Africa Is Dying!

[The Blowhard]

There are millions of cases of HIV in Africa and you rarely see, read or hear about it. Conspiracy?

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THAT'S Amore!

[A.J.]

Conspiracy?


No. An inadequate public health infrastructure perhaps.

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A Skidmark production.

[reeshy]

Not newsy enough!!!!

doesn't sell soap or cars

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[NewYorkDragons80]

Something needs to be done with Africa. We need to give doctors an incentive (Tax relief?) to go to Africa for 2 years or 5 years or whatever to turn this thing around. One of the biggest problems in Africa was that certain governments would take aid and keep it for themselves or use it as a ransom. Today, westerners and specifically Americans hear of these stories and just want to give up. This is foolish.

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[furie]

there's no money to be made, and it's not strategic.

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Lighting up the New Year

[Coco]

It's a travesty. Probably wouldn't happen if it was in England. I had started another thread on this earlier.

http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=52&Topic=14998

______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive

This message was edited by Coco on 1-14-03 @ 6:12 PM

[ChrisTheCop]

Maybe the orange band of failure can do a fundraising song. "Do they know it's GroundHog Day at all?"

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[NewYorkDragons80]

As long as we're playing the money game, there is plenty of copper, diamonds, oil, etc. to be found in Africa.

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[(AP)]

Why should I give a crap about these people. In most cases AIDS is 100% preventable, there are exceptions of course. No one feels sorry for a smoker that gets lung cancer or a fat slob has a heart attack. Why should AIDS be veiwed differently? Let them all die.

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

I watched a documentary on TV about the instances of HIV among African people depending on whether the males were or weren't circumsized. It seems HIV is quite high in areas where tribes didn't practice circumcision.

I also found this article: http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/rgcircumc.htm

"Most of the ideas we investigated failed to explain the extraordinarily high rate of infection in the AIDS belt. One factor did stand out, however: lack of male circumcision. In the area where men are typically uncircumcised, HIV rates are among the highest in the AIDS belt"


Apparently, a lot of men in high-risk areas are showing up at hospitals and requesting circumcisions. On the documentary I saw, a lot of men (and boys) from tribes that do not circumcise will travel to areas where they do practice circumcision so they can have the procedure done.

However, HIV researchers know in advance that these measures are not good enough: "Although the epidemic in sub-Saharan Africa may subside somewhat, because of greater use of condoms and probably increased incidence of circumcision, Africans in the AIDS belt remain at extremely high risk of HIV infection"




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This message was edited by Alice S. Fuzzybutt on 1-14-03 @ 7:19 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Lack of education, medical or otherwise...and outdated, unsafe medical practices. Drugs contribute, sex is a huge part of it, but so many Africans are getting AIDS because of unsafe and underfunded medical facilities.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[NewYorkDragons80]

Guess what? Africa isn't most cases. AIDS is not preventable if you are led to believe that having such with a virgin will cure/prevent AIDS or other such myths. I can't believe someone would blame Africans for something they never knew.

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[whale_JUNK]

there is no money to be made. poor people can't pay for a vaccine. the sooner the land is cleared the sooner we can pave it.

SPOON!

[(AP)]

I can't believe someone would blame Africans for something they never knew.


Who else is there to blame? AIDS has been around for about twenty years, they should have some idea by now how it spreads.

[TheMojoPin]

Who else is there to blame? AIDS has been around for about twenty years, they should have some idea by now how it spreads.

Say you live in an incredibly isolated area with little or no modern forms of long distance communication. No phones, no TV, or if you do have them, they are incredibly limited. Now say ONE person from your community makes the trek to the nearest city hundreds or thousands of miles away, or one of the city-dwellers comes to the village. Either way, this ONE person can end up carrying AIDS, and this ONE person can infect most, if not all of the village without them even knowing what they have. This isn't "stupidity", it's simply natural ignorance based on the environment around you, and how you DARE you casually damn people away because they do not have the means to even know what the virus is. Yeah, that's REAL big, pal...aren't you a little Ms. Tough Guy?

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[NewYorkDragons80]

AIDS has been around for about twenty years, they should have some idea by now how it spreads.
That's what the whole "African AIDS" thing is about. It is about trying to put the right ideas in their head about AIDS because it is obvious that too many of them have either the wrong idea or no idea at all.

How can you even conceive to totally sell out people who you don't even understand?

