Downloading Music: Stealing?

[The Blowhard]

Well?

<img src=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/EverybodyLovesHeckSIG.gif>
THAT'S Amore!

[KC2OSO]

Of course it's stealing. An artist has created something of value for which the downloader is paying nothing. Musicians need to eat too. Just because music is digitized doesn't mean that it's freeware.
Whether $17 to $22 dollars on average is fair is another matter. We all have those CD's with one or two good songs on them with 15 other crap songs.

I've switched to a fee-for-service P2P. No adware. Besides Kazaa and WinMX - which do drop adware, there aren't many good sharing services out there anymore anyway.

http://www.njmikec.com/Fester1.jpg

[Orallo]

Nope, stealing implies depriving the owner of the stolen item, and you are simply downloading a duplicate copy of the song.

So no, its not stealing, maybe fraud, or some other legal/moral crime but it is NOT stealing.

Peace & Hugs,


<IMG SRC="http://www.talktime.com/i/SIGPIC3.jpg">

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #173 starving PCP-laden gerbils
WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #137 tweezers
WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #12 Hydrochloric acid.
WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #27 Use an electric belt sander.
WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #4 Cattle prod set on "Ultra High".
WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #42 Use a weedeater.

[JiZ]

Personally, I always equated it to going to a friend's house and copying a tape or disc from him/her. I never actually considered it a criminal act such as stealing. I think downloading movie dvd screeners is more stealing. Being Oscar season, judges are given actual dvd screeners of all the nominations. I have just finished d/l'ing every movie that is in theatres. Other than a tiny message that says, "For Your Consideration", which dissapears after a few seconds... they are perfect quality dvd's. Some are better than the movie theatre quality. So, until I download a song and hear an occasional message, I think it's the same as getting a copy from a friend.

Please excuse the name...My Brooklynlivecam username seems to have been killed



This message was edited by JiZ on 1-16-03 @ 5:51 PM

[furie]

yes, because i'm not paying for it, and the owner of the music isn't getting paid. I possess an item that i took without permission and without paying. it's stealing but i'm ok with it.

<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/simpsons.jpg" width=300 height=100>
Lighting up the New Year


This message was edited by furie on 1-16-03 @ 5:54 PM

[FelixDasGato]

Stealing is such an ugly term I like to use appropriate

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/felixwalk.gif">

[ChrisTheCop]

yes, because i'm not paying for it, and the owner of the music isn't getting paid. I possess an item that i took without permission and without paying. it's stealing
Well then, I'm gonna stake out the local libraries tomorrow for some easy collars.
Downloading music from the internet is no more stealing than Heckler recycling Aggie's old thread topic and calling it his own. Sometimes it has to be done.
Music's availability on the internet is just another way to get the artist's art out to the masses. It's all about the art, not the $ right?


<img src="http://rfcop.50megs.com/images/badgesig-lorenathe_aggie.jpg">an Aggie Joint

[Death Metal Moe]

Sure it is.

The real question is: Do you care enough to stop doing it?

<IMG SRC=http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/njdmmoe/baconsig.jpg>
<A HREF="http://www.unhallowed.com">www.unhallowed.com</A>
DEATH FACTION 4 LIFE!
<A HREF="http://www.pub21.ezboard.com/bonaarmy">JOIN THE O&A ARMY!!!</A>

[HordeKing1]

CHRIS beat me to it. I analogize recording mp3's to borrowing books from the library.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[phixion]

if its a good Cd i will buy it.
if its an artist i love i will buy it. every other artist can kiss my ass. release a high quality CD and ill buy it.

<IMG SRC="http://members.hometown.aol.com/triniguy4life/images/triniflag.gif">
"smoking weed, smoking weed doing coke, drinking beers
drinking beers, beers, beersrolling fatties, smoking bluntswho smokes the blunts?we smoke the blunts." -Jay

[schmega]

legally? yes. but the RIAA just admitted to stealing from us for years. then there's the fact that a downloaded song isnt the same as a cd. i only feel guilty if its a struggling musician. then again, i'm a struggling human being. no, really, i am. besides, if you dont want your music to be shared, dont make it.

[canofsoup15]

As it has been said before: it is stealing. But so is buying a record for 15$ when it probably costed less than 2 to make. If i really like a band, ill buy there cd, but other than that, its way overpriced.

