"Self Hating White Men" [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

Death Metal Moe

01-09-2003, 04:05 PM

I hear ya Heckler.

I'm PROUD to be a White guy. And YOU should all be proud to be whatever YOU are.

But you CANNOT change history. So far it has been written by white people mostly. And I have no problem seeing other races writing history. (NOT due to these bullshit Affirmative Action law that only WEAKEN minorities)

How about this Reperations bullshit?

That would be like arresting someone because they drank back during Prohibition. It was illigal THEN, so you're busted.

Some companies had connections to slave trades back when it was LEGAL, so people like 3-4 generations removed from it have to pay up to these scumbags?

Fuck that.

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TheMojoPin

01-09-2003, 08:16 PM

That would be like arresting someone because they drank back during Prohibition. It was illigal THEN, so you're busted.

Wait...wait...yes, this was just passed last night in Fairfax County! BASTARDS.

And why be proud to be white? I'm proud to be an American. My skin don't mean shit. And it looks awful. I burn if I'm in the sun for two minutes and these freckles serve to do nothing except mock me. Stupid white skin. I HATE IT. DOWN WITH WHITEY.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-10-03 @ 12:19 AM

furie

01-10-2003, 04:28 AM

Most likely it is because they have been raised to be so intolerant of others. And now when old ways of thinking are being debated or challenge they take it as a threat. In my opinion anger is one of the by-products of ignorance.

this makes no sense. if the old ways of thinking are being challenged and white men percieve this as a threat as you say, why would they be self hating?

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silera

01-10-2003, 05:26 AM

...and these freckles serve to do nothing except mock me.

I strongly disagree. Freckles hide pimples.

If only I could get some on my ass.

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I can't stand myself either.</center>

FUNKMAN

01-10-2003, 05:32 AM

How about this Reperations bullshit?

That would be like arresting someone because they drank back during Prohibition. It was illigal THEN, so you're busted.

njdmmoe,

there is no way you can compare "illegal drinking" with the "stripping of dignity and self esteem of generations of people"

Think to yourself about the following:

> Someone comes to your door and takes your young daughter to satisfy their sexual needs, whenever they want
> Your on the road and your children need to use the bathroom and aren't feeling well. But you have to take them out in the woods because there are "no negroes" allowed in that restaurant...
> You as well as your children are not allowed to be educated...

There will never be a way of truly making ammends other than the country continuing to provide opportunity for education and employment.

Sure, you have people that abuse the system, but that's with all races...

PEACE

EDIT ADD: I guarantee that thousands of minorities are sitting in jail for stealing less than a hundred dollars.
Do you know how many of the hundreds of Enron executives that stole millions, if not billions of dollars are sitting in jail - 0 -
Heard it on CNN yesterday.

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This message was edited by FUNKMAN on 1-10-03 @ 9:47 AM

JerryTaker

01-10-2003, 06:34 AM

My biggest problem with it is it's inconsistancy, everyonesays how bad white people are, but they're the only ones who actually feel guilty about what they've done in the past..

Are the Italians made to make reparations to make up for the Roman Empire and Julius Ceaser?

Are the Egyptians made to make Reparations for enslaving the Jews?

Are the British made to make Reparations for the Crusades?

People love to scrutinize white Americans because they can and they don't fight back, because they're instantly labeled with the racist stigma, meanwhile the scrutiny is based on their race, and people seem to forget that "white" is still a race and that scrutinizing people for being white is also racist. But for some reason, that's perfectly acceptable in our society...

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silera

01-10-2003, 07:07 AM

There will never be a way of truly making ammends other than the country continuing to provide opportunity for education and employment.

The United States governement provides that to all its citizens. Not all of them take advantage of it. Many are willing to settle for the bare minimum.

When it comes down to it, regardless of how you got to a situation, or who was at fault, in life, you have to step up and fix it yourself.

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Thebazile78

01-10-2003, 07:54 AM

That would be like arresting someone because they drank back during Prohibition. It was illigal THEN, so you're busted.

It wasn't a crime to drink alcohol, just to manufacture and transport it.

