should people who want war have to fight?

[Arienette]

the other day i was reading something about constitutional amendments that were proposed, but never ratified. one of them would have instituted a popular vote to determine whether or not the country would go to war. in addition, anyone voting in favor of the war would have to enlist.

i personally think this is a great idea. i hear people all the time talking about how they're pro-war and all, yet they would never in a million years go fight themselves. this drives me crazy. if the cause is so worthwhile, then you should be willing to sacrifice yourself for it.

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[Meatball]

I fully support our President, our Administration, Troops and policy of ousting Saddams evil Regime by force now, before he is too powerful to fight conventionally. I would gladly enlist and fight to take part in the evil -cleansing operation.
Unfortunatly, by the time id be ready to kill some of those rodents, the war will be looooong over, democracy will have spread and Peace will reign over the region.
So the honor of fighting goes to those already trained and part of our Armed Forces. And from everything i have read, they are eager, ready and willing to get it on!



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[Cyclops]

I do not think there should ever be a popular vote for war. Remember for good or bad we elect people to represent us, the president included. They know what really is going on, even if they have a hard time getting the point across.
Most of the time the most vocal people are those opposed to something.. war, abortion, etc. They may seem like a majority beacuse the media covers their deomonstrations but I think the vast majority of people 90% or so do not demonstrate.
In this case I think the majority of people generally support what Bush wants done in Iraq.
Should people who want war have to fight? No, thats is what the military is for.

[TheMojoPin]

If Rory reads the board, Ari's post just killed him.

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[Arienette]

i'd like to clarify... when i said that i think this is a great idea, i wasn't necessarily referring to the amendment itself. i don't think it would be a very good idea to leave the declaration of war to a popular vote. our representatives are certainly better equipped than the vast majoiry of the population to make this sort of determination.

i was talking about the idea that people who support war should be willing to fight in one. i just think it's very easy to go around saying that war's a great idea when you personally have nothing at stake. of course the military should fight. but there's also this little thing called the draft. if a draft were to eventually be instituted, it's a whole new game. now we're talking about men being sent to war against their will, men who never wanted to fight and who potentially may not have ever supported it. i think the first people to be sent should be the ones who wanted war so badly when they thought they'd never have to go themselves.

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[TheMojoPin]

In this case I think the majority of people generally support what Bush wants done in Iraq.

Yes. Based on almost daily polls, roughly 55-60% support the war, while 40-45% oppose it. 90% is just crazy talk, tiny dancer.

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[ADF]

True, it's pretty easy to be all gung-ho about going to war when one has nothing more at stake than a slightly higher gas bill. A lot of people join the military thinking solely of the benefits, not taking into account the possibility of losing one's life in a war. In the book Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein, people can only vote if they decide to join the service. How 'bout dem apples.

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[schmega]

ok, on that note, if you oppose the war, or any war, should you be denied the spoils of victory?

[HBox]

ok, on that note, if you oppose the war, or any war, should you be denied the spoils of victory?


Spoils of victory? What is this, the 1600s? I guess I cannot look forward to raping any Iraqi virgins or plundering rare Iraqi spices.

[TheMojoPin]

What spoils? It's not like we're pirates here and they divvy up the "booty" amongst the population. The only thing I could possibly see as being for all of us (And this ISN'T a "war over oil" argument, I don't buy that) are lower gas prices...so unless those opposed to the war all are somehow forced to pay higher gas prices, I don't really so how it would be feasable. Of course, if Bush signs agrees to this pact that Blair suggested that the oil and the deals it brings would be left for the Iraqi people, the whole thing would be moot...

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[Gvac]

Hah! Great point, schmega!

And I don't really understand the thought process of
saying that people who support military action should
join the military. Should all people who believe in
legalized abortion be forced to have abortions? Should
all people who want alcohol and tobacco to be legal
have to drink and smoke?

It's not a logical argument.


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[schmega]

What spoils? It's not like we're pirates here and they divvy up the "booty" amongst the population. The only thing I could possibly see as being for all of us (And this ISN'T a "war over oil" argument, I don't buy that) are lower gas prices...so unless those opposed to the war all are somehow forced to pay higher gas prices, I don't really so how it would be feasable. Of course, if Bush signs agrees to this pact that Blair suggested that the oil and the deals it brings would be left for the Iraqi people, the whole thing would be moot...

you think only pirates grasp the concept of 'spoils'? and its a relevant word in the 21st century. you think lower oil prices would be the only benefit of this war? that's short-sighted. how about a threat eliminated? how about a dictator removed?

i'm for the war. if called upon, i will fight. but as it stands, there are ample troops. i dont think one should HAVE to fight if one supports the war. just like i dont think those who opposes war should be denied the benefits of victory. thats why i asked the question.

[Se7en]

Heinlein's not the best example to use, as people in his day questioned his personal beliefs. Many of them seemed at least quasi-socialist.

And I agree with Gvac - it's not really a logical argument you're making.

