10 things to consider if you are anti-war

[Knowledged_one]

Since people want to nitpick details rather then the facts here you go: Originally from the mouth/mind of Dennis Miller

Here are 10 things to consider when voicing an opinion on this important issue:
1) President Bush and Saddam Hussein.....Hussein is the bad guy.
2) If you have faith in the United Nations to do the right thing, keep this in mind. They have Libya heading the Committee on Human
Rights and Iraq heading the Global Disarmament Committee. Do your own math here.
(The US was removed from the CHR after we refused to summarily abolish the Second Amendment under Clinton; seems the UN and George Souros figured that all the urban minority homicides were the direct
result of policies by the White, suburban, elite voters. Also voting against the US and serving on the CHR are Cuba, China, and a couple of other stellar nations with model records of protecting human
rights.)
3) If you use Google search and type in "French Military Victories,"
your reply will be "Did you mean French Military Defeats?"
4) If your only anti-war slogan is "No war for oil," sue your school district for allowing you to slip through the cracks and robbing
you of the education you deserve.
5) Saddam and Bin Laden will not seek United Nations approval before they try to kill us.
6) Despite what some seem to believe, Martin Sheen is NOT the President.
He plays one on T.V.
7) Even if you are anti-war, you are still an "Infidel" and Bin Laden
wants you dead, too.
8) If you believe in a "vast right-wing conspiracy," but not in the
danger that Hussein poses, quit hanging out with the Dell
computer dude.
9) We are not trying to liberate them.
10) Whether you are for military action, or against it, our young men
and women overseas are fighting for us to defend our
> right to speak out. We
all need to support them without reservation.
I hope this helps.

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War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is worth more then his personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of men better then himself - John Stuart Mill

This message was edited by Knowledged_one on 3-26-03 @ 11:41 AM

[A.J.]

Someone else beat you to it:

http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm?topic=26447&forum=87&messageid=425397

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[FiveB247]

Here are 10 things to consider when voicing an opinion on this important issue:


Where you trying to pass this off as your own? or are you Dennis Miller? Just curious...

[furie]

One thing to remember if you are pro-war, preemptive wars set dangerous precedent that will come back to haunt us.

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[Knowledged_one]

did i say that i wrote it, i dont think so

but good response from the anti-war side

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War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is worth more then his personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of men better then himself - John Stuart Mill

This message was edited by Knowledged_one on 3-26-03 @ 11:23 AM

[furie]

did i say that i wrote it, i dont think so


if you're posting something, and not stating that it originated from someone else, then it is implied that you're claiming it to be your work.

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This message was edited by furie on 3-26-03 @ 11:33 AM

[TheMojoPin]

Ah, so AGAIN, if a celebrity is AGAINST the war, they're automatically a "clueless, out of touch moron"...but if a celebrity is FOR the war, well, he's just fine and dandy...right, thumbs up on that one, tiger...

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[Knowledged_one]

at what point was a celebrity criticized, Martin Sheen does seem to think he is the president that is the point being made. But good job at discerning the important facts from the obvious jokes, however i see you make no points about the facts on the U.N. or anything else and btw... google wont really give you that answer

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War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is worth more then his personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of men better then himself - John Stuart Mill

[FiveB247]

if you're posting something, and not stating that it originated from someone else, then it is implied that you're claiming it to be your work.


Exactly. Usually someone writes 'i found this interesting so i'm posting it', 'here's my feelings'...etc.. You just posted it.

btw, I already posted regarding this topic in the other thread. I'm anti-war, and still like Dennis Miller, even after his comments. How bout that one?

[furie]

at what point did anyone say or even insinuate that Dennis Miller is he's just fine and dandy in this thread?

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[Knowledged_one]

FiveB, my bad i was not aware you had posted this.

I have also credited the correct source, so now maybe we can start looking at the facts in there rather then focus on who wrote it

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War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is worth more then his personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of men better then himself - John Stuart Mill

[FUNKMAN]

has anybody seen the bridge...


if the Iraqi Army continues to play unfairly in this war, fight in civilian clothes from people's homes, and use the Iraqi citizens as hostages, then we are in for a "very long" fight...

Our soldiers are going to have to go door to door or else we are going to have to start sacrificing the Iraqi citizens in order to get to the Iraqi army...

Either way, the Iraqi citizens are fucked. If it comes down to that you have to ask the question, "were thier citizens better off LIVING under Saddam's regime" or "better off DYING for Freedom?"

I would guess dying, in the short term it sucks but in the long term it will be better for future generations...

