Define "Liberal" and "Conservative"

[HordeKing1]

Reading Coco's thread about Conservative and Liberal talk shows I observed a great disparity in what exactly people mean by the terms.

Rarely are people entirely liberal or entirely conservative. Rather they choose which issues appeals to them, no matter what side of the political spectrum it falls under.

I'm very much for woman's rights, and pro choice (more than 2 separate issues). I'm very much in favor of capital punishment. I very much believe that a war w/Iraq and others is inevitable and necessary and hope we go in full force. I very much despise Bush for (among other things) drasically cutting many needed social programs and providing a tax "cut" that will primarily benefit the rich. I'm for gun control. I'm for elimination of all drug possession laws. I'm a registered Republican.

So by your definition am I a liberal, conservative or perhaps (here's a new idea) a moderate?

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[Meatball]

Interesting point/question. Ive seen many journalists arguing this same issue. Either accusing or using a label of "liberal" or conservative to end the conversation and piegeon-hole their opponent into a narrow focus. They are used as a derogatory term. Those terms used to be limited to your political affiliations but american life has become much more complicated. Nothing wrong with being Conservative on crime, liberal on social issues relating to race and womens rights, and moderate on International issues. If that makes you a moderate, id say most people will call themselves "moderates" as well.

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This message was edited by Meatball on 2-3-03 @ 12:25 AM

[IrishAlkey]

I'm an Aries.

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[HordeKing1]

So how's it working out with you and Xena?

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[Death Metal Moe]

"Democrats suck and Republicans Blow"

-Lewis Black

I don't think one side is 100% right, but I do find myself identifying with Conservative Republicans on may topics.

I Differ with them on Abortion and Religion mostly. I'm pro choice and while I don't like the ACLU's religious Witch Hunt, I also DON'T want religion slipping it's way into our government.

As for Social Programs, get a fucking job.

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[EQ]

HK,

You are my
favorite Republi-Crat.

Now go to sleep. It's a School Night, dammit.

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[TheMojoPin]

Define "Liberal" and "Conservative"

Ohtay.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Patches]

I usually just find myself agreeing with Bill O'Reilly, whatever the hell he is.

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-FF Mike Moran</b>

[TheMojoPin]

He's an idependent. He veers waaaaaaaay left AND waaaaaay right on various issues. People just assume he's a conservative mouthpiece because he's on Fox News...I actually like the guy and don't mind his radio show on when I'm at work or stuck in the car, I just think he's a worse interviewer than Arsenio.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[rmw]

I agree with HordeKing. I am a Republican. But I am also at odds with them on several issues. <P>
For one, the legalization of drugs should be given serious consideration. <P>
As well, I depart from Republicans on issues pertaining to civil liberties (with one exception: abortion). <P>
You get the point. <P>
I am often uneasy being a Republican. But where else do I turn? I am certainly not a Democrat. And though I believe many of my positions put me in the libertarian catagory, I do believe government has an important role in our daily lives (I am here thnking about the road I drove into to work on today, etc...). <P>
So how do you choose to affiliate yourself with a political party? I add up all the issues that the Republicans represent and by defualt that is where I belong (sort of). <P>
What options are there? We have seen what happens when thrid party canidates run. And I believe in the bicameral system. <P>

[Coco]

Since my thread related mostly to radio, I will just concentrate on what I consider the differences there.

I like to listen to stations like WBAI (a station that I consider liberal) because I consider it not to be restricted in scope on different views on things than other radio stations.

I like to hear very diverse views on things like alternative medicine, or perhaps on music (even in different cultures).

Most importantly, different political views that are not restricted to what the management at a station or its shareholders "deem appropriate", i.e., views on our interaction and treatment of Cuba (maybe even from a Cuban's point of view) or our testing of bombs in Vieques or the treatment of prisoners in jail. Stuff that other stations either don't want to talk about or are restricted in some way of talking about.




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This message was edited by Coco on 2-3-03 @ 12:34 PM

[zha zha]

The problem with being a 'moderate' of either party right now in this political climate is that this administration is being controlled by a zealous,reactionary, religious right party with practically no corrective system of checks and balances in place. This essentially sucks no matter what your beliefs on individual issues.

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[zha zha]

sorry i posted same thing twice

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This message was edited by zha zha on 2-3-03 @ 1:15 PM

[rmw]

zealous,reactionary, religious right party with practically no corrective system of checks and balances in place

Soooo, then the Democrats are what? A liitle reason and thoughtfulness goes a long way.

What example are you willing to show that back up this statement of yours:zealous,reactionary, religious right party with practically no corrective system of checks and balances in place

[zha zha]

The Democrats are pussies since you asked.