That said, I would fight in the war, and a loooong time ago (has to be a year ago) I checked into enlisting, but at the same point in time I was accepted into law school. I weighed the two choices and decided to continue my education.

After I finish, who knows? They have JAG interviews every year at my school.

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[TheMojoPin]

It's not a logical argument.

Exactly. Hence why it wasn't even close to being passed.

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[TheMojoPin]

you think only pirates grasp the concept of 'spoils'? and its a relevant word in the 21st century. you think lower oil prices would be the only benefit of this war? that's short-sighted. how about a threat eliminated? how about a dictator removed?

Wait, wait, wait. Don't try and flip it like that. You presented "spoils" as something that those who oppose a war could be easily deprived off. It wasn't apparent at ALL that you were trying to make some kind of amibguous, "oh, if they didn't fight for the freedom, they don't DESERVE the freedom" point. How the hell could anti-war citizens be "deprived" of a "threat eliminated" or "dictator removed?" And why act all suprised when someone repsonds to something you brought up?

And it's still an interesting thread. Pro-war people apparently get as defensive as anti-war people when confronted as to why they haven't or wouldn't join the millitary in active combat. So maybe everyone isn't that different in the end...

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[Bergalad]

This is a great thread. This discussion reminds me of the debate around the Congress when they were voting to "support" Bush on the Iraq issue. Not too many of the Senators or Representatives had served in the military, and a terribly minute number had children who are serving. I don't think those who support a war should be forced to serve, but they should want to, as should all citizens. As Thomas Paine said long ago:
Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.

Women too. And as Kahlil Gabran said:
Safeguarding the rights of others is the most noble and beautiful end of a human being.





This message was edited by Bergalad on 3-15-03 @ 11:59 PM

[The Blowhard]

I'm sure that many who were drafted during WWII did not want to go.
They did go and they fought and many died for their country. They fought tyranny, they fought for freedom. We should never forget the sacrfices they made. We should honor them and never forget them.
Freedom should never be taken for granted.
This "war" is questionable in my opinion but our military forces serve with loyalty and courage regardless.
God Bless Them.

[HordeKing1]

Many people are of the opinion that Heinlin was a fascist or a socialist based on the characters in the classic book "Starship Tropper" (as opposed to the attrocious movie). Heinlien was much closer to a libertarian who believed that the govenment should have minimal interference in people's lives. He strongly believed people should be responsible for themselves.

Govt (not necessarily military) service for full privilleges of citizenship? Is that such a horrible idea? I don't think so.

It would be a disaster to have a popular vote for war. The idea of the average man on the street, who cannot locate afghanastan, iraq or the US on a map should even influence such a decision is too awful to contemplate.

When my dad enlisted in the army at 19 in WWII, he did so b/c he felt "If we don't stop this evil who will? We have to stand up for what's right." It's a position that far too many people today cannot grasp. It's sad that we have to go to war and it's sad that people will die, but we have to do what is right to protect ourselves and all those scumbucket countries who would be anhiliated w/o our financial and military support.

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[schmega]

You presented "spoils" as something that those who oppose a war could be easily deprived off.

no, thats how YOU interpreted it. as far as i'm concerned, spoils can be tangible or intangible. its certainly difficult, if not impossible, to deny someone intangibles, such as freedom. i asked the original question knowing the answer is 'no'. just like the answer to the thread topic is 'no'.

heckler says it best. support our troops.

[Wormwood]

yes, nothing changes a persons mind more about going to war then telling them that they have to participate in it.

Love is the delusion that one woman differs from another.
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[TheMojoPin]

It was basically said first, best, and most simply as...

Give me liberty, or give me death.

Makes sense to me. If I were drafted, I'd go. I sure as shit wouldn't "want to", but I'd go. I'm not going to try and build it up. Odds are I'd be the worst soldier in the history of the world. But I'd still go.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-16-03 @ 12:26 AM

[LiquidCourage]

Well, not by law, but I'm definitely getting sick and tired of hearing 20 year old guys in perfect physical shape screaming "Let's get those sons of bitches!"

If you believe in it, then fight.

[HBox]

IMO, the real point of this thread is not that idiotic proposed law mentioned, but whether or not supporters of the war are willing to fight for it. Every supporter of the war shouldn't be forced to go to war, but they should at least be willing to go. It comes down to a question: Are you willing to die in this war? If, and this is a huge if, this war drags on much longer than expected and the government needs more people to enlist, will you? If the draft we resinstated for this war and you were drafted, would you have a problem with that? If you support the war and your answer is no, I think there is a huge problem.

It's very easy to send people you'll never know out to die. And its real easy to make yourself feel better about it by "supporting the troops." Everybody should support our troops, no matter how you feel about the war.

[CaptClown]

I would agree with that if everyone voting was required to take Special Forces,Top(Red) Gun training before they could vote. Oh and equip them with Guyver Bio booster armor if they have to go.
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This message was edited by CaptClown on 3-16-03 @ 4:27 AM

[ADF]

Heinlein's not the best example to use, as people in his day questioned his personal beliefs. Many of them seemed at least quasi-socialist.



