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Reephdweller
02-01-2003, 06:07 AM
What the hell happened?

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Heather 8
02-01-2003, 06:11 AM
I haven't even turned on the TV yet... all I've heard is that communications with it were interrupted just after it entered our atmosphere. <P>
There was an Israeli on board, so already news outlets are saying that it may have been a terrorism incident. <P>

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Proud owner of two Figgy Points

This message was edited by Peachy on 2-1-03 @ 10:12 AM

reeshy
02-01-2003, 06:11 AM
Reef,
From what I've heard- it blew up over central Texas upon re-entry! the rest they are trying to piece together!!
Washington has also stated that it is NOT related to a terrorist attack!!

<IMG SRC=http://www.rollingmania.com.ar/rs_2001/keith/dibujos/images/rich6.jpg>


This message was edited by reeshy on 2-1-03 @ 10:15 AM

Reephdweller
02-01-2003, 06:16 AM
how odd is it that this happened over Palestine Tx, with a Isreali on board...

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reeshy
02-01-2003, 06:16 AM
Oh NO-Not you, Reef- No conspiracy theories- Please- You're too sane for that!!!!

<IMG SRC=http://www.rollingmania.com.ar/rs_2001/keith/dibujos/images/rich6.jpg>

Reephdweller
02-01-2003, 06:21 AM
it's just all curious Reeshy, that's all.

I think it was a problem from the beginning, they had a problem at take off too.

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Doogie
02-01-2003, 06:21 AM
People you have to realize that in over two hundred missions between the United States and Soviet Union/Russia that THE most dangerous part of the mission is the re-entry. The thing we have ALWAYS taken for granted is that every United States Mission Since Project Mercury in 1959 there has ALWAYS been a successful recovery of every capsule since that project. We have to wait and see what happened to this mission. This business (piloting) is a business frought with death. Just cause it doesnt happen often doent mean that it cant happen. The Columbia wass the oldest shuttle in service today. It was flown initially by John Young and Robert Crippen on April 14, 1981. (Ironically making Young the most travelled man in the history of avionics between projects Gemini, Apollo and the Shuttle). Let us not run to conspiracy theorys before we have our facts. If anyone needs any questions answered regarding the space program feel free to email them my way...thank you.

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/doogie.gif>
ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
"Impossible is only the failure of imagination"
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This message was edited by Doogie76 on 2-1-03 @ 10:55 AM

Heather 8
02-01-2003, 06:22 AM
Hey, news outlets said that, not me! We should know by now that every time a major story occurs, some blowdried-pretty-boy-anchorman suddenly deems himself an expert and starts making stuff up. <P> The fact that it fell apart about 200,000 feet in the air doesn't make terrorism too likely. <P> <P>

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Proud owner of two Figgy Points

Immigration Dude
02-01-2003, 06:24 AM
Supposedly the only problem on the flight was a broken dehumidifyer. Made the temp in the shuttle about 80 degrees, 10 hotter than normal.

[img]http://attach4.groups.yahoo.com/v1/YKA5PsURFRl3WfUKYnUwYgju2S-WkrOZlfxAnbz1BdJN1T8io2bMwKl41moFVUHJWFvPtCDyqsIjJ gDyGBNMLWRnGE_XbMi7T93qpg/bcu.bmp[img]
"Im ready turnit upanoch"...

Anakin Skywalker
02-01-2003, 06:24 AM
The shuttle started re-entry at 8:15 am. people heard a loud bang at 9am. For all we know, the shuttle was going so fast it could have broken the sound barrier.

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Reephdweller
02-01-2003, 06:25 AM
someone on cnn said they saw a commercial plane right near it.

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walking joint
02-01-2003, 06:26 AM
just got up and this is all i see on TV. not the best news to wake up to in the morning

Anakin Skywalker
02-01-2003, 06:31 AM
I think the iraeli was a suicide bomber

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Recyclerz
02-01-2003, 06:33 AM
First, our sympathies should go to the families of the astronauts who died. <P>
My second, somewhat atavistic, response is that wherever in the world people start doing their little happy dances over this tragedy because of the nationalities of the people that died (American, Israeli, Indian) should be added to Bush's hit list. :-( <P>
<P>

[b]You're only young once, but you can be immature forever. [b]

Reephdweller
02-01-2003, 06:33 AM
I see this note on Drudges site...There was no threat made against the flight; was out of range of a surface-to-air missile...

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Immigration Dude
02-01-2003, 06:33 AM
I dont know about you but I would have a hard time being shot into space by a shuttle made in 1979.

[img]http://attach4.groups.yahoo.com/v1/YKA5PsURFRl3WfUKYnUwYgju2S-WkrOZlfxAnbz1BdJN1T8io2bMwKl41moFVUHJWFvPtCDyqsIjJ gDyGBNMLWRnGE_XbMi7T93qpg/bcu.bmp[img]
"Im ready turnit upanoch"...

Anakin Skywalker
02-01-2003, 06:35 AM
My second, somewhat atavistic, response is that wherever in the world people start doing their little happy dances over this tragedy because of the nationalities of the people that died (American, Israeli, Indian) should be added to Bush's hit list.



Another reason to turn iraq into a parking lot

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Immigration Dude
02-01-2003, 06:36 AM
Pave it over and turn it into a Oil refinery/Shuttle landing area.

[img]http://attach4.groups.yahoo.com/v1/YKA5PsURFRl3WfUKYnUwYgju2S-WkrOZlfxAnbz1BdJN1T8io2bMwKl41moFVUHJWFvPtCDyqsIjJ gDyGBNMLWRnGE_XbMi7T93qpg/bcu.bmp[img]
"Im ready turnit upanoch"...

This message was edited by Immigration Dude on 2-1-03 @ 10:38 AM

Doogie
02-01-2003, 06:37 AM
I dont know about you but I would have a hard time being shot into space by a shuttle made in 1979.

Frankly sir, and I am sure to be getting yelled at my Mod for saying this to a newbie, are a FUCKING DIPSHIT. You obviously have no fucking intellect and only up until a week ago discovered the invention of fire you primitive fucking asshole!!!