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[zha zha]

Have you really got time for all the examples I can cite? Let's start out with this one, Bush just quietly appointed a Bob Jones University 'Rapture'Republican in a prominent position to the presidential council on AIDS. He is a religious right fanatic who believes all gays are sinners who can be saved through religion (his religion). He has AIDS himself but got it from his wife when she got a tainted blood transfusion. So he's not a sinner, he got his disease the morally respectable way. He has said as much. There are hundreds of other examples. Also under the radar, Bush just retracted a descision to stop sending federal funds for the Confederate flag to be flown at some prominent cemetary in the south. Why in hell do we still need to have a Conferate flag hung anywhere in this country, didn't we fight that bloody war to free the slaves 140 years ago. Doesn't the confederate flag stand for something reactionary. No wonder theres not a single Black republican in office. I could go on and on with many more serious examples like websites for teens set up to explain sex education issues mysteriously having information about condom use deleted from the sites only to be replaced with abstinence makes the heart grow fonder rhetoric, a last minute ammendment tacked on to the Homeland Security bill that cynically protects a big pharmaceutical company from lawsuits resulting from children being harmed by routine vaccines required by law and leaves families no redress if there children are harmed by these vaccines. What the hell does that have to do with Homeland Security. It's not referring to dangerous smallpox vaccines that might have to be administered for security reasons, it refers to vaccines that have mercury preservatives that are probably causatively related to millions of increased cases of childhood autism. Read the fine print, this is government as hegemony, oligarchy whatever you want to call it. In the immortal words of Leona Helmsly, 'Who cares about the little people."

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[Death Metal Moe]

You STILL didn't back up your statement.

I LOVE people who call Bush the next HITLER and then have very vague reasoning as to WHY he's so bad.

Maybe because you let one of his opponents form your opinion for you?

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[Patches]

I just think he's a worse interviewer than Arsenio.


Well, there is a reason for that. He believes he is 100 percent right all the time, so what is the point in listening to a differing opinion? I actually enjoy that level of arrogance and emulate it in real life.

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-FF Mike Moran</b>

[zha zha]

I am anything but vague, go back to my lengthy post.

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[zha zha]

Speaking of Hitler, here's a chilling quote from one of his buddies.
'Naturally the common people don't want war, but after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifist for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

Herman Goering (Hitler's Reichs-Marshall)

Sound familiar?



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[Teenweek]

Liberals hate everything entertaining and are anti american. Liberals see Bush as the enemy and Saddam hussein as a hero. Liberals say 9/11 is our fault. Liberals say it is the governemnts job to give everyone someplace to live regardless whether that person is from the state or not. Liberals are anti death penalty and pro taxes. They consider you rich if you have a combined income of 60K or more.

[TheMojoPin]

Well, there is a reason for that. He believes he is 100 percent right all the time, so what is the point in listening to a differing opinion? I actually enjoy that level of arrogance and emulate it in real life.

So do I, except I appreciate it MORE and BETTER and YOU sir, are a douchebag. But that's just me...I'll let you have the last word...

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[zha zha]

Who are you calling a liberal?

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[zha zha]

If you actually think that's what liberals stand for you are seriously uninformed. I consider myself somewhat liberal about some issues, moderate about others, with a dash of conservativism thrown in about other issues. I think Saddam Hussein is a madman who needs to be whacked. Nevertheless, firstly, bring me the head of Osama Bin Laden! Oh and by the way, what are we going to do about North Korea? As Rummy says, we can fight a two front war. Why not a three front war, four fronts, five, let's try five, do I hear 6. And while we're at it let's kill all the French, snotty effete bastards. Let's roll.........

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[zha zha]

If you actually think that's what liberals stand for you are seriously uninformed. I consider myself somewhat liberal about some issues, moderate about others, with a dash of conservativism thrown in about other issues. I think Saddam Hussein is a madman who needs to be whacked. Nevertheless, firstly, bring me the head of Osama Bin Laden! Oh and by the way, what are we going to do about North Korea? As Rummy says, we can fight a two front war. Why not a three front war, four fronts, five, let's try five, do I hear 6. And while we're at it let's kill all the French, snotty effete bastards. Let's roll.........

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[zha zha]

My evil twin keeps posting twice.

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[Teenweek]

i have no problem dropping a bomb on the french. fucking conceited whiny surrendering faggots.

[Patches]

I'll let you have the last word


hehe...I forgot about that. Half the time after giving "the last word" he lets the other person speak, then looks into the camera with a "What are you an idiot?" look on his face before going to commercial. The other half of the time he lies. He gets the last word, and basically says "What are you an idiot?" Brilliant.