I believe that if the current trends of "Victimization" and "Groupthink" continue we will eventually have a "Balkanization" of America. Scary stuff.

Hello 1984!

An "Orwellization",perhaps?

"Dead Old White Men" literature has been under attack, and it seems that many young men (some on the board) have been victimized by this.

In an attempt to make amends for any form of prior ignorance we are introduced to mediocre, but diverse, art, literature and forms of speech? What makes it any more or less right? I don't know.

I don't have a problem studying innovators. . . George Washington Carver, for example. Without him, peanut butter would not be my favorite food to survive on.

Or the art & literature of the Harlem Renaissance... it's interesting to see what was done with and to "classical" or "dead white men's" literary forms by the artists, writers and intellectuals located in Harlem. . . and how they attempted to stretch their influence beyond the boundaries of the city.

I'm pleased that my horizons were expanded, but I don't feel guilty about being white. . . is it different for me, though, because I am female? And, I suppose, part of a traditionally oppressed group myself. . .I don't know.

Maybe I'm too idealistic to be guilty.

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Bill From Yorktown

01-10-2003, 08:03 AM

http://www.eatabullet.com/little jimmy how we miss ye....

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FMJeff

01-10-2003, 08:13 AM

Dear Hurt Races of the World,
Grow up and move on. It's 2003.

Love,
"Your Oppressors"

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Mr Self Destruct

01-10-2003, 08:13 AM

I thought this was going to be an anti-wigger thread. God, I hate them fake gangstas.

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The Blowhard

01-10-2003, 09:35 AM

TheMojoPin

01-10-2003, 11:05 AM

Thanks, Tiny Tim...for teaching us to love...and to laugh...again...

"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH-HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!"

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"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-10-03 @ 3:34 PM

TheMojoPin

01-10-2003, 11:11 AM

Dear Hurt Races of the World,
Grow up and move on. It's 2003.

"And it is with great pride that I say to you, my people, 'SUCK IT UP, DEEKS.' Thank you, and good night. If you're drinking, don't drive...and if you're driving, don't drink!"

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

furie

01-10-2003, 01:06 PM

is that doogie singing country?

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Lighting up the New Year

The Blowhard

01-10-2003, 01:15 PM

Thanks, Tiny Tim...for teaching us to love...and to laugh...again...

GOD BLESS US EVERYONE!, well, everyone except you Mojo. Jesus hates you, you, you PINKO!

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TheMojoPin

01-10-2003, 02:25 PM

GOD BLESS US EVERYONE!, well, everyone except you Mojo. Jesus hates you, you, you PINKO!

I've got the power! I fear not the darkness! Blessed be ME.

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"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

Yerdaddy

01-10-2003, 04:42 PM

No other race needed the US Army just to go to classes.
-Black Earl

Slavery was replaced by Jim Crow segregation laws, which assured that blacks in the south would continue to be legally separated from white society and 'kept in ther place' at the bottom of society until the 1960's. Violence against blacks, from lynching to beatings and murder of civil rights activists, was sanctioned by the US government through the 1960's. Finally equal protection under the law was imposed by the federal government, but as for making up for the deliberate marginalization of entire races of people, only affirmative action has been offered by the government. Affirmative action was limited in 1972 by the Bakke decision, which said that you could not use racial quotas, but could only require a representative pool of candidates in hiring and education. In 1968, 15% of whites and 30% of blacks lived below the poverty line. in 1998, 15% of whites and 30% of blacks lived below the poverty line.

When I consider my race and other races, I think that I have never looked in the mirror and thought "what would my life have been like if I weren't white?" Black people, I am told and it doesn't surprise me, ask themselves "where would my family be if we weren't black?" I do often think "where would I be if I didn't grow up in a house with two alcoholic parents?" I know that had an effect on my development and my ability to take advantage of opportunities as a child. I also wonder what would I be like if my mother had not been the daughter of two alcoholic parents. The point is, if families matter to individuals, (which is a central tenant of the 'family values' movement of the last 10 or 20 years), how can it be that blacks in America are expected to overcome the lasting effects of centuries of abuse and poverty imposed on their families, simply by pulling themselves up by the bootstraps? Why is it 'family values' that is the strength of one class, and 'rugged individualism' is expected of another just to achieve equal status in society? Would the black middle-class that has always existed in America be the black upper class today? Would Colin Powell be president? Would middle managers be top executives? Would hospital attendants be doctors? I don't think you can honestly look at issues of race without asking those questions. Not to consider those questions is to discount both history and family in the lives of individuals.