EVERY, and and I can not emphasize the word any more, EVERY precaution is made to make ure that the Shuttle, while gradoise, expensive and outlived its usefullness, still is kept in one hundred and fifty percent shape. The shuttle is just as good as if it flew the first mission in 1981. You obviously do not know the painstaking details made to the ship to prepare it for EVERY mission and that it does not matter the age of the craft. The intense amount of attention paid to it are astronomical.

People I must quote Gus Grissom, a victim to his own tragedy in Apollo 1 (Along with Roger Chaffee and Ed White II, first American in space) in 1967. "If we die, we want people to accept it...We're in a risky buisness. The conquest of space is something is part of our God given Curiosity. For only man can relate his conquest of said space to other men."

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/doogie.gif>
ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
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This message was edited by Doogie76 on 2-1-03 @ 10:51 AM

JrZee Tom
02-01-2003, 06:49 AM
Lets not even dwell on what some backwards country may say or do about this tragedy. Just keep in mind that 7 peoples families are going through hell right now. All our support & prayers should be focused on them. <P>

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Doogie
02-01-2003, 06:50 AM
Thank you Jrzee Tom for kepping me focused, you are correct...7 people have died. Let us keep these people in our prayers, whatever your denomination may be.

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/doogie.gif>
ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
"Impossible is only the failure of imagination"
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Crippler
02-01-2003, 06:56 AM
People you have to realize that in over two hundred missions between the United States and Soviet Union/Russia that THE most dangerous part of the mission is the re-entry.

True, but according to Fox News, this is the first time there has ever been a problem upon reentry. Of course, the Fox crawl also stated that the craft was traveling at over 12,000 mile an hour. So, who knows if you can trust anything they report with ignorant info like that going out over live tv.

AND..at 10:54am, we have our first Baba-Booey phonecall to Dan Rather. "A piece of debris landed in the my backyard & it appears to be one of Baba-Booey's teeth." It will just never end, will it.

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This message was edited by Crippler on 2-1-03 @ 11:04 AM

Immigration Dude
02-01-2003, 06:59 AM
According to FoxNews:
Two POSSIBLE explainations.
1. Damage to heat tiles on wing durning take-off (enigneers gave ok once in space.)
2. Problem W/ oxygen lines?

[img]http://attach4.groups.yahoo.com/v1/YKA5PsURFRl3WfUKYnUwYgju2S-WkrOZlfxAnbz1BdJN1T8io2bMwKl41moFVUHJWFvPtCDyqsIjJ gDyGBNMLWRnGE_XbMi7T93qpg/bcu.bmp[img]
"Im ready turnit upanoch"...

reeshy
02-01-2003, 07:01 AM
Hear, Hear, Doogie-Well said, Sir!!!!!

<IMG SRC=http://www.rollingmania.com.ar/rs_2001/keith/dibujos/images/rich6.jpg>

Doogie
02-01-2003, 07:02 AM
this is the first time there has ever been a problem upon reentry


Not true, back in 1967, a Russian by he name of Vladimir Komarov died upon re-entry. However that had more to do with failed 'chutes not deploying. A reason why the United States went with the Shuttle Program to prove that re-usable craft were less hazardous and less expensive. The IRONY (Pay attention young padawan) is that the shuttle program is more expensive per mission than the Apollo program was per mission. The Shuttle program was intended to have many craft instead of just 5, the reason why the program is so expensive.

And what is horrible on top of all this is that the Russians are relativly out of the space program altogether, and the Chinese are about to shoot for the moon. Which means American Mission priorities get even more jumbled in the wake of this tragedy.

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/doogie.gif>
ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
"Impossible is only the failure of imagination"
<marquee behavior=alternate>The Jedi Master and an incredible hound dogga</marquee>

JiZ
02-01-2003, 07:03 AM
I think the iraeli was a suicide bomber What a dumb fuck! <P>

Please excuse the name...My Brooklynlivecam username seems to have been killed

spoon
02-01-2003, 07:29 AM
I been shifting through the site so long that I received the news through the board. Awful. Put out your flags and down to half mast. Makes you realize again what is really important. My sympathies go out to the families and friends.

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Nothing...i have nothing!

spoon
02-01-2003, 07:42 AM
They said it was traveling at over 6x the speed of sound at the time of break-up! Doogie, is this possible?

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Nothing...i have nothing!

Zoefus
02-01-2003, 07:44 AM
Some dipshit from the Howard Stern show called CBS & Dan Rather live claiming to be an eyewitness, said it looked like one of Bababooies teeth fell, then he called Dan an idiot. WHAT A TOOL!!! what the fuck is happening with this world........

Doogie
02-01-2003, 07:44 AM
Yes spoon it is very possible, they come in at that speed all the time. One time they landed when I was in Florida and you did hear tha large boom associated with the sound barrier being broken. So it happens all the time. All the news is doing is reporting the obvious. People, just like you did for O and A and Ron and fez, NASA needs your support to know that mankind MUST move on and continue with the exploration and the colonization of space. It is a tragedy but we must move on. Lets figure out went wrong and improve it...

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/doogie.gif>
ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
"Impossible is only the failure of imagination"
<marquee behavior=alternate>The Jedi Master and an incredible hound dogga</marquee>

Doogie
02-01-2003, 07:56 AM
People do not fall victim to the mass media, the shuttle ALWAYS breaks the sound barrier upon re-entry.

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/doogie.gif>
ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
"Impossible is only the failure of imagination"
<marquee behavior=alternate>The Jedi Master and an incredible hound dogga</marquee>

TheGameHHH
02-01-2003, 08:07 AM
This is a real tragedy. Wasn't the Challanger anniversary only a few days ago?

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Thanks ADF

Doogie
02-01-2003, 08:10 AM
Yes the Game, the shuttle tragedy was only a few days ago. It occured on January 28, 1986. It is also near to the date of the Apollo One Tragedy which occured on January 27, 1967.

We must not forget that only the United States and Russia are making commitments to the international space station (ISS) and the shuttle is necessary to keep the crews rotated. For Russia can not even afford to keep making their Soyuz capsules. A capsule which has been in production since 1966. The shuttle is necessary to keep the ISS running and to abandon it now would also be a tragedy. What we need is for a new shuttle design to come about, something which can lead to the colonization of the orbit of Earth and eventually the moon. And with a little luck and good fortune, Mars.

