Chelsea to make 6 figures out of grad school

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I guess if your dad gets hummers from a fat wench, your future is bright

From the AP

NEW YORK (March 8) - Chelsea Clinton will start a six-figure consulting job after she receives a master's degree from Oxford University later this year, Newsweek magazine reports on its Web site.

The daughter of former President Clinton will work in the New York office of London-based McKinsey & Company, newsweek.com reported Friday.

Clinton, 23, accepted the position Friday after she reportedly turned down McKinsey's offer of $100,000 a year to work at its London headquarters, according to the Web site.

A spokesman for McKinsey did not immediately return a call for comment Saturday, nor did Bill Clinton's office.

Clinton, who is studying international relations at Oxford, will be one of 5,000 McKinsey consultants worldwide who research topics ranging from health care to corporate finance.


Kinda makes you think when the #1 rapper is white and the #1 golfer is black

[Def Dave in SC]

God Dammit!!! Who the hell can she be consulting for that much money, huh? this kinda shit makes my blood boil. i cant even say anything remotely funny, and that pisses me off

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With so much drama in the D. of C., its kinda hard bein Def D.A.V.I.D.

[FiveB247]

Money stays with money. It's the way of the world.

[FUNKMAN]

i was listening to the AM News station yesterday and they reported this information...

first thought that came to mind is "who gives a blue fuck"!, and are the News stations that hard up for news that they have to report this girls salary.

MEDIA ASSHOLES!



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This message was edited by FUNKMAN on 3-9-03 @ 7:02 PM

[WRESTLINGFAN]

These liberals are a bunch of phonies. Doesnt matter what your political party is.. Its all about the cash

Kinda makes you think when the #1 rapper is white and the #1 golfer is black

[FMJeff]

By the way, for everyone who thinks she doesn't deserve it, she studied international relations at Oxford and her father was President of the United States. That's a pretty good resume if you ask me.

You get what you put into it. You go to Rutgers, expect to make 35. You go to Oxford, expect to make 75...add your father being President of the most powerful country in the world and 100,000 is fucking chump change.

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[ADF]

These liberals are a bunch of phonies. Doesnt matter what your political party is.. Its all about the cash



Unlike those conservatives who all took vows of poverty.

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[shamus mcfitzy]

By the way, for everyone who thinks she doesn't deserve it, she studied international relations at Oxford and her father was President of the United States. That's a pretty good resume if you ask me.


that says it all. She went to Oxford. She deserves her money as much as any other rich person. Her father was president, so she'll be set for life. It's how things work. Just check the White House....

[travis151]

I don't blame her, if someone offered you 100,000 to work in New York city would you turn it down? Hell no hope she gets company car also.

Red Sox=More Better

[Dudeman]

The president before Clinton bought his son the
governorship of Texas and the presidency of the United
States. And, as opposed to Chelsea, that guy was
supposed to be a crappy student. I think Chelsea got
ripped off.

[Death Metal Moe]

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[FiveB247]

Many places in the "forefront of education" are based on having enough money to go their. I'm not saying by any means that intellectuals (teachers and students) are not based at these ivy league or top notch institutions, obviously they are. But these people attend and can afford to attend these schools due to their "contributions" as well as financial standing. It's a class based ritual with little or few ousiders involved. Obviously someone with a degree from such a college would be offered a top notch job and pay. But does anyone know someone who fails out of Ivy league Schools (anytime after the 1st semester)? (No one fails out of such Graduate Schools either...) It's all about financial standing and class.

[Arienette]

for everyone who thinks she doesn't deserve it, she studied international relations at Oxford and her father was President of the United Statesi'll give you the oxford thing... it's a very prestigious university, and i'm sure she's a smart girl. however, your father being president does not make you any more qualified than anyone else.. take a look at george w. i went to an ivy league university, and did quite well there. my salary coming out of school was nothing near six figures.

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[Zoefus]

Not for nothing..... she did not have anything to do with what her parents did or did not do. Don't let the sins of the parent's be a stigma on her.

[erole]

let her have the money. stop your bitchin.


~he knows a little of everything
and a lot about nothin'

This message was edited by erole on 3-9-03 @ 10:42 PM

[Arienette]

she did not have anything to do with what her parents did or did not do. Don't let the sins of the parent's be a stigma on hermy problem is not her parents' behavoir, it's the fact that a person can get further in life than others based solely unpon her parent's vocation. bill can get as many extramarital bj's as he wants.... i just want to get a high paying job despite the fact that my father's a teacher.

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[Contra]

my problem is not her parents' behavoir, it's the fact that a person can get further in life than others based solely unpon her parent's vocation. bill can get as many extramarital bj's as he wants.... i just want to get a high paying job despite the fact that my father's a teacher.


well unfortunately thats not the way the world works. its not about what you know. it's about who you know, how you know them, what you know about them, and what they can do for you. plain and simple, that is the reality.

i heard this news and didnt think anything of it, this was expected.

