can someone please enlighten me [Archive]

TooCute

03-20-2003, 08:01 PM

I don't understand what 'left' and 'right' are. I don't understand what 'conservative' and 'liberal' are. I don't understand what 'republican' and 'democrat' are.

Reading the threads in this forum, it seems like almost everything ends up coming down to an argument where 'conservative' 'right' thinking 'republicans' call 'liberal' 'left' thinking 'democrats' anti-american.

I honestly don't think I understand what these terms mean, and what they men in the context of interactions between people. If someone is 'right', should someone who is 'left' automatically assume that they know what most of the 'right' person's beliefs are, and vice versa?

Are peoples' views on things so limited that people can be lumped into one of two categories? What ARE those categories, and where do they come from? My history is fuzzy, since I haven't had any since eleventh grade, and I certainly never took any political science classes in college.

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The Blowhard

03-20-2003, 08:16 PM

Aya, they are silly labels. Conseratives claim to prefer "old fashioned values", Liberals consider themselves to be "progressive" on issues.
I honestly believe that there are good conservative AND liberal ideals, we just need to reach a consensus.
Republicans tend to be "conservative", Democrats "liberal". There are exceptions of course.
Me?:
I support gun ownership by responsible citizens.
I support legalizing gambling, prostitution and marijuana.
I'm pro choice.
I'm against any type of affirmitive action.
I support gay marriage(let them be miserable too!).
I support immigration reform.
I don't want prayer in school.
I am pro-union.
I am against NAFTA.
See? I'm not liberal nor conservative.
Labels. That's all. Show me a person who claims to be 100% liberal or conservative and I'll show you a liar.

Dewey

03-20-2003, 08:30 PM

Too Cute, you are making this too difficult. The essential question you need to ask yourself on any issue is "Do I agree with Dewey?" If you do, you're fine. If you don't, get your mind right.

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HBox

03-20-2003, 08:33 PM

The left is right and the right is wrong!

Nyuck nyuck nyuck!

(It was just joke!)

c-dub

03-20-2003, 08:34 PM

It's very simple...

The World Is Wrong

Bush Is Right

The World Is Flat

Day Is Night.

c-dub

Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 08:34 PM

Wow Heckler, no wonder you and I get along so well. I agree with everything you said.

I am MOSTLY Conservative. I have some progressive ideas.

But anything leftwing is wrong.

Let's put it this way:If you find yourself thinking Hillary Clinton has some good ideas, you're a lefty. If you think Ted Kennedy doesn't get a fair shake, you are a lefty. If you agreed with Tom Dashle the other day BLASTING the president even in time of impending war, you are an asshole, and a lefty.

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HBox

03-20-2003, 08:37 PM

But anything leftwing is wrong.

Stay on topic...stay on topic.......stay on topic.......

TooCute

03-20-2003, 08:38 PM

Thank you Heckler.

To everyone else: this exemplifies exactly what I am so utterly baffled by - that people look at other poeople and just categorize them as either "agrees as me" or "disagrees with me" and immediately proceeds to discount anything that people in the "disagrees with me" category says simply because they're in that category.

When I discuss such issues with people who are strongly on one side or the other (more often the right, conservative side, since apparently I disagreed with many conservative 'values') I find it horrendously frustrating that people will essentially say "Well you're just a flaming liberal, so of course you are buying into liberal propaganda and of course you disagree with me". How the fuck can I be a liberal? I don't even know what a liberal is! I take issues as they come. Does that make me independent? What if I research every issue and come up with my own conclusions, and they happen to be the same as those of 'liberals' - does that make me a liberal, too?

I think people get so blind when they get caught up in such things... it's very easy to tell someone else that they've been blinded by propaganda - I think it's very much harder to realize that perhaps you yourself have been blinded just the same.

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The Blowhard

03-20-2003, 08:39 PM

Many "liberal"programs have been succesful, from Social Security, HeadStart, and the union movement. Then again many liberal policies make my skin crawl, like affirmitave action, hate crime legislation and the hideous welfare state. Well intentioned? Yes. Successful? No.
The Conservatives that associate with the likes of Falwell, Robertson and Helms sicken me.

Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 08:53 PM

Oh yea, the religious right makes me puke on most occasions. I like to distance myself, but I do acknowledge that they are part of my party, so I might have to show someone how I am NOT with them but still conservative.

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TooCute

03-20-2003, 08:57 PM

I like to distance myself, but I do acknowledge that they are part of my party,

But why MUST you be a part of a party? Why can't you just be you?

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The Blowhard

03-20-2003, 08:59 PM

But why MUST you be a part of a party? Why can't you just be you?

Brava!
It seems that many who post here have been "indoctrinated": some from leftist educators, many from right wing talk show hosts. There isn't much "black and white" when it comes to politics, there's alot of "gray".
I was once a Young Republican but the right wing scared me. So did the Left wing of the Democratic party. I believe that each issue should be examined and researched, from a variety of news and info sources. Take everything you read and hear with a grain of salt and decide for yourselves. Just my opinion folks.

JerryTaker

03-20-2003, 09:24 PM

I totally agree with toocute and heckler. I registered as an independant, and though it sucks not to be able to vote in either primaries; both parties make me sick and I can't align myself with either.

I hold myself to these principles:

Too far left and you lose your induviduality and work ethic

Too far right and you lose your freedoms

Always question your leaders, they're all people too, and they make mistakes like anyone else. Never follow blindly

Listen to every opinion, decide for yourself what sounds learned and intellegent, and what sounds like babble

I've been dismayed at many people's tendencies lately to lean a little too far right, and swear to everything their leader says, and it's disheartening.

BTW, this, like all the posts before it (and after), has been OPINION

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PanterA

03-20-2003, 09:27 PM

righty tighty

lefty loosey

You can tell which is left if you hold out your hand and make "L's" with your fingers...the one that makes the L the right way is your left.

I hope that helps.

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This message was edited by PanterA on 3-21-03 @ 1:29 AM

Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 09:32 PM

But why MUST you be a part of a party? Why can't you just be you?

I say I'm a conservaive because I agree with like 90% of what they stand for. It's easier to identify myself like that, but I obviously am a free thinker. I am FOR Abortion, gay rights, pot legalization and the environment.

And actually, the environment IS NOT just a leftist cause! NO ONE wants to live in a polluted world and just because big business is linked more with the right doesn't mean we're anit-environment. It just means were's not SHACKLED by it.

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TooCute

03-20-2003, 09:36 PM

And actually, the environment IS NOT just a leftist cause! NO ONE wants to live in a polluted world and just because big business is linked more with the right doesn't mean we're anit-environment. It just means were's not SHACKLED by it.

Like drilling in Alaska? That was defeated yesterday, by the way (yay!).

Based on your comments in other threads, I don't think you actually understand the environment, and hence I don't think you're really in a position to say whether 'your' party is 'for' or 'against' it.

But anyway, to get back on topic, what I see as the problem with identifying yourself with a group is that you automatically then assume that anyone not in your little group is wrong.

And what about brainwashing? For anyone that actually strongly identifies themself with a particular party: Do you believe that members of other parties are able to consider issues as well as you? Or do you find them to be weak-minded followers?

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TheMojoPin

03-20-2003, 09:42 PM

Bravo, Heck.

As much as a lot of people try to do, I simply can't ally myself with any one "side". I guess I agree with more "liberal" ideals, but I end up disagreeing with the Democratic party practically as much as the Republicans, so it really doesn't speak to me when people try and say I'm a Democrat, or that the Demorcrats somehow speak for me or represent my politics.

This outdated notion of just two parties is stiffling the supposed politcal freedom in this country. How can groups made up of hundreds be expected to basically express their individual politcs, beliefs and ideas as a WHOLE collective, as the two major parties seem to want to do on EVERY issue that comes before the American public? It's madness...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-21-03 @ 1:48 AM

HBox

03-20-2003, 09:43 PM

Do you believe that members of other parties are able to consider issues as well as you? Or do you find them to be weak-minded followers?

I try to but its difficult to do when you beleive in something strongly. You really have to force yourself to allow for other viewpoints. That's something I struggle with.

