Iraq and the palestinians

[HordeKing1]

PALESTINIANS MAKE THEIR WAY TO FIGHT IN IRAQ

NICOSIA [MENL] -- Hundreds of Palestinians have arrived in Iraq to fight for the regime of President Saddam Hussein.

Palestinian sources in Lebanon said members of the Fatah movement led by Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat have been deployed in Baghdad. They said the Palestinians are training to serve as suicide attackers for Saddam.

"What is happening in Iraq is the battle of the Palestinian people first and the Arab and Muslim nation second," Col. Munir Maqdeh, the Fatah commander in Lebanon, told the Israeli Arab weekly A-Sinara.

Maqdeh said one Fatah contingent has already been deployed in Baghdad. Another group of Fatah insurgents is scheduled to follow shortly, he said.

NOTE: This is not the full text of the article.

This service contains only a small portion of the information produced daily by Middle East Newsline. For a subscription to the full service, please contact Middle East Newsline at:
editor@menewsline.com for further details.



Comment - So Yasser is bringing troops to help his friend Saddam. America, land that I love, remember this when the war is over and Saddam is dust: The friend of my enemy is my enemy.

When Saddam is dead and gone, don't empower his friend and counterpart, the
despicable little Arafat and his band of merry thugs. Don't give them land, and power. If we're lucky, enough "Palestinians" will fight for Saddam to end the problem of the "Palestinian" State forever. There just won't be any "Palestinians..." (Not that there ever were.)

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[FUNKMAN]

Don't give them land, and power.


i do not agree with the Palestinians tactics but just have a question:

Do you feel that land was unjustly taken away from them and should Israel agree to stop building further on the territory that the Palestinians believe is theirs...

What would be a good resolution in your mind?

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[Meatball]

I think america is learning lots of unpleasant lessons.

Soldiers shot a car full of women and children when they didnt stop at a check point. sad but Totally justified. When israelis shot women and children who didnt stop at checkpoints..( its HArd to see and make judgements in 5 seconds as a van is careening at you)
Israel was told over and over to "use restraint"
etc...

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[whoopsy]

Don't give them land, and power. If we're lucky, enough "Palestinians" will fight for Saddam to end the problem of the "Palestinian" State forever. There just won't be any "Palestinians..." (Not that there ever were.)


Horde King - you kill me with this stuff, you really do. You come off as reasonable and informed on the air, but posts such as this make me lose a lot of respect. I've read and traveled enough to know that this conflict is certainly not one-sided. Can I infer from your post that your solution to the violence between Israel and the Palestinians is the extermination of the Palestinian people? Good evening, my name is Horde King, and I'm a religious zealot...

[ChickenHawk]

whoopsy - If you knew anything about Horde King, you'd know that he is ANYTHING BUT a religious zealot. He's a complete and devout atheist.

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[silera]

Let's go play with trucks or something.










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[FiveB247]

That is exactly the problem...both sides feel from their religious books and beliefs that god gave them the land. You can't reason with unreasonable people. Hopefully each side will be able to stabalize their own extemists in order to gain a peaceful settlement for all.

[whoopsy]

Hawk - Silera

Yeah, maybe I should stay off the politics board for a while, it's just that posts like this fire me up. Horde King is too intelligent to come busting out with this redneck "kill em all" rhetoric

[HordeKing1]

If the so called palestinians continue to attack Israel, than I absolutely advocate their extermination.

If they stop, they can return to their native counties, and not worry about the minute land that is Israel's.

It's funny someone called me a religous zealot. As pointed out above I'm a devout atheist who thinks all religions are bad and wacky.

Christiantiy and Judaism are harmful to the individual and to society in it's practice. The Moslem religion is fundementally evil. And yes, I've read the old and new testemant and the toilet paper known as the koran.