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[TooCute]

But does anyone know someone who fails out of Ivy league Schools (anytime after the 1st semester)? (No one fails out of such Graduate Schools either...)

I know not only 'someone' but multiple people that have failed out of Ivy league schools. I also know more than one person who has been kicked out of graduate school.

I also know plenty of people who didn't have a father who was a president and a mother who was a senator that made plenty of money coming out of college, nevermind graduate school.

I don't understand why everyone is so resentful. Bright people tend to make more money. Bright people also tend to have bright children. Therefore you assume that there will be a general tendency for people who go to good schools and make lots of money to have children who go to good schools and make lots of money. Chelsea is by no means the only graduate from Oxford who is going to be making the salary she does; people are only resentful because they think that somehow it was only her name that got her into this school and landed her this job.

Ivy league schools are not so much of an 'exclusive network' as most people seem to think. I know any number of people who you might expect to get into Ivy league schools be rejected.

I know on girl who's grandfather went to Harvard and was (is) still teaching at the medical school, and had both of her parents as Harvard undergrad/Harvard med school graduates; her mother is still a professor at the Harvard School of Public Health. She had a 1530 on her SATs, straight A's at Phillips-Andover and research experience in Immunology labs. Guess what? She didn't get in to Harvard. There are endless examples of the same.

I guess I just don't see the point in bitching about people like Chelsea Clinton. Did it ever occur to anyone that she might actually be smarter and better educated than the average person and deserve what she's being paid?

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[FiveB247]

I never took anything away from Chelsea...but if you somehow think that knowing who her parents are didn't have some influence in her future expectations or how people perceive her...you are wrong. She probably has great grades, is smart and deserves a good job...but the other stuff does factor in.

And you may know of many people who have been in and out of high educational institutions, but people aren't easily admitted to such places. And chances are if you looked up statistics regarding the financial standing of students in ivy league schools ...it'd be mostly upper class based. Social statistics in this nation for the past 40 years all back up the facts regarding separation of wealth, which also encompasses the idea that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer (the middle class in this nation is shrinking). The rich stick to their own, and that includes colleges.

[TheGameHHH]

People are just bitching because they think it's unfair, but in reality it wasn't. Are you really more qualified for the job than she is????

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[Death Metal Moe]

Fuck Chelsea.

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[TheGameHHH]

That I do agree with, Fuck Chelsea!

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Thanks ADF

[FiveB247]

I'd throw her one..hehe

[TooCute]

I never took anything away from Chelsea...but if you somehow think that knowing who her parents are didn't have some influence in her future expectations or how people perceive her...you are wrong. She probably has great grades, is smart and deserves a good job...but the other stuff does factor in.

Of course it does. But that is true for ANY profession or job. If I am competing for a job as a bartender with someone who is best friends with all the bartenders who already work there, who is more likely to get the job? So what? Chances are that she's better qualified simply because of that fact.

And CLEARLY who her parents are are coloring how people are perceiving her; people are whining because she's getting paid more than they are, nevermind that she most likely deserves it.

And you may know of many people who have been in and out of high educational institutions, but people aren't easily admitted to such places.

No, they aren't. That's why they're the top schools in this country. Because for the most part the SMARTEST, MOST TALENTED people go there. Even the 'jocks' you find at many of these top schools, while they may take easy courses in easy majors, are far smarter than average.

And chances are if you looked up statistics regarding the financial standing of students in ivy league schools ...it'd be mostly upper class based.

I disagree. Almost all of the top schools in the country (my own alma mater being one of the most recent converts) are need blind. In other words, if you are smart, you get in, and worry about the money afterwards. Most of the top schools in the country do their best to provide sufficient financial aid to all accepted applicants.

In college I worked with a girl who was from a small (I mean small!) town (I think they're called 'colonia'? ) on the texas-mexico border who lived in a house with her seven brothers and sisters and grew up working as a migrant field worker with the rest of her family. Hardly upper class. An extreme example, perhaps, but not unusual.

If Ivy league schools are so upper class, why is it that well over half of the students attending them are on financial aid?

Pointless point though, really, since I don't know the statistics and neither do you. Go be useful and look them up.

As I said earlier: smart people usually have smarter, better educated kids. Therefore you might expect to find a higher percentage of smarter, better educated kids in the schools that are considered 'elite' because they are for - yes - smarter, better educated kids.

What do you want? For schools to lower their standards? That is what community college is for. Again - if you are demonstrably smart and deserving of getting in - and you want to go to college - you're going to get into a good school somewhere. Wealthy or not.

According to Missy, the dumb, wealthy kids go to schools like where that girl was turning her back on the flag :)

I just don't understand what the complaint is.

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[Bama]

Chelsea got her job based on her looks. Hot chicks always win in the end.

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[A.J.]

So now will she be one of those wealthy 1% who benefit from the Bush tax break?

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[golfcourseguy]

Take heart,those of you who are "only" Stanford graduates. Maybe,you could be Chelsea's intern, if you decide to go to grad school.

