Deadline: Bush, Allies give U.N. 24 hours - Diplomacy ends tomorrow

[Se7en]

http://www.cnn.com/

Unfortunately, that's just a link to the front page of CNN, but as of yet the information is still fresh and has not yet been updated.

The meeting in the Azores has ended, and the U.S., along with their Coalition of the Willing, have put an ultimatem forward: if by the end of tomorrow, Monday, March 17, 2003, the U.N. has not made some sort of sign that they are willing to budge on the Iraq situation, than diplomacy will be at an end.

More information on the meeting here:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/sprj.irq.main/index.html

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I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

"I was here before the oceans turned black with life, and when the deserts are white with death I will remain."
---Saint Iago

[Death Metal Moe]

FINALLY!!!!!!

The only thing I have disagreed with Bush on with this topic is how LONG he's waited to take the coalition of the willing nations into Iraq to prove that SOMEONE in the world MEANT what they said in resolition 1441.

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[TheMojoPin]

Coalition of the Willing

This sounds like the gayest Marvel Comics crossover that Jim Shooter never put out in the 80's.

Hell, that's even faggier than "Contest of Champions".

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[Se7en]

I wish they had gone with the name "The Superpowers", to sort of capture a whole Dusty Rhodes / Nikita Koloff 80s NWA vibe.

Or even "MegaPowers" would have been cool, a Hogan / Savage homage.

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I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

"I was here before the oceans turned black with life, and when the deserts are white with death I will remain."
---Saint Iago

[high fly]

"Superpowers" beats "Bushwhackers", I guess.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

If it had just somehow involved the phrase, "..and his Howlin' Commandos!", I would have been just fine.

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[Cyclops]

Finally, Less talk more action

[FiveB247]

Diplomacy should be used lightly when in these terms. Making high and unrealistic demands isn't exactly working towards a solution. Atleast it will be over soon...and hopefully with little damage and human cost.

[Death Metal Moe]

Diplomacy should be used lightly when in these terms. Making high and unrealistic demands isn't exactly working towards a solution.


No, this IS STILL Diplomacy. This is the End Game, to use another media "Buzz" word, of the 12 years and 17 UN resolutions chock full of failed diplomacy.

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[jimmyd]

Yeah...diplomacy hasn't been working so well lately. Let's go in, get it done, and move on to the next issue. Diplomacy is a good idea, but it doesn't always work in real life. Saddam had plenty of chances, and he blew it.

-James

-James

[jimmyd]

Yeah...diplomacy hasn't been working so well lately. Let's go in, get it done, and move on to the next issue. Diplomacy is a good idea, but it doesn't always work in real life. Saddam had plenty of chances, and he blew it.

-James

-James

[FUNKMAN]

you would have to believe that Saddam is gonna go into hiding...

do you feel he would go down with the ship?

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[reeshy]

Let's not forget one thing. Let's say a prayer for all of our servicemen and women who are going into harm's way in the next several days. God, I get the shivers when I remember my time in the service waiting for things to happen. These people are facing things that I can't even imagine. God bless them!!!

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[Cyclops]

So true Reshy, we can all sit and talk all day about the upcoming war but its the people over their in the Gulf who will be doing the fighting. God bless em all.....

[TheMojoPin]

Yeah...diplomacy hasn't been working so well lately. Let's go in, get it done, and move on to the next issue.

But this is the exact WRONG kind of mentality that is needed here. If we're going to go ahead with this and establish a fully-functioning and stable democratic government in Iraq (Or at least a reasonable model of one), it's going to require at least several years of dedicated millitary involvement and financial support. The absolute worst thing we could do at this point is just to "go in, get it done, and move on." Otherwise you end up like Afghanistan, which outside of the major cities is in complete anarchy, has nothing to do with the newly installed government, and last year had their highest export of heroin EVER. Yet if you ask plenty of people and they think that we're "done" in Afghanistan. Do it RIGHT, dammit.

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[FiveB247]

It is obvious Saddam would sooner go down with his country then to be removed otherwise.

I also wanted to make one other cynical comment. It's obvious no one wants civilians and servicemen to be hurt. I think everyone can agree to that. But do we really need to mention god in the discussion when part of the reason we are supposed to be fighting is due to religious extremists and fundamentalists? I find it a bit absurd honestly.