I have been hearing the word "Vietnam" being thrown around by the media...

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[FiveB247]

I have been hearing the word "Vietnam" being thrown around by the media...

The media is always quick to point that out. They also over hyped how easy it will be for us to remove Saddam. Obviously, the US is moving closer to Bagdad and the fighting is tougher. Everyone knew this beforehand. The US rolled half way there with ease and the media wants to make it seem as if the whole war will be like that. They over state their point in all regards.

[Knowledged_one]

they use the word Vietnam for shock reasons, helps get viewers which helps ratings which drives up ad rates, which means more money for those in charge of these companies

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War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is worth more then his personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of men better then himself - John Stuart Mill

[A.J.]

has anybody seen the bridge...


"Where's that confounded bridge?"

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[Knowledged_one]

Bridge over the River Kwai starring John Wayne i think---great movie

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War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is worth more then his personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of men better then himself - John Stuart Mill

[TheMojoPin]

at what point did anyone say or even insinuate that Dennis Miller is he's just fine and dandy in this thread?

Because this is the second time this little rant has gotten its own thread, solely based on the fact it's a celebrity giving his opinions on the war...if I posted some nonsense by someone like Susan Sarandon or Michael Moore, how much money would you want to lay down that the thread would basically be nothing but bashings of a "celebrity who has their head up their ass" or "has no idea what they're talking about!"?

The clear implication is that somehow Dennis Miller's points are more vaild or acceptable than the liberal celebrities because he's pro-war with Iraq, while anti-war celebrities are just "clueless." It's hypocritical. Miller is just expressing his opinion, like the anti-war people. He knows no more than they do, yet he's basically given a "free pass." I have no love for celebrity activists, and usually think they do more harm than good to whatever cause they're getting behind...but how is this any different than some anti-war celebrity getting up and speaking THEIR mind based on what they've read/seen/heard, just as Miller has done?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-26-03 @ 2:09 PM

[Bergalad]

I agree with you Mojo. I think the first time it was posted, it was done because the poster (as am I if it's truly from Miller) was surprised Miller thought this way given his political bent. I don't care what celebs say, I just want them to entertain me. I haven't really seen anyone posting what the anti-war celebs are saying, so to be fair we shouldn't be worried about what the pro-war ones say.

[TheMojoPin]

See? Even Berg and I can cross the politcal divide in times of crisis...there's hope for ALL of us, dammit!

And John Wayne wasn't in "Bridge Over The River Kwai". That was Alec Guinness all the way, baby...

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[furie]

but how is this any different than some anti-war celebrity getting up and speaking THEIR mind based on what they've read/seen/heard, just as Miller has done?



4 words:
Susan Sarandon & Michael Moore

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[TheMojoPin]

4 words:
Susan Sarandon & Michael Moore

Two more words: Dennis Miller.

Like I said, Sarandon and Moore's words don't and shouldn't carry any more importance because of who they are...and by the same token, if they're going to be bashed for BEING celebrities that speak out on the war, why the hell doesn't Miller get the same? He's done nothing here except essentially parrot what he's decided is "right"...just like the others. He's just another celebrity spouting off like he knows the "answers", he's just as bad as those celebrities that oppose the war, and he was in "Joe Dirt". Three things that make him just another empty bag of hot air with an inflated paycheck.

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[Knowledged_one]

mainly because micheal moore called bush a fictious president while miller pointed out facts

fact: Libya is the head of the human rights of the un

as i said not counting the obvious jokes you have not pointed out ONE statement that isnt true

fact: sadamm would not go to the un to attack us

and fact: Bin laden would kill you for being an infidel simply because you are american

please refute one of the factual statements then we can talk

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War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is worth more then his personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of men better then himself - John Stuart Mill

[TheMojoPin]

Holy crap on a stick, I NEVER CLAIMED FOR A SECOND THAT WHAT HE SAID ISN'T TRUE.

What I HAVE continually stated is that ultimately there is no difference between Miller and Moore speaking out on the issues at hand, because the issue that's brought up almost ALWAYS with people like Moore is not even that he's wrong, but just that he's a celebrity, and because of that, he shouldn't be speaking out. If that's the case, Miller deserves the same gripes because in the end, he's trying to do the same thing: use his "celebrity status" to get his opinions on the war heard by as many people as possible. I'm not arguing whether he or Moore are right or wrong...just the fact that one is judged to be "wrong" based more on who he is than what he's actually saying, while the other is let off the hook because he's basically saying what you WANT him to say. They're both still doing the same thing!

