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DJEvelEd
01-30-2003, 06:12 AM
I was promised eternal life from Jesus. Being a pessimist, I wonder if eternal life is just the earth freezing over(from the sun dying, or a nuclear winter)and floating through eternity. Technically we would still be alive but frozen. Is this a Theological loophole?

>>Big Bird is Ferrall's bitch<<

DarkHippie
01-30-2003, 07:07 AM
when you die, your body decomposes, which feeds plants and animals, which die, decompose, feed other plants and animals, and so on for all eternity.

If that isn't eternal life, I don't know what is? You will be a tree, a blade of grass, a worm, a bird, every plant and animal you can imagine! The best part is: you already have. The stuff that makes up your body has been around since the dawn of time. You've been a dinosaur, a wooly mammoth, who knows what else? and who knows what's to come :)

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walking joint
01-30-2003, 07:20 AM
i have to smoke a little more before trying to answer this one.

DJEvelEd
01-30-2003, 09:08 AM
when you die, your body decomposes, which feeds plants and animals, which die, decompose, feed other plants and animals, and so on for all eternity.

If that isn't eternal life, I don't know what is? You will be a tree, a blade of grass, a worm, a bird, every plant and animal you can imagine! The best part is: you already have. The stuff that makes up your body has been around since the dawn of time. You've been a dinosaur, a wooly mammoth, who knows what else? and who knows what's to come

This is very cool. I totally agree. I work at Bell Labs and I actually have talked to Bob Wilson and Arno Penzias about stuff like this. (Wilson/Penzias won a Nobel Prize in 1978 for their work on the Big Bang Theory.) They get deep and break life down into atoms, quarks, strings, frequencies, and waves. Perhaps we contain the same stuff that dinosaurs do on a supersubatomic level. God recycles...

>>Big Bird is Ferrall's bitch<<

Death Metal Moe
01-30-2003, 11:49 AM
Eternal life sounds SO NICE doesn't it?

I've found that things that sound TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE usually are.

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reeshy
01-30-2003, 12:46 PM
Imagine, MOE...eternal bacon!!!!

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HordeKing1
01-31-2003, 08:56 PM
Nothing is eternal. All species eventually go extinct. Even the universe will eventually die. The best thing we have to eternal life is passing on our half of our genetic code to our kids.

One question though - If you're frozen when you die, how would you "float" through eternity? Wouldn't you be encased in the ice?



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Dewey
01-31-2003, 09:34 PM
Is this a Theological loophole?


Yeah, God's got nothing better to do with His time than play dirty tricks on us.

<IMG SRC="http://www.agw-werbeartikel.de/images/easy-rider.jpg"><br>"Still searching for America."

HordeKing1
01-31-2003, 09:51 PM
Playing dirty tricks?

If you believe the bible, god created us in his image; cruel, vicious, twisted, mean, murderous, hateful and deceitful (to name a few endearing qualities), then created a hell to punish us for being like him.

Almost makes you laugh at the entire concept...

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DJEvelEd
02-01-2003, 02:42 AM
One question though - If you're frozen when you die, how would you "float" through eternity? Wouldn't you be encased in the ice?


I was talking about the entire planet freezing over. It's possible in a couple million years...

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reeshy
02-01-2003, 04:04 AM
how would you "float" through eternity?

That's easy!! Icecubes float in my drink!!

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DarkHippie
02-01-2003, 05:06 AM
Nothing is eternal. All species eventually go extinct. Even the universe will eventually die
I disagree. Species don't so much go exist as some of them evolve into other species. And the universe won't die. instead, the outward expansion caused by the big band will lose its momentum. it will collaspe into a superdense ball of nothing where not even space-time can escape. eventually this ball will become unstable and explode in a "big bang" creating the universe all over again. this has possibly happened several times already.

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<marquee>Who is DarkHippie? "You look like an Amish child molester"-- Jim Norton. "Watch out for this one. Someday he's gonna snap and kill you all."-- Rich Vos </marquee>
<i>LABELS ARE FOR PRODUCTS, NOT PEOPLE! DON'T HUG A TREE, PLANT ONE!
</i><a href=http://www.freeopendiary.com/entrylist.asp?authorcode=A537085>Gonads and Strife: a journal</a>

PotentialIsZero
02-01-2003, 05:56 AM
What about the buddhist ideas, its said that this life, this existence is the hell, the area in which we learn what we need to know, to be better suited for the life in the real world; its like the mel brooks movie,defending your life, you have to learn and be strong before moving on. Thats where the eternal life may come in, in the life that supercedes the learning of now. If you're refering to promises made by Jesus, for a long time now, i've believed that Jesus had some buddhist teachings and that may explain his lost years, certain things he said on "the sermon on mount" or elsewhere seemed to have a buddhist nature to them, maybe thats where it comes from. Or maybe we just die and become fertilizer for some plant when we die. Whatever it is, juust live the life thats given and maybe later we'll all be rockstars. I want to be LYNN STRAIT.