" editing posts since day one"

[FUNKMAN]

Maybe,you could be Chelsea's intern



yeah, but be ready to perform oral...

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[angrymissy]

She went to Oxford for her Masters for christsakes. Finishing up at Oxford isn't exactly a cakewalk. Do you think she should be making like $30,000 just becuase you don't like her and she's a former President's daughter? More power to her if she can get a good job.

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[samnyc]

Ok, I admit I'm jealous. But 100K is very little for Chelsea -- her security expenses that we pay for must be at least $1MM/year.

And Steph McMahon makes more money because of her family connections than Chelsea is set to earn right now ...

[grlNIN]

Seriously, i just want to know why everyone gives 2 shits abotu Chelsea Clinton and her salary??....is it the principle of the matter?....or just sheer jealousy?

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[TooCute]

is it the principle of the matte

What principle? That better educated people can make more money? boo hoo hoo.

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[travis151]

Why the hell are we arguing over this!?! Who cares ... one other thing I would bang her but not because of her looks she's not hot.

Red Sox=More Better

[JerryTaker]

Did it ever occur to anyone that she might actually be smarter and better educated than the average person and deserve what she's being paid?


Of course not! she can't be any better than <I>me!!!!</I> The only reason she gets so much money is because she's a dirty, rotten stinkin' liberal!!!! those liberals wouldn't help me get money to go to college, they just want to side with Iraq!!! Why doesn't she pick up a gun and run into Baghdad and shoot some Ay-Rabs!? Because Her dad got a BJ!!! A BJ!!! That evil Bill Clinton! Die, you little skank! and give <I>me</I> that money, <I>me, me, me, me, me!!!!!!!</I>


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[angrymissy]

She's getting paid the regular starting salary for the position, which you need damn good credentials to get, and which takes up your enitre life (see quote from MSN)


As one of 5,000 consultants worldwide, Clinton will look forward to long hours, lots of travel and no bragging about the job. "It's very secretive," says the former recruiter. And selective. Average applicants have to be in the 99th percentile on all of their standardized test scores, have straight A's in college. The firm even looks at a candidate's SAT scores.
After three years of general consulting-say studying whether a Fortune 500 company should switch from selling apples to widgets-Chelsea will be able to specialize in anything from healthcare to consumer goods to corporate finance.
So now that the whole family is back in New York they'll have plenty of time to spend with each other, right? "She'll have no personal life whatsoever," the former recruiter says.

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[Dudeman]

Almost all of the top schools in the country (my
own alma mater being one of the most recent converts)
are need blind. In other words, if you are smart, you get
in,

being need blind is not always going to get the smartest
people. it is going to get some people whose parents can
pay for them to get SAT prep courses or who can afford to
have their kids think about nothing but their school work
and extracurricular activities. the less fortunate kids may
actually be smarter than some of the "rich" kids, but they
dont get trained for the standardized college entrance
exam or they may not be able to focus as much on their
school work.

this is just an example of where being need blind doesnt
always get you the smartest people. in other words, it isnt
"if you are smart you get in;" rather it is " if you are smart
and/OR your parents could afford you the freedoms to
persue your academic career, then you get in."

[TooCute]

being need blind is not always going to get the smartest
people. it is going to get some people whose parents can
pay for them to get SAT prep courses or who can afford to
have their kids think about nothing but their school work
and extracurricular activities. the less fortunate kids may
actually be smarter than some of the "rich" kids, but they
dont get trained for the standardized college entrance
exam or they may not be able to focus as much on their
school work.

Interestingly, many elite schools are very much against accepting students who are
clearly had nothing but time (and pressure from their parents) to devote to things that
look good on an application. SAT prep courses apparently raise SAT scores (I wouldn't
know, neither me nor my siblings ever took one and we all scored above 1400 on our
SATs) but a difference of one or two hundred points on the SAT course are unlikely to
greatly influence a student's acceptence or rejection from a school in the end of the
day. Too many other factors are considered, and I'm going out on a limb here but I'm
assuming that the people who do well on their SATs are going to be the ones who
tend to do well in their classwork and take harder courses as well. From what I have
been told by admissions committee members from Ivy league schools, the SAT scores
are generally used is more as a means of weeding out the subpar applications rather
than choosing the best ones (ie anyone below 1300 gets toseed out in the first round)

I also don't know what you mean by "smarter". Schools accept students on the basis
of how well they think the students will succeed at their school. Wouldn't you expect
them to accept the students who have already demonstrated their ability to succeed
(in both academic and real life situations)?

this is just an example of where being need blind doesnt
always get you the smartest people. in other words, it isnt
"if you are smart you get in:" rather it is " if you are smart
and/OR your parents could afford you the freedoms to
persue your academic career, then you get in."