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<b>Osama Bin Laden, you can kiss my royal Irish ass! And I live in Rockaway. And this is my face, bitch!
-FF Mike Moran</b>

[zha zha]

They are seriously in need of deodorant as well.

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[zha zha]

<img src=http://www.studiomontclair.org/images/budgiemadonnasmaller.jpg

This message was edited by zha zha on 2-3-03 @ 3:07 PM

[zha zha]

It's so nice to know that Americans, no matter what their differences about a variety of issues can all get behind hating the French. It is comforting to know this.

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This message was edited by zha zha on 2-3-03 @ 3:11 PM

[jamesdiggy]

I get my political inspiration from a different source. Usually it's one potato-two potato.


The Saddest Boy to ever hold a Martini

This message was edited by jamesdiggy on 2-3-03 @ 4:14 PM

[DarkHippie]

Liberals hate everything entertaining and are anti american. Liberals see Bush as the enemy and Saddam hussein as a hero. Liberals say 9/11 is our fault. Liberals say it is the governemnts job to give everyone someplace to live regardless whether that person is from the state or not. Liberals are anti death penalty and pro taxes. They consider you rich if you have a combined income of 60K or more
I'm about as liberal as they come and I don't agree with any of that (sans anti-death penalty) Neither do any liberals I know. i'm not sure who this "liberal boogie man" is that you think preaches these things or where you'll find him. Have you tried under the bed? They always hide under the bed.

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[Rizzo]

Liberals = Jackasses
Conservatives = Fat bastards

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[TheMojoPin]

Liberals hate everything entertaining and are anti american. Liberals see Bush as the enemy and Saddam hussein as a hero.

Let me tell you this...when you look out the window and wave at Mighty Mouse bounding by...HE'S NOT REAL.

Calm down, sillybits...

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[Teenweek]

examples are Susan Sarandon, Martin Sheen, Barbara Streisand to name a few.

[DarkHippie]

examples are Susan Sarandon, Martin Sheen, Barbara Streisand to name a few.
yeah I'm sure the 3 of them circle jerk to saddam hussein every night. and you picked 3 entertainers to be "against everything entertaining?" what do you like, quilting bees?

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[Teenweek]

That was for the quote that Bush is the enemy and Hussein is not. Hillary Clinton is another one. During the state of the union address, I saw yawning, smirks, non clapping and assholes sitting down. The people who hate things entertaining are the same group that had O&A thrown off the air. IE the church, the liberal media, the jackasses who sued the WWE for indecency. The point about every homeless person regardless of where they are from in the country should get a house, is this bitch judge in New York who was profiled in the Daily News about 2 weeks ago

[zha zha]

Teenweek ,are you a teen. You sound very young. Only the young can generalize so myopically. Are you eating your accutane instead of applying it topically. No one ever said Bush was the enemy and Hussein was not. Nowhere that I read anyway. Saddam Hussein is a scumbag who deserves to eat sand and die but he is only scumbag No#2 right now. Bring me the head of Osama Bin Laden. By the way, I'm a 'liberal'. Susan Sarandon is just idealistic, doesn't make you a bad person.

[Teenweek]

I am 30 in the finance industry and read the newspapers everyday. Did you see that rally in Washington. It was not a anti-war rally. It was an anti-Bush rally. I read and hear the comments, Bush is an idiot, Bush did not win the election, Bush can't speak properly, Bush only got into Yale because of his father. Bush's tax plan sucks because it helps everyone. I see Shania Twain and Viggo Mrtenson and fashion models wearing anti Bush shirts. It is a fucking joke. Maybe I am just making all this stuff up.

[zha zha]

I'm glad you read the newspaper everyday, so do I. If you do you know that there are lots of people of all political persuasions saying and doing all kinds of stupid things all the time. Not only some liberals have cornered the market on stupidity, arrogance, and cluelessness. Anyway at least we can all agree on one thing, the French suck. Seeya

[zha zha]