Bitches love me 'cause they know that i can rock.
Bitches love me 'cause they know that i can rhyme.
Bitches love me 'cause they know that i can f[_]ck.
Bitches love me 'cause they know that i'm on time.

FUNKMAN
02-01-2003, 02:29 PM
what religion sells you is "after-life insurance"...
you are not sure if you need it but don't want to be caught without it...

i am skeptical about the "eternal life/heaven" theory...

there is one thing that makes me think there needs to be more beyond this life, and that's the Love that is shared by family. Once you have children you could never imagine life without them and would sacrifice your own to save their's.
This Love seems to be more than a product of evolution...

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This message was edited by FUNKMAN on 2-1-03 @ 6:36 PM

IrishAlkey
02-01-2003, 06:43 PM
the outward expansion caused by the big band


Are we talkin' Top 40 or Blues?

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grlNIN
02-01-2003, 06:54 PM
there is one thing that makes me think there needs to be more beyond this life, and that's the Love that is shared by family. Once you have children you could never imagine life without them and would sacrifice your own to save their's.
This Love seems to be more than a product of evolution...



theres no stronger love then the love of a family

We Say Stand Together, Not To Fight Just To Exist
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HordeKing1
02-02-2003, 08:26 PM
REESHY - Eventually the ice cubes melt. The water evaporates. There's nothing left.

DARKHIPPY - You make 2 big assumptions in your post.

First you posit ONLY a closed universe, as opposed to an open universe. The jury is still out on that issue as physicists switch back and forth between the two concepts. An open universe will just be cold, unmoving, all energy exhausted, nothingness.

Secondly, assuming the validity of the closed universe model, and it's eventual collapse into an escheton, there is no indication that anything would happen after that. It's a pretty big assumption that this would cause a big bang. It's a theory, but just that. I doubt our species will exist long enough to learn the truth.

Oh yeah. Of course species go extinct. The overwhelming majority of species do. Some species evolve, but most are evolutionary dead ends. Neanderthals come immediately to mind. It was not an anscestor of Hablis or Erectus (although they coexisted w/Erectus for several thousand years). When they died, they died. No species evolved from them.

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Death Metal Moe
02-03-2003, 09:22 AM
How scary is it that after we'll all dead and gone, there may STILL be a plain of existence where DEATH METAL MOE will be pestering you with hugs, loud music, dipshit posts and bacon for all eternity?

Where's your God NOW?

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Bama
02-03-2003, 10:13 AM
Oh yeah, keep questioning God and the infalability of his word.

Being frozen will definitely not be your biggest concern. :)

God rules!

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DarkHippie
02-03-2003, 01:46 PM
First you posit ONLY a closed universe, as opposed to an open universe. The jury is still out on that issue as physicists switch back and forth between the two concepts. An open universe will just be cold, unmoving, all energy exhausted, nothingness.
There are big assumptions, but both are firmly based in the laws of Physics. energy cannot be destroyed, it can only be transfered, therefore only the theory of a closed universe is the only feasible one to me (an open universe is a violation of those laws, as energy can never be completly "spent" in the universe)

The same theory can be used when it collaspes. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore, at either point in the universe (either its most kinetic or most potential) there will be a similar reaction waiting to happen, maybe not immediately, or anytime soon, but it will happen. The energy of the universe will never become completly potential (static)or completly kinetic.

as for animals become exitinct, sure, they die, then refrom as other plants and animals (see above post).

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/darkhippie2.gif>
<marquee>Who is DarkHippie? "You look like an Amish child molester"-- Jim Norton. "Watch out for this one. Someday he's gonna snap and kill you all."-- Rich Vos </marquee>
<i>LABELS ARE FOR PRODUCTS, NOT PEOPLE! DON'T HUG A TREE, PLANT ONE!
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grlNIN
02-03-2003, 02:34 PM
Wow reading the posts between HK and Darkhippie leave me feeling like the stupidest person in the world, or maybe its just the pot....