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[GrimSanity]

If the so called palestinians


i hate to tell you but there are palestinians. sorry man but i'm all for palestinians i feel isreal stole there land and i think it's the US news madeing up the story to make it sound like they hate us. it's getting to a point were what mideastern state doesn't hate us. we are buddies with isreal so of couse we want to help them. Palestinians want there land back they don't care about iraq. i know lots of palestinians and they say it's US bullshit.. i'm sorry but hordeking i expleced alitte more unbiaest option than what you typed.

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Real serial killers carry an ax watching there heads drip like candle wax and your labled just another victim.

This message was edited by GrimSanity on 4-1-03 @ 2:36 AM

[TheGameHHH]

I say God gave me the land, therefore it's rightfully mine.

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[DarkHippie]

look out Horde King. they disagree with you. I guess that means that they're antisemetic, right?

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[FiveB247]

Horde King. You forgot to mention how Israel continues growth of the settlements. As well as having the policy of burning the houses of Palestians who's relatives or families commit suicide bombings.

I find it funny how a Jew or supporter of them can justify or seriously mention 'extermination' of a race of people. What ever happend to "Never Again"? Or was that just for the Jews.....

[DarkHippie]

What ever happend to "Never Again"? Or was that just for the Jews.....
When I say "never again" I mean it for all people. How magnanimous of me.

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[JerryTaker]

As well as having the policy of burning the houses of Palestians who's relatives or families commit suicide bombings.


Why don't you tell me how to deter someone who has no regard for his own life?


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[TheMojoPin]

Can we just give Israel and Palestine some leaders that aren't "old skool"? These war-happy fucks aren't helping anyone.

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[JerryTaker]

Can we just give Israel and Palestine some leaders that aren't "old skool"?

are you saying that this country should choose new leaders for countries in the middle east? we're not in the business of doing that, are we?



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[FiveB247]

When I say "never again" I mean it for all people.

I know! That's exactly the point.

Why don't you tell me how to deter someone who has no regard for his own life?

That's exactly it...You are blaming and hurting the families of these people. Not the person doing the harm. It creates enemies and hostilities from ones not creating the terror.
In this nation, we don't punish families or relatives of those who commit crimes. It's not justice and it's not logical.

[TheMojoPin]

That's exactly it...You are blaming and hurting the families of these people. Not the person doing the harm. It creates enemies and hostilities from ones not creating the terror.
In this nation, we don't punish families or relatives of those who commit crimes. It's not justice and it's not logical.

Well, it IS somewhat logical...the standpoint of the Israeli government is that it will act as a deterrent to future suicide bombers, that they'll reconsider going through with it if it means that their families will suffer because of what they did afterwards...I'm not saying it works or will ever work, but there IS a plan...

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[FiveB247]

Well, it IS somewhat logical...the standpoint of the Israeli government is that it will act as a deterrent to future suicide bombers, that they'll reconsider going through with it if it means that their families will suffer because of what they did afterwards...I'm not saying it works or will ever work, but there IS a plan...

The families have little to do with it. They do not know of or help organize a plan for a bombing. The Israeli government could also execute the families...that would set an example too. But that doesn't mean it should be considered or carried out.

If anything, that policy enables and further condenses the regular, non-violent Palestinians towards the side of fundamentalists and extremists. It gives people more reason to hate and loathe Israel and it's government. It does quite the opposite of setting a positive example.

[Bestinshow]

The families have little to do with it. They do not know of or help organize a plan for a bombing.
Then why is it leaders of terrorist states offer financial rewards to the families as incentives? The way that works as incentive, demolishing their homes has the opposite effect.
Also, why does nobody complain about the thousands of Palestinians that live on Israeli soil? Israel is not allowed to deport them. Why must we allow foreigners to live on our land, Israel must allow foreigners to live on their land but the Palastinians have the sympathy of so many for practicing the same intolerance that so many hipocrites detest?

Israel has stated on many occasions that they will back Palestinian statehood if the murder would stop. Most Israeli`s are for that.
If the palestinians don`t believe it, why don`t they call their bluff? What do they have to lose by not blowing up any buses and coffee shops for 8 or 9 months?

