NATO

[mason]

Hi, hope this is not being disucssed in another thread. What do you think about the NATO decision today? Do any of you think it will deter Bush from attacking Iraq? Do we, Bush, need the backing of NATO? Or can we go it alone?

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[Bergalad]

Sad but expected. NATO, like the UN, now runs the risk of becoming obsolete. When a founder nation invokes the mutual defense clause, it should be answered immediately. When a country cannot count on it's fellow members to protect it, then what is the purpose of the alliance? Even worse, Turkey only asked for planning to begin, not even deployment of equipment and they still balked. Another question is why really do France and Germany (and Waffle-land) object to aiding Turkey? Why also are these same nations opposed to Turkey concerning the EU? Racist anyone?

[FiveB247]

God...Ber..you don't quit. NATO, simply put is the US's back-up when the UN is ignored by US politicians. Every time we encounter NATO bombings and orders, it is usually as the US is ignoring UN solutions, orders and laws. And NATO members in the EU not wanting war is the fact that they are the ones to be terrorized and bombed. They have a lot more to lose then to gain. While Bush and the US squabble with no calls for their war plunge, No bombs will be landing here...not on our soil. It's out of range. And the war on terrorism has nothing to do with it. Thus far, it has been oversimplified and success has been overrated. Colin Powell, said half a year ago, "al Quada and the Bin Laden was no longer a threat and incapable of serious harm"....now lets fast forward to yesterday..."Code Orange". Politicians in general and our government give us BS and simply ignore the things they say. They spew out rhetoric, catch phrases and anything necessary to access their interests and goals. And for you to ignore such simple oversights and let them slide is playing along with such lies and deception.

[Bergalad]

Five, I love reading your posts. Someday I hope to find something like the Rosetta Stone to help everyone decifer your heiroglyphs. These diatribes may impress your friends on the short bus, but they really don't make any sense whatsoever. I was talking about the validity of NATO in the face of the refusal of aid by member nations to another member nation. Why did you see that as another opportunity to bash the US again? Again, no facts, just more of the same rants.

[FiveB247]

Berg....the more you post, I begin to wonder if you reread Bush's speeches and rewrite them.

And quite frankly, where and what type of qualifications do you have or know of, to simply pass off such ideas and notions? Do you have a degree? Read books? Can you read? What?

The US and NATO has, and usually acts when the UN rejects notions and actions the US wishes to pursue. It is the US's version of solidarity within nations going along with its actions.

NATO members rejecting US actions is a huge deal and should simply put the Iraq situation in perspective. If the US knew of such solid proof towards Iraq, the UN would advocate such actions, NATO would advocate actions...insteand..what is being said? Do not pursue war due to the fact of diplomatic solutions. And the US continues to bang the drums of war until we will act unilaterally and in our own self interest. Just as usual.

[Bergalad]

And quite frankly, where and what type of qualifications do you have or know of, to simply pass off such ideas and notions? Do you have a degree? Read books? Can you read? What?

I am quite confident that my 'qualifications' are more than a match for you. Don't embarrass yourself. I am not pushing an agenda, only leaving my thoughts.
NATO members rejecting US actions is a huge deal and should simply put the Iraq situation in perspective. If the US knew of such solid proof towards Iraq, the UN would advocate such actions, NATO would advocate actions...insteand..what is being said?

Again, it is 3 nations who are opposing the rest of NATO. That means that out of 19 countries, only 3 are against assisting Turkey. So yes, it is a huge deal that 3 nations in a small minority subjugate the will of NATO. Shocking that 2 of those countries would suffer huge losses in contracts with Iraq should disarmament commence...

[FiveB247]

Embarrass myself? I think not. And you just answering the question by replying "I'm just leaving my thoughts"...we'll that's exactly what they are. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion...but what separates many of them is what they are based upon.

I have a BS in Political Science with a specialization in International Affairs as well as Human Rights. I have also taken several Graduate courses relating to International Diplomacy, Globalization as well as the UN. I've worked at Amnesty International. I read out of interest; books, articles and also research various issues in all of these subjects. So once again I ask..what is your opinion based upon? If you have such facts, degree's and understandings..so be it. And if you just casually follow politics..so be it. But in the realm of validity, fact and basis, such things are held accountable and do matter when simply overstating ones agenda as you call it.

[Bergalad]

If you have such facts, degree's and understandings..so be it. And if you just casually follow politics..so be it. But in the realm of validity, fact and basis, such things are held accountable and do matter when simply overstating ones agenda as you call it.

If this is the type of grammar and spelling your college taught, I would ask for a refund. I'm not here to hype myself, just talk. I know what my credentials are, and I certainly don't have to defend myself to you. Like I said in the other thread, I don't see the reason to go back and forth with you. It's someone else's turn to walk the dog.