Like I stated earlier, NASA needs support more now than ever before. And also as stated earlier, just cause something doesnt happen often does not mean it cant happen.

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/doogie.gif>
ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
"Impossible is only the failure of imagination"
<marquee behavior=alternate>The Jedi Master and an incredible hound dogga</marquee>

Reephdweller
02-01-2003, 08:41 AM
Hmmm and they just said that there are people on the space station right now. What happens to them now? It'll probably be several months before they do another mission. Maybe Russia would send up a crew for them.

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JiZ
02-01-2003, 08:44 AM
There is always a Soyuz capsule docked at the ISS for emergency purposes if they need to leave for any emergency situation.

Please excuse the name...My Brooklynlivecam username seems to have been killed

F_ing_nutz
02-01-2003, 08:50 AM
I woke up and thought I was watching a replay of the Challenger shuttle explosion. I am stunned and saddened about the whole thing.

A.J.
02-01-2003, 08:53 AM
I dont know about you but I would have a hard time being shot into space by a shuttle made in 1979.


The shuttle was designed to be able to fly up to 100 missions. I believe this was Columbia's 28th or 29th. The shuttle has been constantly maintained and upgraded since it was built -- particularly after the "lessons learned" from the Challenger explosion. It's similar to what is done with commercial aircraft and U.S. naval vessels.

Doogie's points have been very accurate.

Some dipshit from the Howard Stern show called CBS & Dan Rather live claiming to be an eyewitness, said it looked like one of Bababooies teeth fell, then he called Dan an idiot.

CAPT Janks stikes again.

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A Skidmark production.

Doogie
02-01-2003, 08:55 AM
That is true JiZ...but the problem is that the Russian Republic can no longer even buld thos SOBs and they are cheap compared to the shuttle. However the whole ISS prgram needs the shuttle to make it function the shuttle carries many of the components and the previous administration cut the size of the crew down to save on money. Which is a travesty too...the original plan was to have a shuttle as an escape vehicle, but that would have of meant more money to a program that has done nothing but benefited mankind...

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/doogie.gif>
ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
"Impossible is only the failure of imagination"
<marquee behavior=alternate>The Jedi Master and an incredible hound dogga</marquee>

ChickenHawk
02-01-2003, 08:58 AM
This is horrible. And I think it
serves as even more proof that
we NEVER went to the moon.
Technology must be somewhere
around 25,000 times more
advanced today than it was in the
60's, yet somehow we're
supposed to beleive that, even
though we can't safely land a
shuttle today, we were able to
send people to the moon, walk
around on it, and come back
flawlessly, using the power of
Nintendo 64. It pisses me off.

My prayers are with the families
and friends of these astronauts.


<IMG SRC="http://wwfallon.50megs.com/chickenhawk.jpg">
"Just back 'n jack." -Ron
"It looks like brown Cool Whip." -Fez
FUCK VIACOM*FUCK INFINITY*FUCK BAD MUSIC

JrZee Tom
02-01-2003, 09:03 AM
Already on CNN there was a bit of discussion of maybe changing our space program, if manned space flight was too dangerous. I could rant on about how it is necessary myself, but a quote from the TV show Babylon 5 seems to cover more eloquently than I could - <P>
'Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics - and you'll get ten different answers. But there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on, whether it happens in a hundred years, or a thousand years, or a million years, eventually our sun will grow cold, and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us, it'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-tsu, Einstein, Maruputo, Buddy Holly, Aristophanes - all of this. All of this was for nothing, unless we go to the stars.' <P> <P>

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/jrztom1968/SigPic">



This message was edited by JrZee Tom on 2-1-03 @ 1:40 PM

Immigration Dude
02-01-2003, 09:08 AM
I will not argue with a beer drinker and patriot...
Thank You.

[img]http://attach4.groups.yahoo.com/v1/YKA5PsURFRl3WfUKYnUwYgju2S-WkrOZlfxAnbz1BdJN1T8io2bMwKl41moFVUHJWFvPtCDyqsIjJ gDyGBNMLWRnGE_XbMi7T93qpg/bcu.bmp[img]
"Im ready turnit upanoch"...

Doogie
02-01-2003, 09:11 AM
This is horrible. And I think it
serves as even more proof that
we NEVER went to the moon.
Technology must be somewhere
around 25,000 times more
advanced today than it was in the
60's, yet somehow we're
supposed to beleive that, even
though we can't safely land a
shuttle today, we were able to
send people to the moon, walk
around on it, and come back
flawlessly, using the power of
Nintendo 64. It pisses me off


Ok ChickenHawk, I like ya so I am not going to tear into you the way that I would like to. But I must say that your comments are very assinine. Just because you saw something on TV does not make it true.

Now like I stated earlier in this thread. This is a dangerous buisness with every aspect as dangerous as the next. As Chris Kraft, former flight director said "When a mission is going textbook, when all the objectives have been accomnplished perfectly, tragedy can strike right at the last possible moment".

Just because something has happened perfectly for countless amounts of times (reentry) does not mean that it always has to be perfect. Look at the over ONE HUNDRED text book landings by other shuttles. This is one in over one hundred attempts. How many people can you say did that with cars?? Or boats, or trains?? With those modes of transportations there is almost always an error everyday.

Now as for the moon thing...well you just find me or IM me and I will give you the lecture from hell on why we did acccomplish that program. My evidence far outweighs these asshole conpiracists (That right conspiracists, you heard what I said). Think about this, can you really keep a conspiracy of 500,000 plus quiet. And how many of these conspiracists are former employees who worked under Apollo?? I will leave it at that...

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/doogie.gif>
ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
"Impossible is only the failure of imagination"
<marquee behavior=alternate>The Jedi Master and an incredible hound dogga</marquee>

Tenbatsuzen
02-01-2003, 09:34 AM
One thing that upset me, tying this into Ron and Fez, that one of their sweepers - I'm not sure if it was a NY only or perhaps it was used on both feeds - was the clip of a person saying, "Obviously a major malfunction..." - that was taken from the Challenger accident. I brought it up to Ron, that it was kind of messed up to use a clip from a national tragedy like that for a comedy show, but I guess it was forgotten about.

