitely underestimate Hitler's intelligence. Do you ACTUALLY think that he would have jeopardized his leadership in a Catholic country by causing ANY problems with the Catholic Church (despite what his feelings may have been towards the Church)?

This man was not in any way shape or form a Christian in any sense of the word. His deeds proved it.

Germany was in a total state of disrepair (in a bankrupt state - thanks to the Versailles Treaty) when he entered power. He took full advantage of a desperate, destitute nation. The people there were enthralled by him MAINLY because of how he brought Germany out of it's economic depressed state. I truly do not believe the average Jo Shmo German knew the extent to what was going on in those prison camps nor did the Pope.

Germany will be forever scarred by what this man did.

And, another point in fact, is that it was two predominately Christian nations (England and the U.S.) who intervened and put an end to the atrocities in those camps.

The Pope has apologized openly for any involvement (if any) during that war. What I find offensive are people who don't accept apologies and who continue to hold grudges. GRUDGES ARE IN A LARGE PART WHAT CAUSE WARS.

And, as I stated in an earlier thread, the Jews are not exactly "lily white" either. They killed hundreds of thousands of those not of their religion as described in the Old Testament.

--

Again, Horde King, saying that people who believe in God as "psychotic" is unethical and inaccurate.

--

Again, there have been scattered wars caused, not necessarily by religion, but by greed, power, misinterpretation of scripture, and politics. And the fact of the matter is, is that the SHEER NUMBERS of people involved in those wars can't even be compared to the BILLIONS of decisions that are made on a MINUTE TO MINUTE basis throughout the world NOT to kill, commit adultery, steal, lie, etc. DUE BASED SOLELY ON ONE'S RELIGOUS BELIEFS.

______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive

This message was edited by JustJon on 1-6-03 @ 9:40 PM

TheMojoPin

01-05-2003, 02:41 PM

And, as I stated in an earlier thread, the Jews are not exactly "lily white" either. They killed hundreds of thousands of those not of their religion as described in the Old Testament.

Uhm...I'd say the scales are still tipped WAAAAAAAAAY in the other guys' favor. Who are these "other guys"? Oh, right, EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD. The Jews are just about the most poo-poo'ed on group of people in history. Good luck trying to get them to catch up with all the killing in the name of Jesus.

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Tenbatsuzen

01-05-2003, 03:21 PM

Two Words: The Inquisition

Well, nobody expected THAT.

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ADF

01-05-2003, 06:43 PM

Go to a Celtic vs. Rangers game in Scotland. You get the shit beat out of you for wearing a Rangers jersey in a Celtic area

What? That doesn't make any sense. The Rangers would kill the Celtics.. they've got big hockey sticks and the Celtics would be all slidin' around on the ice with their basketball shoes.

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Ce sachet d'emballage n'est pas un jouet.</center>

billyio

01-05-2003, 07:38 PM

Just to point out about the the history of Christian Anti-Semitism...Christianity inherited Anti-Semitism from the Greek and Romans, i. e- Josephus' Jewish Wars and the Seleucid dynasty's resettlement policies. Since so much of classical ideology was assimilated into Christian culture, it was inevitable that Anti-Semitism would occur.

Also, I think people are confusing Hitler's Germany as Catholic, which it wasn't, it was Lutheran. Austria, Hitler's birthplace, on the otherhand, was Catholic, if that is where the incongruency is being made, although this is beside the point since we are dealing with Western tradition rather than any specific country.Regardless, Christianity is undoubtedly guilty of horrific crimes against other faiths.

Additionally, The Crusades were fought over a continuing state of war between the Byzantine Empire and the Muslims. When the Byzantines lost control of Anatolia(eastern Turkey) and Western pilgrims were encountering greater dangers in visiting the Holy Land, the Byzantine Emperor asked the Pope for aid in pushing back the Muslim threat to Jerusalem and Constantinople. Thus, the COuncil of Clermont in 1095 and voila, the Crusades ensued.

Finally, in my opinion, religion is flawed because of the practitioners. The philosophies behind religion are often noble and beneficial but since mankind is corrupt, thus, mankind's institutions will inevitably be corrupted as well. Just as political systems are, i. e. capitalism-stratification of society, communism(Leninism)-polarization of society and stifling of individual freedoms,etc.

See Ya!

This message was edited by billyio on 1-5-03 @ 11:58 PM

ADF

01-05-2003, 09:18 PM

HordeKing1

01-06-2003, 03:02 PM

I got a little sidetracked in this post as you can tell. Please read it through to the end.

NYDRAGON - I'd be most curious as to the source of the quote from Einstein. As I'm sure you know, Einstein was an atheist and steadfastly maintained his belief that God was a man made construct. He even said on his deathbed, that being not correcting people's misinterpretation that he believed in god was the biggest mistake of his life.

