Does Israel REALLY Need 5 Billion In US Aid Every Year?

[The Blowhard]

I say yes. Nuts to you Mojo, I answered the question. Agitator my ass.

[furie]

I thought it was only 4 billion

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[TheMojoPin]

My head just imploded.

Don't muck with the rules like that, Heck. It does NOT do a body good.

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[TheMojoPin]

My question with this is the one I always have anytime the US begins shelling out "aid"...what are we getting in return? Despite what some may think, I think we have no obligation to help others altruistically with our nation's money if the debt is going to far outweigh any benefits we may possibly receive. And in this case...what are we getting in return? An ally in a region where we have very few...but an ally that cannot be turned loose millitarily unless we're willing to dive into a probably WW3? Yeah, that's no good...call me when you get some more oil, Israel.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 2-18-03 @ 12:50 PM

[NewYorkDragons80]

If Israel is the alleged economic power some claim it to be, I do not see why they need our aid. Aid would be much more useful in underdeveloped nations that need it more than Israel.

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[Meatball]

- Israel is America's most trusted and reliable ally in the Middle East, the only state in the Middle East that publicly declares support for the U.S. -- despite the fact that Israel may bear the brunt of Saddam's weapons when an American offensive begins.

- Israel is on the frontline in the battle against Islamic terrorists, and provides the U.S. with key intelligence information and frontline military operations. As opinionjournal.com notes: "In 1981 Israel destroyed Iraq's Osirak reactor, setting back Saddam Hussein's quest for nuclear weapons. How much money and how many lives did this end up saving America?"

- Israel is the sole democracy in the Middle East, a region dominated by authoritarian and military regimes. Israel upholds Western ideals of freedom of expression, a free market economy, equal opportunity, women's rights, judicial review, and minority representation in elected offices. The U.S. spends untold billions spreading the ideals of democracy around the world; in Israel, it comes for free.

- The first U.S. President to supply large-scale military aid to Israel was Richard Nixon in 1970, in order to balance against the radical Arab states being financed by the Soviet Union. The U.S.-Israel partnership served its purpose by forcing such East Bloc clients as Egypt's Anwar Sadat to break from the Soviet fold. Having Israel do the dirty work in one of the world's most dangerous regions has, financially for the U.S., been a bargain.

- Israel partners with the U.S. in technological development, medical research, agricultural innovations, and a wide range of cultural exchanges. In addition, many Israeli-developed technologies serve as integral components of the U.S. military arsenal.

http://www.aipac.org/Assistance.PDF

The United States gives out $13.3 billion in direct foreign aid annually. The vast majority of these recipients express animosity toward the United States in state-sponsored media, and routinely vote against the U.S. in international forums



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This message was edited by Meatball on 2-18-03 @ 8:42 PM

[Death Metal Moe]

Listen. I understand that out association has made militants around the world upset with us. The allies just took the land and handed it over.

AND my father was one of the many people who ran from Israel in the war for the Golan Heights back in '67. He dragged wounded villagers with him away from his home. And then he watched as they leveled the mountian tops to build look outs, which unearthed a cemetary. So they had to rebury people. I understand how Israel TAKES land from people at will and other countries just kinda look the other way.

Having said all that, I have no problem with our friendship with Israel. That land has been disputed for thousands of years and this is the latest way it's being occupied.

We're friends with them, and we should stick up for our friends and help them. I hope that Israel will start to give back in this newest war with troops and other shit. I KNOW they'll let us fly bombing raids from there and station troops.

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[Meatball]

I understand how Israel TAKES land from people at will and other countries just kinda look the other way.

I know this isnt the point of this thread, but for an excellent article that refutes this all too common, but eroneous notion click below.

http://www.aish.com/SSI/articleToPrint.asp?PageURL=/jewishissues/middleeast/What_Occupation$.xml&torahportion=notparshapage&author=Professor+Efraim+Karsh&teaser=Few+subjects+have+been+falsified+so+thoroug hly+as+the+recent+history+of+the+West+Bank+and+Gaz a%2E

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[TheMojoPin]

I say both Israel and Palestine have their claims to the land rooted in religious frippery, hooh-hah, fairytales and gobbleygook, so they both pretty much annoy me equally. Nothing worse than two assholes arguing about who's the bigger asshole.

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[TheMojoPin]

I know this isnt the point of this thread, but for an excellent article that refutes this all too common, but eroneous notion click below.

Interesting article, but it only refutes such an obviously wrong statement as "Israel TAKES all the land they want"...but there IS, and rightfully so, a question of what to do with the Palestinians that already live in some of these areas that are "re-settled". I mean, it's basically the equivalent of some Native Americans re-taking Manhattan and saying all the New Yorkers living there will be perfectly happy moving to New Hampshire or Maine instead because "all you white guys are the same anyways."

Just set aside some sort of Palestinian state, seal off the Israeli borders, and quit poking the brown guys over the hill just because you've got big brother USA on your side. It's getting us into too much shit, it's getting us dead, and it's not cool.