Sad day. According to FARK, Debris from the shuttle was put up for sale on EBAY.



<img src="http://tenbatsuzen.homestead.com/files/franksig1.jpg">
Impossible is just a negotiation.

NewYorkDragons80
02-01-2003, 09:36 AM
My thoughts and prayers are with the families. This is without a doubt one of the saddest days in the history of space travel and aeronautics.

I am horrified that people can come on this board and spout political statements that are totally unrelated to this topic on such a day.

Some dipshit from the Howard Stern show called CBS & Dan Rather live claiming to be an eyewitness, said it looked like one of Bababooies teeth fell, then he called Dan an idiot.
I couldn't believe this when I watched it. Keep in mind that this guy must have really thought this through in order to first fabricate the story, then call in and get through the screener. In the end, Rather made a great save in my opinion.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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FTW
02-01-2003, 09:50 AM
something which can lead to the colonization of the orbit of Earth and eventually the moon. And with a little luck and good fortune, Mars.



Why colonize Mars? I always heard that Venus was kind of like Earth's sister planet, with a similar atmosphere and climate. So, why Mars and not Venus?

Sorry for straying off topic a bit.

Doogie
02-01-2003, 09:54 AM
Sorry my friend but you heard wrong. Venus is 400 degrees in the shade and rotates every 243, while it takes 234 days to revolve around the sun. So in other words what takes a day here on Earth is 24 hours would be 243 days on Venus. There are also massive acid rain storms on Venus in an atmosphere which is almost impenetrable.

Mars on the other hand is similar in that there is massive amounts of nitrogen and even the possibility of oxygen within the soil. So the theory is heat up Mars and we may be able to create a breathable atmosphere.

The only similarity between Earth and Venus are the size. But that is pretty much where the comparisons end. Mars on the other hand is smaller than earth yet have many of the components for sustaining life in abundance on Mars minus the oxygen.

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/doogie.gif>
ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
"Impossible is only the failure of imagination"
<marquee behavior=alternate>The Jedi Master and an incredible hound dogga</marquee>

Justice4all
02-01-2003, 09:59 AM
Jesus please carry their souls thru the gates of heaven. They have given the greatest gift, the gift that you stressed above all. They gave their lives for all mankind.
I cannot believe I wake up at noon and I did not find this out until mere MINUTES ago.
It seems that Nasa has only had problems in January with the Space Program.
17 years ago we sent a civilian to space in the hopes that we are closer to our dreams. And with the Israeli (I hope I spelt that right) it seems like it is happening again. We do not need this...not now...not ever again.
AND..at 10:54am, we have our first Baba-Booey phonecall to Dan Rather. "A piece of debris landed in the my backyard & it appears to be one of Baba-Booey's teeth." It will just never end, will it
John some people just DO NOT LEARN. Maybe if we send THOSE idiots in the shuttle and let them find their own way home then this would be a good thing.
'Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics - and you'll get ten different answers. But there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on, whether it happens in a hundred years, or a thousand years, or a million years, eventually our sun will grow cold, and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us, it'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-tsu, Einstein, Maruputo, Buddy Holly, Aristophanes - all of this. All of this was for nothing, unless we go to the stars.'
Well said Tom....perfect quote. All dreams do not happen flawlessly.
Why is it that the only way for many people to gain perspective is at a tragedy like this?
And Doogie could not me more right on...as we did with O and A and Ron and Fez...time to show support for not only our nation but our future. Let NASA know...that we will not falter in our quest to live amoung the stars.

<img src=http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/Justice4All.gif>

Thank you JerseyRich!!!!!

Tenbatsuzen
02-01-2003, 10:00 AM
Mars on the other hand is similar in that there is massive amounts of nitrogen and even the possibility of oxygen within the soil. So the theory is heat up Mars and we may be able to create a breathable atmosphere.


Howdy, Quaid!

:)



<img src="http://tenbatsuzen.homestead.com/files/franksig1.jpg">
Impossible is just a negotiation.

Doogie
02-01-2003, 10:05 AM
As of this moment, President Bush is addressing the nation. He stated that they "travled by rocket". Someone should tell him that they dont travel like Bugs Bunny would...

However he is bringing out many of the points that I am saying.

I just have to say one more thing...how many bad things can happen under one administration??

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/doogie.gif>
ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
"Impossible is only the failure of imagination"
<marquee behavior=alternate>The Jedi Master and an incredible hound dogga</marquee>

Alice S. Fuzzybutt
02-01-2003, 10:22 AM
Ok, naive question:

Commercial airlines carry black boxes. I understand minimizing weight on space flights is crucial, but wouldn't it be prudent to have a similar device on board the Shuttles? (I know, two tragedies in 17 years is a good "track" record in comparison to that of the commercial airline industry).

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Doogie
02-01-2003, 10:30 AM
Alice in your response to your question there is a similar device on board the shuttle and it will be found and details will be sorted out. Lets leave the investigation to the experts and say a prayer, regardless of your denomination, for the people involved in this tragedy and their families.

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Jackie Sloan
02-01-2003, 10:40 AM
People, the best site for infomation is Space.com

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ag
02-01-2003, 10:55 AM
AND..at 10:54am, we have our first Baba-Booey phonecall to Dan Rather. "A piece of debris landed in the my backyard & it appears to be one of Baba-Booey's teeth." It will just never end, will it
It just goes to show that some people have shit for brains by making a joke out of a national tragedy.These people , along with Stern should be shot to death. Its a shame that a piece of the shuttle didnt land on that asshole.As of this moment, President Bush is addressing the nation. He stated that they "travled by rocket". Someone should tell him that they dont travel like Bugs Bunny would...
Doogie, you say that as if you are surprised of The Presidents vocabulary. Is he a great leader of our free world? Yea I guess so. Is a inteligent in some ways and a tottal idiot in some? <b>YES</b>
Commercial airlines carry black boxes. I understand minimizing weight on space flights is crucial, but wouldn't it be prudent to have a similar device on board the Shuttles? (I know, two tragedies in 17 years is a good "track" record in comparison to that of the commercial airline industry).
Like Doogie said Im sure there is some type of device, maybe even more sophysicated than most comercial airliners have. The question is though, could it of have survived the explosion, and the heat not only from the explosion, but from re-entry. That shuttle was traveling at about 18mach or 12,000 miles an hour. I hope to think that our technology today would have such a device that could withstand this accident.

