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Some clarification on some major Iraq-related issues... [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

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TheMojoPin
03-27-2003, 06:30 PM
First off, I know this posting an entire article, but I think it might really help clear up a lot of arguments on both sides of the issue of the war in Iraq. It's well-written and includes several dozen sources and links. Jeff, if you want to go ahead and pull it, or delete the article, I'll go ahead and include the link at the bottom instead to take up less room...I just think it might help a lot of people out (Myself included) in sorting out a few of the major issues of the day.

[quote]Myths and misconceptions about Iraq
By Bryan Keefer, Ben Fritz and Brendan Nyhan
March 20, 2003

As war begins in Iraq, this column is intended to serve as a resource. It highlights major fallacies and disproven and highly debatable claims from the debate over US policy toward Iraq. Please note we can only deal with issues that have been conclusively or near-conclusively addressed on the public record. Claims about the future (what will happen in Iraq or the U.S.) or about motives (why President Bush, Congressional leaders and others are making the choices they are) are non-falsifiable in almost every case; they cannot be conclusively proven or disproven by available information. For this reason, we do not generally address these types of statements except in cases such as obviously absurd predictions or cheap soundbite-style attacks on motives. Similarly, we cannot take positions on factual disputes involving murky intelligence-related issues.

There are, however, a number of myths and misconceptions on both sides of this debate that can be fairly addressed. Below, we note and analyze some examples that we believe are important and clear-cut cases of deception, misrepresentation, and faulty logic.

Was Iraq connected to the September 11 attacks?

A debate continues to rage over whether and to what extent Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq is connected to Al Qaeda. Experts disagree about the evidence of such a connection. However, several of the specific instances cited by US and British officials as evidence for such a link have apparently not held up to close scrutiny, though the matter remains unresolved.

It is clear, however, that there is no evidence of a supposed Iraqi connection to the September 11 terrorist attacks . Yet a significant percentage of the American public appears to believe, falsely, that Iraq or Iraqis were involved. In fact, none of the hijackers were Iraqi citizens, and even the most ardent backers of war with Iraq have not presented evidence that Saddam was involved in any way with the attacks or attackers themselves.

Polls have also repeatedly found that much of the public thinks Saddam contributed to the September 11 attacks. Forty-two percent of those surveyed in a February New York Times/CBS poll said they believed Saddam was "personally involved" in the September 11 attacks (down from the 51 percent who believed so this September 2002). A January Knight Ridder poll found that roughly one-fourth of the public believe that President Bush has released evidence showing that Iraq helped plan and fund the attacks. Yet no evidence has been presented by any source to suggest that Saddam had any involvement whatsoever with the September 11 hijackers.

Many also believe that some of the September 11 hijackers were Iraqis. The January Knight Ridder poll found that just over half of those surveyed answered, incorrectly, that at least one of the hijackers was an Iraqi. In fact, none of them were. Most are believed to have been Saudi citizens; Mohammed Atta, the alleged leader of the group, was Egyptian.

Did a 1998 IAEA report say Iraq was six months from developing a nuclear weapon?

It is currently unknown whether Iraq has an ongoing nuclear program or what the extent of any such program might be. But many of the claims that have been made about Saddam's nuclear ambitions have been misleading or false.

First, as we have demonstrated, President Bush and his representatives repeatedly dissembled last year with regard to Iraq's nuclear capabilities. On Sept. 7, 2002, Bush said, "I would remind y

HBox
03-27-2003, 06:48 PM
Did Iraq attempt to purchase uranium from Niger?


First they're selling crack, now nuclear material?

silera
03-27-2003, 06:53 PM
I readd it gfo mme!



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TooCute
03-27-2003, 06:59 PM
I readd it gfo mme!


No more codeine for you!

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Death Metal Moe
03-27-2003, 07:21 PM
A January Knight Ridder poll found....


http://www.azhiaziam.com/sys-tmpl/nss-folder/aircontestpics/AzhiaziaM%20Knight%20Rider.JPG

My polls have a +/-4% on them Michael.

Michael, your pose scares me.

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FiveB247
03-27-2003, 09:53 PM
Mojo...this has got to be some sort of Leftist conspiracy from liberal newspapers....right? haha

Bigden
03-28-2003, 04:54 AM
Jeeze why should I believe those people some sort of experts. Obviously educated by tenured ex-60's radical professors who don't understand how good they have it. Typical I would like to hear from some real experts once and awhile.

silera
03-28-2003, 05:26 AM
Jeeze why should I believe those people some sort of experts... blah blah blah


Did you even read the article?

I'm so fucking sick of reading posts like yours, where any information that does not fully support your opinion on the war and the facts leading up to it is dismissed based on assumptions about the qualification of the writer.

The article is clearly unbiased, and dispels or asserts commonly used assumptions made by BOTH sides of the issues.

I guess an expert to you would be someone that completely validated your opinion on the war.



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<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
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high fly
03-29-2003, 09:47 AM
They're not experts if they fail to conform to his view.

" and they ask me why I drink"

TheGameHHH
03-29-2003, 09:58 AM
I guess an expert to you would be someone that completely validated your opinion on the war.
Isn't that what the term expert means?

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King Imp
03-29-2003, 02:51 PM
This is fine and all, but I have a question. I'm not dismissing this just because I see things differently, but who exactly are these guys to be considered experts on the matter? Who are they to claim they know more info than the rest of us?

I read the article and a lot of it made sense, but a lot of it also came off as opinion forced on us as fact.

TheMojoPin
03-29-2003, 09:32 PM
1. It's not "forced" on anyone.

2. They're not claiming to be experts. They just cull as much relevant and accurate information as they can from as many sources as possible and present in an easily readable form. All of the sources and references are sited and directly linked so that anyone can check the info at its source if they have issues with it. Whether the source is "liberal" or "conservative" isn't really the point of the site...they go out of their way to find the facts that are agreed on by most parties to be true. And as this article alone shows, they are constantly revising, correcting and changing so as to present the most accurate, unbiased, non-"spun" info at any given time. If they make a mistake, they readily admit it and correct it. A way to slice through the bullshit...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-30-03 @ 1:36 AM

high fly
03-30-2003, 11:08 AM
Mojo's long quote at the top contains sensible arguments that indicate that it is not a war for oil.
I have read that Iraq produces 10-14 billion dollars of oil per year. Can anyone confirm this statistic?
If that's the case, given the estimates of the cost of the war, it would help shoot down the idea that it's a war for oil.

" and they ask me why I drink"

TheMojoPin
03-31-2003, 08:35 AM
Topped.

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FiveB247
03-31-2003, 08:40 AM
I'm not going to argue that this war is for oil. But it is a factor in the realm of reasons. The US has in recent history supported dictators similar to Saddam. So obviously, our national interest for oil is a factor (whether large or small).

Iraq has the 2nd largest oil supply in the world. Currently they do not use their oil resource to full capacity. With full production, they would largely influence the oil market prices as well as lessen the influence of OPEC as price setters, especially with US influence in Iraq reconstruction.
http://www.cfr.org/background/background_iraq_oil.php

Chances are, with the top oil occupier at 25%(Saudi Arabia) of the world's production, a nation with 10% holds important leverage to the entire market. With such resolve and distinction in the area, a war with Iraq by the US could lead to weakening the ties of the unstable or unwanted Middle East unrest the US complicates itself into. If such a scenario should occur, in business or economic terms, it is commonly known as "cornering the market".or as most call it collusion.





This message was edited by FiveB247 on 3-31-03 @ 1:00 PM

Bigden
04-01-2003, 06:37 AM
Colusion- you mean like the accountants and Ceo's of ENROB or WORLDCON?