But every side has its idiots.

Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 09:45 PM

Based on your comments in other threads, I don't think you actually understand the environment

Well I'm sorry you misread me.

And what about brainwashing? For anyone that actually strongly identifies themself with a particular party: Do you believe that members of other parties are able to consider issues as well as you? Or do you find them to be weak-minded followers?

This is a good question.

I may not say it enough so I will say it here: NOT ALL people are easily catagorized. I understand that. There are some more moderate Liberals and more progressice Conservatives.

But when you associate yourself with a gourp, you think THEY are right. So I like to hear their side 1st because I've associated myself with them because I've found that 9 times out of 10 I agree with them. I think that all Americans can try to think out problems and solutions, but are motivated by different ideals and idiologies. And I find the Left Wing agenda to be damaging to the American way of life.

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TheMojoPin

03-20-2003, 09:59 PM

And I find the Left Wing agenda to be damaging to the American way of life.

But there is NO "right wing or left wing agenda"...there are only Democratic and Republican agendas! THEY'RE the ones trying to force a nation of INDIVIDUALS to think en masse like two red and blue-colored herds! It's insane to try and just pass someone off who disagrees with you as being "one of those guys" or "part of that group", because odds are they'll just disagree with the fellow "right winger" or "liberal" they were tossed next to. I mean, you talk like the "Right Wing Agenda" wouldn't be thinking like sheep and trying to dictate what they think is best for all Americans, just like the "Left Wing Agenda." How can one group trying to think for EVERYONE be better than another group doing the same? It's just as bad as religious extremists thinking that THEIR way of life is right, so EVERYONE needs to think that way. It's nuts...NUTS. Kick these fucking "parties" in the balls, before it's too late...

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Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 10:05 PM

I'm sorry Mojo. You always talk about 3rd party shit, and I WISH there was another party to pick from. But it has been proven for a long time now that the 3rd party is a wasted vote in most elections. They can help bring new ideas into the election but never stand a chance.

And everyone I disagree with IS NOT "the other guy." The COULD be "the other girl" and that was VERY un-PC of you, you leftist commie!

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JerryTaker

03-20-2003, 10:05 PM

Well, since nobody reads my posts, I must come off as a simpleton, so here's more drivel...

FOR Abortion, gay rights, pot legalization and the environment.

I think many Liberals out there define themselves as a follower of either party by thier stance on these very issues.

Edit: that was stupid, I meant define themselves as Liberals ... /EDIT

Conservatives have an agenda to squash all of those things you're for, Moe.. I think that's a little more than 10% of your party's issues...

I quote Peter Steele:
"The Left say I'm a Fascist,
The Right call me a Communist"

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This message was edited by JerryTaker on 3-21-03 @ 2:14 AM

TheMojoPin

03-20-2003, 10:07 PM

Goddammit Moe, stop giving up! Did the US give up after Pearl Harbor? Did George Washington give up after Valley Forge?!? GIVING UP IS NOT THE AMERICAN WAY, YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD.

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Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 10:09 PM

I didn't give up, but everybody else did.

I think 3rd parties gave up when Nader got the nomination. What a LOON! Unsafe at any level of government!

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TooCute

03-21-2003, 07:26 AM

You always talk about 3rd party shit, and I WISH there was another party to pick from

Argh. That's my point. Why do you HAVE to pick ANY party?!

first you said you picked republicans because 90% of the time you agree with them. Now you're saying you wish there were other parties you could choose from? You mean like one you agree with 95% of the time? I don't get it!

I swear, I DON'T GET IT!

And Moe I'm not picking on you, only asking you because you're the only one who is replying who is stating that they're a member of their party and trying to explain why (although I still don't get it.)

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Recyclerz

03-21-2003, 07:57 PM

OK, the Nyquil has made me loopy enough to think a ponderous civics lesson post is a good idea.

The two party system started in the US in the early 1800's as another check and balance to keep any one group from getting too much power.

The current liberal/conservative dichotomy really started (or got entrenched) as a reaction to FDR's New Deal and the start of the Cold War. IMHO, that's why the labels have lost any real meaning; the world has really changed since then.