Another question Teenweek, do you have children? I have three small children and let me tell you it really changes your perspective on the world. Talk of war, however necessary or unnecessary it might be depending on your viewpoint, talk of war is terrifying when you have children. Especially since you don't know what other catastrophic things might happen as a result of going to war. War, if you've studied history, is very unpredicatable. Any number of really lousy repercussions could be waiting in the wings for us if we go to war. This is not to say I don't think removing Hussein isn't necessary, or desirable. I do think it's both, There are actually terrorists out there though who can't wait for us to attack Iraq. They want us to attack Iraq even though they say otherwise. It would just give them the excuse they need to say to the world. See, here's proof, the Americans are monsters, let's really make them suffer now. If I had no kids, I would take my chances. I might say, take care of every country that's a threat. It's quite sobering to think of innocent children being killed , my own or anybody elses. As a mother, this is why it's most difficult for me to think of war as the only solution. I don't hate Bush, I didn't vote for him and I don't think he entered office in a legitimate way but I think he's paid for that by inheriting quite a difficult time of it on his watch. I don't envy him the descisions he has to make. I think he has advisors who are extremists (except for Powell and maybe Condi)and I think he worries too much about pleasing them and gives them too much say in what his descision making process is. Donald Rumsfeld has way too much power.I think Bush genuinely wants to do something about terrorism. I think some of the people he's listening to are not giving him the greatest advice. I think his domestic policies blow. I think the economy is in a tailspin. I think we have to be honest about all of our enemies, not just Iraq. Saudi Arabia is a human rights nightmare country, and yet we never even attempt to make them accountable. Maybe the plan is to take over Iraq oil wells (after all we helped build them),and also remove Hussein from power, but as a side benefit wield some power over our Saudi 'friends' who have control over so much of our fuel. I would have a lot of respect for Bush if he admitted, when talking about Iraq, that oil was a consideration in the mix. Do you ever read Thomas Friedman's editorial column in the Times, he spent 5 years in Lebanon during the most tumultuous of times, 5 years in Israel, he knows the middle east well and he always makes sense to me when he writes about that part of the world and our complex relationships with it. Anyway I know, I'm supposed to post funny things so I'll shut up. Just keep in mind that sometimes the people you are calling names and generalizing about defy those categorizations. Defining liberal and conservative is what this thread is supposed to be about anyway. I think those terms are somewhat blurred. There are very few purely liberal or purely conservative people that I talk to. There are alot of moderates. There are also many parents, regardless of their politics, who are genuinely frightened about what's going on in the world and protecting their children is by nature their first consideration. Maybe you already have kids, if you do, you'll understand me instinctively. If you don't you'll find out.

[Teenweek]

that is the one thing that can combine all the races and all political parties that yes the french suck.

[JerryTaker]

During the state of the union address, I saw yawning, smirks, non clapping and assholes sitting down.


The Republicans used to do the same thing during Clinton's addresses, this is nothing new, nor is it exclusive to either party


The people who hate things entertaining are the same group that had O&A thrown off the air. IE the church, the liberal media, the jackasses who sued the WWE for indecency.


Christ in a convertable, how brainwashed are you? The catholic leauge, the FCC, and CBS/Viacom (a huge corporation) led to O&A being taken off the air, these are all entities that have ALWAYS been in bed with the republicans, and whatever right-wing paper you've been reading that tells you all this crap you're spewing is leading us straight down the path pre-ordained by Orwell...

oh and as far as bush being the enemy and Osama being a hero, how about the Republicans always saw Bill Clinton as the enemy, and people like Strom Thurmond as heroes...

come back to the middle, people, before its too late to get our freedom back...


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[Rizzo]

Please, O&A got O&A thrown off. It happened at a Catholic Church. If it happened at a synagogue, not only would have O&A lost their job, but the entire station would be off the air and most likely all stations owned by Viacom. They'd be screaming anti-semite. (spelling, sorry)
Major media outlets are primarily liberal. Its a fact.

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[Teenweek]

I have a baby due in May. Yes oil does have a lot to do with it. We already have armed forces by the oil fields in case Iraq wants to destroy them. Oil has gone up on an average of 37 cents since last year. However, it is not all about oil. Many people seem to forget 9/11. I do not want this to happen again. I do not want Hussein doing whatever he wants, going behind the un's back and make nuclear and chemical weapons. Ny was a atarget and still is a big target. I want all these fucks in a bodybag. I do not want to have to worry for my kids and my life everyday fearing an attack. Obviously the U's and great britain are the only ones in the world with the balls to stand up and face these terrorists.

[JerryTaker]

What is up with you people? I could tell you the sky was green, and your retort would be "the media's all liberal" CNN is liberal, yes, I hated their reports to make us feel sorry for the "poor afghani citizens" when we were bombing them, meanwhile they couldn't avoid showing the reality of having to hide from the Afghan government. Fox and Rupert Murdoch is way over to the right. The problem with them is they push this "fair and balanced" crap, and too many people buy into it, again, we have conservatives trying to convince people that "our way is the only way"

It seriously scares me that so many of you people are buying into this, it makes me wonder if I'll see a totalitarian government here in the states in my lifetime, under the guise of "national security"



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[NewYorkDragons80]

It's a difficult question. In simple terms, it is the liberals who want change and conservatives who want to keep things the way they are. However, on abortion, it is the conservatives who are pro-life and the liberals who want to uphold Roe v. Wade.