You have the beginnings of a point, but your black and white assertion that only the
upper class go to the elite schools of the nation is flat out wrong. Certainly it is easier
for someone who has attended an exclusive private school (I dont know about any
other schools, but I know my prep school had all kinds of scholarships; two friends
that I had in high school who were on almost full scholarships both went to Harvard)
to get into one of the elite shools in the nation, but what are you going to do? That is
what parents pay for. If they didn't want their kids to have the best education they
could afford, they'd send them to public school (and for that matter there are plenty of
excellent public schools in the country - take Stuyvesant in NYC as an example). People
work for their money so they can spend it. A good education for your children is
certainly as worthy a way to spend money as any other.

What alternative would you suggest? Perhaps that everyone be forced to go to public
schools? That private schools be made public? That top universities accept less people
with less competetive applications because they /might/ be able to succeed at the
school? That rich people pay for poor people to go to school (that's what public school
is)?


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This message was edited by TooCute on 3-10-03 @ 6:51 PM

[samnyc]

TooCute, what you don't understand, likely because
you share certain elements of Chelsea's background, is
that this article arouses people's emotions because
they are jealous that they didn't have the same
opportunities to exceed that Chelsea had in their
youth. No one is begrudging her the $100k now.
That's chump change for her anyway. Even for people
like me who achieve 99% standardized test scores,
using these scores to get ahead is difficult because
school is expensive, the best programs require high
level contacts, and full time study costs a student the
opportunity to earn income required to cover basic
expenses. Strictly on the basis of standardized test
scores I could likely outperform Chelsea at McKinsey,
but I won't get the opportunity to do so right now.

By the way, for any McKinsey recruiters who may be
reading this please contact me by RFMail.

[Dewey]

Moe, I love you, I really do.

Too Cute, prestigious universities may be "need blind", but they are most certainly not "breed blind". Tell me the last time a Kennedy, Vanderbilt, Ford, or Carnegie was turned down by a prestigious university. No effing way. Those endowments don't get built by accident.

Part of the reason people are pissed off about Chelsea Clinton is that they resent the way her trailer-trash parents treated the office of the Presidency. Stealing national treasures on the way out, starting a "registry" on the way out, selling pardons, selling nights in the Lincoln bedroom, the "Clinton Library" (a $200 million retirement home for Bill and Hill), and so on. The list is endless, and disgusting.

Being a consultant requires not only intelligence, but the wisdom of experience. No way Chelsea is qualified for it. It is flat-out obvious that this job for Chelsea is an investment by McKinsey. It buys them nice publicity now, and is a bribe-in-advance, should the old battle axe make it to the White House.

P.S. At what level of education do they teach you how to edit paragraphs? =) =) =) =)



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[angrymissy]

Being a consultant requires not only intelligence, but the wisdom of experience. No way Chelsea is qualified for it. It is flat-out obvious that this job for Chelsea is an investment by McKinsey. It buys them nice publicity now, and is a bribe-in-advance, should the old battle axe make it to the White House.


The position she has accepted is an ENTRY-LEVEL position, for which they only hire college graduates for. None of the people that are hired for the position she is accepting have any experience, they're all straight out of college.

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[FiveB247]

I don't think anyone is begrudging Chelsea due to the fact that she's not qualified or smart enough or doesn't deserve the money the job pays. But you got to recognize the influence her family name and parents level of attainment that gets bestowed upon her. It is a factor. It's the same with any upper-class family of such caliber...ie the Kennedy's ..etc.

But you can not dance around the fact that people of this nature are in places such as Oxford, Harvard, etc...due to money. They may well be smart enough to be there, but it's the money they have to throw around that allows them the leaway and access (something most people do not have).

[TheMojoPin]

Jesus Christ, poor people piss me the fuck off. Don't you have potatos to peel or something?

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[TooCute]

From what I can tell, there are three separate issues in this thread.

1.
Part of the reason people are pissed off about Chelsea Clinton is that they resent the way her trailer-trash parents treated the office of the Presidency

Chelsea might be perfectly intelligent and capable and qualified for her job, people are resentful of her simply because they didn't like her parents politics.

2.
my problem is not her parents' behavoir, it's the fact that a person can get further in life than others based solely unpon her parent's vocation.

Chelsea got her job because of her parents, not based on her qualifications.

3. But these people attend and can afford to attend these schools due to their "contributions" as well as financial standing. It's a class based ritual with little or few ousiders involved.

People are resentful of rich people in general, and believe that Ivy league schools are only attended by rich people who may or may not be 'smart'.


Is that a concise summary of the issues in this thread?

1. It's a stupid reason to be resentful of someone. Bill and Hillary's actions do not reflect on Chelsea. She didn't choose her parents.

2. It's the way the world is. In ALL socioeconomic classes. It's WHO you know, much more than WHAT you know. Undoubtedly every single person here knows people and can get hookups that Chelsea will never be able to. Who's dumber, the person who can use their hookups to get a good job, or the ones who don't?

I get the impression that people are very much more resentful of her because of who her parents are than anything else; I hope so at least because we know who her parents are. We don't know what her grades were in school, what her standardized test scores were, etc.