[Lummox]

Saddam would rather go down with his country??? Iraq as a whole is NOT the target! The target is Saddam, and he wants to bring everything down with him. Do me a favor and read the biography of Adolf Hitler by John Toland and compare that with the life history of Saddam Hussein- with the exception of dates and geography, their stories are IDENTICAL.. One lesson we learn from history is that people NEVER learn from history!!!


Peace through superior firepower...

[FiveB247]

In case you didn't happen to see the interview with Saddam. He specifically stated he would not leave Iraq or give up his powers. I understand the beliefs of people like Hitler, etc...but you should also realize these type of people consider themselves 'the country'. Saddam also stated in his interview that he considers himself a patriot to Iraq and him leaving would be considered a traitor to his homeland. I by no means agree with such a tyrant...but his words obviously speak of his mindset. And if you recall history...people like Hitler, Mussolini, etc...they go down with the ship....not surrender and such. Saddam would sooner be killed with all of his armies to try and make some sort of statement to the world regarding the US hostilities towards Iraq and his people.

[Stalker Catty]

This sounds like the gayest Marvel Comics crossover that Jim Shooter never put out in the 80's. A Jim Shooter reference? =:O

Someone's showing off their Isle of Misfit Toys citizenship. ;)

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LIVIN' LA VIDA DORKA!

[TheMojoPin]

Just wait for it...Archie Goodwin and Ann Nocenti are just aorund the corner...80's Marvel hacks, UNITE!!!

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[ADF]

by no means agree with such a tyrant...but his words obviously speak of his mindset. And if you recall history...people like Hitler, Mussolini, etc...they go down with the ship....not surrender and such.


I dunno. I get the feeling that Hussein is a coward at heart. Like a lot of despots, he talks tough, but if we go after him in earnest, he'll hightail it outta there in a jiffy. He knows that there was a lot of criticism of the president in this country for not getting him the first time and that there's no chance we'd let that happen again. I wouldn't be surprised if he runs before the bombing even starts and then claims he's protecting the lives of his people or somesuch nonsense.

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[Spank Daddy]

do we really need to mention god in the discussion

people like Hitler, Mussolini

I wish that you could find the caps key and show some respect to others when typing God............you seem to have no problem using it with tyrants and murderers.

[erole]

you would have to believe that Saddam is gonna go into hiding...

do you feel he would go down with the ship?

no way. saddam is one wack job of a character. listen, i read that he makes people wash themselves before they see him because he's some kind of germ-o-phobe. The man loves his virgin women only because he thinks he won't get some disease from them. This is a guy who freaks at any type of unrest within his country...his solution everytme is to wipe people out because he is fanatic with not just staying in power - staying alive. this man has a EXTREME problem with death and disease. he would rather see himself alive than his country blown to smithereens.
remember, this is the same guy that watched his country burn during the Gulf War and only surrounded his own palaces with civilians. he would flee. there is no love of country...it's all about him in power and staying alive. if he can't have power, he'll stay alive.

Do me a favor and read the biography of Adolf Hitler by John Toland and compare that with the life history of Saddam Hussein- with the exception of dates and geography, their stories are IDENTICAL..
Excellent point. in another post somewhere, i mentioned the atrocities in Saddams Anfal campaign, which was the deliberate genocide of Kurds in Northern Iraq. I challange all to read up on what happened there, how they killed those people, and how they used code words for the campaign...it is chillingly CHILLINGLY identical to Hitlers extermination of Jews in WWII.

Keep talkin' buddays, keep bringing the questions and comments...this is how we grow, become knowledgable, and think.
(sorry, it's the teacher in me)

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[Bergalad]

regarding the US hostilities towards Iraq and his people.

Interesting way you phrased that. A telling statement if there ever was one.

[Se7en]

I also wanted to make one other cynical comment. It's obvious no one wants civilians and servicemen to be hurt. I think everyone can agree to that. But do we really need to mention god in the discussion when part of the reason we are supposed to be fighting is due to religious extremists and fundamentalists? I find it a bit absurd honestly.