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This message was edited by ag1247 on 2-1-03 @ 3:11 PM

ag
02-01-2003, 11:06 AM
WTF?

This message was edited by ag1247 on 2-1-03 @ 3:10 PM

Tenbatsuzen
02-01-2003, 11:14 AM
Alice: There was a black box on Challenger... I believe, (seriously), that the last recorded words on Challenger was Dick Scobee yelling "Oh shit."



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bossjimbob
02-01-2003, 11:36 AM
Some dipshit from the Howard Stern show called CBS & Dan Rather live claiming to be an eyewitness, said it looked like one of Bababooies teeth fell, then he called Dan an idiot.


What kind of an asshole could make light of this tragedy? I almost threw a brick at the TV when that pickle-dick called in. People need to grow up.

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Bill From Yorktown
02-01-2003, 11:51 AM
a tru howard fan of course - the type of fan that Infinity wants listening to it's products.

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FTW
02-01-2003, 11:53 AM
(I know, two tragedies in 17 years is a good "track" record in comparison to that of the commercial airline industry).




Actually there are more commercial flights in one day than space shots in the last fifty years, so commercial flights actually have a better track record. Am I right Doogie?

ag
02-01-2003, 12:05 PM
They just said there is NO black box on board, however there are voice and data recorders that might or might not have survied the explosion

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FTW
02-01-2003, 12:08 PM
I thought voice and data recorders were the technical names for black boxes.

1%er

The Nature Boy
02-01-2003, 12:15 PM
This is horrible. And I think it
serves as even more proof that
we NEVER went to the moon.
Technology must be somewhere
around 25,000 times more
advanced today than it was in the
60's, yet somehow we're
supposed to beleive that, even
though we can't safely land a
shuttle today, we were able to
send people to the moon, walk
around on it, and come back
flawlessly, using the power of
Nintendo 64. It pisses me off.

My prayers are with the families
and friends of these astronauts.



In the spirit of a Fezzatorial,

"Fat Fuckin Idiot"

How about this. Since mission control can run the show and land the thing from the ground via radio control, what about the legitimate possibility that the frequency was hacked(by terrorists) and somehow monkeyed with the landing gear, and whatever pertinent heat sensors were rendered inactive, as per NASA. They didn't NEED surface to Air or even ICBM's, when they could hack the system.

Far fetched? Yes. Likely? No. But not impossible.




Bon Jovi Fan Since Day ONE!

TheMojoPin
02-01-2003, 12:25 PM
Actually there are more commercial flights in one day than space shots in the last fifty years, so commercial flights actually have a better track record. Am I right Doogie?

This is probably very true, but I'm sure a single manned space flight encounters more snags, problems and dangers than 1,000 "standard" commercial air flights.

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NewYorkDragons80
02-01-2003, 01:05 PM
This is horrible. And I think it
serves as even more proof that
we NEVER went to the moon.

Please don't be a dick.

I did hear that the Columbia had no black box. Even if it did, I don't see it being recovered. Black boxes are designed to be recovered underwater and even then there are instances when it is unreadable. If a black box was on board, I do not foresee it being in one piece, let alone readable.

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ChickenHawk
02-01-2003, 01:45 PM
In the spirit of a Fezzatorial,

"Fat Fuckin Idiot"

How about this. Since mission control can run the show and land the thing from the ground via radio control, what about the legitimate possibility that the frequency was hacked(by terrorists) and somehow monkeyed with the landing gear, and whatever pertinent heat sensors were rendered inactive, as per NASA. They didn't NEED surface to Air or even ICBM's, when they could hack the system.

Far fetched? Yes. Likely? No. But not impossible.
Wow, you're seriously retarded. You say "Fat fuckin' idiot" because I find the moon landing doubtful, but then you find it valid to start your own little terrorism conspiracy theory, which has less validity than anything I can imagine. Hypocrisy in it's finest form.

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MikeInFairfax
02-01-2003, 01:55 PM
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Immediate popular reaction in Baghdad on Saturday to the loss of the U.S. space shuttle Columbia and its seven-member crew -- including the first Israeli in space -- was that it was God's retribution.
"We are happy that it broke up," government employee Abdul Jabbar al-Quraishi said.

"God wants to show that his might is greater than the Americans. They have encroached on our country. God is avenging us," he said.

Iraqis are braced for a possible U.S.-led war to rid their country of any chemical, biological or nuclear weapons it may possess. Iraq denies it has such weapons.

Car mechanic Mohammed Jaber al-Tamini noted Israeli air force Colonel Ilan Ramon was among the dead when the shuttle broke up over the southwestern United States 16 minutes before its scheduled landing.

The 48-year-old Israeli astronaut was a fighter pilot in the Israeli air force. He was the youngest pilot in a team that bombed Iraq's nuclear reactor in 1981. Israel said the reactor was intended to develop nuclear weapons.

"Israel launched an aggression on us when it raided our nuclear reactor without any reason, now time has come and God has retaliated to their aggression," Tamini said.

There were no such signs of jubilation over the shuttle disaster in any of the Palestinian territories. The official response from the Palestinians was one of condolence.

"President (Yasser) Arafat and the Palestinian Authority offer their condolences to the six American families and the Israeli family who lost their loved ones in the catastrophe," Saeb Erekat, a senior Palestinian official and spokesman, told Reuters.

Erekat said Arafat had sent President Bush a message of condolences over the loss of the NASA space agency's shuttle. The United States, Israel's closest ally, is the chief Middle East peace broker.

The Nature Boy
02-01-2003, 02:02 PM
Wow, you're seriously retarded. You say "Fat fuckin' idiot" because I find the moon landing doubtful, but then you find it valid to start your own little terrorism conspiracy theory, which has less validity than anything I can imagine. Hypocrisy in it's finest form.



If you'd care to read the entire post, I certainly didn't proclaim that this was the case. Wheras you on the other hand are completely comfortable gleaning your information from the entertainment division of Fox Television.

So yes, you are a Fat Fuckin Idiot.