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[FiveB247]

Your clear assumptions that all Palestinians are or support terrorism is faulty. You also obviously make mention that Israel allows Palestinians to live in their country? There are several millions of Palestinians that are Israeli citizens. You clearly are biasing your argument just to the side of Israel. You seem to leave out the part about Israel's continuing growth of the settlements. As well as many of the human rights abuses Israel uses, which was stated by Colin Powell...today!

The only reason Israel still holds an upper hand in the peace settlement issues is due to US support and their control of the lands now. The initial UN partisan plan set up borders for both Palestine and Israel. The same borders Israel holds now, not including the acquired territories from wars and such.

If the US seriously takes a stand for a peace in the Middle East, Israel will be a party in the negotiations...not just a US supported nation. Something they haven't been previously. The US will play mediator, not Israel's supporter to create peace. Both sides need to make adjustments in order to create peace and stability...not just one over the other.

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 4-1-03 @ 4:39 PM

[Recyclerz]

Israel has stated on many occasions that they will back Palestinian statehood if the murder would stop. Most Israeli`s are for that.
If the palestinians don`t believe it, why don`t they call their bluff? What do they have to lose by not blowing up any buses and coffee shops for 8 or 9 months?

The Palestinian terrorists lose their ability to radicalize the populations on both sides thereby keeping alive the fiction in their minds and rhetoric that Israel can be destroyed. If the asswad Arafat had the moral and physical courage to take the deal (and live up to it) that Barak was offering several years ago, the world would look a lot better than it does today. The onus is now on the Palestinian moderates to stand up to the terrorists and put up someone who can and will cut a deal with Israel that recognizes the political and demographic realities of the region.



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[Bestinshow]

You also obviously make mention that Israel allows Palestinians to live in their country? There are several millions of Palestinians that are Israeli citizens. You clearly are biasing your argument just to the side of Israel.
Really, so the only problem you have is citizenship? So if these Israelis living in the settlements were citizens of Palestine, you would have no trouble with them living there?
Do you think the Palestinians would go for that also? Something tells me I know the answer to those questions. Maybe you should look in the mirror. It is you that has bias in your argument. I never said all Palestinians were terrorists. The problem is just with the ones that strap bombs to themselves and target school children for death.Unfortunately, this is backed by their government. Do you justify terrorism because of people sharing your land? Can we start that here? The Israelis are profectly happy to live next to the Palestinians if they were left alone. Can you say that about the Palestinians? Your answer to that question will clearly state your bias.

By the way, Israel has attempted peace negotiations. Sharon finally walked away from the table and refused to negotiate until the murder stopped. I think you need to get your facts straight before you make your argument.

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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 4-1-03 @ 6:40 PM

[ADF]

Your clear assumptions that all Palestinians are or support terrorism is faulty. You also obviously make mention that Israel allows Palestinians to live in their country? There are several millions of Palestinians that are Israeli citizens. You clearly are biasing your argument just to the side of Israel. You seem to leave out the part about Israel's continuing growth of the settlements.


I don't disagree with everything you said, but I have to ask this.. is English your primary language? You seem to have half of a brain, but reading your sentences gives me a headache.

I forgive Israel's human rights abuses in the light of the terrible and nonsensical terrorism they have to deal with on a daily basis. If the Palestinians and other Arab nations would just sit on their hands for a few years, the Palestinians would have autonomy. The nations that are supporting Palestinian terrorism (such as Iraq) don't care about the Palestinians... they're being used as an instrument of destruction because of the blind hatred those nations carry for a Jewish nation that just wants to be left alone.

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[FiveB247]

is English your primary language? You seem to have half of a brain, but reading your sentences gives me a headache.

English is my primary language. If you prefer, I can write a bit more plain and simpler so you don't hurt your poor little brain reading. I do apologize though. I take it you don't read many political commentary or historical books. Many are in the same type of style I write in (at least the one I prefer). I'll try to keep it on a 10th grade level for you.

