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HBox
03-19-2003, 03:27 PM
It seems like Saddam has been trying everything he can do to make the U.S. look bad in this whole ordeal. First, way back in September we argued we should invade Iraq because they had expelled weapon inspectors. So, Iraq let them in. Then, he gave little by little by little so the inspectors could make progress. This has resulted in the whole world believing that Iraq is cooperating and inspections are working.

So if he uses chemical weapons against U.S. troops wouldn't that validate everything the U.S. has said? Even France said they would help in that case. So, imagine if Saddam is, right now, destroying and discarding all of his chemical weapons and other banned weapons? What happens if we invade Iraq and find nothing? That would seemingly be Saddam's last laugh.

Any thoughts?

Bergalad
03-19-2003, 03:51 PM
He won't have time to destroy it all, plus there will be residue, manufacturing plants, and most importantly the scientists who will validate our claims. I don't see what Saddam has to lose by using his chem weapons now. Either way he's gonna lose them, either by the coalition taking them or him employing them. Seriously, he would be tactically stupid if he didn't use them. But no, I don't think he could possibly destroy it all, but once he sees Green Berets in the streets he will wish he had destroyed it all 12 years ago.

Def Dave in SC
03-19-2003, 05:29 PM
i have a strange feeling that he has pulled an osama, and dissapeared in the last 28 hours. i would also bet dollars to donuts that he has sold as many of his weapons as possible to abybody that would buy them. scary shit

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This message was edited by Def Dave in DC on 4-21-03 @ 6:33 PM

furie
04-21-2003, 06:59 AM
Wow. I don't know how i missedthis thread the first time around. This is exactly what i've been saying all along. He's most likely destroyed most of his WMD, and those he couldn'r destroy he sent over the boarder to Syria and Iran.

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A.J.
04-21-2003, 07:06 AM
He's most likely destroyed most of his WMD,

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/21/international/worldspecial/21CHEM.html?ex=1051502400&en=558d236c00fc7bc9&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1

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FiveB247
04-21-2003, 07:15 AM
It's not a matter of simply if he used them. Many of the WMD and chemical/ biological weapons the US has stated have been widely remarked upon previously. We knew he had some of these items. Through the last war, inspections and submission of documentation. Much of it has to do with building more WMD and stockpiling them instead of destroying them and disarming Iraq like they were supposed to do.

Btw..with regards to the Link and story that AJinDC posted. This could be a good help to the US. But it's not 100% yet for 2 reasons.
1) Are you going to simply take the word of one Iraqi scientist? Who previously was known as 'enemy' and probably now is under serious questioning? It very well may lead to something...but it's not confirmed yet.
2) WMD can not be destroyed overnight. It's not something you can simply shutdown, burn or remove so easily and then bury the leftovers. There will be clues, remnents or some trace of actions if they were attempted or had taken place.

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 4-21-03 @ 11:34 AM

East Side Dave
04-21-2003, 08:00 AM
I also would bet dollars to doughnuts...


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Yerdaddy
04-21-2003, 09:32 AM
The question of Iraq's WMD programs is not going to be resolved by the war because the honest debate over it was never about whether he had WMD or he had no WMD. It was always about how much WMD he had, what quality and kind he had, and what he would do with it. So most people in the foriegn policy establishment assumes that WMD will be found, but 6 months and a year from now the questions will be about how much was found, what quality they were, why didn't Saddam use the WMD he had at the time of the war, what would he have done with it had we not gone to war with him, and did members of his military or his scientists take some of the WMD or precurser chemicals out of the country before or during the war?

Unfortunately, in the public, which has become so divided and politicized over the justifications of the war, the debate will remain an all or nothing argument in which every bit of evidence will be held as proof of justification while disputed by others. But justification for a war that has already taken place becomes less relevant than the question of what is being done for the people who we "liberated."

So I think the importance of the WMD issue is already fading and the question of reconstruction of Iraq is becoming the main issue now, as it should be.

AJ's article brings up some issues though. For instance, if any of Iraq's WMD was sent over the border to Syria, then that problem can't be treated the same way as Iraq was. Syria is not prohibited from possessing WMD. Iraq was only prohibited from having them as a condition of the 1991 cease fire. No such treaty exists with Syria, and it has not joined the bio/chem weapons treaties. There may some prohibition on recieving them from Iraq, but that will still be a murky issue.

Also, Syria is a part of other important issues. Syria has given us important cooperation with our war against al-Quaeda, and it would be foolish to sacrafice that cooperation. It has not, however, stopped its support for Hammas in Palestine, which we will need to pressuring it to do when/if we turn our attention to the Israel/Palestine issue soon. The foreign policy establishment is pretty much in agreement that, in order to maintain our standing in the Middle East, and to achieve our objective of using a "democratic" Iraq as a tool for bringing reform to the other regimes in the region, the US has to bring the Israelis and Palestinians to the bargaining table. Syria will be a key player in that process. The Bush administration will be pressuring it to stop support for Hammas as part of that process, and to end its own occupation of Lebanon. So the issue of WMD in Syria will not be an isolated one.

As for bio/chem weapons in general, an article in yesterday's WP ,(<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58454-2003Apr19.html" target="_blank">Lethal Legacy: Bioweapons for Sale - U.S. Declined South African Scientist's Offer on Man-Made Pathogens</a>) shows the complexity of the problems of WMD in general. A South African scientist had precurser agents of biological weapons leftover from South Africa's biological weapons program that was supposed to have been completely destroyed by the mid 1990s. He offered to sell them to the US in 1992, but the US declined them after they ferified that they were biological weapons, but were outdated versions that could be reproduced in any advanced laboratory. The guy says he's getting offers from shadowy figured to buy the shit. If the US government chose not to buy this shit just to get it off the market, then that makes me think that there must be alot worse stuff coming out of laboratories nowadays. And assuming that we're not going to go to war with South Africa, there has to be a better way of dealing with this shit.