If that weren't the case, I'm assuming that somebody probably would have brought up the Bush twins by now - I forget which one is going to Yale, but if you're going on the basis of their actions alone, Chelsea was never dumb enough to try to use a fake ID to get liquor (or at least never got caught, but I'm going to assume it was the former simply because she has a rather remarkable and memorable face) and never had to take SS guys to bail a friend out after he was picked up for drinking.

3. In terms of this issue, it is somewhat more complicated. But I still will maintain that Ivy League schools are not the super snobby jumping off points of rich dumb kids into the world of making-lots-of-money that people in this thread seem to think they are. These schools have a reputation for academic excellence for a reason. Of course there is a long legacy essentially famous rich white men who have graduated from schools like Harvard, Yale and Princeton, but to suggest that the majority, or even a large percentage of the students at such universities are there purely on the basis of their socioeconomic standing is ludicrous. The percentage might be higher particularly at those three schools, and perhaps less so for the other Ivys, and then even less so at other top schools (with the exception of colleges like Amherst and Williams), but you have to understand that these schools are very much committed to diverse student bodies. Even were they to accept all of the academically qualified legacy students and all children of famous people etc., that would still be a miniscule percentage of the total student body.

Who the fuck cares if a school accepts a Kennedy or a Rockerfeller or whatever the hell other famous rich family? The amount of money they get in contributions from that family are going to support the financial needs are far more students than the one potential student who wasn't accepted - and could have been rejected for any number of other reasons anyhow.

Why, if these schools - and as an aside I must say that I am stalking strictly about these sort of elite, old schools like Harvard and Yale etc. - there are many of schools that are just as good academically which simply do not have the same name. - are such old-boy-network-rich-folk-clubs, do they strive every year to ac

[A.J.]

Who the fuck cares if a school accepts a Kennedy or a Rockerfeller or whatever the hell other famous rich family?


Too Cute's right: It made no difference to me that my university accepted Roger Staubach's and Bob Newhart's kids.

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[silera]

I was raised by a single mom that worked in a factory and I went to a private boarding school full tuition paid and expenses as well.

The money that is contributed by rich alumni, pays for most of the scholarship and grant moneys given to financial aid students at these schools. If one of their kids isn't as qualified as other applicants, but their donations are paying for 50 other kids to be able to attend, I'd consider that a good tradeoff for the school.



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[FiveB247]

I don't argue the fact that people are smart or deserving to be in such institutions. And many times their families may donate money and such, which is obviously nice. But you're ingoring the fact that many of the standards and practices that encorporate the process of getting into these high tier colleges are out of the realm of a student with less funding. Prep schools, test prep tutors and classes, to name a small few. These insituitions are diverse by allowing in a few minorities under EEOP (even though they probably are qualified regardless) and they also consider foreign exchange students. Overall, these type colleges (ivey league/ upper-tier) are representations of upper class students from upper class families with enough resources and money to provide for such accomodations.

[TheMojoPin]

Overall, these type colleges (ivey league/ upper-tier) are representations of upper class students from upper class families with enough resources and money to provide for such accomodations.

And your point is...?

Everyone's been saying that yes, these schools are MOSTLY filled with kids that are from "well off" families. You go to a richer school, you tend to get a better education. But there are are also quite a few students who attend who aren't really even close to wealthy who get in based on their grades and test scores.

What do want here? EVERYONE to be allowed in? You're approaching PRIVATE institutions like they somehow need to be regulated by the government or something to "level the playing field."

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[TooCute]

Overall, these type colleges (ivey league/ upper-tier) are representations of upper class students from upper class families with enough resources and money to provide for such accomodations

You didn't do very well in reading comprehension, did you?


As a side note: I don't know what your definition of upperclass, is, but fully 50% (oky fine actually it's 49%) of Harvard's students in 2002 received money in the form of scholarshiships and grants (I can't figure out if that includes students who took out loans; it also isn't going to include people like my parents who took out provate loans to pay for my education - they're still paying back my high school education costs I think) and the average yearly family income of those people just looking at the graph on Harvard's website looks to be about $60,000, with nearly as many folks in the $40,000 and $80,00 levels and then dropping off pretty sharply from there. Overall upper class representation, indeed.

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This message was edited by TooCute on 3-11-03 @ 2:51 PM

[FiveB247]

Actually, Too Cute in a previous post (if you look back) , refuted that the money had any influence in people going to these schools. She also mentioned that many students are not (in the majoity) from well off/ upper-class families. And my last post, "Overall, these type colleges (ivy league/ upper-tier) are representations of upper class students from upper class families with enough resources and money to provide for such accomodations." , is right on target. I'm not trying to level the playing field or anything similar. I'm calling a spade a spade (no rascist jokes btw).

Ps...My comprehension skills are great...thanks for asking :)

[TooCute]

Actually, Too Cute in a previous post (if you look back) , refuted that the money had any influence in people going to these schools.

Actually, what I said is that rich people tend to have smarter, better educated children and that's why they tend to better schools. You're saying that I said the childrens' intelligence doesn't matter. They only get in based on money.