<img src=http://members.aol.com/vikorynotvengnce/images/canofsoup.gif>

I sit,
in my desolate room,
no lights, no music,
Just anger,
I've killed everyone,
I'm away forever,
but I'm feeling better,

[FiveB247]

Honestly, it isn't stealing...but it's not moral either.

No one seems to mind buying VCR's or tapes either..is that stealing?

[TheMojoPin]

It's not stealing per se, but if you're one of those "I'll never buy a CD again!" jerkoffs, it's damn near close. Bands make music for the art, but come on, it's also what they're doing for a JOB after a certain point. It's like going into a restaurant, making the chef cook you a five-course meal, and then try to "pay" him by raving about how much you "love" his work and "appreciate" all that he does, but then just laugh and point when he "dares" to ask for money.

People confuse the issue. If you think CD's are too expensive, your gripe is with the monopolisitc record companies, not the artists.

On the other hand, most musicians make the bulk of their money off of tours and merchandising, and relatively very off of record deals, at least in the longterm, unless they lucked into a really fantastic deal.

It's a tricky subject. I'm all for MP3's, but if I like the artists (And I've found hundreds I never even would have tried if it weren't for MP3's), I always go out and buy the CD.

I actually haven't downloaded music in over a year. I'm sent so much free stuff, get so many magazine CD samplers, and know so many good streaming sites that it's ultimately a waste of my time. And MP3's sound like ass anyways.

<img src=http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/mjpin1.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[fluffernutter]

If anything, I download music to check out the band or to burn to a disc if I already OWN it and I am making a comp. Makes for quick burning like that. <P>
Personally, I think that the Major Labels are scum. I hate it when i have to bite the bullet and buy the Major Label record but hey, it is a necessary evil sometimes. I support mostly independent artists which 9 times out of 10 if I would walk into fye or whatever the hell it is called now and ask for planesmistakenforstars or SNFU even I would get the same look as if I was asking for vinyl (what's that?). <P>
Most of the BIG stores sell their CD's for insane rates and even in some cases where the Indie Label has

<IMG SRC="http://home.1asphost.com/bobimpact/fluff1.gif ">

Thanks FelixDelGato and BobImpact

[The Blowhard]

Downloading music from the internet is no more stealing than Heckler recycling Aggie's old thread topic and calling it his own. Sometimes it has to be done.



What?

<img src=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/EverybodyLovesHeckSIG.gif>
THAT'S Amore!

[furie]

Well then, I'm gonna stake out the local libraries tomorrow for some easy collars.


CHRIS beat me to it. I analogize recording mp3's to borrowing books from the library.

my taxes pay for those books. So I am therefore entitled to borrow them. and the books are purchased from the publisher. The Analogy doesn't hold.


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/simpsons.jpg" width=300 height=100>
Lighting up the New Year

[HordeKing1]

The analogy is appropriate, because the library pays for one copy of the book which is read countless times. The original CD is paid for by at least one person and used by many as well.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[TheMojoPin]

The original CD is paid for by at least one person and used by many as well.

That's questionable at best. What artists are most concerned about are studio leaks that end up the internet or are sold on the street as "official" releases. More and more often you'll find studio sessions, demos and unfinished songs popping up on the web before a band has even finsished their album...

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[ChrisTheCop]

In that case, the leak is the crime. They have more control over that, they should stop it at the source. Thats like someone hacking Stephen King's computer and downloading his new novel, printing it and giving it to a library to loan to people. Obviously wrong. But I would think (and i have no stats to back this up) that the majority of music on a site like napster is as the HordeKing described.

<img src="http://rfcop.50megs.com/images/aldukesfan-christhecop.gif">ADF, who else?

[Abrasive Dean]

When I absolutely WILL download music is when they pricks at the record companies have employed some form of piss poor protection which is supposed to stop thetracks being "ripped" to MP3.

This usually has the unintended result of actually preventing it from playing on some of my CD players.

I want to be able to take music, which I have paid for, either on my computer or iPod MP3 player.

So I often d/l stuff

<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/deanmcg/sig/sig3.jpg">

[Reephdweller]

I only view it as stealing if you download it and keep it and don't buy the music later.

I've downloaded lots of albums and burned them to cds...hopped in the car with them and gave em good listens...If I really like the album I'll buy it. I do believe in rewarding artists who put out good work.