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[ADF]

I mean, it's basically the equivalent of some Native Americans re-taking Manhattan and saying all the New Yorkers living there will be perfectly happy moving to New Hampshire or Maine instead because "all you white guys are the same anyways."

I thought the Muppets took Manhattan.


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[TheMojoPin]

Ah, blessed felt...before that bastard prawn/shrimp beast came along and ruined it all...

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[The Blowhard]

AND my father was one of the many people who ran from Israel in the war for the Golan Heights back in '67.


See? Moe is an Arab! How can you hate Arabs?
Get this man a felaffel and a Belly Dancer pronto!

[GaryWyze]

I understand how Israel TAKES land from people at will and other countries just kinda look the other way.

<font color=purple>Given the rest of you post, this is a moot point, but what you've said above is factually incorrect.

Israel has never been the aggressor, and the expansion of her borders only came about because of wars like '67 and 73, where in she was victorious in defense and siezed that land to create a much needed buffer zone. In fact, she didn't even sieze it.... it's always been considered occupied as opposed to annexed.

Let's also remember that Israel has done something that's pretty much unthinkable in the modern world, namely giving up its land to a "nation" wish calls for her very demise, all in interest of an ever elusive peace.

That aside, I agree with everything else you wrote.

[TheMojoPin]

Three cheer sfor Jewish peoplke!! Hip-hop-HOORRAY!!!1!! When the world i sdrunk, EVERYONE WINS!! SO MAKE WITH THE GOGOOD TIMES.

***Edit*** Patches is right, this is post is a glaring reminder of how much of a delicious menace booze is. Why the hell would we all win if the world was drunk? I'm an idiot.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 2-19-03 @ 7:19 PM

[Patches]

Nothin like a drunken 3:30 in the morning post to settle an argument. The middle east should just get hammered together, maybe do a few bumps and everything'll be A'ight!

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[NewYorkDragons80]

Israel has never been the aggressor, and the expansion of her borders only came about because of wars like '67 and 73, where in she was victorious in defense and siezed that land to create a much needed buffer zone.
In the conventional sense, Israel was the aggressor in 1967. They started the war... conventionally speaking. In less black and white terms, the Arabs started the war by using strategic locations like the Golan Heights to shell Israeli targets, but not issuing a declaration of war. Israel simply got fed up with it and finally did something about it; taking the stategic locations. Today, the Israelis have good relations with Egypt and superb relations with Jordan. The only neighbor they should expect trouble from is Syria.
In fact, she didn't even sieze it.... it's always been considered occupied as opposed to annexed.
Which is so much better, right? If it were annexed, Israel would at least have the responsibility to treat them like human beings. If these areas were annexed as a permanent part of Israel, the Palestinians would have voting rights in the Parliament. Occupation is much more disadvantageous for the Palestinians than annexation.

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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 2-19-03 @ 4:28 PM

[LatinJoker]

I got a better question:Why does turkey really need $30 billion dollars for us to use their bases?Also,Why isnt saudi arabia and kuwait donating oil for our war effort,like they did in the first gulf war?

I'm Ron and Fez's lovechild.You so stuuupid!!!Desperately missing the guys.Sniff sniff.

[Trainspotting]

I support Netanyahu's belief that if Israel received less aid or no aid from the USA , it would have more freedom to go after it's enemies. I guess he's saying that once Israel accepts money from us, it has to go by what we say it can or cannot do.

One question I like to ask is this: Is Zionism racist and do Palestinians have a historical right to the land? I say that history of the region is so complex( having been invaded and under the dominion of different regimes and ethnicities, that it's hard to make a clear cut assumption. Zionism is not racist in IMHO because the like anyone else, people who are Jewish have the right to be proud of who they are.

See ya!
Trainspotting

[LatinJoker]

I might be wrong here,i'm sure somebody here will correct me.Didnt the jordanians control the west bank for a time,and didnt the egyptians control the gaza strip for a time?And if so,how come they werent called "occupiers"?They committed more atrocities against the palestinians then the jews did.Why no backlash?Those two countries also werent in any rush to give the palestinians their own state.

I'm Ron and Fez's lovechild.You so stuuupid!!!Desperately missing the guys.Sniff sniff.

[Death Metal Moe]

See? Moe is an Arab! How can you hate Arabs?
Get this man a felaffel and a Belly Dancer pronto!


Sorry Heckler. My father's family fled Russia to avoid Religious Persicution long ago, and migrated to Syria. So they're only a few generations in Syria.

What a lucky choice it was to settle in the Golan Heights.

I gotta be honest with everybody. I went to my father's old town where they resettled after the war in '67, and that whole area of the Earth is a SHITHOLE.