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[JerryTaker]

fact: sadamm would not go to the un to attack us

and fact: Bin laden would kill you for being an infidel simply because you are american


ok, let's go to step one here. These are not facts, these are assumptions. They're <I>damn good</I> assumptions, and I'd assume the same thing. But they're not "facts," just by using the word "would."

just to reitterate, I agree that those are probably very true, and I also agree with Mojo about the double standard, but we really need to get our "facts" straight...


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[Knowledged_one]

mojo again the difference im saying is that miller really isnt spouting off his opinion about things like moore, it would be no different if i said them because a fact is a fact.

you are right i do think that celebrities are so out of touch with reality that they speak just because they can be heard, and the same goes for athletes and the double standard that all celebrities are treated with (but thats an issue for another time)

But the difference is you stated micheal moore and others he is talking out of his ass, while miller is reiterating the facts there is a difference. What i am saying do you refute what dennis miller says or do you agree with those comments of his

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War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is worth more then his personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of men better then himself - John Stuart Mill

[TheMojoPin]

Fine, I'll break them down one by one...

1) President Bush and Saddam Hussein.....Hussein is the bad guy.
2) If you have faith in the United Nations to do the right thing, keep this in mind. They have Libya heading the Committee on Human
Rights and Iraq heading the Global Disarmament Committee. Do your own math here.
(The US was removed from the CHR after we refused to summarily abolish the Second Amendment under Clinton: seems the UN and George Souros figured that all the urban minority homicides were the direct
result of policies by the White, suburban, elite voters. Also voting against the US and serving on the CHR are Cuba, China, and a couple of other stellar nations with model records of protecting human
rights.)
3) If you use Google search and type in "French Military Victories,"
your reply will be "Did you mean French Military Defeats?"
4) If your only anti-war slogan is "No war for oil," sue your school district for allowing you to slip through the cracks and robbing
you of the education you deserve.
5) Saddam and Bin Laden will not seek United Nations approval before they try to kill us.
6) Despite what some seem to believe, Martin Sheen is NOT the President.
He plays one on T.V.
7) Even if you are anti-war, you are still an "Infidel" and Bin Laden
wants you dead, too.
8) If you believe in a "vast right-wing conspiracy," but not in the
danger that Hussein poses, quit hanging out with the Dell
computer dude.
9) We are not trying to liberate them.
10) Whether you are for military action, or against it, our young men
and women overseas are fighting for us to defend our
> right to speak out. We
all need to support them without reservation.

1. Fact.

2. It's a fact that yes, those countires are placed in those offices. As he says himself, the rest is up for YOU to decide. So he's basically encouraging the reader to form an OPINION.

3. Joke.

4. Pretty much right. But as much of a "fact" as if you're argument is "Iraq supported/caused 9/11" or "Iraq is a direct threat to America and could attack any day!" Again, this is a joke, like #3.

5. He's right. Of course, Saddam Hussein has never attacked us, nor he has even attempted to, nor is it even apparent he could attack us. Again, the inferrence is very blatant that somehow Osama and Saddam are connected, comparable, or related. And he negates his own point by the very fact we went in without UN approval. I'm not saying this was the wrong choice...but if we don't give a fuck, why should any other nation? It's basically saying, "attack AWAY!"

6. Joke. Also a not-so-clever way to try and distance himself from other celebrity activists..."don't worry, I amy be famous, but I'm not THEM! *Wink!*"

7. Fact. But what's there to argue? There's not a person in America who thinks that Al-Queda and their ilk wouldn't kill us in a second. It's a non-existent issue.

8. Joke...I guess. It would have been hilarious 5 or 6 years ago. Again, it's not even a point to argue, so how am I even supposed to pick sides? Non-issue.

9. What? I'd like to think we are, even if it's a auxillary goal that "happens" to be accomplished along the way...he doesn't even say what we ARE trying to do. In ANY of his points. In fact, he's not even making points AT ALL...he's making observations. It's Seinfield-ian politcal humor.

10. The latter half is very true, and no sensible person thinks otherwise, though many seem to WANT to think that "liberals" hate and loathe the troops. Go figure. Just yet another two-faced, "hey, isn't it great we can express and protest what we want? Yeah, well, YOU SHOULDN'T." Cute.

So all in all, he really wasn't "proving" or "claiming" anything out of the ordinary. The majority is his opinion, outside of a handfull of facts that nobody's really disputing to begin with. So he essentially played it safe by spewing a bunch of rhetoric that nobody that actually pays attention to what's going on is going to argue to begin with. At this point, the only difference between h

[FiveB247]

I just read this whole thread...and I haven't a clue what you're arguing about.