There is a difference in invoking a deity to protect the lives of others, and an invoking one to justify the slaughter of all of those who a) don't believe in your deity, b) are Jewish, c) are different in any way from you.

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I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

"I was here before the oceans turned black with life, and when the deserts are white with death I will remain."
---Saint Iago

[FiveB247]

Does it matter if I write GOD or god? Not to me. This is a messageboard..not your place of religious practice. Write 'GOD' as you please, and I will write 'god' as I please. I don't know how any of you feel....but people like Saddam, Hitler and such have more of a direct impact on people's lives then any god (AND notice I said direct, not indirect).

Bergalad, The words you highlighted that I wrote were stated in reference to what Saddam believes. Not me. Don't take what I say out of context.

Seven.. Obviously the circumstances are different, but don't you find it hypocritical that in our war for terrorism or even the Taliban, we are knocking down religious fundamentalists and extremists while praising ourselves with God blessings? (ie...God Bless America, our soldiers, etc). This isn't a war on Islam, but people mentioning god in wars can be simply pointed to the basic problem in Israel, Palestine and the Middle East.

[TheMojoPin]

But "God" is actually a little more grammatically correct than just "god", because just "god" implies "a god." "God" is basically his/her/its official title...just like if you were discussing Greek mythology, would you go out of your way to spell "Zeus" as "zeus"?

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[FiveB247]

I didn't realize spelling and gramatical rules were being taken into account when posting? Is that a -2 in red ink on my test?haha

But honestly, it's the same idea...I think it's a bit much to try and get PC about god and GOD. (and on a messageboard no less)

[scottinnj]

"Superpowers" beats "Bushwhackers", I guess.

" and they ask me why I drink"

I never need to ask you why you drink, my freind. I had some White Horse Scotch tonight with a MonteChristo Churchill, and the angels from Heaven came down to serenade me.
I just wish you all were here to enjoy it with me. And that goes for Gvac and Hbox too. I know Yerdaddy is here with me in spirit, as is epo and Mojo.
Here's to all my ronfez.net freinds!!!!!!

[TheMojoPin]

Odd place for it, but CHEERS!

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Re-reading this thread, the comparisons of Saddam to Hitler are still asinine. Hitler is a complete historical rarity. Figures like him and Napoleon and Alexander the Great are historical exceptions, not models...not even close.

[mikeyboy]

Ah. Misty water colored memories of the way we were.

[keithy_19]

Re-reading this thread, the comparisons of Saddam to Hitler are still asinine. Hitler is a complete historical rarity. Figures like him and Napoleon and Alexander the Great are historical exceptions, not models...not even close.

He killed a bunch of innocent people. I guess that makes him like Hitler in a way.

[Stankfoot]

Ah. Misty water colored memories of the way we were.

And the world is like an apple
Whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind

[Death Metal Moe]

I want to go back in time and bash "Conservative Radio Fan Moe" in his fat face with a cinder block until he can't have an open casket.

But Bush taught me a valuable lesson. I will be extremely observant in the future when I see war building again and will try my hardest to not be played like this again.

[TheMojoPin]

He killed a bunch of innocent people. I guess that makes him like Hitler in a way.

That's not "what makes Hitler Hitler" when you're talking about how he was truly dangerous to the rest of the world.

[Recyclerz]

I want to go back in time and bash "Conservative Radio Fan Moe" in his fat face with a cinder block until he can't have an open casket.

But Bush taught me a valuable lesson. I will be extremely observant in the future when I see war building again and will try my hardest to not be played like this again.


:thumbup: This might be the best post ever in this forum.

It demonstrates perfectly the reason why you can't count out humans as a species - the best of them have the ability to learn from their mistakes.

[patsopinion]

He killed a bunch of innocent people. I guess that makes him like Hitler in a way.

ahem (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/)

[keithy_19]

That's not "what makes Hitler Hitler" when you're talking about how he was truly dangerous to the rest of the world.

I know he wasn't dangerous to the rest of the world. But he was dangerous to the people of Iraq.

I feel it's the same as turning the other way in dealing with the human rights violations happening in Darfur.

Not that I want America to solve the worlds problems.

[keithy_19]

ahem (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/)

Not all of thse deaths are attributed to the American military.