There are several reasons to join a political party: (a)You're a narcissist who likes telling others what to do and you want to get elected to something; (b) your pal is one of those (a)s and you want to get a patronage job; (c) you feel comfortable being told what to think; (d) you care passionately about one issue and want to get your views enacted into law. [Eg. If you think abortion is murder, keep getting Republicans elected President. If John Paul Stevens takes his dirt nap while W is still President, Roe v. Wade gets overturned and the legality of abortion gets turned back to the States.]

Politicians care about two things: money and votes. More money gets them more votes and more votes gets them more money. Unless you are going to give them one or the other they are not going to listen to what you have to say, regardless of how well reasoned your arguement or how pure your motives are. Parties are a wonderful way of getting money to politicians who will do what you ask of them. Tax cuts for the rich anyone?

Using liberal/conservative as a pejorative label has become a way for rooting for your team, not unlike the Yankees rule/Mets suck (or vice versa). Rush Limbaugh is a genius for making pseudo-political commentary a form of entertainment and building a virtual community that he (and his progeny) can get to march wherever they want.

OK, now I'm boring even myself. Punching out.

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This message was edited by Recyclerz on 3-22-03 @ 12:32 AM

high fly

03-23-2003, 11:16 AM

TOOCUTE---- the way I see it, the conservatives basically think that troubles today would be best dealt with by going back to old tried and true methods.
Liberals approach these issues with the thought that the old tried and true methods of the past haven't worked so well for everybody and what is needed is new approaches.
Liberals look for something new, conservatives look for something old.
A different way to see the differences between the two is in how a conservative and a liberal, each with a 100 foot rope would help a person drowning 100 feet offshore.
The conservative would throw the person 50 feet of rope and holler for the person to swim to it.
The liberal would throw the person 100 feet of rope, then drop their end and walk off patting himself on the back for doing such a good deed.

" and they ask me why I drink"

TheMojoPin

03-23-2003, 11:51 AM

A different way to see the differences between the two is in how a conservative and a liberal, each with a 100 foot rope would help a person drowning 100 feet offshore.
The conservative would throw the person 50 feet of rope and holler for the person to swim to it.
The liberal would throw the person 100 feet of rope, then drop their end and walk off patting himself on the back for doing such a good deed.

I laughed my sac off at this one.

Nice.

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Death Metal Moe

03-23-2003, 12:26 PM

Pick away Too Cute. It's not picking at this point, it's a discussion. And as long as they stay civil, like this one is, I'm all for it. Aaah, I'm even for a little name calling. It's silly!

And yea Jerrytaker, I know I differ with a few core beliefs of the conservative party. I have seen over the years that I agree with most of their descisons and beliefs so that is why I feel like I belong with the conservatives. But as some Liberals adopt conservative views, I adopt some more traditionally Liberal views. I try to form my own opinions on topics, as I see many of you say you do.

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high fly

03-26-2003, 10:47 AM

Another difference that can often be seen is in the type of scandals that either side seems to get away with or not get away with.
Your conservatives typically get away with scandals involving shady money, but go down in flames should there be a sex scandal, while it is just the reverse for liberals. Sure, there are exceptions, but this is a general pattern.

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Bestinshow

03-26-2003, 11:20 AM

Did George Washington give up after Valley Forge?!?
There was no battle at Valley Forge. It was just a very rough winter encampment. You damn Liberals can never get your facts straight.

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Bestinshow

03-26-2003, 02:15 PM

Are the Republican guard left wing or right wing?

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LatterYearsJimMorrison

03-26-2003, 02:20 PM

i also agree with heckler, we should unite and form our own power union.

The Jays

03-26-2003, 08:45 PM

Why do you HAVE to pick ANY party?!

Primaries, for one. I know that most people from my party share in many of the ideas I have, thus I would like to select the best canidate that qualifies for what ever office they are running for.
And then when election day comes around, I pick which of the final canidates will do the job the best.

I don't understand what 'left' and 'right' are.