Also note the sick fucking nature of the pathogens the aparthied regime was trying to develop to sterilize black people in South Africa.

A.J.
04-21-2003, 09:37 AM
Welcome back Yerdaddy. :)

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FiveB247
04-21-2003, 10:18 AM
Yerdaddy, For the most part I agree with your post, but there are some items I do not.

1) The US is, but never wants to accept the fact that they are the World Police. They may talk of spreading democracy, development, freedom, etc...But those are all just side notes to the US's 'national interests', 'threats' and agendas. If the US were as forthcoming and dutiful as you make them seem, we'd be freeing the world from all it's dictators, etc. That's a BS rhetoric tool used by government. Obviously, people are freed and will lead better lives, that's a great and positive thing. But the US won't go around removing every such awful and unjust leader around the world. So to simply say, the US and 'Operation Iraqi Freedom'...that's its justification...is a far cry from reality.

2) You are completely leaving out the responsibility and reprecussions of what our leaders say and do. What is stated and what is over-stated. You are leaving out accountability through what our leaders say and what comes to be. The US got involved in the Iraq situation and invasion due to WMD and disarmament...not the freedom of the Iraqi people. Remember that. Cause once you realize that, everything else is secondary.

It's a simple case of switching ideas, notions and causes after the fact. And it doesn't hold. If we can not hold our leaders to the words they tell us, we are only fooling ourselves into believing their lies in the first place.

Yerdaddy
04-21-2003, 11:43 AM
I hope this thread now clears up the rumors that FiveB is my alter ego on the board.

I agree that the rhetoric of the administration leading up to the war was bullshit. But the myriad of reasons given to justify the war are not going to be resolved. The debate about WMD and terrorist ties will go on in the near future, in the next presidential election and into the history books in the future. But now that the war has happened, what is more important is the future of the region, with Iraq's future being central to the policies of every country involved, especiall ours. So while I don't blindly accept that the administration intends to build a democratic Iraq, or is even capable of it, I think the focus of the Iraq issue needs to be on the issue of the political future of Iraq and the region. To me the war shows that international law is going to be even less of a constraint on an American administration willing to take a small majority of domestic opinion into whatever international adventure it wants. That means that the only thing the administration is accountable to is domestic public opinion. So if Iraq is going to be left with some semblence of democracy, it is going to require the attention of the American public. Without that, we'll set up Ahmed Chalabi as a Shaw of Iran figure and prop him up until the region falls apart again like it did in 79.

I think what you're talking about is accountability for the administration that seems to have lied its way into a war. I'm all for the continuation of that discussion, and I've got my share of sources that show the intelligence community and others exposing the lies of the administration. But as a matter of priorities, I think it's more important to hold the administration to as much of the promise it made to the Iraqi people at this point, both because they've done most of the suffering under Saddam, three wars, and 12 years of sanctions, and because it is going to be the lynchpin of fighting terrorism, reforming the regimes of the region, and resolving the Middle East crisis.

As for accountability, when was the last time an American president was held accountable for lying about international relations? It should, and will be pursued, but it will never be as fruitful as it should be.

So don't take my first post back as a comprehensive view of my thoughts on the subject, (if there is such a thing), just more of where I think some problems are and priorities should be.

AJ - thanks budday! It's good to be back, so far :)

FREE ASS!

FiveB247
04-21-2003, 11:53 AM
I hope this thread now clears up the rumors that FiveB is my alter ego on the board.


That's funny. It's actually the first time I've heard that. haha

Albeit, many of your points valid. You can't just allow for politicians to say one thing and do another...and hope it works out. It will in some way, shape or form have serious reprocussions. Whether to the taxpayers who will be paying for the billions in Iraqi reconstruction, the success or failure democracy holds, or the re-action to our presence in the Middle East.

We've basically made ourselves more of a target in a region in which we want more stability and aren't welcomed there. So we decided let's set up camp to reconstruct alone. It's awful policy and it will come back to haunt us.

furie
04-21-2003, 11:57 AM
I hope this thread now clears up the rumors that FiveB is my alter ego on the board.


No, See I thought you were frank black and FiveB was eggers

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This message was edited by furie on 4-21-03 @ 4:59 PM

Yerdaddy
04-21-2003, 12:02 PM
I thought you were frank black
I wish! He's ten times as popular as I ever was.

FREE ASS!

ADF
04-21-2003, 01:50 PM
He won't have time to destroy it all, plus there will be residue, manufacturing plants, and most importantly the scientists who will validate our claims.


He might have time to destroy it all, especially if the idea that he only kept a small supply and just had the means to "whip up" a bunch of chemical/biological weapons on short notice is true.

The problem with "residue and remnants" of biological weapons is that the public wants "hard" evidence. Sure, we all know that he was up to some fishy stuff, to say the least, but trace chemicals and empty labs capable of producing WMD's and/or baby formula isn't going to convince the average world citizen that we were justified in attacking Iraq.

He's most likely destroyed most of his WMD, and those he couldn'r destroy he sent over the boarder to Syria and Iran.


Make a run for the border!

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TheMojoPin
04-21-2003, 05:16 PM
Yerdaddy is the HordeKing of the politcal forum, and I find that insanely hilarious.

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high fly
04-22-2003, 04:13 PM
Maybe Saddam was saving his WMD untll he really needed them.

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