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[HordeKing1]

Heckler wrote:

There are millions of cases of HIV in Africa and you rarely see, read or hear about it. Conspiracy?

I have to disagree with this statement. I think many are very well acquainted with this crisis. It's been reported in many forums, including magazines, newspapers, specials reports, etc.

This is a crisis of unbelievable proportion. Estimates place the HIV infected on the continent as high as 1/3! 1 in 3!

How did it get this bad. The primary reason is inadequate information. The rulers of some African countries actually told their people that there is no AIDS. Some deliberately told the populace that AIDS wasn't linked to sex. One infected man or woman can (and did) infect many others.

Drugs to control HIV and AIDS are effective now, but they are VERY expensive. HIV used to be a death sentence w/o regard to social class. It no longer is if properly medicated. The medication coctail must be taken daily on a very strict timetable and if the medication is stoped the disease progresses. Those who have health insurance can obtain the ridiculously expensive medication. Those without insurance (or wealth) die.

Much of Africa is dirt poor. There are phenomenally valuable resources there, but many leaders are corrupt and take all the riches for themselves while their countrymen and women die of starvation. (Africa is a world leader in starvation deaths, not something to put in the tourist brochures.)
The leaders live in palaces.

A combination of ignorance, poverty, greed and desire for personal gain at the expense of others caused this disaster.

I'd love to hear people's ideas as to how they think this will end and what can be done to insure the greatest number of healthy survivors. It's easy to say that drug companies should provide the drugs for free, but they are not obligated to do so. I can't see change occuring until the corrupt leaders are desposed. Historically, with every coup and revolution comes a new boss, same as the old boss.

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[The Blowhard]

I have to disagree with this statement. I think many are very well acquainted with this crisis.


Hilly, I think the average person is clueless about the horrible situation in Africa.
Most people get their news from the networks, where it may get a 30 second mention. On the other hand, it's the top story on The BBC World News many nights. I'm not knocking the "average person" for being ignorant, it's just that many people are not paying attention. And by the way, I consider myself "above average", that's about right.

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THAT'S Amore!

[FUNKMAN]

I'd love to hear people's ideas as to how they think this will end and what can be done to insure the greatest number of healthy survivors.


it could only end if Sean Penn pays them a visit :)

It seems impossible for this situation to end. Improve, maybe?
My initial thinking is flood the country with Condoms and some literature on how they may prevent the transmission.
Is all of this Aids transmission through sex, i'm curious if the blood supplies are being tested? That would be the next step, to test the blood supplies and ensure it is not infected.
Then you need to form a Legal System that can enforce laws to help prevent rape,incest, and child molestation. This will also punish those who knowingly pass this disease onto others.

that's it for now...

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[Heather 8]

In most cases AIDS is 100% preventable, there are exceptions of course. <P>
So, it's completely preventable, but there are exceptions... completely preventable, but exceptions... <P>
Ow, I feel a Scanners moment oncoming... <P>

http://home.earthlink.net/~hdm1976/_uimages/beulahrf.jpg<P>
Putting the funny in ''unfunny''

[The Jays]

... keep working toward a cure and contribute to AIDS research....

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[Lucento]

They walk around naked!!
When they come into the modern era, they will wake up and organize and throw out the trashy governments they have and turn the dark continent into a paradise. As long as they are kept ignorant, they will stay in the dark ages. Enlighten them, dont bitch about how it sucks we dont see it everyday. The tree of liberty is nourished by the blood of the patriots.

<IMG SRC="http://www.osirusonline.com/lucento.jpg">

[furie]

As long as we're playing the money game, there is plenty of copper, diamonds, oil, etc. to be found in Africa.


i know there's weath in Africa in terms of resources. but the topic at hand is helping africa with the HIV epidemic, not strip mining. There's no money to be made in help Africa because most countries can't afford to buy the expensive drugs we offer.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

My bad furie. I thought you were playing the cynical "There's no oil, so we don't bother" game.

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[Lucento]

AIDS and HIV is bullshit. Its the same with West Nile Virus. Drug companys invent a panic so they can become rich. All cases of AIDS are attributed to HTZ overdosing by doctors. They concentrate on HIV being an epidemic in places like Africa because they know they have no money and they are only looking for ways to suck the US economy dry. They know we are compassionate and thats just what the rug companys are hoping for, and unlimmited flow of cash from a compassionate government. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
........one more thing...
It is the intrinsic nature of latex to have very small holes in it. These holes are 5 microns across. The sperm cell is 11 microns across and cannot fit through the hole. Its why the condom is an effective barrier for sperm. The HIV virus is reported to be 0.5 microns, which is HALF a micron. So, 10 HIV sized particles can do a cha-cha side by side through the hole in the condom....
Its kinda like saying a chain link fence is an effective barrier to bullets.