[FiveB247]

Excuse my grammar, I wasn't planning on handing a thesis to the likes of you.

Anyways, So with another non-answer...you have no credentials? There's no harm in saying if you do or do not. Everyone has an opinion and is entitled to one. But don't claim yours is the one that is fact over mine if you have no basis...and by the sounds of some of your replies, messages and lack of basis for such notions..it's becoming apparent.

One should never mock what you do not know.

[Bergalad]

It's alright. Sloppy grammar, sloppy mind, right?

Not sure why you persist in trying to get my background out of me. Guess you base your worth on what you have read. Love me daddy indeed.

[FiveB247]

What in the hell are you talking about? Base my worth? Love me daddy? We were talking of policies, beliefs and such. Just like many of your other posts, you lack rational thought.

[bigone1153]

besides the obvious economic setbacks to both france and germay (and to a lesser extent china and russia) the main reason so many nations are hesitent to support a military incusrion in iraq is their objection to unilateral movements by the US as the world's only leading superpower.... they resent the might, wealth, and self-re;liance of the US and its hegomonic presence in golobal affairs.....also they feel it might set a dangerous precident of US unilateral military incursions left virtually unchecked...that is why the US is so bent on getting UN support, it is not neccessary to defeast Iraq (which could be done swiftly by vastly superior US forces), rather it is prudent for other world affairs such as maintaining harmony in an ever expanding golbal eenviornemnt where interdependance is rampant...plus the French are pussies

long live 1968 bill murray

[FiveB247]

Bigone...I'm just glad you're not Bergalad...haha...

It is very true that the US does not want to further isolate themselves from the notion of empire and world power.

[Bergalad]

Thank god. Someone with a real opinion. Thank you for joining me in reality Bigone.

[Bergalad]

It is very true that the US does not want to further isolate themselves from the notion of empire and world power.

Way to spin what he said.

[fluffernutter]

FiveB247 and Bergalad with exception to your bickering and insults towards each other, you are both excellent witth bringing your point(s) across. I love to see that. I am retarded when it comes to wording myself politically but I know what I think but just can't explain it with out SOUNDING retarded. I would love to hear you guys along with some other on ethe board here in a roundtable discussion. It is sure a lot better that the hot-air government fed BS and the lies and speculation of our shameful National News Networks. Where the HELL is MojoPin int his discussion? He usually chimes in.

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[reeshy]

Does anyone know how Brittany Spears feels about all of this?????? She would know what to do!!!!!

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This message was edited by reeshy on 2-11-03 @ 5:28 AM

[TheMojoPin]

Where the HELL is MojoPin int his discussion?

I'm not touching this one with a ten-foot dink.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[FiveB247]

I didn't spin anything. That is simple fact and I'm sure that "bigone" would agree that is why the US is being causious of its actions (due to its reflection of control and power in the world).

[LiquidCourage]

There doesn't seem to be much purpose in NATO anymore now that the USSR is gone.

[FiveB247]

So then why does it exisit? And why has it since grown after the USSR has fallen? There are logical reasons why such organizations are still wielding power.

[Bergalad]

I'm not touching this one with a ten-foot dink.

You might be the smartest one on here.

[LiquidCourage]

I don't know.
The reason it was started was to prevent any kind of USSR attack.
I don't know what it's supposed to do now, especially since Britain is the only one in there with any sort of military anyway.

[TheMojoPin]

I don't know what it's supposed to do now, especially since Britain is the only one in there with any sort of military anyway.

But the most important thing NATO does, far better than the UN, is unite the western powers in matters BEYOND those simply concerning millitary action. And France, despite their awfulness, IS a nuclear power...

Among that many things I don't understand about LiquidCourage, the most confusing to me is how he seemingly wants the US to be allied with NOBODY whatsoever, no matter what the reason or purpose. I'll readily agree that much of the UN assembly countires are dragging their heels and being rather petty, but dismissing the usefulness and essential nature of NATO is just absurd. LC, your common solution to organizations you think are flawed (The ACLU, the UN, NATO) is to simply toss them aside or scrap them as opposed to actually trying to fix them for the better. Is there ANY hope for any of these groups?

And with that, I shall attempt to bow out gracefully...

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."



This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 2-11-03 @ 1:46 PM

[FiveB247]

Like I mentioned before, NATO is the US's version of solidarity amongst nations to go around UN orders. Things like military strikes, actions, etc...