The most extreme right is facism. The most extreme left is socialism.

the way I see it, the conservatives basically think that troubles today would be best dealt with by going back to old tried and true methods.

This is more of a reactionary attitude toward problem solving rather than a conservative approach.

AT the heart of the conservative philosophy is the Jeffersonian ideal that the government which governs least governs best, along with the belief in an open, free, competitive marketplace. The government is there to insure the rights of man, along with the rights of the citizens so that the individual can live free and independently.

A government makes sure that the opportunity exists for a person to open up a food stand, but it is not the governments responsiblity to give a person food and make him eat it.

The liberal side is that the government is there to help you, whether you want the help or not. The government needs to provide for its citizens, needs to create more programs, and needs to have a large government in order to solve all the problems.

It is arguable that problems, such as health care, can be solved with a competitive open market for healthcare rather than a federally provided heathcare system. There are a great many things that the government doesn't need to be involved with.

Your conservatives typically get away with scandals involving shady money, but go down in flames should there be a sex scandal, while it is just the reverse for liberals.

This is more of a generalization of problems that occur to certain individuals who happen to have a particular political affiliation, than a reflection of what the conservative and liberal ideologies are.

I don't even know what a liberal is! I take issues as they come. Does that make me independent?

When you show continous support for ideas that are based in the liberal ideogody, people come to the conclusion that you are a liberal, whether you know what a liberal is or not.

If one argues for things such as federal welfare programs, federal healthcare, federal aid for airline industries, affirmative action, one might come to the conclusion that the person is a liberal, someone who believes in the liberal ideology. One who argues against might be a conservative.

I honestly believe that there are good conservative AND liberal ideals, we just need to reach a consensus.

Which falls into the area of politics. Two sides of a issue are argued, and a solution is reached that can be agreed upon by a majority.

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TheMojoPin

03-26-2003, 10:15 PM

There was no battle at Valley Forge. It was just a very rough winter encampment. You damn Liberals can never get your facts straight.

I never said it was a battle. Valley Forge is famous because as the story goes, the cold and harsh conditions almost broke the rebel army, but supposedly Washington's courage and determination were such an inspiration, the army managed to pull through. Why are you putting words in my mouth? Or is this some kind of really bad joke that I'm really not caring if I get?

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TooCute

03-27-2003, 03:51 AM

When you show continous support for ideas that are based in the liberal ideogody, people come to the conclusion that you are a liberal, whether you know what a liberal is or not.

If one argues for things such as federal welfare programs, federal healthcare, federal aid for airline industries, affirmative action, one might come to the conclusion that the person is a liberal, someone who believes in the liberal ideology. One who argues against might be a conservative.

But this is exactly what my question is. Great, so sometimes I might agree with other people. Suddenly that makes me a tree hugger hippie communist whatever else you want to call them, the enemy of all that is conservative. People label. Conversely people who strongly identify themselves with one party or the other often decide that their party must always be right - hell you agree with some ideals it promotes, you must agree with all of them, right? - and stop thinking.

You want to give credit to people for being able to think for themselves and make their own decisions? Read this forum, count how many threads have the phrase "those damn liberals" or "those damn conservatives" in them in reference to a statement of opinion indicating no party afiliation whatsoever.

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wilee

03-27-2003, 06:45 AM

I think that many people tend to see things as either black or white or right or wrong. They don't look at things as having a "gray area", so to speak.

I consider myself to be an independent, and I have leanings towards whichever side of the issue I believe is right- meaning right for the majority of people of the country. I find the behavior of some of our politicians to be distasteful, and self-serving, and wish there were a way to put an end to it (there is, but it would require them to vote for something not in THEIR interest, but in the interest of the U.S. citizens).

I don't follow blindly what our leaders say, I look for facts, and data to back up my stance on the issues. I think that welfare is OK as a safety net, not a way of life. I think that controls on immigration and guns are necessary, but not to the extremes that I've heard advocated, and sometimes enacted. I believe that when someone goes into an act knowing the possible consequences, that they should have to live with those consequences if they continue, not look to the government to bail them out of the situation every time.