What do Heinlein's "quasi-socialist" views have to do with the idea contained with his novel? The politics of an author doesn't invalidate the points made within his work.

its certainly difficult, if not impossible, to deny someone intangibles, such as freedom.


It's impossible to deny someone freedom? Tell that to the people of Iraq or North Korea.

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[schmega]

It's impossible to deny someone freedom?

here, yes. here, where one of the spoils of the war for independance was basic freedom. freedom for the folks who didnt want to pay taxes to britian, and freedom for the tories as well. my statement had nothing to do with those 2 countries where no one has that freedom, and no one fought victoriously for it. that was the context of my posts up til then, so interpreting that as a blanket statement for the entire world was your mistake.

[silera]

The United States government has proven that it can deny selective citizens freedom with great skill. It's historic treatment of Blacks, Women, Native Americans, and Japanese citizens among other groups all attest to that.

As for the subject at hand, I believe that it's a great argument. If most people "put up or shut up" I think they'd take the time to actually research the full impact a war would likely have both here and abroad and whether or not that war is really our only option.



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[schmega]

It's historic treatment of Blacks, Women, Native Americans, and Japanese citizens among other groups all attest to that.

yeah, HISTORICALLY this country has denied certain groups their basic freedoms. but they all eventually got it. thats why its IMPOSSIBLE to deny that intangible.

as for putting up or shutting up, over half the nation supports the war. would you like 130 million of us to go fight? yeah, great argument.

[TheMojoPin]

yeah, HISTORICALLY this country has denied certain groups their basic freedoms. but they all eventually got it.

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[silera]

yeah, HISTORICALLY this country has denied certain groups their basic freedoms. but they all eventually got it. thats why its IMPOSSIBLE to deny that intangible.

By agreeing that the government has succesfully denied groups their freedoms, you just concurred that it is quite possible to deny intangibles.

as for putting up or shutting up, over half the nation supports the war. would you like 130 million of us to go fight? yeah, great argument.
That wasn't my argument. We'd have a better educated populace if people had to put something on the table in order to form their opinion about the war. Having people that vote for war enlist in our military wouldn't necessarily imply that all of them would ship out.

I think too many Americans, myself included, form our opinions without fully grasping the effects our actions will have on our society as well as the international community. American foreign policy has proven time and time again to be short sighted. Our might is right mentality has come back to kick us in the ass time and time again. Saddam is just the latest leader that the United States helped put in power and now regrets.


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This message was edited by silera on 3-16-03 @ 11:30 AM

[schmega]

By agreeing that the government has succesfully denied groups their freedoms, you just concurred that it is quite possible to deny intangibles.

no. if they all eventually get it, then you're not TRULY denying them, are you? so it really is impossible.

[Doogie]

How about we just do what Isreal, Germany and other countries do. Have MANDATORY military service for EVERY person at 18 years of age. Therefore we get both the poser/wanna be hippies mixed in the service together. Let them see what war games are like and attempt to annihilate each other. I think misunderstanding is they key to the whole military situation.

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[silera]

no. if they all eventually get it, then you're not TRULY denying them, are you? so it really is impossible.

The argument is that our government cannot deny its citizens intangible such as freedom etc. Our government has done so in the past and should it wish to do so in the future, it can.

I'm not going to make this an argument about race relations or women's equality, but all US citizens are far from equal as far as the democratic process goes.

Our country is a democracy in spirit, and in practice (as do most forms of government and religion) we fall short of our goals.



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[schmega]

it can

no, it cant. just like you cant go back in time, our gov't cant take away freedoms. not permanently, anyway. a lot of people gave their lives to give us what we have today. there's no way that can be taken from us. any of us. sooner or later, we all get it.

[silera]

our gov't cant take away freedoms. not permanently, anyway.

Take a look at the US Patriot Act enacted after 9/11 or the proposed Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003, or simply try smoking a cigarette in a NYC bar after March 30, 2003 and come back to me.


www.publicintegrity.org


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This message was edited by silera on 3-16-03 @ 11:59 AM

[TheMojoPin]

our gov't cant take away freedoms

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[schmega]

Take a look at the US Patriot Act enacted after 9/11 or the proposed Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003, or simply try smoking a cigarette in a NYC bar after March 30, 2003 and come back to me

those laws are proposed and passed to protect people. maybe not everyone, but a good majority. even if they're flawed, they have good intentions. yeah, i know the road to hell is paved with it.

nobody's taking away your freedom to smoke. just dont do it where there are lots of people who'd rather not suck second hand smoke. when smoking becomes illegal altogether, then we got a problem.

all i'm saying is this: what our government has given to one man, they will have to give it to all men. and when they do, the government wont be able to take it back, because they work FOR us.

[DarkHippie]

How about we just do what Israel, Germany and other countries do. Have MANDATORY military service for EVERY person at 18 years of age.
Now there are some wonderful countries to model ourselves after.