And why would you consider someone who takes these questions into consideration someone who "hates themselves"? How do "Multiculturism, Bi-Lingual Education and Affirmitve Action" have anything to do with guilt or self-hatred? I don't think that I should feel guilty and I don't think that any white person should. I'm just not going to cry affirmative action every time I get passed over for a job, (or even when I've never been passed over for a job). Reparations are a bad idea but I'm glad that they do point out a historical fact - that much of this country's prosperity came on the backs of slaves. Multiculturism is a fact and a strength in America, and I think the point of support for multiculturalism is simply to get people to accept this fact, not to impose a "Balkanization" on America. It's not even a possible outcome. Bi-lingual education is a matter of helping groups of learn math and science while they learn English, and not be expected to learn them all at the same time. As a whole, immigrants contribute more in taxes than they recieve in services, so helping them to be successful is a benefit for our society. Because quotas are illegal, affirmative action can only be looked at as a safety net against discrimination, which still exists, ensuriing that government-related institutions are not using discriminatory hiring and admissions practices. 'Groupthink' and 'Balkanization' are terms stemming from conservative propaganda, and are not my concearn. If these people want to capitalize on any aspect of American society to sell books or TV and radio ad space, I guess that's to be expecte

irishkb

01-10-2003, 04:45 PM

In my opinion anger is one of the by-products of ignorance.

no it is a by-product of being pissed off.

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The Blowhard

01-10-2003, 06:53 PM

How do

EDIT: This post contained an opening quote symbol, but not the closing quote which screwed up the layout of the page. No change to content.

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THAT'S Amore!

This message was edited by HordeKing1 on 1-11-03 @ 12:56 AM

Yerdaddy

01-10-2003, 07:04 PM

This thread was just sabotaged by The Man.

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It was a joke goddammit!

Se7en

01-10-2003, 07:10 PM

EDIT ADD: I guarantee that thousands of minorities are sitting in jail for stealing less than a hundred dollars.
Do you know how many of the hundreds of Enron executives that stole millions, if not billions of dollars are sitting in jail - 0 -
Heard it on CNN yesterday.

I see what you're trying to say with this, but I think you're talking about more of a economic class difference than racism.

People love to scrutinize white Americans because they can and they don't fight back, because they're instantly labeled with the racist stigma, meanwhile the scrutiny is based on their race, and people seem to forget that "white" is still a race and that scrutinizing people for being white is also racist. But for some reason, that's perfectly acceptable in our society...

RIGHT.

"You can't cry over spilled milk" is the oldest cliche in the book, but it's true in my book. What's done is done. Never forget the past, but don't obsess over it, i.e. reperations. About half of my ancestors, most of the ancestry on my mother's side of the family, were Native Americans. You don't see me bitching about how I want whitey to fork over some cash for all of that genocide business they pulled.

"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character".- Martin Luther King

The great tragedy of our times - he's the one who died, and Farrakhan survived. My god, it makes me weep to think about what more that man could have accomplished for this country had he lived. It'd be a better place to live in.

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HordeKing1

01-10-2003, 09:20 PM

I see it thusly:

It's just as wrong for people of perceived "privilege" to feel guitly about their privilege as it is for the perceived "underprivileged" to feel guilty about being less fortunate.

Being white doesn't make someone a good person. It doesn't make them a bad person. Being black doesn't make someone a good or bad person either.

There are far more problems associated with socioeconomic status than with race. Poor whites and blacks are much more similar (in terms of crime, lack of education and health, unemployment or undemployment) than rich and poor whites compared to one another OR rich and poor blacks compared to each other.