You can't even say that liberals want all liberties. For example, liberals want stricter gun laws. In the eyes of those who are anti-gun control, it is liberals who restrict their freedoms.

It's a tough call to define these complicated terms

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[Rizzo]

Fox and Rupert Murdoch is way over to the right. The problem with them is they push this "fair and balanced" crap, and too many people buy into it, again, we have conservatives trying to convince people that "our way is the only way"


Palease. Listen, FOX will present a story, say Tax cuts. They will have someone on who is for it, and someone on who is against it. They each get their chance to say why it will or wont work. Thats fair and balanced. Let us decide. To often, media only reports what they want to report, not the actual event or all of the facts. They will give you one side and say here's the story. Which, by definition, is liberal. Everytime someone comes along who might be pro-life and might believe in god, all the liberals start crying saying its the end of the world. My god people. Sorry for saying god. Didnt want to offend anyone.

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[TheMojoPin]

Palease. Listen, FOX will present a story, say Tax cuts. They will have someone on who is for it, and someone on who is against it. They each get their chance to say why it will or wont work. Thats fair and balanced. Let us decide.

Where are the actual news reports on Fox? For most of the day, it's these "specialty" programs you talk about, which are not news programs...they're talk shows. It's like the obnoxious uselessness of "Crossfire"...all day long. Fair and balanced is simply reading the news and telling us what happened...not what SHOULD happen, or what should have had happened...and there's not a single news network in the US that does that.

Like I said, give BBC News a shot. It's about the best you can get...

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[TheMojoPin]

My god people. Sorry for saying god. Didnt want to offend anyone.

This statement caters to the extreme liberals, NOT all liberals. This is like me being a dope and assuming Pat Robertson and Strom Thurmond and the guys that shoot abortion doctors represent most conservatives. It's simply not true. What IS a pretty much universal issue with liberals is the opposition of religion being directly involved and interferring with our government and schools. Seperate church and state, that's the way I see it. The problem with this is that a lot of people on the "other" side think I'm attacking God and Christianity as a WHOLE, and not the just the issue of religion being integrated with our federal process.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

The problem with this is that a lot of people on the "other" side think I'm attacking God and Christianity as a WHOLE, and not the just the issue of religion being integrated with our federal process.
The problem is not with you personally, but there are some liberals who will claim that they are against religion in public schools and then encourage elementary school students to take part in education on Islam following 9/11. I'm not trying to get God taken out of the pledge of allegiance, but if it was I really wouldn't make a big deal about it since I know what my beliefs are. Maybe that's just because I go to Catholic School and pray 9 times a day anyway.

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[TheMojoPin]

The problem is not with you personally, but there are some liberals who will claim that they are against religion in public schools and then encourage elementary school students to take part in education on Islam following 9/11. I'm not trying to get God taken out of the pledge of allegiance, but if it was I really wouldn't make a big deal about it since I know what my beliefs are. Maybe that's just because I go to Catholic School and pray 9 times a day anyway.

Exactly. I don't view the presence of "God" in, say, the pledge or swearing someone in as anything more than a formality...but FORMAL teaching of ANY religion in our schools is wrong. Period.

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[HordeKing1]

"God" has no place in the Pledge of Allegience. It was not orginally there, but rather inserted to show our "superiority" to those "Godless Commies."

The only way God should be in the pledge is if we nail a copy of the constitution to every crucifix, star of david, etc.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

The only way God should be in the pledge is if we nail a copy of the constitution to every crucifix, star of david, etc.
If there was a mention of the Constitution in the founding of Christianity or Judaism, then that would be an appropriate analogy. On the other hand, God is in the Declaration of Independence, which is an integral document in the founding of this nation. A vague reference to Him in the Pledge of Allegiance does not recognize a religion.

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"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 2-6-03 @ 9:10 PM

[HordeKing1]

I understand what you're saying but I have a different perspective.

The Constitution does not refer to specific religion but the first Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

Any reference to God by the government, especially in something so closely tied to national identity, pride, and events, such as the pledge of allegience is an endorsement of the idea of religion, which is supposed to be completely separate from any government connection.

Even though the pledge doesn't specify which God they're referring to, it's still a government endorsement of the idea of religion and as such should be removed and the pledge restored to it's original form which had no reference to god as is proper.

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