I don't think being pro-war should require you to fight, just like being pro-peace requires you to protest. But it does (on both sides of the issue) bring up the question "how dedicated are you to your cause?"

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[Se7en]

I can't tell you how proud I was of Mojo when he said he'd fight if drafted.

[Not that I thought you'd run to Canada or anything.]

You're a true American. I salute you, sir.

Therefore we get both the poser/wanna be hippies mixed in the service together.

This might be beneficial, as I go to school with a lot of those types of people, and serving in the military, even for a brief period of time, would likely teach them some respect for our armed forces (some of the people I know are so anti-war they're not even following the "I support our troops, I don't support our leadership" argument....it's just blanket resentment....).

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[TheMojoPin]

[Not that I thought you'd run to Canada or anything.]

Dude, Canada is WAY overrated. I would have taken the 'Nam any day. But thanks.

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[Death Metal Moe]

I'm pro Choice but does that mean I should go to abortion clinics for my turn to perform one?

This is a retarded argument.

But yes, if there was a draft I would still be in favor of a war for our security.

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[Bergalad]

Saddam is just the latest leader that the United States helped put in power and now regrets.

Come again?

[DarkHippie]

Come again?
I think he means "gave aid to." we supported Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war as the lesser of two evils.

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[silera]

I think he means...

You're right, but I don't have a penis, much to my dismay.



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[CaptClown]

I can't tell you how proud I was of Mojo when he said he'd fight if drafted.

If he dodges what's the wprse thing that could happen to him? Get elected President?

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[Doogie]

This might be beneficial, as I go to school with a lot of those types of people, and serving in the military, even for a brief period of time, would likely teach them some respect for our armed forces

I could not agree with you more...and as for modeling our selves after these wonderful countries. Let us not forget that Germany is Germany. NOT Nazi Germany. I feel that doing the requirement thing would create a respect for the armed services that just is not there. And look at it this way, some people would be learning a skill or two while in the military. Something that seems to be vanishing rapidly in our country...

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[FiveB247]

The US has and tries to spread democratic values (although it doesn't always support them in some cases) throughout the world. But simply spreading the ideas and beliefs doesn't mean it will be successful or that it will be held in high regards by the people you are bringing to. Many nations in which we have tried to democratize have been failures in practice. By removing Saddam from Iraq doesn't mean democracy will be achieved. It's simply removing a tyrant from control, who gets control after the fact remains to be seen. Nations all over the world have similar results (Africa, South Asia and South/ Central America) and obviously, the nations in the world are mostly not democratic.

As for the original argument, the leaders, rich investors and officials are the decision makers. If I may rip off Ozzy and the song 'War Pigs'...

"Politicians hide themselves away. They only started the war. Why should they go out and fight? They leave that role to the poor, yeah."

[travis151]

There is no doubt if I wasn't in a long term relationship I was going to join our military after 9/11 why because I didn't want my future children to grow up in a world where they had to fear for their lives because of how they lived. But I didn't have to because there was already a fine group of Americans protecting mine and your asses. Time and time again people volunteer to fight for what we believe in. I can't stand people who say if you want war then go over to Iraq and fight well if you truly want to help all those civilians in Iraq go and help them out ever hear of the Peace Corp. You people could never grasp why and how this country stays free. Also if it wasn't for Isreal bombing Iraq's nuclear plant in 81' there is not doubt this world would be a more dangerous place, and oh yeah the world was pissed at them for doing it( includingthe U.S. )but they save millions because they did.

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[HBox]

You people could never grasp why and how this country stays free.


Who are these people you refer too? Those who disagree with you?

[Arienette]

I don't really understand the thought process of
saying that people who support military action should
join the military. i am not suggesting that everyone who supports the military should join it. i think it's important that people (all people, civilians included) support the military. however, this is not the same as supporting a specific act of war. people are very willing to risk other people's lives. i think people should just consider what they're putting up when they decide to get behind something as serious as a war

Should all people who believe in
legalized abortion be forced to have abortions? Should
all people who want alcohol and tobacco to be legal have to drink and smoke? who's not making a logical argument here? i'm pretty sure it's not me. i never once suggested that we make war illegal; where does this whole "making things legal = having to do them" thing come from? all i am saying is that it gets tiresome to hear people being so for the war when they themselves would never be willing to sacrifice anything for it.

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[ADF]

here, yes. here, where one of the spoils of the war for independance was basic freedom. freedom for the folks who didnt want to pay taxes to britian, and freedom for the tories as well. my statement had nothing to do with those 2 countries where no one has that freedom, and no one fought victoriously for it. that was the context of my posts up til then, so interpreting that as a blanket statement for the entire world was your mistake.



What? Ever heard of jail? Freedom is a relative term. To say that it's impossible to take away freedom, even in this country, is an absurd statement. One day I may be "free" to download music from Napster, the next day I may not be. One day I may be able to drive 65 on the highways, one day I may only be able to drive 55. Silera has already brought up much better points than this. Any country is capable of losing its freedoms.