The fact that no institution stood up for the Jews, shows the complete involvment of the regular, average German in Hitler's extermination plan. Not as forced soldiers, but as willing participants. The Church's role was especially eggregious.

The Catholic Church did what it's done for centuries and continues to do today. Cover up it's evil and wrongdoing. Whether it's errecting crucifixes around concentration camps to taunt the Jews inside, or fucking young boys, the Catholic Church is terrific at covering up.

But it's not as good as it was. There are survivors who testify against them. There are perpetrators, Nazi's and Catholics (lay and in the Church) who testified regarding their participation in the attrocities.

Pious XII was "Hitler's Pope." Read the book of that name for insight into his evil mind. I also heartily recommend a book called "A Moral Reckoning: The Catholic Involvement in the Holocaust." There are many other books on the subject. There are still survivors to tell the story, and there are recorded statements form those who have died.

I have a client who is a survivor. He's told me of his good christian neighbors (not soldiers) who went out hunting jews for sport. I've spoken to more than 10 survivors in great depth about all sorts of things, from their experiences with the religiously fueled hatred of the German citezenry for Jews, to theology and cosmology. They, and all survivors experienced directly the involvement of the average german. Additionally, my father was in charge of one of the German POW camps (in Germany) after we won. Even there, the Germans spewed their hatred of Jews. Even there they called out to Jesus to kill the Allies and let Germany regain her glory.

How many survivors have you spoken to?

There were very very few non-monsterous Germans. The word "miniscule," is too vast a description.

These attitudes persist. They remain firmly entrenched in their "god given" Nazi ideals. It's almost enough to make the KKK look good by comparisson. Oh wait, they're also a religious group (Christians) who hate and kill people who are different than they.

Read this article. It addresses Coco's naive contention that the Average Joe" in Germany was not involved in the war against the Jews.

THE ETERNAL NAZI: A GERMAN AUDIENCE VIEWS ROMAN POLANSKI'S 'THE PIANIST'
by William Grim
Iconoclast Contributing Editor

There's an old joke that inside every German there's a Nazi yearning to get out. While a gross overstatement, there is, I'm unhappy to report, more than a little truth to that old chestnut. But more about that later.

Last week I had the opportunity in Munich to attend a screening of Roman
Polanski's new film The Pianist, a film that will not premiere in the United States for another month. This film is based on the true story of
the Polish Jewish piano virtuoso Wladyslaw Szpilman, who survived the entire Nazi occupation of Warsaw hiding in the Ghetto and at times being hidden right under the noses of the Nazis in safe houses maintained by the Polish Resistance. Simply put, POLANSKI'S film is a masterpiece. It is considerably better than Schindler's List and is undoubtedly the greatest Holocaust movie of all time. The Pianist has already won the Palm d'Or at Cannes. It deserves to win the Oscar.

What is remarkable about the film is its brutal and unflinching honesty. It avoids the cheap sentimentality that marred the otherwise exemplary
Schindler's List. The film also avoids stereotypes as much as possible. Not all of the Jews behave nobly, and one Nazi officer at the end of the film is shown to

HordeKing1

01-06-2003, 03:25 PM

COCO wrote:

I think you definitely underestimate Hitler's intelligence. Do you ACTUALLY think that he would have jeopardized his leadership in a Catholic country by causing ANY problems with the Catholic Church (despite what his feelings may have been towards the Church)?

You prove my point. He couldn't have done it without the active participation of the Catholic leadership and the support of all the "Good Christian Soldiers." Read "Hitler's Willing Executioners" for further elaboration.

And, another point in fact, is that it was two predominately Christian nations (England and the U.S.) who intervened and put an end to the atrocities in those camps.

When national interests are at stake, we find it easy to overlook religious similarities. Only a country where religious "values" persist can a Hitler come to power.

The Pope has apologized openly for any involvement (if any) during that war. What I find offensive are people who don't accept apologies and who continue to hold grudges. GRUDGES ARE IN A LARGE PART WHAT CAUSE WARS.

What causes war, is attacking another person or group. Religion has been responsible for all the hatred directed against all religious groups and spurs the hatred that continues to this day. It's not about grudges, it's about survival. And I'm not aware of anyone saying currently, that we should kill all the Germans. But being aware of them and the "values" that persist in the country is only common sense. All anyone wants form religious groups is to be left the fuck alone.

And, as I stated in an earlier thread, the Jews are not exactly "lily white" either. They killed hundreds of thousands of those not of their religion as described in the Old Testament.