It's just Dennis Miller guys...chill out.

[spoon]

At this point, the only difference between him and Moore I can see at this point is that Moore isn't a nobody has-been yet. I deem both to be celebrity politcal commentators/agitators, and both to be equally "useless." Good day.

You sound like d/m, aaaa! Moore can't be a has-been, since he never was. And don't bring up his recent award, that doesn't and has never influenced me. As you stated, they both have made their careers by poking fun at politics, I just think Miller used a better platform and his material was based on the current issue. Moore used this war to bring up his politcal agenda vs. that of the Republicans. The bickering bt parties is digusting, just listen to radio. The likes of Rush can't go two seconds without bashing the "liberals" and promote the republican agenda using the war. Miller spoke on his views for years and never broke it down to agendas, one way or the other. That is why I respect his opinion moore(pun intended), but like him view each issue independently. I swing on both sides of the political fence on many issues, why can't the system be changed, getting rid of the party system based fully on popular voting in all areas? The answer is simple, yet it isn't right.

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[TheMojoPin]

I like Spoon.

And "Good day, sir!" is just yet another classic, classic comedy routine brutally stolen by D&M. I demand a regime change at WJFK after this is all over.

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[Steels]

Once again the usual suspects have deterred the focus of content into the legitimacy of a person's opinion. You're anti war argument's are now consistently ridiculous and repetitive. This thread is not about Dennis Millers' credentials. This act is wearing thin quick.


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[TheMojoPin]

I just try to see things on an even keel. Anti-war celebrities are bashed more for being CELEBRITIES that speak out, period, than for what they've been saying. The implication of presenting Miller's points as is basically gives the notion that it's "OK" for HIM to speak out. I'm not debating the issues presented or who's saying what (I only broke down the list because Knowledged_one was essentially asking me to) in this case, just the apparent underlying hypocrisy of how celebrity activists are viewed. I'm NOT defending the views or the points of the "liberal" celebrities, nor attacking Miller's. The general consensus seems to be to attack anti-war celebrities for being "clueless", no matter WHAT they're saying, whereas Miller is never even questioned and is presented as being some kind of sound mind on the issue. It's clearly people not liking what's being said, but instead attacking the speaker's public standing, job or character instead of what they're saying. And by presenting that as an argument, it basically makes suspect anytime they try to use a similar source to back up their OWN points. I'm just saying, a celebrity speaking out on political events IS just a celebrity speaking out on political events, whether you like it or not, or support what they're saying. If someone is going to damn them all, it's best to be consistent.


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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-27-03 @ 3:26 AM

[TheMojoPin]

This thread is not about Dennis Millers' credentials.

Nor was it ever. I was making a joke about how Miller's 15 minutes ran out almost a good 6-7 years ago, and Moore's pretty much on his way there now. It was intended to humorously back up my point that the idea that most celebrity commentators and activists DO overstep their own knowledge and qualifications in favor of a sort of, "look at me, I'm a celebrity, and MY opinion is actually MORE important than yours!"...since in the end they can only be as informed as the rest of us, yet they present themselves as some kind of spokespeople FOR us. Thanks, but I don't need the help...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-27-03 @ 3:56 AM

[curtoid]

10 things I considered after reading Miller's insight...

1) President Bush is responsible for making himself seen as the bad guy in much of the
world.

2) Goinig against the UN has strengthed our enemies, as well as some of our "friends"

3) Without the French the United States would still be a British Colony,

4) "No war for oil" is not my anti-war chant...however it is interesting that our ground
troops went in so early in order to protect the oil fields.

5) Bin Laden and Saddam are different stories; Saddam can be contained, Bin Laden
can't, and still hasn't.

6) Actually the guy on "24" is my favorite tv president

7) Using Osama as a reason for targeting Saddam is insanity - why didn't the United
States bomb China for Pearl Harbor?

8) No, I don't believe in a "vast right-wing conspiracy" - oh wait...what about the
"Project for the New American Century?" Hmmmm...

9) The same people who tried to make us believe that we were going in there to
liberate the people of Iraq are the same anti-peace cretins who now want to nuke
them.

10) I do support our troops without reservation. I live within ear-shot of Ft. Meyer here
in Arlington, and I get a chill every evening they play "taps." I hope, for our country's
sake, that we DO find WMDs out the ying -yang, and I am scared that they might use
them - I have a good friend who is over there.

Take care,


[KOP]