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[The Blowhard]

Yes we live in a nation that has many faults, but where else would you rather live?
Find me a better place and I'm there. Anytime I travel the world I wanna kiss the ground when I arrive home.
Let's face it: the world is an evil place but hey, we ain't that bad.

[erole]

...agreed Heckler. give me usa over anything, anywhere else.
How about we just do what Isreal, Germany and other countries do. Have MANDATORY military service for EVERY person at 18 years of age. Therefore we get both the poser/wanna be hippies mixed in the service together. Let them see what war games are like and attempt to annihilate each other. I think misunderstanding is they key to the whole military situation.

Israel does this because they literally live in a place that is surrounded by enemies...and if not, bordered by one big ass sea. They do that for their survival
And Germany does it because...well, because they are Germany. And if it's one thing Germany likes, it's a World War every 40 or 50 years...might as well be prepared.
OK, that was a joke, but the idea of having manditory military service at a certain age is an idea worth looking into. It doesn't have to be 7 days a week just something that gets a citizen doing something for their country. The citizen would get the knowledge that our freedom is in a constant state of flux and our preparation for defending that freedom is real and essential. It gives an appreciaiton of what we have, how we got it, and that we are all one country.
This idea also has side benefits...having all walks of people rub elbows, forces the idea of teamwork and citizenship, decreases the overweight problem the nation is facing, knowledge of a trade or learned job skill, and most importantly, further solidifies a national identity and union of people in a direct way.

As to this whole should people who want war have to fight thing...no. it seems unfair. seems even wrong. But it is a trade off which occurs in the process of our general freedom, and the military/government system we have in place.

Idealisticly, I agree that people who want war should fight. Say there is a draft. I don't want the war, yet, MY child goes off to war. My next door neighbor wants the war, in a gung ho, childish manner, who has a child the same age as mine, but stays HOME. My child dies, and his child is fine and keeps on blabbering about killin' the enemy. Is that fair? Absolutly not. Morally wrong all the way. It's unfairness.

But, can the senario happen? And isn't the senario legal? This talk of freedom, implied freedom, do we have complete freedom?, can our freedoms be taken away? Listen to ADF, freedom is an idea. You can't box an idea in. Like they said in the movie Gladiator about the "glory of Rome" and that idea of Rome being free and for the people. Anything more than a whisper about it, and it would vanish.

Oh, our freedoms can be taken away. You want clear and unrefutable proof...check your Constitution. Why do you think we can bear arms? Not because we are free to do it, it is to protect our freedom...even from our own government...yep...we bear arms if one day it all goes to shit and we need revolution again. Revolution. It's how we came to be.

Anywho...it looks like we are going to war with Iraq...but like Chris Rock said - war is between two sides that can possibly defeat each other..what we're doing is jumpin' Iraq. I agree with Bush, we need to take care of things now. Even if I disagreed, I'm still backing up that grunt who is braving the heat, cold, fear, bullets, and possible gas attacks. Personally, if I could, I'd be that soldier. I'll put up when it comes to my opinion, and I'll uphold my beliefs and freedom with a gun in my hand and the flag waving above me.

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[RageCage]

In Germany, you can choose military service or civil service. And if you graduate high school, college is free. That doesn't sound too bad to me. Although I agree that the U.S. is the best country to live in and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, I do think that we could learn and incorporate ideas from other countries. We shouldn't ignore good ideas just because they aren't our own.

Kool and the mother fuckin gang.

[Doogie]

And if you graduate high school, college is free

There is a price to this 'free' college you speak of. German people pay like 60 percent taxes for that 'free' college and 'free' healthcare...

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[HBox]

There is a price to this 'free' college you speak of. German people pay like 60 percent taxes for that 'free' college and 'free' healthcare...



Yeah. God forbid people have to pay high taxes for something that benefits everybody.

[FiveB247]

Just because some people feel that things like health care, education and other social expenditures should be modified, updated or changed doesn't mean you have to go to some place better to find success. People want to fix and update such items for the general good of the population and wish to do it in the country they love. Associating such ideas with leaving in order to find better policies is a silly argument.

[TheMojoPin]

There is a price to this 'free' college you speak of. German people pay like 60 percent taxes for that 'free' college and 'free' healthcare...

In America, the estimates are that we'd have to pay 35%-45% to accomplish the same. Personally, I'd have no problem doing it, as long as the minimum wage was more "fluid" to the shifting economy, or we attempted some kind of a shot at a living wage.

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[Bergalad]

In Germany, you can choose military service or civil service. And if you graduate high school, college is free. That doesn't sound too bad to me.

You can do that right here, even without the graduating high school part. The Army has several education programs for those who serve, including 100% tuition assistance for while you are in, $26,500 to $50,000 more for college when you leave the service, or up to $65,000 in student loan repayments.

[phixion]

Okay this is what i want all you people who are pro war to think about: I want u to realize that people will die because of this war. And i want u to picture a mother recieving a flag in place of her son. I want u to see her face and tell her it was worth it. I want you to see her, when she learns that her son has died. Then i want u to switch places with her. Imagine ur child dying over something that he or she never agreed with. Im sorry, call me selfish, but i would gladly watch an enitre nation suffer so that i can live my life with my child, and then watch my child grow up and become sumthin better than i am.