You're absolutely right. In "biblical" times, the Jews killed lots of people in the name of religion. All religions are evil as they all cause suffering and strife. But you cannot begin to compare the suffering inflicted by christians upon non-christians to anything else. Even the Moslems are not yet caught up to the Christians in the murder-in-the-name-of-god department. (At least until they have a working nuke or biologic agent).

Again, Horde King, saying that people who believe in God as "psychotic" is unethical and inaccurate.

And again, you cannot explain why it is either unethical or inaccurate. (You said hateful last time as well). It is accurate. As I said before, it's a socially acceptable psychosis based upon delusion and hallucination of some schizophrenics or perhaps drug addicts from long ago.

Ethics and values are wonderful, terrific and necessary. But they are all derived from humans. We don't need to look for the supernatural to explain what we invented. In college you probably read some of the philosophy of Thomas Locke. The "social contract" dictates morality, not the invisible man, men, or women in the sky.

Finally, let me say that I'm pretty impressed with the quality of this discussion. People have expressed their opinion without resorting to getting personal.

We all know that no one is going to change anyone's mind. But the discussion, the journey to get to an idea, the examination of your own ideas and ideals is what this is all about.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

The Jays

01-06-2003, 03:56 PM

look at the opie and anthony situation, they were so OUTRAGED at what happened with them, they wouldn't stop until they got them fired... 
...private organization, The Catholic League... not to be confused with the Archdiocese of New York or the Catholic Church.... 
Religious people are intollerant of everyone who doesn't share their beliefs. 
... do not connect intollerance with all religious people, since it is something you simply cannot prove.... 
Just out of curiosity, who are the people who are 'constantly bashing' religion? 
... the ones who say that it does more harm than good.... 
Religious organizations contribute just as much to the community as a whole as do private organizations. Look at the numerous number of youth programs, CYO, JCC, sports leagues, Scouts, the support groups, and last but not least, the private schools in which some people actually prefer to send their kids to, regardless of the fact that they might be of the same religious background, simply because the education is superior to that of most public schools. 
Which would be better, to grow up not being taught the values and morals of a religion, or to grow up being taught those values, and then use that knowledge, combined with what is learned outside of the religious environment to come to your own conclusion? 

 Fuck what you heard.
 That cab has a dent in it. [center]
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HordeKing1

01-06-2003, 03:57 PM

A true system of ethics doesn't need the stamp of approval of god to apply.

You think I bash religion? I think it's crazy, but I'm all for people doing what they want. Just don't try to apply your beliefs to me. Unfortunately, we have yet to live in a society that does not fuck up their values with religious ideology.

Religion should be treated the same as smoking. Do it at home, apply your "morals" to yourself, but don't inflict that harmful stuff on anyone else.

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TooCute

01-06-2003, 04:11 PM

Quote:
Just out of curiosity, who
are the people who are
'constantly bashing'
religion?
... the ones who say that it
does more harm than
good....

What is that supposed to
mean? If you ask me I will
say that. I guess I
'constantly bash religion',
right?

What I don't understand is
that there really are people
constantly - and I mean
constantly - trying to bash
their religions 'morals' into
my head, and trying to force
- not even convince, but
force - me to act the way
that they want me to.

I'm not telling ANYONE to
act like me, and neither are
most other 'religion
bashers'. All I ask is to be
left alone to live my life
however I want to.

A 'religion basher' would be
someone who goes out
and tries to force religious
people to become atheists -
to see the 'error of their
ways' as it were.

I don't see atheists
standing on street corners
with bullhorns telling
passer-bys to "LOSE GOD!
LOSE GOD!"

So again, I ask: "Who are
the people who are
'constantly bashing'
religion?"

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
ADF makes great sigpics!

TooCute

01-06-2003, 04:24 PM

And the fact of the
matter is, is that the SHEER
NUMBERS of people
involved in those wars can't
even be compared to the
BILLIONS of decisions that
are made on a MINUTE TO
MINUTE basis throughout
the world NOT to kill,
commit adultery, steal, lie,
etc. DUE BASED SOLELY
ON ONE'S RELIGOUS
BELIEFS

This is largely irrelevant, as
you in no way can
substantiate this claim. You
can't possibly know if it was
indeed a person's religion
that prevented them from
killing, stealing, committing
adultery, etc.

Are you suggesting that
more atheists kill and
steal? Are you suggesting
that more religious people
do not?

Such decisions, I would
argue, with claims as
equally unsubstantiated as
yours, are based more
upon the social climate of a
person's upbringing than
their religion.

What of religions where
killing is not forbidden by a
commandment? Do
members of these religions
kill each other with no
afterthought?

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ADF makes great sigpics!