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[JerryTaker]

This is a tragety, yes, but maybe one that's supposed to happen, and we look at this from a "bleeding heart" way instead of a logical way...

There is a lot of evidence that says that HIV comes from a simian Immune deficiency virus, found in West African chimpanzees, but probably transfered to humans through a yet-unidentified simian species.

I know this will be unpopular, but in the "dark ages" whole cities, tribes, civilizations, etc. were wiped out by diseases. I profess I don't know much about modern African tribes, but if they're not at the point of civilization where they can perform circumsisions, or other hygenicaly-beneficial procedures, they're still kind of in the dark ages, no?

Now, take it a step further, if they're, let's just say, performing rituals with monkey's blood, or even not eating them cooked enough, there's a good chance they're getting the HIV virus in this manner, without sex even being involved...

Worst thing is, we're becoming so concerned about helping them, but it's because of our dealings with the area that we have AIDS in this country, and the rest of the world, and who knows what other diseases we haven't unearthed yet in the Jungles of Africa, or Brazil for that matter...

I know this is based on a few theories on top of theories, but nobody really knows for sure where HIV <I>originally</I> came from, but we need to keep our AIDS research focused on finding a cure, as opposed to throwing money at some dying tribes. Sometimes I hate when we think "Everyone in the world has to live as long as possible and we need to spend as much as we can to keep them all alive one more day... blech...

anyway, that's my $.02, and why I wasn't the least bit surprized to hear of an Epidemic in Africa, in fact, I had already assumed it.

Nobody will agree with me, but whatever..

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This message was edited by JerryTaker on 1-16-03 @ 2:18 PM

[Reephdweller]

They know we are compassionate and thats just what the rug companys are hoping for, and unlimmited flow of cash from a compassionate government.

So wait...the rug companies are involved in this now too?????

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[NewYorkDragons80]

I know this will be unpopular, but in the "dark ages" whole cities, tribes, civilizations, etc. were wiped out by diseases.
In the dark ages, was there an advanced society that knew the cause of these diseases and how to combat them?

If Europeans knew that rats were the cause of the plague, they would have taken the proper cautions. Instead, they relied on superstition like a "Pocket full of posie," not too different than the myth that a virgin cures AIDS.

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[HordeKing1]

LUCENTO - I can only hope you're joking. If not, you're betraying an alarming lack of knowledge about AIDS, which might have grave consequences for you in your sexual relations.

You actually wrote:

All cases of AIDS are attributed to HTZ overdosing by doctors.

I suggest you educate yourself about the disease before you go spouting off about it.

And by the way, condoms are one of the only ways to protect against sexually transmitted AIDS.

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[Tall_James]

ATTENTION - BEFORE READING SET SARCASM SENSORS
I don't know what you're all worried about. The African version of "Sesame Street" now has an HIV infected Muppet. Everything's gonna change.

<img src=http://users.rcn.com/jamespatton/talljames1sig.jpg>
IV
Sheepy made this sig. Thank you Sheepy.

[Lucento]

I actually have documentation that proves it. A condom will not protect against a particle thats 0.5 microns across, as HIV is suppose to be. The holes in latex are 5 microns and sperm is 10 microns. Im quite educated King.

<IMG SRC="http://www.osirusonline.com/lucento.jpg">

[Captain Rooster]

You know what this calls for. America to solve the problem..again...up, up, and awaaaaay!

Save the day, America, or it's your fault!

We want your help, America, but we still hate you for prospering.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it must be America's fault. Blame America! Blame Bush!


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[TheMojoPin]

Actually, Europe is the biggest manufactuer and distributer of the new AIDS drug "cocktails".

But that aside, Rooster, is there really anything wrong with maybe WANTING to help? It's a sappy, idealized approach, but you don't need to ALWAYS have to have a return to just do something that's good. Nobody's blaming America for AIDS (Except the REALLY crazy conspiracy nuts), but if we were able to somehow set aside the means to help, even just a little...why not?

We don't need a cue from popstars singing a song to know there are awful human problems around the world.