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[RageCage]

$26,500 to $50,000 more for college when you leave the service, or up to $65,000 in student loan repayments.


That sounds like alot of money but it wouldn't cover four years at a decent school. Also, those amounts are subject to change based on your economic background, thats why they always include the words, "up to."

Kool and the mother fuckin gang.

[schmega]

What? Ever heard of jail? Freedom is a relative term. To say that it's impossible to take away freedom, even in this country, is an absurd statement. One day I may be "free" to download music from Napster, the next day I may not be. One day I may be able to drive 65 on the highways, one day I may only be able to drive 55. Silera has already brought up much better points than this. Any country is capable of losing its freedoms.

you're not free to download music that you didnt pay for. thats illegal. you go to that place you like to remind me of called 'jail'. and when you break the law, THEN your freedom's taken away, justifiably so. and when you've gotta slow down 10 miles in the highway, its for the safety of all motorist, just like all these smoking bans are for the safety of the majority of us who dont smoke. there's our democracy. where majority rules. you're still free to drive. you're still free to smoke. you just have to do it within the context of the law. the only 'freedom' you've lost is doing this where you endanger others.

consider Prohibition. they wanted to take your liquor away, but they failed miserably. the result was everyone of age could drink. not just the ones who OPPOSED Prohibition.

[silera]

I don't want to make this go off track, but about 10 people in every 100K that have never been exposed to second hand smoke get lung cancer. About 12 people in every 100K that have been exposed to second hand smoke get lung cancer. The difference between the two falls in the margin of error when conducting these studies. In effect, all the propoganda about second hand smoke is bullshit.



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<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
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[phixion]

and when you break the law, THEN your freedom's taken away, justifiably so


oh thats rite no innocent man has ever gone to jail.
Ruben Carter just fooled the New Jersey Supremem Court,
and hes just one of the thousands of voices not being heard.....

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[FiveB247]

Silera, Here's a good statistic for you if you are for smoking. 10 million people will have cancer in the US by the year 2010. Smoke up and pay for high prices for death...all sponsored by the government...whoo hoo..

[silera]

Silera, Here's a good statistic for you if you are for smoking. 10 million people will have cancer in the US by the year 2010. Smoke up and pay for high prices for death...all sponsored by the government...whoo hoo..

What does that even mean?

I know that smoking is dangerous for me. However, the entirety of second hand smoke propoganda is bullshit. Furthermore, skin cancer is the most common form of cancer, but the government continually fails to promote legislation that would curb the effects of ozone layer deplition.

I'd also venture to say, that there are more respiratory ailments caused by the fuel emmissions in large cities than from a couple of cigarettes in a bar, but I can't cite a study to back it up. Possibly, instead of wasting money promoting bullshit half assed claims that second hand smoke is dangerous, we could finish what was started during the 70's oil crisis and find alternative methods for fuel that would both be less detrimental to the environment and make us less dependant on other countries coughIRAQcough.


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<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
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[schmega]

hes just one of the thousands of voices not being heard.....

well he apparently go through to you. so do something about it. and with any luck, the government will give him back what they shouldnt, and ultimately cant, take away: his freedom. much thanks to people like you.



This message was edited by schmega on 3-17-03 @ 5:30 PM

[travis151]

I want people to be put in the shoes of a Iraqi mother who's CHILD was just gassed to death by Saddam Hussien and whos husband was shot to death because he tried to stop it. For once we the U.S. is trying to stop this type of MONSTER and once again people try to be so selfish to think these type of dictators will just stop and listen and will disarm. Honestly how can't you not justify stopping Saddam. Wait maybe the 150 U.N. inspectors could possibly cover the entire country to find these weapons... give me a break its impossible. Stop defending this monster he's killed millions . Don't worry you will live your lifes in freedom because our country is standing up for ourselves.

Red Sox=More Better

This message was edited by travis151 on 3-18-03 @ 12:42 PM

[Death Metal Moe]

Where have all the dick jokes gone?


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[TheMojoPin]

Wait maybe the 150 U.N. inspectors could possibly cover the entire country to find these weapons...

But why are people talking like the only two options are, one: send in far too few inspectors...or, two: invade with the full force of our American millitary might?

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[Death Metal Moe]

Inspections DO NOT WORK.

Christ. Are you people blind and deaf? The inspectors
made NO REAL progress. They just found what the Iraqis
LET them see. And the would have continued to string the
UN along if not for George W Bush and Tony Blair. Good
for them.

The rest of the Saddam fan Club can sit the fuck down and
watch us clean up....again.


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[TheMojoPin]

Not with only a few dozen inspectors there. Flood the country with those fuckers.