Bon Jovi Fan Since Day ONE!

ChickenHawk
02-01-2003, 02:05 PM
A) I'm not fat.
B) I never... repeat: NEVER saw this stupid "Fox special" you keep referring to.

You lose.

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Immigration Dude
02-01-2003, 02:06 PM
Amazing and sad.

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DC Reed
02-01-2003, 02:10 PM
Not too mention there are three people on the ISS, and since they have grounded all shuttle flights untill this has beeninvestigated, they will have to make with the provisions they have....but im sure we wont be hearing about space cannibalism anytime soon.

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Jackie Sloan
02-01-2003, 02:10 PM
Fight nice boys....have we gotten off the subject a little?

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INFOSTUD
02-01-2003, 02:22 PM
Let us mourn the lost of these brave heroes. Space exploration since the days of the Apollo missions has directly benefited man. If you don't believe that, then you know absolutely nothing about science and technology. <P> <P>

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LiquidCourage
02-01-2003, 02:22 PM
What a shame this is.
I bet the Israelis will be paranoid of sending any more astronauts into space, since this was the first for them.

Doogie
02-01-2003, 02:37 PM
Actually there are more commercial flights in one day than space shots in the last fifty years, so commercial flights actually have a better track record. Am I right Doogie?

Actually when you examine it, manned space travel has almost a ninety-nine plus percentage of success. We have never lost someone in space, even incluiding today. Todays tragedy was in the upper atmosphere. So actually there are better percentage rates of space travel than commercial traffic.

Not too mention there are three people on the ISS, and since they have grounded all shuttle flights untill this has beeninvestigated, they will have to make with the provisions they have....but im sure we wont be hearing about space cannibalism anytime soon

DCReed, there is a supply ship dropped off every month called "Progress". It is supplied by the Russians and drops off supplies to prevent as you would call cannibalism. The Russians have been using this supply tug since the Salyut days (First Russian Space Stations). So the crew will not starve. The problem is the ISS is not complete and the crew are changed to keep the workers fresh. Although the crew could theoretically live up there for up to three years at a time.
A second option would be to continue the building of Soyuz capsules and putting the crews up that way, the problem is that the needed components will not be delivered to the ISS

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This message was edited by Doogie76 on 2-1-03 @ 6:49 PM

Tenbatsuzen
02-01-2003, 03:03 PM
It's weird how when Challenger blew, everything STOPPED for a few days... but today, it's business as usual, all the sporting events etc. are going on. I guess 9/11 hardened us as a nation.



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Impossible is just a negotiation.

FiveB247
02-01-2003, 03:26 PM
Tenbat...I think it's a matter of people not caring in general terms about a NASA flight more then gettting tougher.

Ps...Wasn't "Jews in Space" a skit from History of the World?

Spittin mad
02-01-2003, 03:48 PM
You know who's REALLY scared? The three astronaughts still in the space station! You ever watch the last train of the night pull out of Penn?






Noooo!Wait!!! I'm the one who says things.

A.J.
02-01-2003, 06:10 PM
Commercial airlines carry black boxes. I understand minimizing weight on space flights is crucial, but wouldn't it be prudent to have a similar device on board the Shuttles? (I know, two tragedies in 17 years is a good "track" record in comparison to that of the commercial airline industry).


I know several people have posted that the shuttle has a "black box" aboard but it is important to remember that at Mission Control, there is also a real-time feed of data monitoring every system (and astronaut) aboard the spacecraft.

I'm curious to see if all this information along with the recovery of debris on land will be as useful in the same way it was in solving what happened on TWA Flight 800.

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DC Reed
02-01-2003, 06:19 PM
DCReed, there is a supply ship dropped off every month called "Progress".


I got my answer, thank you sir.

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The Jays
02-01-2003, 06:21 PM
... what was weird is that every time a shuttle goes up, you hear a lil bit about it on the news.... Endevour launched today, Discovery Launched today, Columbia lost today... you think about how many times you've heard the Columbia in the news... and then you wake up to hear "The Colombia's lost", that the Columbia blew up....

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Mike Teacher
02-01-2003, 06:36 PM
People you have to realize that in over two hundred missions between the United States and Soviet Union/Russia that THE most dangerous part of the mission is the re-entry. The thing we have ALWAYS taken for granted is that every United States Mission Since Project Mercury in 1959 there has ALWAYS been a successful recovery of every capsule since that project. <P>
Well, almost. <P>
On the second manned Mercury Mission we did indeed lose the capsule. It sank in the Atlantic when it filled with water after Gus Grissom left it. As for NASA doing absolutely everything possible to make sure every component is 100%, this is clearly impossible. While they might wish to be 100% confident in the machinery; history shows that we will forget things; often obvious ones, that will come back and bite us in the ass. NASA admitted serious flaws in the way the Shuttle Missions were prepped after the Challenger disaster. Heated debates between officials as to whether the Challenger should launch in the cold occurred the night before the launch; these are public record. <P>
The shuttle program, for reasons that were mostly not NASA's fault, was seriously flawed from the beginning. What NASA wanted it didn't get. They had to deal with funding cuts, pressures to succeed, and the fact that most people simply don't put a huge priority on space exploration. The shuttle doesn't really DO space exploration, but that's another topic. <P>
A sad day for all involved. <P>
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Friday
02-01-2003, 07:13 PM
This was a terrible way to wake up this morning....and an even sadder way to go to sleep tonight. It brought back sad memories from 16 years ago when my goals revolved around the heavens...

When any person joins the space program they recognize the risks...and lord they are great risks...but they take those risks and face great danger in order to further the cause of science and explore this incredible universe that we are such a small part of.

I will always remember, admire and respect these men and women for the dream they got to fulfill....and for the pride they took in their work...from their first training days....until the fateful day when they ascended into the heavens and truly learned to "touch the face of god"...

Carpe Diem
TLH

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fluffernutter
02-01-2003, 07:46 PM
This just made me remember the Challenger and how tragic that was. I cannot even begin to fathom, even though being inside the Shuttle, breaking the atmosphere at 12x (or more) the speed of sound and at 3000 - 4000 degrees F! That just boggles my mind and I respect our astronauts for all they have done to serach new frontiers in space.