Of course, there are just some people who seem to almost LIKE being picked on, even when it's not really the case. Because if there's nothing to complain about, God forbid someone did something that's actually proactive and not reactionary. That would just be bonkers.

Nobody's saying America "did this", or HAS to do anything, or NEEDS to do anything over this issue. It hasn't been really implied here, or even towards the issue on an international scale. It's one of those "wow, isn't that awful?" issues that someone could/might/maybe do something about.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-19-03 @ 1:57 PM

[Captain Rooster]

But that aside, Rooster, is there really anything wrong with maybe WANTING to help?


Mojo, bud, don't preach to me about doing things to help or wanting to help. I have sacrificed more time and effort into volunteer work than many new-age hippies and so- called "do gooders" out there.

I have been to South America and worked for the demining of borders, I have trained and worked with the citizens of Uganda. I have a good friend from Uganda. His name is Nuwe Noel. His family was muredred with machetes while he was away on a mission to the United States. I have been the on the contingency side of relief work for the rescue of people in Ruwanda during the fighting there.

I think I know what it means to WANT to help other people and to lay my ass on the line to do so. So watch who you're preaching to. I don't know who you think you may be preaching to -- some teenager who just walked out of a civics class or something -- but not me.

I sure as hell think that we should help the people of Africa, BUT it is their choice to change their culture or not. A culture of men who have unprotected sex with various partners because it is there right as men is only helping to kill that nation. And the drugs do not cure the disease. The drugs keep people alive longer and allow them to further spread a disease that is killing the entire African nation.

I am sick of the world community and our own citrizens blaming America for every friggin' problem on the face of the Earth. I would much rather have the entire New York City Public Schools revamped and have money poured into education by the federal government than have millions poursed into a country we cannot change.

We can do good. We do perpetuate good. And for the most part of our efforts we DO NOT get anything in return except a swift kick in the balls and ungreateful press reports with people who only want more.



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This message was edited by LTRooster on 1-19-03 @ 2:10 PM

[NewYorkDragons80]

Actually, Europe is the biggest manufactuer and distributer of the new AIDS drug "cocktails".
Well, Europe is a continent, while the US is a country. I think the US still leads all nations in aid to Africa. I don't know how that breaks down into drugs, food, etc. though.

Rooster, I know where you're coming from with some ultra-Left thinkers saying that America is the reason for Africa's suffering, but that is not what is being said in this thread. All we're saying is that there is a crisis going on in Africa, and the US needs to do more than it already has. Of course the national education problem hits closer to home, but in my opinion this plague is a bigger problem. I'm not saying the US isn't doing anything, because they are almost always the leaders in aid to any international cause. What I'm saying is that there is still much left to be done. Is your Ugandan friend with the current government?

As far as pop stars and Africa goes, I hope you aren't referring to Bono. Normally, I detest celebrities that cling to a cause just for popularity, but Bono has been pushing for Africa for 2 decades now. He is one of the few that really takes an interest and knows what he is talking about.

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[TheMojoPin]

NOBODY was saying here that America needs to, or even should help.

*I* didn't say it.

Nobody's blaming America for not trying to stop AIDS in Africa either.

Nobody is calling anyone's individual chairty actions into question. "We" means federal and international action, not what each of us do, because I'd like to think that everyone here does something for someone, no matter what the issue. You believe in it, good, great, work it.

Like Dragon said, the issue was being addressed in a general, international sorta "isn't awful that Africa has it so much worse than the rest of the world?" way.

While it's very true that American takes the blame for a lot of bullshit that it doesn't deserve, not everything has to necessarily have anything to do with America, either. If anyone's going to help the Africans in any way on a large scale, it's going to take an international effort, and not just America. Which is how it should be.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[HordeKing1]

LUCENTO - You're not as educated in this matter as you think.

Part of the Catholic Church's propeganda war against birth control, especially condom use, (and their agenda for abstinece and sex within marriage only) is the spread of the lie that latex condoms are not effective in preventing AIDS.

Cardinal John O'Conner and Bishop McHugh are among the perpetrators of this lie.

The Center for Disease Control states unequivocably that latex condoms are effective in preventing AIDS and other sexually transmitted disease

The pores in LATEX condoms are way to small to allow HIV to pass through. NON-LATEX condoms are not effective because HIV can pass through the larger pores of these condoms.