America is (or was) a melting pot, where different cultures were assimilated into the general American culture. They became Americans, and desired to do so and fulfill the American dream. Now each group resists becoming American. (Of course it's fine to practice whatever cultural traditions one has, but not at the expense of exluding the American culture.) Biculturalism or multiculturalism can be very positive, provided that it encompases the American culture as well. For this reason, Bilingual education is a perfect example of how screwed up we've become. This is Amercia. English is our native language. If you don't want to learn it - you're not going to get very far in life. It's a person's perogative to refuse to learn. It's also a person's perogative to spend their life as a dishwasher. Learning English is an absolutely essential step toward any meaningful achievement in our culture. And with good reason. With America being comprised of so many different cultures and langauges, a common language is essential. Bilingual education hurts the people it purports to help.

I feel the same about affirmative action. Not only does it lower the standards based on race (a ridiculous notion) but it also creates the climate where people come to believe that the only way, blacks (and women) have a chance is if we accept a lesser standard for them. Again we're hurting the ones we purport to help.

The only standard that should be used is "Does this person qualify for the job." Who cares if they're white, black or Martian? And being a capatilist country, people will hire a smart worker or a good worker who will make them money over another worker who will not perform as well.

Finally, I believe we're way too obsessed with political correctness. While it's important to respect other people's ideas, it's not right to change the character of the country to accomodate everyone to the extent that people are afraid to say something, lest they offend some group.

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Yerdaddy

01-10-2003, 10:16 PM

Now each group resists becoming American.
Are people moving to America now and denying that they are Americans? Every immigrant I've known would consider themselves Americans first, (and proudly at that). Is it that they don't speak perfect English? Is it that they cook with a wok instead of pots and pans? What is it that makes a statement like this so common in America? People have always immigrated to America and lived in communities dominated by their original culture. It used to be native-borns were glad it was that way. Now we bitch about it. But where's the substance to a statement like they "resist becoming American"? What are the standards that they need to meet to satisfy the whiners?

And HK's arguments about affirmative actions are based on a fictional version of affirmative action. Affirmative action can only require a representative pool of candidates before making a choice BASED ON QUALIFICATIONS. It's of secondary importance, but is of importance because race matters without any such programs. We were a capitalist economy long before the end of segregation and guess what - discrimintation was rampant. It still exists today and would be worse without affirmative action. Capitalism does not create benevolence. I agree that tackling economic inequalities should be based on income, but proportionally, poverty is much higher among historically discriminated against segments of our society and those higher rates are directly related to historic and current discrimination.

Bilingual education - you do realize that the point of bilingual education is to teach kids English without having them fall behind in other subjects? Nobody is trying to keep kids from learning or speaking English. This one is getting as absurd as the ebonics debacle. Nobody tried to teach students ebonics. It was to help teachers teach students 'proper' English. But, as usual, conservative reactionaries jumped on the issue, twisted the facts, and cashed in on a public that thrived on being angry about other people.

Finally, regardless of its origins, political correctness is a conservative term. It is only used when someone wants to argue generalities, while deflecting honest discussion of issues. I'd like to coin a phrase and have it catch on: 'whining about things I don't understand, and don't really want to, because it makes me feel richeous'.

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Doogie

01-10-2003, 10:21 PM

is that doogie singing country?

Ixnay on the country thing...I dont want people to think I am some sort of hick...Besides you ever see some of the girls that show up at these concerts?? I am pulling off the greatest "Milli Vanili" ever and the white kids love it!!!!!

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FiveB247

01-10-2003, 10:29 PM

Horde King..I agree with you on many points...but I don't think you'll win over the African American or Latino voters. haha

By the way, when people talk of white males in this nation, it is not city dwellers or people we see in the tr-state area. They mis-correctly imply everyone is like us when in fact most white males in America are country bumpkins who bang their sisters and culminate their education with HS. So let's not assume by any means that America is cultured, smart or such. It's simply a mis-appropriation.

Yerdaddy

01-10-2003, 10:31 PM

The great tragedy of our times - he's the one who died, and Farrakhan survived. My god, it makes me weep to think about what more that man could have accomplished for this country had he lived. It'd be a better place to live in.
I knew there had to be something we agreed on. Farrakhan is a scumbag.

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It was a joke goddammit!