[TooLowBrow]

I know he wasn't dangerous to the rest of the world. But he was dangerous to the people of Iraq.

I feel it's the same as turning the other way in dealing with the human rights violations happening in Darfur.


We turn the other way in dealing with the human rights violations happening in China...

[HBox]

We turn the other way in dealing with the human rights violations happening in China...

And Africa.

[El Mudo]

And Africa.


And Burma

[keithy_19]

We turn the other way in dealing with the human rights violations happening in China...

And I find that to be awful.

I'm pretty sure that's why the United Nations was formed. To keep an eye on all the violations of human rights and to stop them from occuring.

We all know how wonderful the UN is, though.

[Yerdaddy]

And Burma

Actually I can't think of anything more that we could do on Burma that we're already doing, other than puting more pressure on China, Thailand and India to respect the international (UN- and US-led) sanctions. But, unfortunately sanctions always step on the toes Big Business and they're a tough lobby to fight and getting tougher.

And I find that to be awful.

I'm pretty sure that's why the United Nations was formed. To keep an eye on all the violations of human rights and to stop them from occuring.

We all know how wonderful the UN is, though.

We do? Do you understand that "the UN" is a deliberative body which is incapable of making decisions on its own, but only provides a forum within which only the UN Security Council (of which we are the most powerful of the permanent 5 members) can make binding decisions? It is not a Justice League of lazy superheroes.

That said, I've encountered serious inadequacies with the specific county-based UN agencies in Yemen and here, but the UN Special Reporter on Human Rights for Cambodia provides one of the few good sources of no-bullshit, name-the-names reports on human rights in Cambodia. This is specifically because he's not based in the country and thus can't be pushed around by the government here. But after the reporting is done it's up to the donor countries, (the US is one of the biggest - as are China, Japan and S Korea), to decide what action is to be taken. The UN was never designed or intended to be a decidurr. That's still solely the perogative of governments.

So I don't know what you think the UN could be doing but isn't.

[keithy_19]

That said, I've encountered serious inadequacies with the specific county-based UN agencies in Yemen and here, but the UN Special Reporter on Human Rights for Cambodia provides one of the few good sources of no-bullshit, name-the-names reports on human rights in Cambodia. This is specifically because he's not based in the country and thus can't be pushed around by the government here. But after the reporting is done it's up to the donor countries, (the US is one of the biggest - as are China, Japan and S Korea), to decide what action is to be taken. The UN was never designed or intended to be a decidurr. That's still solely the perogative of governments.

So I don't know what you think the UN could be doing but isn't.

You don't think it's a little messed up that one of the biggest offenders of human rights violations is also one of the countries expected to stop them?

[Yerdaddy]

You don't think it's a little messed up that one of the biggest offenders of human rights violations is also one of the countries expected to stop them?

So you kick the bad countries out. Then what? They just go find another planet to be dicks on? No. They'll have even less incentive to improve their human rights conditions.

The nature of the organization - a deliberative body in which everybody has a stake - was our idea in the first place. And since you can't just kick bad countries off the planet and you can't invade them all, (we all understand that now right?), the UN was a brilliant idea that's prevented a great deal of conflict in the 20th century, and probably kept the Cold War from becoming a hot war.

Today, because all countries have a seat at that table, and they sign treaties to keep thier membership, they can, and are, forced to take some measures to comply with international human rghts norms in order to remain in good standing wtih the rest of the world, (and to keep international aid flowing). It's rarely the full compliance that's asked of it, but it's better than nothing and once one level of compliance is achieved only the next level of compliance becomes acceptable. Pressure to improve begins to come from both inside and outside the country. Sometimes countries backtrack, but with pressure from publics in and out of the country there's potential for progress and it's happened many times the world over - it just doesn't make for compelling news for the typical viewer. The UN exists to facilitate this process and it does so - with serious problems that I'm perfectly willing to gripe about. The way it can be improved is by understanding it and modifying it towards what it does well and away from what it does poorly.

Read this. It's long, but if you read it you will understand some fundamental things about the international system as it was, is and could be, and how China fits into that system. (http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20080101faessay87102/g-john-ikenberry/the-rise-of-china-and-the-future-of-the-west.html)