NewYorkDragons80

01-06-2003, 05:34 PM

Hordeking, I will paste my post regarding Einstein again, even though it had a source the first time. Here it is:

Perhaps you would like to read the quote of a fellow Jew who escaped Nazi Germany. In Time Magazine's December 23, 1940 issue on Page 38 Albert Einstein was quoted as saying the following:

Quote:
Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth: but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom: but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...

Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

From the quotes I have read from Einstein, he does not entirely deny the existence of God. From the "Dead Non-theists" link you have posted many-a-time on this board, he says he does not subscribe to a "Personal God". Probably an agnostic, but it would not surprise me if he were an atheist. Regardless, Einstein is referring to the secular assistance that German Jews receivedfrom the Church. The quote does not reflect his personla deity. In fact, he reinforces his rejection of the Church when he calls it an establishment he "Once despised."

If Pius were Hitler's Pope, he was very skilled in getting the support of Golda Meir and Albert Einstein, inarguably the most influential Jews of modern times.

<marquee>
"In war there is no substitute for victory." -General Douglas MacArthur "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 1-6-03 @ 9:41 PM

NewYorkDragons80

01-06-2003, 05:45 PM

Naturally, I am humiliated by pedophilia among priests and the German Christian violence which you speak of. In some cases, German bishops are to blame for violence against Jews. In other cases, German bishops, along with Pius XII, should be commended for forging passports to sneak Jews to South America and Palestine just to name a few regions.

Was your father an American soldier at this POW camp?

<marquee>
"In war there is no substitute for victory." -General Douglas MacArthur "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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TastelessGinny

01-06-2003, 10:46 PM

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

I'd like to derail this topic for just one moment, to ask which version this comes from. There's 13 versions at http://bible.gospelcom.net/ and I can't find that as Romans 12:1 in them; Romans 12:1 refers to living in an intelligent, honest manner, acceptable to God, as a 'living sacrifice.'

But I like your quote, and would like to attribute it properly.

Where'd you get it?

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Arienette

01-06-2003, 10:53 PM

Finally, let me say that I'm pretty impressed with the quality of this discussion. People have expressed their opinion without resorting to getting personali have to agree with hk on this one (as well as pretty much all of what he's posted in this thread, although that's irrelevent). i, too, have been very impressed by the quality of the posts in this thread. while many of the posts have infuriated me, it is refreshing to see an intelligent debate, sans all the poo and innuendo

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i sat watching a flower as it was withering
i was embarassed by its honesty

TastelessGinny

01-07-2003, 03:32 AM

sans all the poo

Never underestimate the power of poo.

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This message was edited by TastelessGinny on 1-7-03 @ 1:44 PM

Coco

01-07-2003, 11:43 AM

Everything I have felt about this subject has already been said. I stand firm on everything I have already said.

I have heard that love is blind, but I also believe hate is blind also.

I can say from personal experience that my faith has only brought me peace, happiness and security in my life that nothing in this world can even come close to.

______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive

This message was edited by Coco on 1-7-03 @ 3:47 PM

TheMojoPin

01-07-2003, 02:08 PM

I can say from personal experience that my faith has only brought me peace, happiness and security in my life that nothing in this world can even come close to.

Which is perfectly fine. The only problem is that too many OTHER people who feel like this seem to think that everyone else should as well.

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TooCute

01-07-2003, 02:15 PM

I have heard that love
is blind, but I also believe
hate is blind also.

Undoubtedly, but what does
this have to do with this
thread? I have seen no hate
in this thread; I don't want to
misead you, but are you
suggesting that atheists
'hate'? What do they hate?

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NewYorkDragons80

01-07-2003, 02:35 PM

It's from a book called "Meeting the Living God" by a Jesuit Priest named John Powell. He is a very liberal humanist. The book is about deciding whether or not you believe in a "mind behind it all" and surprisingly takes no real stance either way.

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"In war there is no substitute for victory." -General Douglas MacArthur "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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HordeKing1

01-07-2003, 04:01 PM

NYDRAGON - I'm curious if there are different versions of Romans, one read by Ginny, the other by John Powell.

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NewYorkDragons80

01-07-2003, 06:09 PM

It all depends on the understanding of the translation. The following from the Amplified Bible is probably the best because it is the most broad and understands the language from which it is translated without over-simplifying. I APPEAL to you therefore, brethren, and beg of you in view of [all] the mercies of God, to make a decisive dedication of your bodies [presenting all your members and faculties] as a living sacrifice, holy (devoted, consecrated) and well pleasing to God, which is your reasonable (rational, intelligent) service and spiritual worship.

EDIT: Now that I have the book in front of me, I realize that the author's name is actually Father William J. O'Malley, S.J. Don't ask where I got John Powell from.

<marquee>
"In war there is no substitute for victory." -General Douglas MacArthur "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 1-7-03 @ 10:15 PM