Ps...I find it amusing you get a headache...haha

[silera]

Cotton candy tastes like clouds.



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<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
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[high fly]

I'm with you all the way, Horde King.
Here's a couple of things I'd like to throw in the mix:
Note that the leader of Islamic Jihad, Shalah Ramadan just met with the Iraqi ambassador in Damascas to let him know that IJ was sending "a brigade of suicide fighters" into Iraq to help out Saddam. What is significant in this is that Islamic Jihad is a Shiite group backed by Iran. There has been a misunderstanding regarding terrorists that primarily Shia groups will not ever work with Sunnis.
Secondly, it is sad to see some who wish to excuse attacks on civilians by the Palestinian terrorist groups, going into it's 5th decade now,even when they kill Americans.
To them I would point out that had the PLO etc committed themselves to a nonviolent strategy, such as that used by Ghandi or Martin Luther King, they would have had their Palestinian state decades ago.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[ADF]

English is my primary language. If you prefer, I can write a bit more plain and simpler so you don't hurt your poor little brain reading. I do apologize though. I take it you don't read many political commentary or historical books. Many are in the same type of style I write in (at least the one I prefer). I'll try to keep it on a 10th grade level for you.



Naw, it's not that. I was a poli-sci minor in college. Your writing is just god-awful. It's as if you're on the tip of saying something, but your grammar and punctuation get in the way. Perhaps you should keep it on a tenth grade level, as it's something closer to your capabilities.

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This message was edited by ADF on 4-1-03 @ 8:55 PM

[Bergalad]

Getting into this a little late, but...
but i'm all for palestinians i feel isreal stole there land

It was given to Israel by the UN. The Palestinians are being used as pawns. Read about it a little then we can discuss.
The families have little to do with it. They do not know of or help organize a plan for a bombing. The Israeli government could also execute the families...that would set an example too. But that doesn't mean it should be considered or carried out.

Ready for something radical? I would not be opposed to killing the families of suicide bombers. The families know quite well what is going on, and their complicity is clear. Israel, no matter what your ideological bent may be, is fighting for it's life against nations who hate it. The Palestinians are tools used by these hostile nations to destabilize Israel, and frankly I would not protest too much if Israel expanded it's program of punishing families of suicide bombers. It's easy to rail against Israel when we don't feel the pain as they do, but after 9/11, who didn't feel like we should get back at the terrorists any way possible? This is what Israel goes through every few weeks...

[IrishAlkey]

I was a poli-sci minor in college.


Minor?

I'm a poli-sci major.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

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[TheMojoPin]

Pipe-smokers.

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[HordeKing1]

Hippie, I don't think you're anti-semitic, I think you're an idealist woefully ignorant of the history of the region and the reality of the world in general.

FACT: The "palestinians" do not want peace. They want all Israel and all jews dead.

FACT: The overwhelming majority (so overwhelming as to consider it virtually all) of Arabic Muslims support their religious war against israel.

FACT: Israel does not occupy any land, any more than America occupies it's land.


Perhaps you identify with the palestinians, syrians, iraquis, saudis, iranians, and their ilk. Perhaps you're comfortable turning a blind eye to facts and/or simply choose to ignore that they want the destruction of Israel and all Jews (to be followed by the destruction of Christians and all non-Muslims). Perhaps you believe that appeasing an enemy whose primary focus of their culture is training their children to kill you will somehow be a good thing. (We know how well that worked in WWII.)

More likely though, your blind idealism coupled by inexperience, youth, ignorance and naivete prevents you from seeing reality instead of fantasy.

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[HordeKing1]

THE 'SETTLEMENTS' ISSUE
By Joseph Farah

Once again, we're hearing that awful word again in the context of the Middle East debate. "Settlements." That's what the conflict is all about, we're being told. That's why the Arabs are mad at the Israelis. That's the root of the violence, the terrorism, the hatred.