[bigone1153]

the fact is that NATO is a link between western europe and the US, a relic of the cold war era, however in recent times, many of the former soviet bloc nations have either joined or are up for membership in NATO; it is a last sitch attempt at coehision in an ever shrinking world under the thumb of the global revolution (Take whatever conotation you will from the, be it negative or simply realist).. it serves as an organization within an organization (the UN), under the guise of mutual defense (which has come into question with two major powers refusing to enact motions to accomplish that very goal)...however the real issue should be the consequences of the new trend of pacification of Europe, obviously in response to the terrible toll taken on the continent as a result of two world wars...thus forcing the US to "go it alone" and flex its unilateral muscles in world affairs

long live 1968 bill murray

[LiquidCourage]

Most of them need a complete overhaul, but I don't see what the point of NATO is anymore. There doesn't seem to be any reason for it, since it was basically just for protection against the USSR.

I don't see what we get from countries like Iceland and Luxembourg, but they just get to mooch off of us.

They hate us anyway. It's time to let them go.
Unless of course somebody can point to some advantages of being in NATO, but I doubt that.

[Bergalad]

For anyone interested in what NATO stands for, here is the link to the charter: http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/treaty.htm

[FiveB247]

Iceland and Luxemburg hate us? (and they mooch off us?)Could you even locate these countries on a map? No less know what they think of the US and what the US gives them?

Your posts are turning into comedy gold...haha

[Bergalad]

Like I mentioned before, NATO is the US's version of solidarity amongst nations to go around UN orders. Things like military strikes, actions, etc...

I don't want to wade back into this again, but... NATO is often the group that dares to do what the UN fails to accomplish. Case in point would be Bosnia. The UN had their go at it and caved in, allowing for incredible brutality by the factions there. In a few cases, the UN troops actually watched while atrocities were performed; they did nothing to stop them. NATO came in and succeeded where the UN failed. Reality shows that NATO has the resolve to do what needs to be done, right or wrong. They act, while the UN waffles and discusses. They may not always do the correct action, but at least they act. For that I respect them more than the UN.

[FiveB247]

"big one"..glad to see someone else knows what's going on in the world. I made mention of such items before about the EU becoming less milatant and more socially conscience, yet it passed by with nothing but arguements and other setiments.

[LiquidCourage]

Perhaps if conservatives had control over every major means of news dissemination for a quarter century, they would have forgotten how to debate too, and would just call liberals stupid and mean war mongerers.

[LiquidCourage]

Do you even know what you are talking about? Your just spitting out these random thoughts which hold relevance...anywhere.

Translation:
You have nothing to say

[FiveB247]

Do you even know what you are talking about? Your just spitting out these random thoughts which hold relevance...anywhere.

Mind Overload...Look out fellas...he's gonna blow....KABOOM!!

[Bergalad]

Hey Bigone, just a quick question to clarify. Do you think that Five 'spun' what you said earlier or not? Not trying to pick a fight, just wondering. Both times you posted this thread, Five has subtly skewed (in my opinion) the meaning behind what you said. What do you think?

[Se7en]

LC, your common solution to organizations you think are flawed (The ACLU, the UN, NATO) is to simply toss them aside or scrap them as opposed to actually trying to fix them for the better. Is there ANY hope for any of these groups?

To answer your question in reference to the ACLU, no.

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I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

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[FiveB247]

Thanks for clearing that whole issue up for us 7.

[FUNKMAN]

Iceland and Luxemburg hate us?


For 25 years after WWII, Luxembourg had invited the families of the deceased American Soldiers buried in the thier cemetary, to stay in thier homes as they visited thier lost family member.
This was in appreciation for the help and support of the United States.
My grandparents went to visit my grandfathers brother who was killed in a tank at the Battle Of The Bulge. His grave is very close to General George Patton's.

I remember my grandma telling me that she had complimented a coffee-warmer that the Luxembourg family had in thier home. The family went out an bought her one. She cherished it but a few years after bringing it home, one of thier friends thought it was a coffee pot and put it on the burner, which ruined it. She was heartbroken...



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This message was edited by FUNKMAN on 2-12-03 @ 12:36 AM

[bigone1153]

i am by no mean a Liberal... and while i think they (the ACLU) go waaaayyyy too far in thier efforts, but before we condemn an organization dedicated to enforcing the bill of rights, let's all just take a step back and think about how ridiculous it would be... i am by no means a champion of a large amount of thier causes, but the spirit of thier efforts must be applauded

long live 1968 bill murray

[shamus mcfitzy]

That is simple fact and I'm sure that "bigone" would agree that is why the US is being causious of its actions (due to its reflection of control and power in the world).


i can't help but think of Bigone as the child of a divorcing Five and Berg

i think the EU has eliminated much of the need of NATO, and i think that most of the EU needs to realize that they're becoming puppets of the US {cough:England:cough} and that the US will just continue to assert undeserved power over the world if they don't stand up for themselves

[FiveB247]

Yeah..you tell'em "Bigone"...