While I support Bush's decision to declare war on Iraq, it is not because I'd blindly follow him off a cliff. It is because I believe that 12 years is sufficient time for Iraq to disarm and PROVIDE DOCUMENTATION that proves that they have destroyed ALL the conscripted items that WE KNOW they have. Saddam is playing the "poor picked-on leader" of a country for all its worth to the world press, claiming that he isn't doing anything wrong, but I'm sure that had he been left to his own devices (no pun intended) and not watched by countries like the US, we would be in serious jeopardy within the next few years. No one (on this board or otherwise) has given me sufficient cause to question this.

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Captain Stubing

03-27-2003, 07:23 AM

People labelAs flip as this sounds TooCute you've answered your own question, i.e. people label. That is what all of this dicotomizing, categorizing and reductionism is about.
The research on this is simple.....the world is complicated so people need a form of cognitive shorthand. Short-tall, smart-stupid, poor-rich, left-right, etcetc are ways of simplifying the world. As others have mentioned, it is basically universal and has the benefits of being generally accurate. For the purposes of political discussions if your worldview is such that you believe in that which MOST conservatives believe, you are a conservative. Likewise if you believe in that which MOST liberals believe, you are a liberal. Whether you believe EVERYTHING in that ideology is a mute point because big divisions like conservatism and liberalism are fuzzy sets, i.e. core elements with gray bounderies. And, worldviews tend to be pretty stable so they have some predictive utility.

Fezaesthesia - Prognosis poor...

Bestinshow

03-27-2003, 07:49 AM

Why are you putting words in my mouth? Or is this some kind of really bad joke that I'm really not caring if I get?

Its part of a really bad joke that you you are not caring if you get.

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TooCute

03-27-2003, 07:54 AM

As flip as this sounds TooCute you've answered your own question, i.e. people label.

ehhh you've found me out. I didn't actually have a question. I just think this party system is stupid, and people labelling each other is stupid, and wanted other people to come to that conclusion rather than me just saying that :)

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Captain Stubing

03-27-2003, 08:57 AM

ehhh you've found me out. I didn't actually have a question. I just think this party system is stupid, and people labelling each other is stupid, and wanted other people to come to that conclusion rather than me just saying that
New nic for you = TooSocratic

Fezaesthesia - Prognosis poor...

FMJeff

03-27-2003, 09:16 AM

I am against NAFTA.

I am pro NAMBLA.

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TooCute

03-27-2003, 09:21 AM

I am pro NAMBLA

fag.

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high fly

03-27-2003, 09:57 AM

At the heart of the conservative philosophy is the Jeffersonian ideal...
In his day, Jefferson was a flaming liberal.
The conservatives were the tories that backed the Brits.
As far as "the government that governs best, governs least", it is a slogan that is used by conservatives on the campaign trail more than in practice by conservatives in office.

" and they ask me why I drink"

legroommusic

03-27-2003, 10:12 AM

conservatives, or the "right," look more for individual rights. They seem to perfer smaller government to bigger government. Lower taxes and letting individuals use their money to do as they please whether they use it to pump back into the economy.

Liberals, or the "left," seem to look for group rights. They perfer a larger government with programs that assist people, hence higher taxes. They feel that this form of government helps more people.

I don't know where the terms left and right are derived from.

somehow from those principles, people form their politcal beliefs. Most people pick and choose though.

I love you, aggie.

TheMojoPin

03-27-2003, 12:32 PM

Its part of a really bad joke that you you are not caring if you get.

Shazam.

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JerryTaker

03-27-2003, 12:37 PM

conservatives, or the "right," look more for individual rights. They seem to perfer smaller government to bigger government. Lower taxes and letting individuals use their money to do as they please whether they use it to pump back into the economy.

Which is all well and good, except they've been heavily influenced by lobbyists from big corporations, including the catholic church. There's not much people can do for themselves when the government's leniency allowed that big corporation to take over all the small ones, putting thousands out of work, then there's the whole notion of pusing catholic "morality" on the people

Liberals, or the "left," seem to look for group rights. They perfer a larger government with programs that assist people, hence higher taxes. They feel that this form of government helps more people.