U.S. Ambassador to Israel Daniel Kurtzer raised the ugly specter of "settlement" recently in a speech last week. Kurtzer, the former ambassador to Egypt and one of the architects of the failed peace process, once again blamed Israel as an obstacle to peace.

"Israeli settlement activity cripples chances for real peace," he said. He also underlined with emphasis and a pregnant pause this conclusion: "Settlement activity must stop."

What about these "settlements"? What are they? Why are they bad? Why should they be stopped?

I think most Americans and most non-Israelis draw certain mental pictures when they hear this term. I know I did before I began visiting "settlements" in Israel. I discovered they were not armed camps. They were not frontier outposts in alien territory. They were not fortresses built to grab more land for Jews. No. Much to my surprise, I found these "settlements" to be nothing more than communities - peaceful Jewish communities that don't interfere with nor abrogate anyone else's rights. They reminded me of suburban developments in Southern California more than threats to peace.

The word "settlement" itself is loaded. Who is a "settler" in the Mideast? ACCORDING TO THE ARABS, ONLY JEWS ARE SETTLERS. But that simply is not the case.

Arafat himself was born in Egypt. He later moved to Jerusalem. If, at the moment, he is living in the West Bank, he is a "settler" there, not a native. Indeed, most of the Arabs living within the borders of Israel today have come from some other Arab country at some time in their life. They are all "settlers."

For instance, just since the beginning of the [disasterous] Oslo Accords, [where the US forced Israel to release the terrorist Mohammud Atta from jail - you may have heard of him] hundreds of thousands of Arabs have entered the West Bank or Gaza - and never left. They have come from Jordan, Egypt and, indirectly, from every other Arab country you can name - and many non-Arab countries as well. These surely aren't "Palestinians." [There is no such thing as a palestinian].

Since 1967, the Arabs have built 261 settlements in the West Bank. We don't hear much about those settlements. We hear instead about the number of Jewish settlements that have been created. We hear how destabilizing they are - how
provocative they are. Yet, by comparison, only 144 Jewish settlements have been built since 1967 - including those surrounding Jerusalem, in the West Bank and in Gaza. Why is it that only Jewish construction is destabilizing?

The Arab "settlement" activity is not new. This has always been the case. Arabs have been flocking to Israel ever since it was created. And that raises a question I never hear anyone ask: If Israel's policies make life so intolerable for Arabs, why do they continue to flock to the Jewish state? Why aren't they leaving in droves if conditions are as bad as they say?

The truth? There is more freedom under Israeli rule than there is in any Arab country. If you're a headstrong Arab, bent on protest, this is the place to be. Don't try throwing stones at Syrian police. You won't live long. Don't try publishing anti-kingdom newspapers in Saudi Arabia. You won't live long. Don't try fomenting revolutionary jihadism in Egypt. You won't live long.

So, sooner or later, those who are determined to protest, the professional agitators, the future Arafats of the Arab world all come to Israel. The Arab world is happy to be rid of them. This exodus serves two purposes - limiting the threat to Arab regimes and fanning the uniting flames of anti-Israel hatred. It's a population safety valve the totalitarian Arab world just loves.

Prior to 1900, the entire region was a barren wasteland with low populations of Jews, Mu

[high fly]

Get-em Horde King, get-em!

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

I don't care who was there first.

I care about who's there NOW.

Israel needs to put up and deport ALL of the Palestinians and seal their goddman borders or shut up. It's that simple. The only other option is to kill Arafat, which unfortunately would probably set off WW3.

There's no "middle ground" with the current pigheaded Palestinian regime under Arafat. Israel should shut off the borders, and when Arafat can't point to the "relocation" and bulldozers and soldiers as being the source of the Palestinians' problems, and I think he'd be out of power pretty fast, either through election or more sudden, immediate means.

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[CaptClown]

Excellent post HK!!

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[JiZ]

My name is JiZ and i'm a religious zealot. I think Israel deserves the land after winning the "7 Day War" in 1967. Before you say that Israel is simply occupying the land, I suggest we all pack our bags and give this land back to the American Indian. This land was basically stolen from them through poorly written treaties then benefitted only the whites that INVADED this land. Even as a Jew, I can say that the only group of people who suffered more were and are the American Indian.