<IMG SRC="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=go2osirus">

[TheMojoPin]

But the library analogy is still flawed. One CD costs, say, around $15. One person MAY have bought it. Or maybe it was a promo copy, which a re clearly labelled that they are NOT to be distributed or resold. Or a used CD. There's simply no guarentee that someone actually paid for that CD on the other end. Whereas a library book costs (Not including mass market paperbacks) at LEAST two or three times what it would in a store. "Library binding" isn't cheap, and they're available for order in my store's system. While an average fiction hardcover runs for $25, an average library bound copy of the same title is at least $50, so you're getting a super mark-up on top of a super mark-up. So while it doesn't technically pay for every reading, there is known cost and profit adjustment. Kinda like how rental copies of movies on VHS and DVD's cost close to $100 when initally released.

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[IRISjr]

Ya it's stealing...
ok that's the end of this post

<center><img src="http://members.aol.com/rundog2001/myhomepage/irissig.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US"></center>

<marquee>IRIS loves ya</marquee>
<marquee>but IRIS jr probably doesn't</marquee>

<marquee>SAVE RON AND FEZ 4 FUTURE GENERATIONS!!!</marquee>

[Lucento]

What is an artists motivation aside from getting his craft out to the masses, if he isnt being compensated? If the work you do at your job was being copied and being used by a another as if it was their work, would you have a problem with it? I think it should be called borrowing, as opposed to stealing. Now, if you sell a borrowed item, what do you call that? Lets say your friend borrows your DVD and then when you ask for it back he tells you he sold it to someone.... did he "steal" it?

<IMG SRC="http://www.osirusonline.com/lucento.jpg">

[furie]

Another reason the library analogy doesn't hold up is the copyright clause. "No unauthorized duplication or redistribution."

first, you're not duplicating the book when you borrow it from the library. and if you do, then you're stealing. But with napster-like programs, you obtain the cd by unauthorized duplication.

Redistribution. When the publisher sells the book to a library, it's understood it's giving consent for redistribution of that one copy.

<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/simpsons.jpg" width=300 height=100>
Lighting up the New Year

[ChrisTheCop]

1)The music industry, way back when, had a huge problem when radio decided to play records. For years, they had live bands in the studio, and records were for home use. Now, if the radio's gonna play records, no one will ever buy them for themselves! 2)The entertainment industry had a huge problem when home vcrs came out. If people can tape movies off the tv for free, theyll never pay for another movie again! ...in both instances, the industries adapted, and in the end, became even more succesful because of the new technology. This is just history repeating itself.

<img src="http://rfcop.50megs.com/images/aldukesfan-christhecop.gif">ADF, who else?

[Lucento]

I hadnt thought about it that way. But to compare it to tv and vcr's and taping movies, you needed cable and you paid for it. Unless the artists can get anything from the cable modem people and however people use the technology to download the music in the first place. This new XM radio has the same potential. Soon, I suspect, artists will begin incorporating products into their lyrics.

<IMG SRC="http://www.osirusonline.com/lucento.jpg">

[TheMojoPin]

you needed cable and you paid for it.

And the cable companies pay to broadcast the movie channels, which pay the studios each time they rebroadcast a film...or you're paying pay-per-view...unless you're STEALING cable.

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Leadbottom]

Thieves.

[Bama]

I like to download a song I like when I hear it on the radio. It beats sitting around waiting for it to come back on so I can tape it (like back in the day). Sometimes they might not play it for a whole hour!

<img src="http://home.1asphost.com/bobimpact/bamanation.jpg">
Thanks Bobimpact!
http://bobimpact.coolfreepage.com

[HordeKing1]

Yeah, this is history repeating itself.

The movie industry made a big fuss about VCR's. The record industry made a big fuss about casette tapes. Some people are fearful of change, no matter how beneficial it is to them.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[Abrasive Dean]

The movie industry made a big fuss about VCR's.


They are also starting to bleat about how DVD's are reducing the number of times someone might see a film at the cinema.

They cited Star Wars Attack of the Clones as an example. Stating that the DVD reproduction was so good (being one of the first digital-digital DVD's) that fewer people would return to the cinema to more than once.

I saw the DVD on my HUGE screen at home I am glad I never went to the cinema.

Back on topic ALL CD's have an agreement which states clearly (in minute print) no unauthorised duplication or such like...

<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/deanmcg/sig/cam.jpg">

This message was edited by Abrasive Dean on 1-22-03 @ 6:21 PM