"According to the CDC, studies examining sexually active people at high risk for contracting HIV have found that "even with repeated sexual contact, 98-100 percent of those people who used latex condoms correctly and consistently did not become infected. The CDC recently issued prevention guidelines for state health departments that state "correct and consistent use of latex condoms can reduce the risk of sexually transmitted infections. On August 16, 2001, the United Nations Joint Program on HIV/AIDS and the World Health Organization issued a statement that said that condoms were "the best defense" in preventing sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV/AIDS."

The US National Institutes of Health recently confirmed that condoms are effective in preventing HIV.

The only issue is one which isn't relevant to this discussion and that is the risk of HPV (a form of herpes) even with condom use. It's not difficult to understand this. HPV occurs on parts of the body not covered by a condom and sexual contact is not necessary to transmit it.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

Part of the Catholic Church's propeganda war against birth control, especially condom use, (and their agenda for abstinece and sex within marriage only) is the spread of the lie that latex condoms are not effective in preventing AIDS.
Isn't this thread about Africa? You've been getting distracted in some threads lately.

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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 1-19-03 @ 7:29 PM

[Lucento]

Actually, you are technically correct in the latex verses natural rubber, but my argument is that there is some pretty convinging evidence that HIV does not exist, has never been photographed and has not been chemically isolated, as is required protocal in virul classification standards. I know people are getting sick and people are dying, but mostly it can be attributed to poisoning caused by the very drugs used to treat the virus. In Africa's case, there is pressure from politically motivated groups that wish to attain a broad power base by causing a class division based on ethnic steriotyping and our tendency to try and be "liked" worldwide that we put aside our standards for science and give into the pandering of these groups. They are using the drug companies wealth to influence political reform. They are trying to make the US into a medical-socialist state. These groups want to make it socialist medicine here and they will succede because they have this power now, and the days when we could just walk into a doctors office and pay cash are surely numbered.

<IMG SRC="http://www.osirusonline.com/lucento.jpg">

[Yerdaddy]

i don't know which is the bigger disaster, Africa or this thread.

Lucento, aluminum foil goes around a baked potato, not your head.

<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigyalta.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!

[(AP)]

Instead, they relied on superstition like a "Pocket full of posie," not too different than the myth that a virgin cures AIDS.



The posies weren't thought to be a cure. They kept them in a rag in their pocket and held them over their noses to cover the smell of the dead bodies.

[TooCute]

Lucento, I can't help but
think that you know nothing
about immunology and
biochemistry. Why do
people develop anitibodies
to the virus if it doesnt exist?

That said, here are some
photos of HIV:
http://www.virology.net/Big_
Virology/BVretro.html



<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
ADF makes great sigpics!

[Lucento]

Im just stating the requirements for a virus to be classified. That image is an illustration I was told. In the arena of ideas, we have to be open to the possibility that certain mores are incorrect. Mbeki is a south african national leader as well as a noted scientist and has stated on several occasions that he has undisputable proof the fallacy of the virus's existance. I dont know how we deviated from the initial topic, but I believe that for Africa to survive, it must enter the modern era. Take elephants for example...
pochers and millionare hunters take down many elephants a year in the name of sport. The chinese believe that the horn of the rhyno is a powerful drug, and yet, no where are there farms for these animals in all of africa! Here we eat beef and drink milk and have many uses for cows. We keep them safe and in heards and protect them and there are actually more cows in the US than people! There is no danger of cows going extict, yet why if we are so concerned about the plight of these endangered animals dont they legalize their trade and they will be farmed and taken care of for profit. When you make something illegal, you are dooming it to extinction. Its like the gun issue. If we totally outlaw guns, what will hapen to the guns that exist? They will become so sought after that crimes will be commited to posess them and their value will skyrocket. We dont THINK about the outcome, we only seem to think about knee jerk reactions and its costing us every single day when we willingly give our freedoms up.

<IMG SRC="http://www.osirusonline.com/lucento.jpg">

[TooCute]