She also mentioned that many students are not (in the majoity) from well off/ upper-class families. And my last post, "Overall, these type colleges (ivy league/ upper-tier) are representations of upper class students from upper class families with enough resources and money to provide for such accomodations." , is right on target.

I'd like to know what makes you so right on target, given that I just went and looked up the stats for Harvard, Yale and Brown, and posted the stats for Harvard above. I forgot to post that at Harvard 64% (that's a majority) of the students went to public schools. Percentages were similar at other schools. If the large majority of the majority of students at Harvard are coming from families that make $80,000/year or less, can you really say that the student body is a representation of upper class students from upper class families (which, btw, seems redundant. I have yet to meet a lower class student from an upper class family, though I've met plenty with low class)

I'm not trying to level the playing field or anything similar. I'm calling a spade a spade (no rascist jokes btw).

Indeed you aren't. You're just bitter that you didn't get into some school you wanted to go to. I do so hope that you have equally bitter feelings towards all the less qualified minorities that go to these schools.

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[FiveB247]

You couldn't be more wrong Too Cute. You make it seem if I'm jealous of people like Chelsea or anyone in an ivy league school. I could care less quite honestly. I did go to the college of my choice and wasn't bitterly cast there by the rejection of another school (as you make it seem). I never said anything bad towards Chelsea or her not deserving her newly acquired job. I never argued that the people in these schools aren't smart or intelligent either. I simply stated (which you continue to overlook), is the fact that many of these people have more money, resources and availability to have access into these schools. And if you want to get technical, your mention of families making 60-80k per year...I suggest you take a look at class and tax brackets, that's considered upper - middle of the middle class. The low level upper class (via tax and class) is considered 80- 120k per year...(which chances are, overall still point towards closer to what I stated).

[FMJeff]

i'll give you the oxford thing... it's a very prestigious university, and i'm sure she's a smart girl. however, your father being president does not make you any more qualified than anyone else..

Oh c'mon now Arienette...her mother is a US Senator and her father was governor and President. You don't think ANY of the qualities that made them both highly successful, highly visible, highly influential people in this world rubbed off on her? It's all about breeding and upbringing. This girl was built for success...its in her blood.



take a look at george w.


You mean president of the United States and former governor of Texas? That's a pretty shitty example of someone who didn't succed under the rubric of good parentage.


i went to an ivy league university, and did quite well there. my salary coming out of school was nothing near six figures.


What does that have to do with anything? The argument is her education in combination with her parentage. Last time I checked your father was never the Commander in Chief.


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[TooCute]

I simply stated (which you continue to overlook), is the fact that many of these people have more money, resources and availability to have access into these schools.

This is where reading comprehension comes in. I agreed with you. I agreed with you a long time ago.

let's review: in my first post I wrote:
Bright people tend to make more money. Bright people also tend to have bright children. Therefore you assume that there will be a general tendency for people who go to good schools and make lots of money to have children who go to good schools and make lots of money.

In my second post I repeated:
As I said earlier: smart people usually have smarter, better educated kids. Therefore you might expect to find a higher percentage of smarter, better educated kids in the schools that are considered 'elite' because they are for - yes - smarter, better educated kids.

In my third (well actually fourth post) I wrote:
Certainly it is easier for someone who has attended an exclusive private school (I dont know about any other schools, but I know my prep school had all kinds of scholarships: two friends that I had in high school who were on almost full scholarships both went to Harvard) to get into one of the elite shools in the nation, but what are you going to do? That is what parents pay for.

I hope I don't need to repeat myself again.

Let me try to say it one more time in a way that you can understand: What I disagreed with you about is your assertion that only people who can afford to these schools go to them, and in case your need your memory refreshed...

Many places in the "forefront of education" are based on having enough money to go their(sic)...these people attend and can afford to attend these schools due to their "contributions" as well as financial standing. It's a class based ritual with little or few ousiders involved.

Let's note the 'little or few outsiders'; by outsiders I assume you mean outside of the 'upper class'.

And chances are if you looked up statistics regarding the financial standing of students in ivy league schools ...it'd be mostly upper class based.

Well, at least you got away from the 'little or few' and moved to 'mostly'...

I gave you the numbers for Harvard; take a look at a place like Princeton (whose endowment, I believe is larger than Harvard's) and fully 80% (go check their website) are on financial aid. The point I was trying to make (and let me quote my first post again, lest you not understand me yet again) was:

Ivy league schools are not so much of an 'exclusive network' as most people seem to think

Get it? No matter what you might think, they don't involve 'little or few' 'outsiders'

And if you want to get technical, your mention of families making 60-80k per year....that's considered upper - middle of the middle class.

That was my point. Last time I checked, middle class - even upper middle class - is not upper class. I'm pretty certain that you wrote:

Overall, these type colleges (ivey league/ upper-tier) are representations of upper class students from upper class families with enough resources and money to provide for such accomodations.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you said anywhere that 'these type colleges' are representations of middle class anywhere.