Thank you Doogie for also being quite the educator on this topic.

My prayers to the familes and friends of the crew.

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NewYorkDragons80
02-01-2003, 08:32 PM
It is very eerie that the first Israeli astronaut who *happened* to be one of those to bomb the Iraqi Reactor dies during his mission while we prepare to attack Iraq. Probably not terrorism, but certainly a strange turn of events.

This just made me remember the Challenger and how tragic that was. I cannot even begin to fathom, even though being inside the Shuttle, breaking the atmosphere at 12x (or more) the speed of sound and at 3000 - 4000 degrees F! That just boggles my mind and I respect our astronauts for all they have done to serach new frontiers in space.
As horrific as it sounds, those extermities probably make for a painless and quick death.

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The Jays
02-01-2003, 10:55 PM
It is very eerie that the first Israeli astronaut who *happened* to be one of those to bomb the Iraqi Reactor dies during his mission while we prepare to attack Iraq


... almost as eerie as a firefighter daring Osama Bin Laden that he lives in Far Rockaway and to come get him, and then a month later a plane crashes in Far Rockaway....


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Doogie
02-01-2003, 11:04 PM
Thank you Doogie for also being quite the educator on this topic


You are very much welcome. I knew all that knowledge I have amassed over the last twenty years on the space program would come in handy some day. And to some of you whom I got a lil testy with, I am sorry. Just when it comes to the space program I feel very strongly and passionatly about it. My father has always preached against ignorance and he said that the best way to fight ignorance is through education. I am fortunate that I was able to spread that education to everyone here today.

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Spittin mad
02-02-2003, 12:53 PM
Doogie Thanks for all the information. I was wondering if any of the space imaging sattelites would have caught the image of the shuttle during it's approach. IKONOS and some other sats were able to show images from the Trade Center attack.(I think). Wouldn't Nasa have something watching the flight at critical points. Any info is appriciated. Keep up the good work. <P>






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Mxyzptlk
02-02-2003, 05:57 PM
First off, my condolences to the astronaut's families and NASA in general. Truely a terrible disaster.

I have been watching the coverage of the Columbia disaster and have a couple of observations...

There is no way (or extremely difficult) to view any tile damage on the bottom of the shuttle once in space.

There is no way to repair any tiles once in space.

We all know about the suspected foam piece that fell off on take off and hit the left wing. It was determined (by calculations, discussion, etc.) that it couldn't have caused any damage that would make the shuttle unworthy of reentry. A tough calculation to make considering they weren't 100% positive of what exactly shed off and hit the left wing.

I think this might lead to some sort of improvement of future flights. One, an easy way for the crew to accurately detect damage to tiles while in space. Two, be able to repair the tiles in space. I know I'm making a big assumption that the 'foam' damaged the tiles on take off, but there seems to be too many coincidences ('foam' hit left wing, sensors knocked out near left wheel well, temperature buildup detected in the left wing).

I just thought this was a big flaw while listening to NASA answering questions about the tiles. It might not be even physically possible to repair tiles in space, but to go into the reentry blindly seems a little suspect to me. I just hope for the people who made that call ('foam' couldn't have caused damage), that it wasn't the cause.


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This message was edited by Mxyzptlk on 2-2-03 @ 10:16 PM

TheMojoPin
02-02-2003, 06:17 PM
So if there is no way to fix the re-entry tiles once the shuttle is in space, what would they have done if this was the case and it WAS noticed while they were still up there? Would the astronauts have just abandoned the shuttle and taken refuge on the ISS?

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Cybersoldier
02-02-2003, 06:19 PM
The way it looked like the heat titles were damaged and during reentry the heat and pressure destroyed the shuttle. But it would takes weeks before anyone really knows what happened. At least before they died they live my dream going into space, see earth from orbit, I hope their deaths were quick and painless. This should have never of occurred

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Mxyzptlk
02-02-2003, 06:20 PM
So if there is no way to fix the re-entry tiles once the shuttle is in space, what would they have done if this was the case and it WAS noticed while they were still up there?


Good question. This is exactly my point. They really would have no options. This MAY be the 'fix' (a way to repair tiles) for future flights IF this was determined to be the cause. Again, I know this is all speculation at this point.

My thought was if they noticed the damage they could make it to the space station and wait for a ride back, but apparently they didn't have a docking module on this shuttle, and their orbit was too far away from the Space Station anyway.

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INFOSTUD
02-02-2003, 06:48 PM
Visit this website to learn about the amazing work that gets done on these Space Shuttle Missions. <P>
http://spaceresearch.nasa.gov/sts-107/ <P>

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TheMojoPin
02-02-2003, 06:49 PM
Alright, so they abandon the ship and take shelter on the ISS. What would they do with the shuttle? Could they somehow set it on a course away from the Earth before they left? Because otherwise you'd think the orbit would just deteriorate after a while and the thing would fall on top of something/somebody on the planet. Sure, it would probably break up like it actually did, but you say how the debris was crashing everywhere, and that was after the shuttle had been in a controlled landing descent operation.

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Doogie
02-02-2003, 06:51 PM
So if there is no way to fix the re-entry tiles once the shuttle is in space, what would they have done if this was the case and it WAS noticed while they were still up there? Would the astronauts have just abandoned the shuttle and taken refuge on the ISS?

Well Mojo, in answer to your question, Columbia is heavier than her three other counterparts. For every pound you bring into space you have to trade it off in fuel for thrust, that is why Columbia did not make a rendezvous with the ISS. She was just to heavy to get there in the first place. You have to realize that we have all seen movies like Armageddon too much. Once in space, a shuttle is basically out of fuel except for the benzyne which propels the craft for orbiting maneuvers.

The best part is that Columbia was lightened to make her accessible for the ISS. That is what her overhaul was all about. Lets do the safe scenario where they discovered the damage and did have to go to the ISS. That still meant EVA's for the shuttle crew. Dangerous EVA's between the ISS and Columbia. The distances were just too great and the risks too high. Lets just see what info emerges in the near future regarding this catastrophe.

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TheMojoPin
02-02-2003, 07:09 PM
Thanks, Doogie. You've made this thread a really fascinating and informative read...