Im just stating the
requirements for a virus to
be classified. That image is
an illustration I was
told.
With all due respect,
Lucento, you are very
ignorant if you believe that
HIV viruses do not exist.
Who told you that they are
illustrations? For if that is
what those SEM photos are,
then you may want to let the
AIDS research community -
no, the entire scientific
community know!
Mbeki is a south
african national leader as
well as a noted scientist
and has stated on several
occasions that he has
undisputable proof the
fallacy of the virus's
existance. Do you
refer to Thabo Mbeki,
President of Sought Africa?
I didn't realize that a
degeree in economics now
made one a 'noted
scientist'! In any case, I
don't know if you've actually
read his comments - or
have only read the articles
that I hear from my
boyfriend were in Spin
magazine on this topic, and
I assume mentioned him -
but from what I have read of
his statements, his point of
contention is not the actual
existence of the virus, but
rather the continually
broadening collection of
symptoms that drug
companies are willing to
accept as constituting
"AIDS" and "HIV" and thus
needing drug therapy. This
is an entirely different issue,
one which I think is worthy
of discussion in and of
itself, but irrelevant to the
topic at hand.The
chinese believe that the
horn of the rhyno is a
powerful drug, and yet, no
where are there farms for
these animals in all of
africa!What a
ludicrous statement - Do
you know what a rhinoceros
is? Do you know what an
elephant is? Do you know
how long their gestation
periods are? Do you know
how much land they
require, and what the cost
in feeding them in captivity
is? They are not cows! You
can not 'farm' them or their
horns and tusks. Indeed,
there are large preserves in
Africa for the very purpose of
encouraging the growth of
the populations of these
animals, and many
organizations are working
to encourage local villagers
to take matters into their
own hands, creating safaris
and encouraging the tourist
trade, and discouraging
poaching. Elephants and
rhinos are far more
economically valuable alive
to the countries than they
are in the form of horns and
tusks.


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[Recyclerz]

Spin Magazine did a whole series of articles a few years ago questioning the HIV=AIDS orthodoxy. It was based on the rantings of some Dr. named Duesenberg (sp?) and a few of the fringe ACT UP types. Duesnberg claimed that HIV was a red herring and that AIDs was a syndrome amongst people behaving 'badly' (drug use, promiscuous sex, etc.) who were piling up various health problems. The ACT UPers were saying Glaxo was killing everyody with AZT. <P> I wrote them a letter saying this was the most irresponsible crap I ever read in mainstream media this side of the WSJ Editorial page. <P> I think we have a problem in that science (and legitimate scientists) marches forward in an orderly manner to try to understand the universe but that the lay population in this country keeps getting (scientifically) dumber and thusly more susceptible to spinners who cherry pick facts and craft them into a story that they can sell, while calling it science. (This is coming from one of those useless economics majors;-) ) And if that happens in the US, think of how difficult it is to communicate information about retro viruses to pre-literate areas of Africa. <P> That's not to say we (the rest of the world, including the US) shouldn't be over there trying to modify behavior before the entire southern part of the continent is doomed. We should load up our NGO aid workers with condoms and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and tell the people they don't get the latter without using the former. <P> <P> <P>

You're only young once, but you can be immature forever.

[Lucento]

Ok, enough of this. Apparently none of you are capable of a rational discussion. I didnt make the rule that the virus needs to meet criteria in order for it to be recognized and it has NOT met that criteria. Im not saying people are not dying, Im saying that to point a finger at an unproven life form is just a tad presumptious, but what do I know?

<IMG SRC="http://www.osirusonline.com/lucento.jpg">

[Lucento]

And, there is absolutely NO REASON why an elephant or a rhyno cannot be hearded like cattle. Youd rather let the spieces go extict than go for that alternative. What are they going to do? Force the people who live there to move so that an elephant is happy with 50 acres of land for each one? Think how silly you sound before you spout this crap. Humans are by right, the dominant species and people who dissagree with this statement are incapable of seeing how precious we are.

<IMG SRC="http://www.osirusonline.com/lucento.jpg">

[TooCute]

Lucento, unfortunately you
are not properly educated
about what you are talking
about, and since you do not
wish to listen and have a
discussion, but rather just
say that others are blind
because they disagree with
you, I will not respond to you
further after this post, until
you can demonstrate that
you have some
understanding of the
concepts about which you
are trying to make
assertions. But I will
suggest several things in
closing:

1. AIDS. I suggest you go to
your library and take out an
immunology textbook,
microbiology testbook and
a finally recent book on the
HIV virus, so that you have a
basic working knowledge of
how diseases work and
how we test for them before
you believe everything that
you read.