Dammit Moe, being a Linkin Park fan has got you thinking that everything's "one step closer to the edge...AND I'M ABOUT BREAK!!!" WHUT-WHUT-WHUT?!?!?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-17-03 @ 7:00 PM

[FiveB247]

Silera...what does that even mean? You mentioned about 2nd hand smoke and how it doesn't effect people. So I stated a fact about cancer. Obviously impacted by cigarette smoking.

Here's another fact for you from the World Heath Organization. By the year 2025 10 million people will die per year from cigarettes and the tobacco industry. 9 million of the people will be from poor, undeveloped nations.

As for your mentions of environmental issues, energy solutions. There is no serious change in such policy due to the fact that the government knows there is no profit from it. Bush just recently approved research to continue about global warming for 5 yrs before solid policy and changes are made upon industries. (such as green house gases and such). Most scientists say the causes of waiting could result from bad outcomes to catastrophic. We'll have to wait to see what happens I guess.

[FUNKMAN]

In effect, all the propoganda about second hand smoke is bullshit.



but just to be safe I installed a few "secondhand smoke alarms"
:)

I would just say you have to judge people on an individual basis and when you hear them talking in a "pro-war" manner, are they venting, hateful, or truly feeling the cause is justified.

As other people mentioned we have a Country that contains a Government, Military, and Citizens(throw a few illegals in there). And each are there to serve a purpose, to obey the laws, protect, and govern.

It sounds like you were venting a teeny bit, but your point was taken.


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[ADF]

you're not free to download music that you didnt pay for. thats illegal. you go to that place you like to remind me of called 'jail'. and when you break the law, THEN your freedom's taken away, justifiably so. and when you've gotta slow down 10 miles in the highway, its for the safety of all motorist, just like all these smoking bans are for the safety of the majority of us who dont smoke. there's our democracy. where majority rules. you're still free to drive. you're still free to smoke. you just have to do it within the context of the law. the only 'freedom' you've lost is doing this where you endanger others.


Look, you're missing my point. I agree with you in that an American citizen, on average, has more freedom than an Iraqi citizen. We don't have complete freedom (otherwise known as anarchy). My point is that freedoms can be given and taken away for whatever reason. To say that it can't happen in the United States is completely incorrect.

On topic... the military isn't for everyone, but I wouldn't mind some sort of mandatory public service once you graduate high school or turn eighteen. A little worldly experience is a good thing.

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[Arienette]

Stop defending this monster he's killed millions ok, back the train up for a second here. who's defending saddam hussein? this is a discussion (mostly, anyway) about those americans who support the war, but who would not be willing to fight in it. i don't remember anything about defending hussein. whichever way your opinion falls (and i'm guessing that's pro-war), you're way off target.

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This message was edited by Arienette on 3-17-03 @ 9:25 PM

[silera]

Silera...what does that even mean? You mentioned about 2nd hand smoke and how it doesn't effect people. So I stated a fact about cancer. Obviously impacted by cigarette smoking.


Second hand smoke does not cause cancer.

That's what I said.

You are free to believe otherwise. However, you will be wrong.




"Passive Smoking Does Cause Lung Cancer, Do Not Let Them Fool You." That's the deceptive headline of a March 1998 press release from the World Health Organization. The WHO examined lung cancer patients in seven European countries and found "no association between childhood exposure to environmental tobacco smoke and lung cancer risk." For non-smoking adult workers and non-smoking spouses of smokers, WHO researchers concluded that "neither increased risk was statistically significant."

An even greater deception came from a landmark 1993 report issued by the Environmental Protection Agency, which proclaimed that ETS is a dangerous carcinogen that causes 3,000 deaths annually. Five years later, a federal judge lambasted the EPA for "cherry picking" the data, excluding studies that "demonstrated no association between ETS and cancer," and withholding "significant portions of its findings and reasoning in striving to confirm its ... hypothesis." A more damning assessment is difficult to imagine.

That's not the main point, you might insist. Maybe secondhand smoke doesn't kill people; but how about the damage to individuals with pre-existing asthma, respiratory infections, or skin or eye allergies? (Never mind that automobile exhaust fumes can do more damage in a couple of minutes than outdoor smoking can do in a decade.) Listen to 1994 congressional testimony from the Congressional Research Service, the non-partisan reference arm of the Library of Congress: "The statistical evidence does not appear to support a conclusion that there are substantial health effects from passive smoking."
- Robert A. Levy is senior fellow in constitutional studies at the Cato Institute in Washington, DC.


Please read this before you spew more WHO fabricated numbers at me.



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<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
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[ADF]

Second-hand smoke may not give me cancer, but it makes my hair smell like ass and my mouth taste like an ashtray after a night out at a bar.

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[silera]

Second-hand smoke may not give me cancer, but it makes my hair smell like ass and my mouth taste like an ashtray after a night out at a bar.

I can't argue with you on that one.

:(


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[FiveB247]

First off, I never argued your point about 2nd hand smoke. To be honest with you, I don't know the research or studies explaining who it effects or how much/ little. I posted legitimate statistics from the WHO regarding cigarette smoking and cancer, not 2nd hand smoke. The numbers I presented are not fabricated at all, it's 100% factual regarding direct cigarette smoking.