This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 1-11-03 @ 2:34 AM

HordeKing1

01-10-2003, 10:35 PM

Every immigrant I've known would consider themselves Americans first

And yet the terms, African American, Irish American, etc, persist. Which term is placed first?

And HK's arguments about affirmative actions are based on a fictional version of affirmative action. Affirmative action can only require a representative pool of candidates before making a choice BASED ON QUALIFICATIONS.

You're inaccurate about this. State and Federal law requires corporations above a certain size to meet minimum percentage minority staffing. Other institutions actually brag about this. Perhaps you read the story in the newspapers about 2 weeks ago about a white woman with phenomenal accademic credentials, suing a law school b/c candidates less qualified than her, were chosen, b/c they were black. The law school was stupid enough to admit that they accept EVERY black applicant to the school regardless of qualification. They actually boasted about it. (It was stupid to say, b/c it assured her victory in court).

Bilingual education - you do realize that the point of bilingual education is to teach kids English without having them fall behind in other subjects? Nobody is trying to keep kids from learning or speaking English.

I'm sorry but that's inaccurate as well. The ebonics and bilingual debate was b/c the schools wanted to teach the kids exclusively in those languages as they felt they would do better learning in that environment, than by forcing them to lean english.
"Bilingual" as it is used here, is a misnomer. It was monolingual - and the language was not English. You're referring to the ESL (English as a Second Language) program, which is really very good as it teaches the kids in their native language while simulatneously teaching them English. Every year the kids in the ESL programs are taught (and must rely) more and more on English.

Finally, regardless of its origins, political correctness is a conservative term.

You don't seem to care about the origin either, so why label it a conservative term? It's the same as calling embracing multiculturalism a liberal ideal. Both are terms in common usage that everyone, except those of course who don't speak English are very familiar with.

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fluffernutter

01-10-2003, 11:02 PM

"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character".- Martin Luther King

Words to live by. We are ALL Americans.

I wish I could have been alive when MLK was speaking. Truly a great man. Not only are we all Americans but we are all HUMAN. We all bleed red. Unfortunately in today's society we see color. I don't know if that just has to do with upbringing or our own ignorance at times. Sometime I wish we all could be either skinless or blind so then we would not fall victim to prejudice.

This message was edited by fluffernutter on 1-11-03 @ 3:03 AM

Yerdaddy

01-10-2003, 11:29 PM

And yet the terms, African American, Irish American, etc, persist. Which term is placed first?
That's your evidence for immigrants not wanting to be Americans? That's pretty thin, don't you think, basing a glib generalization on top-billing in a sociological term that immigrants didn't even invent?

You're inaccurate about this. State and Federal law requires corporations above a certain size to meet minimum percentage minority staffing. Other institutions actually brag about this. Perhaps you read the story in the newspapers about 2 weeks ago about a white woman with phenomenal accademic credentials, suing a law school b/c candidates less qualified than her, were chosen, b/c they were black. The law school was stupid enough to admit that they accept EVERY black applicant to the school regardless of qualification. They actually boasted about it. (It was stupid to say, b/c it assured her victory in court).
As I understand it, the government doesn't require private corporations to do anything in regards to affirmative action. And as for the anecdote, I have doubts about whether that's the whole story or just the plaintiff's claim. Also, was it a private or publicly funded school? If it was private, that's the school's decision that's not based of government quotas. You might want to post some of the details so I can see for myself what the situation is.

the schools wanted to teach the kids exclusively in those languages as they felt they would do better learning in that environment, than by forcing them to lean english.
Wanted to teach them math and science in those languages - so they can understand the lessons - while they learn English separately. The point is that they don't fall behind in other subjects while they learn English - not to not teach them English. Why would anyone come up with a program to avoid teaching these kids English? That's how you make it sound - like a concerted effort to not teach English, which is absurd.

Multiculturalism is a fact - that our culture is actually made up of many cultures. Political correctness is, (has become), a term to bitch about multiculturalism, bilingual education, etc. It assumes that people are being forced to accept things that they don't agree with. It can usually be replaced with "thing/s I'm bitching about" in a sentence. Try it.