"Bergalad" and "LC"....SUCK IT!!...haha

[bigone1153]

shamus, i think u underestimate the power of the un, which poses a decent threat to the US at least on economic terms, and i do agree about the uselesness of NATA, except that it serves as a military alliance between europe and the us, which helps europe in defense terms, unlike the EU; however with the distict possibility of russia joining NATO i feel something should be done...and as for the US' power being undeserved, i must disagree, the us is by far the dominant power in the world, unlike any previous country at any previous time except for maybe rome or the times of charlamenge, which is the reason many nations blindly follow the US, as they are on longer totaly relevant in world affairs-eg england- or why many nations try to object as best they can to US unilateral motions (France and Germany)- and it was very astute of u to pick up on the fact that i am the child of a broken home : (

long live 1968 bill murray

[FiveB247]

Well it appears you got your answer. :)

Ps.."Bigone", I think the US believes it is not dependant towards the UN in any respects due to the large amount of donations, funding, etc... And with that notion lies the problem with the US...they feel as if they are not subject to them for the UN's economic reliance on the US.

[bigone1153]

two things... 1 i meant the eu not the un poses an economic threat to the us (see us steel tariffs on eu steel) and 2) the problem with being the world's super power is that if u flex your muscle people and states resent u for it (iraqi war) and if u don't people resent u for not doing enough (africa, balkans, etc..)

long live 1968 bill murray

[FiveB247]

Ok..fair enough..I would agree with your statement then. Except I believe we should be doing more.

[SoLost22]

As I agree with someone before NATO like the UN fears the risk of becoming obsolete. The US for instance usually complies for diplomatic reasons but countries now have too much power, with this Iraqi problem the support of England may be enough for the US to crush Iraq regardless of what the rest of the UN thinks

"God looks after drunks, fools, and the United States."

[TheMojoPin]

Again, the issue in terms of getting multi-country support ISN'T about getting millitary reinforcement...it's obvious, we've got plenty and them some to take care of this ourselves. We simply don't have the money to take care of the bill for a war of this scale, and we need our fat, spoiled, rich cousins to lend us a few duckets.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[FiveB247]

That is a valid point regarding the cost of such action (war and invading Iraq), especially with the economy in the shape that it is in already.

But on another note, someone mentioned about the US usually complying with the UN diplomatically? That is completely un-true. They only comply and work along side the UN when they see fit (which isn't often); the US usually acts upon its own interests in a unilateral fashion. The US (a security council member) has rejected and halted the most legislation, solutions and process's in the UN; and far more then any other nation.

[Bergalad]

'Bergalad' and 'LC'....SUCK IT!!...haha

Why, is your mom in town? You seem to be the one doing the sucking in this thread, slobbing Bigone's junk because you think he might possibly agree with your anti-americanism. I just don't see that he does. I am surprised you would want someone to agree with you anyway, since that would take some of the attention you crave so much away from you.

[high fly]

No Action Talk Only

"Fan of Latin Spice's Kadoonk Adoonk since day one"

[FiveB247]

I crave attention? Not really..I just reply to posts that contain un-true facts and data. You may not agree with my perspective...but it's all based upon fact.

And I'm not sloppering over another poster...I'm just happy some one else has a clue what they are talking about. I don't completely agree with everything "bigone" said...but he does make valid points and mentions truthful notions. Not flag waving nationalism like yourself.

PS..NATO...New Age Terror Organization..

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 2-12-03 @ 12:41 PM

[Bergalad]

Again, it's all just so tired. For whatever reason, you are just trying to incite everyone. Now you are busting on NATO? You're not practicing free speech, just ignorant speech.

[FiveB247]

For the likes of you, ignornant speech is considered everything you do not agree with and do not understand. Simple rules for a simple-minded man.

[bigone1153]

guys.....let's all just calm down and unite agianst the common enemy... infinity broadcasting....those assholes...

long live 1968 bill murray

[Bergalad]

For the likes of you, ignornant speech is considered everything you do not agree with and do not understand. Simple rules for a simple-minded man.

Thanks for letting me be the target of your dissaffection.

[FiveB247]

Bergalad...if you're going to put down my thoughts, beliefs and such, you should expect to hear things back especially when many of the things you've mentioned are biased and un-founded.

[Bergalad]

Ugh. Mason started this thread, and I gave him my opinion. Immediately (the very next post in fact) you attacked me. I, and I am sure the rest of the board, am tired of it all. Just let it go.



This message was edited by Bergalad on 2-12-03 @ 11:41 PM

[FiveB247]

I attacked you? The way a message board works, someone posts a thread, others reply, re-act and retort to what is written.

[TheMojoPin]

While this has all been terribly fascinating, there's a little thing called "Instant Messenger" that's perfect for a couple of swinging lovebirds like yourselves...

Debates and fights on-topic, fine, cool, but now you're just attacking each other personally...

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."