It's dusty, barren and hot. Up in the Heights things can grow, but it's not fertile land like here in NJ even. It's rough going. I don't know WHY people fight over that shitty part of the Earth.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

There are plenty of reasons that Turkey wants $30 billion. Their siding with the US could possibly hurt them economically or open them to attack. I'm not saying Turkey deserves the money, nor should they ask for it, but they don't have to let us use their bases. It is their land and they have the right to charge us for it, the bastards.

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[The Blowhard]

I don't mind the 5 billion but why do they flaunt those 18K gold Yamulkes in our faces?

[A.J.]

I don't mind the 5 billion but why do they flaunt those 18K gold Yamulkes in our faces?

What is the Hebrew word(s) for "bling"?

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[TheMojoPin]

What is the Hebrew word(s) for "bling"?

Ladies and gentlemen...please join in me in elcoming the newly appointed Israeli Grand Poobah for life...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 2-20-03 @ 11:50 AM

[lippy]

Israel is America's most trusted and reliable ally in the Middle East,


That's because by supporting Israel we alienate everyone else.

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[GaryWyze]

That's because by supporting Israel we alienate everyone else.

<font color=purple>The Islamic world hates us for our perceived decadence, not our alliance with Israel.

Obviously, having Israel as an ally doesn't endear us to them, but remove that from the equation and the they'd still have nothing but contempt for us and our very way of life.

Bin Laden himself cited that, and our presence in Saudi Arabia, as the main reasons for 9/11.

All things considered, 5 Billion dollars is a small price to pay to have a like-minded democratic ally within the region.

[HordeKing1]

Dammit. I wrote a long response and forgot to save before replying. I'll be much briefer (I know, a terrible thing).

NY DRAGON wrote:

If Israel is the alleged economic power some claim it to be, I do not see why they need our aid.

Who exactly claims this?


MEATBALL - Excellent points.


DEATHMETALMOE - I'm sorry about your dad. However the Israeli's responded as they should have in the war of aggression against her by the surrounding Arab states. If Israel had gone further and destroyed the capitals, or "taken" territory we would not be in this situation now.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0n1m0

You make a good point about the territories. Forget the religious bullshit about them. That's all crap and not relevant. Calling the territories "occupied" however, is a misnomer. In reality they are at most, disputed territories.

http://www.masada2000.org/geography.html


MOJOPIN wrote:
it's basically the equivalent of some Native Americans re-taking Manhattan and saying all the New Yorkers living there will be perfectly happy moving to New Hampshire or Maine instead because "all you white guys are the same anyways."

That would be a fair analogy (switched around of course, as the Israelis lived there first) IF it were about land. It never was. It is not now. It never will be. Want proof. Take a look at this:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide1.html


GARYWYZE - Good points, but I still feel the correct term is "disputed." The term "occupied" is Arab propeganda. See the links above.


NYDRAGON - Arabs living in Israel have always been better than their less fortunate relatives living in Arab land. Jobs, food, health care living is Israel. Nada for most living in Arab lands. Except guns and explosives. For some things, you can always use mastercard. I have never heard anyone dispute this. The Arabs have always treated their own people and other neighboring Arabs like dirt.


HECKLER - Why do Jewish women use gold diaphrams? Because their husbands like to come into money.









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[NewYorkDragons80]

Yes, Hordeking, the Arab-Israelis have the same liberties as Jews. They have the full rights of all Israeli citizens (And if Israel was smart they would tout this fact a lot more), but Palestinians are permanent second-class citizens and Israel has no responsibility to treat them equally because they are under military control. If Israel wants the occupation of Palestine to be permanent, they must give the Palestinians the same rights as all Israelis.

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[HordeKing1]

See the last link above.

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[TheMojoPin]

Israel isn't always right.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

Israel isn't always right.
Why the hate?

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[NewYorkDragons80]

If there is eventually a Palestinian state and attacks on Israel continue, they really won't have a diplomatic leg to stand on will they? My point is that not only would Israel defeat Palestine militarily, but also in the theater of world opinion. All the nations that claim they only want a return to '67 borders will lose all credibility if they support a Palestinian war against Israel after Israel grants the independence they beg for.

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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 2-21-03 @ 1:13 AM

[TheMojoPin]

Why the hate?

Can't...help...hating...JEWS...but...WHY?!?

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[HordeKing1]

They're not even claiming they want pre 67 borders. Take a look at this link. See the common thread? Elimination of Israel. Not the west bank, not the gaza strip, not the disputed territories. Elimination of Israel.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide1.html

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[NewYorkDragons80]

The first document that comes to my mind that involves pre '67 borders is the Saudi Peace Proposal. There are probably others, but that is the most recent.

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[CaptClown]

Dammit. I wrote a long response and forgot to save before replying

I thought I was the only one that did that.

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[Mxyzptlk]

How many pennies a minute is that? I'm too lazy at the moment to calculate it myself.


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[Reiko Hidama]

I believe they need it and in return we get some, back by them buying our goods, our planes, our tanks, our weapons. Among other things.

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