[Johnny Fontane]

this is a discussion (mostly, anyway) about those americans...who would not be willing to fight...


Back to topic. I support the war, but I'm not willing to fight. Why? Because I know I'd be horrible at it. You could train me for an eternity, but I'd still suck. And there are thousands like me.

If I suck at baseball, it's funny, but if I suck at combat, I put the lives of others at risk.

I support technology, but I'm not willing to fix your computer. I don't know the first thing about fixing computers, and I don't want to break your computer just to show you that I'm not afraid to try and fix your computer.

Mr. Corleone is Johnny's Godfather. To the Italian people, that is a very religious, sacred, close relationship.

[silera]

You run around in circles.

I'm paraphrasing but schmega said that the reason for the ban against smoking was to keep from harming others. I.E.: Laws were enacted that ban smoking in public spaces to protect non-smokers from getting cancer, because second hand smoke causes cancer.

Now you're saying you quoted this WHO information to show that cigarette smoking, not second hand smoking, causes cancer. However, if these laws were enacted to protect smokers from getting cancer, then why not ban cigarettes altogether?
I posted legitimate statistics from the WHO regarding cigarette smoking and cancer, not 2nd hand smoke. The numbers I presented are not fabricated at all, it's 100% factual regarding direct cigarette smoking.

Who's to say this research is legitimate when the other studies WHO has performed regarding smoking have been biased and failed to prove their intended hypothesis.

I don't trust anyone that tells me they can see the future.

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This message was edited by silera on 3-17-03 @ 10:08 PM

[HordeKing1]

The parents of American soldiers killed in this war will feel intense grief, the worst kind in the world - outliving a child.

However, they're in the same position as the parents of kids killed in WWII.

The war is necessary, and that's the source of solace for these parents. And of course, the potential millions of lives that the war saved.

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[Captain Rooster]

Read Johnny Got His Gun


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This message was edited by LTRooster on 3-17-03 @ 10:24 PM

[Johnny Fontane]

The war is necessary


I'm still holding out hope that Saddam will be taken out by his own people in the hours to come.

Mr. Corleone is Johnny's Godfather. To the Italian people, that is a very religious, sacred, close relationship.

[FiveB247]

Silera....who's to say any study, research, etc is then valid. Obviously pending on the source, some are valid and some aren't. And you saying you don't trust anyone who can predict the future? That's virtually the entire human civilization, (government, media, organizations, etc) or at least how things are based upon. Good luck with that whole thing....

[Arienette]

I support the war, but I'm not willing to fight. Why? Because I know I'd be horrible at it. You could train me for an eternity, but I'd still suck. And there are thousands like mewell, this is one of the first good points i think i've read in all of this. my response is just this: there are other ways to be involved with a war than combat. i don't know much about it personally, and i'm not suggesting you run out and do them, but there are ways. that said, i did title this thread "... have to fight?", so i guess i begged this response.

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[Bergalad]

And you saying you don't trust anyone who can predict the future?

I can't wait to see the graphics Mojo finds for this gem...

[TheMojoPin]

Read Johnny Got His Gun

Or All Quiet On The Western Front.

And you saying you don't trust anyone who can predict the future?

"Great SCOTT!!! You mean I don't have the face of an ANGEL?!?!"

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[The Chairman]

I only wish I was young enough to enlist and fight and perhaps die for my country.

I would gladly support that amendment!

There should also be an amendment that all those people who are not willing to support our country and die to protect it should promptly LEAVE it permanently!

Yeah that's the ticket...if you want war you have to fight and you get to live in the USA. If you don't want war, you lose your citizenship.

People who are anti-war take our freedoms for granted. Go live in France or Iraq!

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[phixion]

There should also be an amendment that all those people who are not willing to support our country and die to protect it should promptly LEAVE it permanently!


i would refuse to parttake in this war. just as i would refuse to parttake in the war against drugs. infact i would be convicted of treason, during the war against drugs.

im not saying i wouldnt die for my country, im just saying i wouldnt die for my country over this. take me back to WW2 and ill run in there with a blunt in mouth and gun in hand. but this war, to me, is not necessary. i have no problem with necessary war. i would join necessary war without second thought. if my country is in danger ill battle til i die, but i dont see the danger.

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[FiveB247]

That's absurd....we don't live in Sparta for gods sake! People have different professions...some are soldiers cause they choose to be and some aren't....how tough is that to encompass. I think we should make an amendment that everyone has to be a mailman at some point in their life. Everyone has to get mail in the country, right? Any anyone who is anti-american that doesn't want to deliver mail for his country should be deported.....So why not? ...ugh.

[TheMojoPin]

Kaga, you didn't say that with NEARLY enough passion, blind determination and unwavering patriotism. I want to see the tears well and your lip quiver EVER so slightly when saluting that flag, dammit...next time you'll be shot at dawn and buried at a crossroads. Now get out of my sight.

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