2. I suggest you go to the
library and take out books
on elephants and rhinos
before you make the
assertion that they can be
farmed. As I mentioned
earlier - and you
demonstrated your
ignorance by ignoring -
these are animals that can
not be farmed. A country
that can not afford to feed its
own people certainly can
not afford to feed elephants
and rhinos! A cow's
gestation period is 9
months. Rhinos carry their
young for almost twice as
long - 16 months, and
elephants the longest at 23
months - almost two years!
- and they do not breed very
well in captivity. If you can
come up with an
economically viable way to
'herd' and 'harvest'
elephants and rhinos - to
increase their population
numbers, please do let
organizatoins like the the
WWF know! But as far as I
can tell, the cost of raising
an elephant or rhino for 10
or 15 years in captivity so
that its tusks or horns (or
actually 'horn'; black rhinos,
which have two horns, are
notoriously nasty and
generally are not found in
captivity in zoos) can grow
to a 'harvestable' size is far
larger than the profit from
selling said tusks.

Finally, your comment about
humans being by all rights
the dominant species on
the Earth displays a lack of
knowledge of ecology, and
how the world works. Do
you advocate cutting down
the rainforest so that crops
can be planted to feed
people in South America
and Central Africa? Again, I
suggest you head to the
library and check out a
textbook on ecology and
conservation and then think
about these issues again.

If you need any suggestions
as far as literature goes, I
will be happy to suggest
good texts for you.


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[NewYorkDragons80]

You can not 'farm' them or their horns and tusks. Indeed, there are large preserves in Africa for the very purpose of encouraging the growth of
the populations of these
animals, and many organizations are working to encourage local villagers to take matters into their own hands, creating safaris and encouraging the tourist trade, and discouraging poaching. Elephants and rhinos are far more economically valuable alive to the countries than they are in the form of horns and
tusks.
I'm not agreeing with a lot of what Lucento has said. but the idea of farming Rhinos and Elephants sounds like a good idea. Granted, you would need more space, but someone should look into this.

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[TooCute]

I'm not agreeing with
a lot of what Lucento has
said. but the idea of farming
Rhinos and Elephants
sounds like a good idea.
Granted, you would need
more space, but someone
should look into this

In case this is not a troll that
I'm falling for: please read
my above post.


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ADF makes great sigpics!

[HordeKing1]

NYDRAGON wrote:

Isn't this thread about Africa? You've been getting distracted in some threads lately.

Bringing religion into the discussion is crucial to understanding the etiology of the problem as well as the numerous hurdles faced. Religious leaders have spread lies about the transmission of AIDS, as do the African leadership, and the product is posts like Lucento's.


Lucento wrote:

Actually, you are technically correct in the latex verses natural rubber

No, I'm not technically right, I'm flat out right and you're flat out wrong. At least you had the grace to admit it. However, you go on to post something very very disturbing.

My argument is that there is some pretty convinging evidence that HIV does not exist, has never been photographed and has not been chemically isolated, as is required protocal in virul classification standards. I know people are getting sick and people are dying, but mostly it can be attributed to poisoning caused by the very drugs used to treat the virus

I'm flabbergasted by this statement. It is wrong on EVERY point. I don't mean to sound insulting, but you don't have a clue what you're talking about in this matter.

Mbeki is a south african national leader as well as a noted scientist and has stated on several occasions that he has undisputable proof the fallacy of the virus's existance

He's completely out of his mind insane. I'm sure you know that the source of information is at least as important as the information itself. Come on now!


And, there is absolutely NO REASON why an elephant or a rhyno cannot be hearded like cattle.

You have GOT to be fucking kidding. It can't be done. The simplest reason is that these animals have a very long gestation period, require lots of room and are very difficult to breed in captivity.




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[Lucento]

Boy those drug companys must be paying you guys well! Im almost convinced myself. The very same argument was said about the buffalo and their success rate as a domesticated species is phenominal. What does their gestation period have to do with their domestication? I will no longer post or reply to this thread as your grandstaning gets in the way of rational discussion the way adults communicate that I associate with, so enjoy yourselves!

<IMG SRC="http://www.osirusonline.com/lucento.jpg">

[Reephdweller]

I will no longer post or reply to this thread as your grandstaning gets in the way of rational discussion the way adults communicate that I associate with, so enjoy yourselves!


damn...just as i was about to join the discussion!

<IMG SRC="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=go2osirus">

[HordeKing1]

I will no longer post or reply to this thread as your grandstaning [sic] gets in the way of rational discussion the way adults communicate that I associate with, so enjoy yourselves!

You're entitled to consider it grandstanding. I consider it education via correcting some of the egregiously disturbing misinformation you've posted regarding this topic.