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This message was edited by TooCute on 3-11-03 @ 6:22 PM

[Dudeman]

Quote:
this is just an example of where being need blind doesnt
always get you the smartest people. in other words, it isnt
"if you are smart you get in:" rather it is " if you are smart
and/OR your parents could afford you the freedoms to
persue your academic career, then you get in."


You have the beginnings of a point, but your black and
white assertion that only the
upper class go to the elite schools of the nation is flat out
wrong.


Just so I don't get misrepresented, I said "and/OR." (I
knew this would be a problem, that's why i put the "or" in
capital letters.)
Also, I never brought up the concept of upper class.


This message was edited by Dudeman on 3-11-03 @ 9:02 PM

[FiveB247]

Too Cute...how many of these students on financial aid support themselves before they get to college? Obviously, little or few. The resources in which they use to get to these schools are not accessible to most and due to the fact they come from well off families..they are available. Many students may be borrowing money after they get in (once 18)...but they are considered 'upper class'. If you somehow believe in an age of shrinking middle class that the college institutions geared towards higher economic people is growing, you are incorrect. Separation of wealth involves every aspect of society, including colleges.

[TooCute]

Too Cute...how many of these students on financial aid support themselves before they get to college? Obviously, little or few.

How many are independent? Yes. Little or few. But probably little or few (which mean the same thing) high school students are entirely independent, period.

If your actualy question was "how many of these students had jobs in high school" and you think the answer is "little or few", you are very wrong.

In either case, your point is irrelevant to the point I made.

Many students may be borrowing money after they get in (once 18)...but they are considered 'upper class'.

By who? I don't consider $80,000 a year for a family to be upper class. I guess since you wrote it as 'upper class' rather than upper class, you can define the term as you like and convince yourself that you're correct.

If you somehow believe in an age of shrinking middle class that the college institutions geared towards higher economic people is growing, you are incorrect.

???
You've finally constructed a sentence with grammar so poor that even I can't decipher it. Sorry!

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[FiveB247]

Too Cute...having a job while in high school is hardly considered supporting yourself. (It's more like spending money or some savings....not supporting). Therefore, all the students which you claim as financial aid receivers, that is all after the fact. They receive funds, economic support and such from their parents. So obviously, money from rich or well of families would be supporting and helping students getting into college.

I seriously suggest you look into the US government via tax brackets and such, in order to see what and how the classes are configured. You'd be quite surprised. And you'd also be surprised to learn I am correct about these figures.

Ps...Sorry about that last statement...I didn't mean to confuse or bewilder you. It was obviously above or over your head.

[TheMojoPin]

Dude. Seriously. You're so wrong it hurts. This is just really awkward and embarassing.

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[TooCute]

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[FiveB247]

After about 2 seconds of looking this topic up with some research...I found this through a link on the Department of Higher Education. Here are some quick facts for you.Myth: Only the very rich can afford college.

Reality: Nearly 20 percent of traditional-aged undergraduates come from families with income below $25,000 per year. The federal government, states, and institutions all offer financial aid to help low-income students afford college.

*Which means 80% of all college students come from families with incomes about 25K

Myth: The middle class gets socked by college costs -- there's no help for them.

Reality: A wide variety of aid programs are available to help middle-income families, including many grants and scholarships as well as tax incentives and benefits related to higher education. At public 4 year colleges, about 40 percent of students with family income between $40,000 and $80,000 receive grants averaging $2,900. At private institutions, almost 75 percent are awarded grants or scholarships that average $9,300.

*Note they refer to the $40-$80 as the middle class; also making mention of private institutions handing out grants. As I pointed out in another post.they receive financial aid, and such after the fact of getting into college.NOT beforehand. They are supported by their families income. So obviously, a well off or upper class family would have more influence, resources and access to have their child get into such a college.

Myth: Only white people know how to pull the strings to get to college.

Reality: Socio-economic status and previous experience with higher education are much more important in determining who goes to college than race or ethnicity.

Socio-economic status..referring to income of families. .i.e. class.

(http://www.collegeispossible.org/paying/myths.htm)Mojo...you are the one who is incorrect.

Too Cute...I don't know what college you went to, what you studied or such, but obviously in this type of scenario...rationale, logic and such...you got ripped off.

[TheMojoPin]

Alright, seriously, what the point is he trying to make now? I've re-read this thread three times, and each of his responses are set up like he's arguing a point that nobody's really challenging, and it's a point he's seemingly decided to change with each post. WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?!?! TooCute's point seems to be that yes, rich people tend to get a better education because they go to richer (Better) schools...but the best higher education schools are NOT limited to "only" or "mostly" rich kids. It's really that simple. Really. Totally. Seriously. What the hell is FiveB trying to prove?!?

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[TheMojoPin]

*Note they refer to the $40-$80 as the middle class: also making mention of private institutions handing out grants. As I pointed out in another post.they receive financial aid, and such after the fact of getting into college.NOT beforehand. They are supported by their families income. So obviously, a well off or upper class family would have more influence, resources and access to have their child get into such a college.