Which is all well and good, except they pick and choose who they help, usually depending on what lobbyists are in thier ear as well. They're very concerned about keeping the minority vote, so they tend to give the farm away to any rediculous idea that comes from minority-run organizations, leading to a segregationist attitude and making many taxpayers question where thier money goes

bottom line... Politicians are Evil. Stop listening to any of them, they only have their own interests in mind, so in that way there's no difference.

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TheMojoPin

03-27-2003, 01:39 PM

The biggest spanner in the works of those that want to deem me nothing but a "liberal" is how how opposed I am to the federal government imposing on the rights, rulings and governments of the states themselves. I'm a firm, firm believer in states' rights, and I think it's an issue that's taken far too lightly by both sides...

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The Jays

03-27-2003, 04:41 PM

In his day, Jefferson was a flaming liberal.
The conservatives were the tories that backed the Brits.

... The term liberalism back then centered on the rights and powers of the citizen. It was only known as a type of philosophy, one where all power that a state of people has is generated from the people, not from God, the sun, from a chosen on, etc. AT the heart of this philosophy is the rights of man; life, liberty , and pursuit of happiness. Liberalism refers to liberty. It is a principal idea that was adopted by revolutionary countries, such as the US and France. Back then, the political ideologies of liberalism and conservatism were unknown. We are all liberal in that way, because we all believe in what has been stated in the Declaration of Independence and in the Constitution.

Which is all well and good, except they've been heavily influenced by lobbyists from big corporations, including the catholic church.

We're talking more about those that side with the groups called conservatives and liberals, not so much about the bad things politicians who are called such labels do. This is a discussion on trying to define these terms by ideology, not by the actions, descriptions, or stereotypes people have heard.

Conservatism and Liberalism are simply two different ideologies that see the government from different viewpoints. Conservative and Liberal arent just party affiliations, or labels, or members of some cool club. It's simply two particular ways of looking at a political problem, and trying to solve it.

And to accept the label of liberal or conservative is not to automatically become a robot of that ideology. In order to agree with one side over another, you need to see the arguments of both sides. I agree with the conservative solution for the most part, so I am going to call myself a conservative. But if you were to look at most of the books I own, or at the links I have in my favorite places on my computer, you're gonna see a shitload of "liberal" books and sites, more than the "conservative" sites. It is important to see both sides, because what's the point of debating if you don't even know what is being said?

And , of course, there are other sides to arguments, not just liberal and conservative. There are ideologies that com in between, some that are more extremely right (Libertarian), some that are more extremely left (Communist). And if you don't consider yourself any particular ideology, or that you mix and match ideas, you just ask yourself questions about how a government should work, what it should do, and how it should go about solving problems, and you will either form your own ideology, or you will find yourself having alot in common with other political observers out there.

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This message was edited by TheJays on 3-27-03 @ 8:41 PM

legroommusic

03-27-2003, 09:15 PM

Of course I was oversimplifying it. Those are explanations of the two at its simplest terms. I'm not talking about any politicians at all. These are the basis for most people who follow those ideas.

I really hate politics and political people. I've got my own views, but read and get informed. Don't fuckin' get your info from message boards. Read a fucking book.

I love you, aggie.

JerryTaker

03-28-2003, 06:08 AM

I really hate politics and political people. I've got my own views, but read and get informed. Don't fuckin' get your info from message boards. Read a fucking book.

Now there's a sentiment I think we all can agree with. Bravo

Now who wants punch and pie? :-)

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FUNKMAN

03-28-2003, 06:11 AM

I don't understand what 'left' and 'right' are. I don't understand what 'conservative' and 'liberal' are. I don't understand what 'republican' and 'democrat' are.

I'm with you. After about 3,000 posts i have never used the term Left, Right, Liberal, or Conservative... It's a person's opinion...

Republican and Democrat I use and being I do not use much of my time dealing with Politics i categorize them as:

Republicans: For The Rich
Democrats: For The Poor And Middle Class

you need both to keep some kind of balance...

for the most part I place my faith in regardless of which party is in Office, they are making an effort to do what's best for the people... Some more than others...

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