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Reephdweller
02-03-2003, 02:50 AM
Interesting piece of news on this subject....

Photos show odd images near shuttle

A San Francisco amateur astronomer who photographs the space shuttles whenever their orbits carry them over the Bay Area has captured five strange and provocative images of the shuttle Columbia just as it was re-entering the Earth's atmosphere before dawn Saturday.

The pictures, taken with a Nikon 8 camera on a tripod, reveal what appear to be bright electrical phenomena flashing around the track of the shuttle's passage, but the photographer, who asked not to be identified, will not make them public immediately.

"They clearly record an electrical discharge like a lightning bolt flashing past, and I was snapping the pictures almost exactly . . . when the Columbia may have begun breaking up during re-entry," he said.

The photographer invited The Chronicle to view the photos on his computer screen Saturday night, and they are indeed puzzling.

They show a bright scraggly flash of orange light, tinged with pale purple, and shaped somewhat like a deformed L. The flash appears to cross the Columbia's dim contrail, and at that precise point, the contrail abruptly brightens and appears thicker and somewhat twisted as if it were wobbling.

"I couldn't see the discharge with own eyes, but it showed up clear and bright on the film when I developed it," the photographer said. "But I'm not going to speculate about what it might be."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/02/02/MN221641.DTL

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Mike Teacher
02-03-2003, 06:19 PM
I think; in the final analysis; the Columbia Orbiter, the oldest and heaviest of the shuttle fleet; just finally had enough and failed; either from loss of thermal tiles, perhaps due to whatever happened at liftoff; or that during one of the re-entry manuvers; it just couldn't take the incredible stress of re-entry. <P>
The shuttle program; with now only 3 orbiters left [discovery, atlantis, and endeavor] may well soon cease to exist; at the least in its present form. Where we go from here depends on too many factors to discuss here. <P>
Mike the Teacher www.miketheteacher.com <P>

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NewYorkDragons80
02-04-2003, 01:53 PM
Did anybody read Sunday's Newsday? They posted what remains of the human astronauts had been found; i.e. a skull. What an irresponsible and heartless news organization.

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FMJeff
02-04-2003, 02:19 PM
Here's my take on this whole thing...

haven't they found a better way of sending people into orbit than putting a shitload of explosives underneath them and lighting a fire?

couldn't they spend more time developing better technologies to defeat the pull of earth's gravity? what happened to magnets?

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Bill From Yorktown
02-12-2003, 11:27 AM
not that this was a laughing matter, but for some strange reason this quote is almost funny:

In Texas, where teams have recovered thousands of shuttle pieces, three cows and two deer with swollen tongues, swollen heads and stiff necks are being tested to see if they were somehow sickened by debris.


http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/02/12/sprj.colu.shuttle.wrap/index.html

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This message was edited by Bill From Yorktown on 2-12-03 @ 3:29 PM

Doogie
02-12-2003, 11:37 AM
Lets not lose sight of the fact that the name of the orbiter lost was Columbia, the same name of our federal district. A name that symbolizes peace, justice, and freedoms. I only hope that there is not going to be some scar coincidence in life associated with it.

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Reephdweller
02-14-2003, 02:29 AM
February 13, 2003
Investigators: Shuttle exterior was penetrated during descent

WASHINGTON - The space shuttle's skin almost was certainly pierced, allowing superheated air inside the left wing and possibly the wheel compartment during Columbia's fiery descent through Earth's atmosphere, investigators said Thursday.

In its first significant determination, the accident investigation board announced that heat damage from a missing tile would not be sufficient to cause unusual temperature increases inside Columbia minutes before it disintegrated. Sensors detected an unusual heat buildup of about 30 degrees inside the wheel well before the accident.

The board determined those increases were caused by the presence inside Columbia of plasma, or superheated air, with a temperature of roughly 2,000 degrees. It said investigators were studying where a breach might have occurred to allow plasma to seep inside the wheel compartment or elsewhere in Columbia's left wing.

The announcement focused renewed attention on possible catastrophic failures inside the wheel compartment that may have attributed to the Feb. 1 breakup that killed seven astronauts.

Officials are not sure where a hole might have opened in Columbia's skin, NASA spokesman James Hartsfield said. But he said the leading edge or elsewhere on the left wing, the fuselage or the left landing gear door were prime candidates.

"Any of those could be potential causes for the temperature change we saw," Hartsfield said. "They do not and have not pinpointed any general location as to where that plasma flow would have to originate."

The board dismissed suggestions Columbia's left landing gear was improperly lowered as it raced through Earth's atmosphere at more than 12,000 miles per hour. NASA disclosed earlier Thursday that a sensor indicated the gear was down just 26 seconds before Columbia's destruction.

If Columbia's gear was lowered at that speed - and in those searing temperatures as the shuttle descended over Texas from about 40 miles up - the heat and rushing air would have sheared off Columbia's tires and led quickly to the spacecraft's tumbling destruction, experts said.

Officials said they were confident that unusual sensor reading was wrong. Tires are supposed to remain raised until the shuttle is about 200 feet over the runway and flying 345 miles per hour.

Two other sensors in the same wheel compartment indicated the gear was still properly raised, they said.

While Columbia's piloting computers began almost simultaneously firing thrusters struggling to keep wings level, officials said a mysterious disruption in the air flowing near the left wing was not serious enough to suggest the shuttle's gear might be down.

The investigating board concluded that its research "does not support the scenario of an early deployment of the left gear."

NASA also confirmed that searchers near Hemphill, Texas, about 140 miles northeast of Houston, recovered what is believed to be one of Columbia's radial tires. A spokesman was not immediately sure which of the shuttle's six tires was found.

The tire was blackened and sustained a massive split across its tread, but it was impossible to know whether the tire was damaged aboard Columbia or when it struck the ground.

The board's announcement came one day after NASA released e-mails showing midlevel safety engineers in Virginia and Houston considered the risks of tires bursting inside Columbia's belly from heat damage.

Robert H. Daugherty, responding to an inquiry from Johnson Space Center, cautioned in one of those e-mails that damage to insulating tiles near the landing gear door could cause one or more tires inside to rupture, perhaps ending with "catastrophic" failures that would place the seven astronauts "in a world of hurt."



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