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[TooCute]

The very same
argument was said about
the buffalo and their
success rate as a
domesticated species is
phenominal. What does
their gestation period have
to do with their
domestication?

I reply not for your sake,
Lucento, but for the sake of
anyone who might be
ignorant enough in this
area to agree with you.

1. A buffalo is, for all intents
and purposes, a cow. It has
the same gestation period,
and similar requirements in
terms of required space
and nutrition. It reaches full
size and maturity in about
two years, and breeds well
in captivity.

2. Elephants have a two
year gestation period, and
the young nurse for around
four years. Their tusks do
not reach 'harvestable' size
until ten years or later. They
are difficult to breed in
captivity, and the african
elephant is particularly
difficult to even keep in
captivity because of its
temperment.

What is the upshot of this?
With buffalo, after a couple
of years, your herd is
producing adults that can
be 'harvested' for their fur
and meat. You pay to keep
on female alive, and she
can produce one or two
calves every single year for
you profit from.

With elephants, the per day
cost of simply keeping a
female alive (in captivity - for
food, or on a reserve - for
paying guards against
poachers, etc) is already far
greater than that of a cow or
a buffalo. On top of that, An
elephant can realistically
have about one calf (twins
are extremely rare) every
five years. That calf does
not reach 'harvestable' size
for at least ten years (luckily,
both males and females
have tusks!). So paying to
keep one female alive, you
are 'harvesting' one pair of
tusks essentially every 7
years, while paying to keep
an animal (beside your
initial female) alive for ten
years. Again, in a country
where people can not afford
to feed themselves, this is
simply not economically
viable.

On the other hand, many
african nations currently
derive large percentages of
their income from
ecotourism - rich white folks
going 'on safari'. In this
instance, you have a
constant income throughout
the lifetime of each
elephant.

Which makes more sense?
:)


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ADF makes great sigpics!

[NewYorkDragons80]

Just for the record, I commented on domesticating Elephants half-jokingly. I would have used a smiley-face, but SOME people have cautioned against that.

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[Reephdweller]

I don't know why everyone is being so hard on Lucento, I mean I get it, that his thoughts don't jive with others on the facts. But he's entitled to his views. He came to a conclusion that to him is right. Just the same way you are. I'll agree that I don't share his views on the facts, but I don't see why everyone attacks him just for having a counterpoint.

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[TooCute]

Nobody's attacking Lucento.
Just criticising his
statements and
conclusions!


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[NewYorkDragons80]

Hordeking, I am not going to claim to be an expert on condoms and HIV, because I am not. However, while I believe that we must introduce methods of safe sex to Africans who choose to continue to have sex, wouldn't you agree that the best way to prevent AIDS and HIV is abstinence?

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[HordeKing1]

NYDRAGON - Yes, abstinence is a sure-fire way to avoid the spread of AIDS by sex. (Of course, it doesn't stop the spread from shared needles, contact with blood or other fluids, etc).

The problem is that every healthy person in the world wants to have sex. It's our strongest drive. Given that people are going to have sex no matter what, the best way to prevent the sexually transmitted spread of HIV/AIDS is by condom usage.

It's drastically reduced the incidence of AIDS and STD infection in America.

Abstinence is fine if it's based on a personal moral or religious belief. But, when push comes to shove, the overwhelming majority of people are sexually active. Abstinence only programs in America (as opposed to sex education about how to prevent STDs) have been spectacularly ineffective.

The ideal programs educate people that STD's come from all types of sex. Abstinence prevents STD's. But if you're going to have sex, you MUST use a condom.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

I have no problem with a sex-ed program that sends the message which promotes abstinence, but it should also prepare those who choose to be sexually active.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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[furie]

any effort at curbing the spread of AIDS in Africa must be done along side of a (forgive the term) nation building program. Education is the key, and governments keep the education systems going. But the problem that we'll face here is we'll be perceived as imperialist.

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<font size=3><b><font color=green>Furie</b></font>

[furie]

in the state of the union address, bush mentioned an african aid bill.

thoughts?

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<font size=3><b><font color=green>Furie</b></font>
</font><br>

[HordeKing1]

Bush says a lot of things and does nothing constructive.

Lets see him stop taking the benefits away from single welfare moms first. Lets see him restore funding to public housing. Let's see him socialize medicine. Let's see him stop polutting the environmentl. Let's see him stop allying the US with terrorists during a supposed "war on terrorism"

If he can or would do any of the above, I'd find any statement he made a bit more credible.

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