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It was a joke goddammit!

TheMojoPin

01-11-2003, 12:20 PM

While reparations are pretty ridiculous, I think too many people automatically mix that with people who are fighting against the still very real racism in this country that flies in ALL directions, black, white, red, WHATEVER. It's like if someone brings up the race issue, it's immediately diverted to topics like slavery reparations or affirmative-action instead of focusing on the crux of the matter.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-11-03 @ 4:32 PM

JerseyTim

01-11-2003, 02:08 PM

I agree we need to bring down the artificial barriers between the races. However, the past and history do matter. We need to stop making excuses for our history and stop pretending that Christopher Columbus was a good person or that Thomas Jefferson was just doing what everyone else was doing. Let's come clean about our history and then we can move forward. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684818868/qid=1042326510/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-2106973-3264632?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 

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tim
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Knowledged_one

01-11-2003, 02:22 PM

The problem with history is that people will always put their own spin on the events to make them look good. Do you think the japanese celebrate the nuclear bombing we gave them or do you think they are prouder of bombing Pearl Harbor? There is no real history because if that were the case it would be taught in schools that most slaves came from tribes that were defeated by stronger tribes and were taken prisoner. The winning tribe would then sell its prisoners to men of arabian descent to be then sold again to Europeans.
And again i will bring up this argument when talking about reperations---America used to specify that Irish need not apply for jobs in Depression-era America yet the Irish overcame to be succesful. Reperations are a way to make those to lazy feel as if they are owed and it is a bunch of crap
And as far as affirmative action being good that is ridiculous. NFL teams are now required to interview black coaches before they can hire anyone. So now men who pay over $500 million for a franchise may now have to trot out a black man before they can hire the coach they want ala Dennis Green getting interviewed by the cowboys before they could hire Bill Parcells. Not to mention would it be acceptable as a white man for me to start a scholarship fund that was for whites only, of course not but routinely blacks and other minorities are give scholarships for being a minority not academic acheivements i know this because i witnessed it my senior year of high school

Basically it comes down to what was said in American History X where it was stated its not cool to be white anymore. You are taught that because of who you are its not right because you are white and by nature you must be oppressing others

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The Blowhard

01-11-2003, 03:57 PM

Every immigrant I've known would consider themselves Americans first, (and proudly at that). 
Where do you live, in Fantasyland? Come to any of NYC's 5 Boroughs and get a wake up call! Brooklyn is a great example: Russians have taken over Brighton Beach.every store has Russian signs and they could give a fuck about becoming a citizen. They only care about one thing, MONEY. Same thing in Bay Ridge with the Arabs, Sunset Park with the Chinese and on and on and on. The new immigrant comes here for money and money alone. Many will not assimilate to American culture. That's reality. There are exceptions of course, but I speak from experience, and it is sad. 

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A.J.

01-11-2003, 04:27 PM

Where do you live, in Fantasyland? Come to any of NYC's 5 Boroughs and get a wake up call! Brooklyn is a great example: Russians have taken over Brighton Beach.every store has Russian signs and they could give a fuck about becoming a citizen. They only care about one thing, MONEY. Same thing in Bay Ridge with the Arabs, Sunset Park with the Chinese and on and on and on. The new immigrant comes here for money and money alone. Many will not assimilate to American culture. That's reality. There are exceptions of course, but I speak from experience, and it is sad.

I think this is the result of so much immigration having taken place in the last century. The earliest immigrants made it easier for those who followed them to come here and not have to worry about fully assimilating.

For example, my grandparents' parents came over from Italy around 1900. While they spoke little to no English, they did their best to assimilate as new Americans. They never even went back to visit Italy and made sure their children spoke English only. In fact, I'm the only one in my family who can speak Italian -- my grandparents and their siblings can only understand a few words and phrases.

Other friends of mine whose parents came over from Italy in the 50s and 60s speak both English and Italian fluently. Perhaps, by this time, Italians had become more "accepted" in society and so these new immigrants didn't have to worry about fully assimilating as much.