Like WHAT? By your definition, my parents are "upper class", but I didn't get any financial aid until AFTER I got into college...because that's how college financial aid WORKS. If my parents are so capable of "pulling strings" because they're "upper class", why the hell didn't I get into all the schools I wanted to? Money doesn't always equal influence. It's not that simple. If you're saying that it's who you know that helps you get into college, OF COURSE, THAT'S HOW IT WORKS. That's how the WORLD works! If you "know" someone that can help get you into a particular field or school, either by their reputation or because they work there or provide a lot of funding, of COURSE you're going to use that person as a selling point for yourself to get yourself into that college or job. You'd be stupid not to. Are you trying to say that this is somehow wrong or unfair? Because that's how things have worked for God-knows-how-long.

I mean, what are you really arguing against here? So far TooCute and I agree with basically all of your points...rich kids tend to get a better educaton, a lot of rich kids tend to get into Ivy Leage schools, people with good "connections" tend to have better shots at better colleges, everyone gets their deemed necessary amount of financial aid AFTER you get into college (Why are you seemingly implying that people should be getting this BEFORE they get into college?)...so what are you so peeved about?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-12-03 @ 12:42 PM

[ADF]

What the hell is FiveB trying to prove?!?



That he's intelligent. With his inability to make an understandable sentence, he's in for a rough road.

If his point is that, by and large, rich people have a much easier time getting into prestigious universities at the undergraduate level, I'd agree with him. The example of George W. Bush has already been discussed. Clearly, he had little or no academic merit for attending a school such as Yale. I would venture that such instances are rare, but I seriously doubt that you will find a poor person with low standardized test scores who made it into Yale or Brown (unless you're talking about an athlete, which most Ivy League schools don't need). "Prestigious" schools attained that adjective from attracting the best and the brightest. Having outstanding facilities certainly helps the cause, and if allowing some dullard into your university will gain you a few million in donations, I don't think even the best university is above making the occasional exception.

However, depending on a school's admission policies, it's not impossible for someone in a lower socioeconomic bracket to make into into a top university. Graduate school, especially in technical fields, is different in that schools want to attract the best students in order to advance the various research projects that make them money.

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[TooCute]

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[FiveB247]

Mojo...I agree with your second statement. Many of the points I brought up were in response to Too Cute saying that most students of the ivy league schools/ top schools were not influenced by the economic status or class. I merely disagreed with her and therefore wrote back to counter some things she had posted. That is it. I don't wish to change such processes, etc. I'm pretty sick of talking about this by now, haha.

[TheMojoPin]

You're figures and facts ARE right...but TooCute's argument was based almost solely on the Ivy Leage schools themselves. The info you've culled refers to much wider base of schools than just the 8 Ivy League schools. So it IS like arguing apples with oranges.

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[TooCute]

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[TooCute]

Hey, Mojo, don't argue for me anymore, ok? 'Cause I never said that socioeconomic standing doens't influence a person's ability to get into school :)

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[TheMojoPin]

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I can see I'm no longer needed.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-12-03 @ 1:19 PM

[FiveB247]

I'm don't need a messageboard to try and prove my intelligence to you, nor should anyone for that matter. If you post to try show others you are smart...you're not. If you don't agree with what I've said or how I've said it, ok. But I do find it funny now that Too Cute and Mojo are somewhat trading off. (Are you boy friend and girl friend? boy friend and boy friend or girl friend and girl friend? What?)

[ADF]

I'm don't need a messageboard to try and prove my intelligence to you, nor should anyone for that matter.

Thanks for proving my point for me.

But I do find it funny now that Too Cute and Mojo are somewhat trading off. (Are you boy friend and girl friend? boy friend and boy friend or girl friend and girl friend? What?)



Wha what? I'm sending you to the corner.

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This message was edited by ADF on 3-12-03 @ 2:46 PM

[FiveB247]

ADF, you don't have a point.

[ADF]

ADF, you don't have a point.



Regarding you, my point is that you're arguing in a nonsensical manner. You might have some vague notion of an argument, but you certainly aren't articulating it.

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[FiveB247]

Thanks for your ruling Judge Judy.

[Dewey]

I was raised by a single mom that worked in a factory


I was born down in Alabama
on a farm way back up in the woods.
I was so ragged
folks used to call me Patches.
Papa used to tease me 'bout it
' course, deep down inside he was hurt
'cause he'd done all he could.


Maybe we're related.


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[FMJeff]

I'm don't need a messageboard to try and prove my intelligence to you, nor should anyone for that matter.



I'm don't need to read any more of your posts. They be grammatical nightmares.

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[TheMojoPin]

Well, if he had richer parents, he could've gotten hisself edumacationized.

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[TooCute]

Well, he could always take the bus to the liberry...

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This message was edited by TooCute on 3-12-03 @ 7:05 PM

[grlNIN]

shock poster # 109872

We Aint A Sect, No This Aint No Fucking Faction
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