We Say Stand Together, Not To Fight Just To Exist
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HordeKing1
02-03-2003, 08:18 PM
I did a bit of further research on this topic to double check my recollection.

The closed universe theory has been all but disproved. It is no longer given serious consideration. This is in large part due to the fact that the universe continues to expand, and the expansion is accelerating. There is simply not enough mass in the universe to halt the expansion. (This includes light and dark matter, the weight of all neutrinos, etc. The universe has only about 1/5 to 1/10 of the matter needed to halt the expansion.) Hawking (originally a proponent of the closed universe theory) didn't believe this at first, and said, "I thought for many years that the astronomers had simply overlooked something, that there was enough matter to close the universe." He concedes he was mistaken. This is very nicely illustrated in "A Brief History of Time." It's a stellar book (bad pun) but if you can get past the dense and difficult language, the ideas are beautiful.

In January 1998, at the conclusion of the annual meeting of the American Astronomical Association, it was announced that 5 independent studies, each approaching the issue from a different angle, had all come to the conclusion that the universe is almost without question "open", or as one follow-up report put it "destined to expand forever." (See Astronomy Magazine News reports of Feb. 17, 1998: see also the feature article "The Future of the Universe" in the August 1998 issue of Sky & Telescope magazine, pages 32-39 by Fred Adams [U. of Michigan] and Gregory Laughlin [U. of California, Berkeley]).

Before all this data was available, in 1917, Einstein was a big proponent of the closed universe theory. In later years he changed his mind. Then he flipped back again. Then he basically said, "I don't know." Part of his discomfort with the open universe idea came from the fact that his general theory of relativity required a closed universe. That was one reason for his frustration with quantum mechanics, for which his theories didn't work. (Superstring theory attempts to breach the gulf b/w general relativity and quantum mechanics.)

Stephen Hawking, Neil Turok, and even Andrei Linde, (a physicist who disagrees on Hawking's "inflationary" component of the Big Bang, but not the conclusion of the open universe), note that the Big Bang theory is basically proven. (It can't be completely proven, b/c it cannot be falsified.) Three separate facts led to this conclusion, including 1.) The presence in the universe of the precise amount of background radiation predicted by the theory; 2.) The presence of hydrogen, helium, (as well as deuterium and lithium) as the most common elements and of course, 3.) The ever-expanding (and accelerating) universe. (One recent study suggested that the acceleration will pick up in speed in the near future (near that is, on a cosmic time scale)

To sum up, despite having tasted of desire, the universe will end not in fire but in ice (or rather heat death), maximum entropy, and death of all the stars and of course oblivion. So long and thanks for all the fish.




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TheMojoPin
02-03-2003, 08:48 PM
So long and thanks for all the fish.

Be sure to tip the host to get a good seat away from the kitchen so you've got a grand view when it all goes "pop!"

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DJEvelEd
02-04-2003, 03:56 AM
a closed universe, as opposed to an open universe

Why couldn't it be both...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Big Bird is Ferrall's bitch
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

DarkHippie
02-04-2003, 04:56 AM
I'll have to look into this. It has been a couple of years since I've studied physics (i actually failed because i skipped class so much and would only show up for tests; let that be a lesson to you youngins). one thing that still bothers me is that this open universe theory says that the energy of the universe will run out and that there isn't enough mass to "reel it back in" (to coin a phrase). But when i was at the museum of natural history last year, in there new exhibit on the universe, it described the universe as elastic. Entropy to me doesn't mean the loss of something, it means the breaking down and recycling of something. What if as the energy of the universe dies, it is transfered into mass? (as per the converse of Einstein's theory of relativity)

The idea of an open system just seems incongruent with everything we know about nature. Nature works in cycles. everything is a cycle except Nature itself? I just think its a cycle too grand for us too fathom.

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<i>LABELS ARE FOR PRODUCTS, NOT PEOPLE! DON'T HUG A TREE, PLANT ONE!
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A.J.
02-04-2003, 05:38 AM
I remember having discussions like this when I used to get high.

Thanks for the fragmented memories!

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DJEvelEd
02-04-2003, 09:22 AM
Why couldn't it be both...

Meaning a number of finite closed universes INSIDE an infinite open universe.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Big Bird is Ferrall's bitch
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

HordeKing1
02-05-2003, 10:04 PM
Alternate or parallel universes exist outside of our universe. Our universe must be open. Perhaps another universe is closed. Perhaps a third is flat (reaches equilibrium where it no longer expands OR contracts, but stays at the level of equilibrium). But they cannot exist simultaneously within the same universe.

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