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This message was edited by AJinDC on 1-11-03 @ 10:01 PM

Yerdaddy

01-11-2003, 05:51 PM

Where do you live, in Fantasyland?
I can't speak for New York as I've only been there twice, and was lost for most of the first trip. I've lived in Arizona, the SF Bay Area, Chicago and now DC. New York most reminded me of Chicago, which is still as segregated as it was 50 years ago. When I first got there my emplyees gave me the rundown of which neighborhoods I should be careful in, and which I shouldn't go into at all. I was told by a cop that I should get out of one nieghborhood for my own safety. There were Greek, Italian, black, Latino...neighborhoods that were clearly defined neighborhoods that I was told not to go in. Greek? Yup. Greek? Yup. Alright then.

But the segregation that I saw in Chicago was the exception to what I've seen in the rest of the country. In the Bay Area, there are some loosely defined neighborhoods, but they overlap and most neighborhoods have every race under the sun. Every school classroom looks like a Jackson Pollock, and even the gangs I've seen are muti-racial. DC is close to the same mix of neighborhoods, which was surprising to me. I think the difference is the politics, Politics in Chicago was a joke. Every level of politics seemed like an extention of the Daley Machine. Corruption scandals were a weekly occurance. The city council was taking bribes to keep low-income housing out of white districts. The mob owned half the police and judges. 13 people were let off of death row in 12 years because the cops were torturing confessions out of suspects, and the courts were doing various things to railroad defendants. The place was a mess and I think its the sort of thing that keeps races groups together in neighborhoods, looking out for each other and showing contempt for other races. The Bay Area had little tolerance for the kind of overt racism in Chicago and you couldn't tell a second generation immigrant from a tenth generation. In my neighborhood in DC, the community is primarily Ethernopian, Eritrean and North African. I talk to these guys every day and every one of them is glad and proud to be here, and all of them speak fine english, even when they've only been here a few years.

So in Candyland, (not Fantasyland), where I'm from, immigrants come to America to be Americans. I think New York and Chicago, and probably a handful of other old, big cities are the exeptions to rule. I'm thinking that New Yorkers just aren't aware that, while New York is truly a great city, it is not a microcosm of the United States.

Basically it comes down to what was said in American History X where it was stated its not cool to be white anymore. You are taught that because of who you are its not right because you are white and by nature you must be oppressing others
Knowledged_one - I'm not sure you got the main point of that movie. Did you watch the whole thing?

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It was a joke goddammit!

This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 1-11-03 @ 10:00 PM

Yerdaddy

01-11-2003, 05:55 PM

AJinDC - why have I always thought you were Asian? You sure you're Italian?

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It was a joke goddammit!

A.J.

01-11-2003, 06:03 PM

AJinDC - why have I always thought you were Asian? You sure you're Italian?

I don't know. I'm an American of Italian and Irish descent.

Let me guess Yerdaddy: do you live in Adams Morgan? I think that neighborhood is home to every nationality imaginable. It defines the term "melting pot".

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A Skidmark production.

Yerdaddy

01-11-2003, 06:07 PM

No, I'm near U Street Cardozo, on 9th and T. It's mainly first generation African immigrants and honkeys. Not a melting pot, but an odd mix.

If it's alright with you, I'm going to keep thinking you're Asian until I know otherwise. This duck still 'liiiiiiive!!

<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigyalta.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!

Thebazile78

01-11-2003, 06:41 PM

And as for the anecdote, I have doubts about whether that's the whole story or just the plaintiff's claim. Also, was it a private or publicly funded school? If it was private, that's the school's decision that's not based of government quotas. You might want to post some of the details so I can see for myself what the situation is.

How could you not know about this case?

It's at the Law School of the UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN. A state-funded/run school. It was discussed months ago in the "Supreme Court Dispatch" in Slate magazine (http://slate.msn.com) but I'm not sure if the link would still work now, as it has been a few months since it appeared.

EDIT: I would give you the Lexis.com link, but I don't think you'd be able to view it without a Lexis ID. But, you may want to go to the summary of the case as searched from the Supreme Court's web site (http://www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/02-241.htm).

** Case name is BARBARA GRUTTER v. LEE BOLLINGER, ET AL; original docket number is 01-1447/1516

I know this citation is not Bluebook compliant, but I don't have my copy of the Interactive Citation Workbook at home. I left it at work.

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This message was edited by Thebazile78 on 1-11-03 @ 10:52 PM

Yerdaddy

01-12-2003, 03:18 PM

As I suspected, HK's description of the Grutter vs. Bollinger, et al., case is an exaggeration. I just read the <a href="http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/6th/02a0170p.html" target="_blank">6th Circuit Court opinions</a>, majority and dissenting, and I can't find a single mention of support for HK's statement that "they accept EVERY black applicant to the school regardless of qualification. They actually boasted about it." I'm not a lawyer, but I would assume that had they bragged about it, those statements would have been admitted as evidence and quoted in the dissenting opinion, (the 6th Circuit Court overturned the original Federal District Court decision on behalf of the plaintiff). Furthermore, the court's opinion describes, at length, the actual admissions procedures of the University of Michigan Law School . It works on a point system that gives greatest weight to academic and test scores, and secondary weight to "leadership, work experience, unique talents or interests and the enthusiasm of an applicant's letters of recommendation." According to <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/12/02/scotus.affirmative.action/" target="_blank"> a CNN article </a>the point system used had a high of 150 points and minority status added 20 points. That seems like too much weight to race, but it is a far cry from accepting every black that applies as HK claims. The brief also points out that only 14.5% of the year 2000 admissions were minorities and without factoring race in admissions the rate would be 4%. (The CNN article states that the point system is no longer used at the school.) In his concurring opinion, Clay says that according to a study conducted at NYU, if admissions were based on academic merit, (undergraduate GPA and LSAT test scores), 14.9% of white applicants accepted to law schools would not have been accepted. "For these white applicants, something more than merit was considered in the admissions process, just as something more is considered in a program designed to promote diversity." The court opinion shows that, although HK makes the case sound like this "white woman with phenomenal academic credentials" was passed over by every black person who applied, on the point system used she may have been passed up for someone with relatively similar academic credentials, but with stronger peripheral qualities, one of which might have been race or ethnicity. The rationale for race being a factor in college admissions is the opinion given by Justice Lewis Powell in the 1978 Supreme Court decision Bakke vs. University of California - "The goal of achieving a diverse student body is sufficiently compelling to justify consideration of race ... under some circumstances." (Universities have demonstrated, [and some Supreme Court justices have conferred], that diversity in the classrooms is a value to the quality of the education of all the students, and the school in general, and thus some consideration based on race and life experiences are allowable in school admissions.) However, combined with the primary Bakke decision that quotas are unconstitutional, the Powell statement has proved ambiguous, and may well be clarified if/when this case is decided by the current Supreme Court. My guess is that any consideration of race will be outlawed, but that dissenting opinions will carry the issue into the future.

This case shows that both HK and I were wrong on affirmative action. While quotas are not used, and a pool of candidates is not the only allowable requirement for affirmative action programs, this case is an example of consideration of race as a secondary qualification, based on the benefits of racial diversity to education and to the state of Michigan as a whole, and as a tool for rectifying, persistent historical and current discrimination. It is not a situation of setting quotas, and it not a case of accepting every black applicant.

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It was a joke goddammit!

HordeKing1

01-12-2003, 03:44 PM

If you read the papers, you'd see that the law school bragged about it when giving the interview. Every single black applicant (10 that year) got in over far more qualified white applicants.

That's bullshit.

The position should always go to the most qualified, regardless of race, religion or creed.

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Death Metal Moe

01-12-2003, 04:12 PM

njdmmoe,

there is no way you can compare "illegal drinking" with the "stripping of dignity and self esteem of generations of people"

Think to yourself about the following:

> Someone comes to your door and takes your young daughter to satisfy their sexual needs, whenever they want
> Your on the road and your children need to use the bathroom and aren't feeling well. But you have to take them out in the woods because there are "no negroes" allowed in that restaurant...
> You as well as your children are not allowed to be educated...

There will never be a way of truly making ammends other than the country continuing to provide opportunity for education and employment.

Oh yea? And you're ugly.

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