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Golda Meir

This message was edited by JiZ on 4-2-03 @ 10:05 PM

[whoopsy]

Israel needs to put up and deport ALL of the Palestinians and seal their goddman borders or shut up. It's that simple. The only other option is to kill Arafat, which unfortunately would probably set off WW3.

There's no "middle ground" with the current pigheaded Palestinian regime under Arafat. Israel should shut off the borders, and when Arafat can't point to the "relocation" and bulldozers and soldiers as being the source of the Palestinians' problems, and I think he'd be out of power pretty fast, either through election or more sudden, immediate means.


** COMEDY PYRAMID, COMEDY PYRAMID **

Mojo, your sigs are kick-ass, but your post displays gross ignorance of this situation. Start by asking why the US is LITERALLY the only country on Earth that supports the Israelis in this conflict. Is it because the whole of Europe is anti-Semetic - some on the board would have you believe that. Is it because we have some moral superiority and every other country "just doesn't see what we see"? If you're willing to invest the time, then start reading news stories from national and international newspapers to get a more balanced take. I'm not pro-Palestinian at all, and I don't want to get labelled as the punk Palestinian sympathizer, my only point is that this is not as clear-cut as some here would present. If it was truly as simple as "those crazy Palestinian troublemakers and their delusional suicide bombers" (which, admittedly, is tough to get past because they're so heinously wrong), then maybe there would be another country besides the US that supports the Israeli position.

[TheMojoPin]

If you're willing to invest the time, then start reading news stories from national and international newspapers to get a more balanced take.

Heh.

Oh Lordy, did that make me smile...I mean, go ahead and think I wasn't already...

I was clearly diferentiating between ARAFAT and his supporters and the Palestinians themselves. My issue is with Arafat and his two-faced, backpeddling attempts at diplomacy.

I'm not trying to pick sides on this. The Israelis and Palestinians piss me off to no end on this issue. But I honestly think Israel needs to set their borders and seal them off from non-Israelis for the time being until a significant regime change can take place with the Palestinians. NOTHING will change as long as Arafat is in charge, because he caters far too much to the extremists that ruin any chances the other Palestinians can have to establishing a land for themselves. He also provides an easy target for "old skool", hardline Israeli politicians to use as grounds to be elected on. BOTH nationalities seriously need a new generation of leaders to start moving in to replace those who were around for the wars 40-50 years ago. There hasn't been an Israeli leader since Rabin that didn't allow their pride to keep them from backing down, and Arafat is simply a breathing joke. As long as he holds power, there's no hope for either side. The Palestinians NEED to learn that he's no good for them, and I think at this the only thing that's going to smack them awake short of fullscale Israeli violence is for them to step up and dump Arafat. Until then, nothing changes.

Crap...this is really my least favorite ongoing political topic, because it's such a stalemate where NOBODY will bend. I honestly cried when I heard Rabin had been shot, because it honestly seemed like any hope of having this resolved in my parents' lifetime was killed along with him...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-3-03 @ 12:45 AM

[LiquidCourage]

"i know lots of palestinians and they say it's US bullshit.. "


You know plenty of Americanized, sane Palestinians.

Big difference.

[high fly]

I just read about a plot to kill Colin Powell when he was over visiting Arafat a year or so ago. It seems it was when the good chairman was confined [again] to one of those compounds by the Israelis.
We had Anthony Zinni over there, with Powell on the way.
Arafat asked Zinni if he would help them to get the body of a Palestinian policeman out of the compound for burial.
Zinni got the ok and they sent out the body in a hearse. The hearse was stopped a short time later by the Israelis who found it packed with explosives, parked along the road that Colin Powell was about to travel down.
Of course Arafat denied all knowledge of the plot to kill Powell, and I imagine there are a few dolts out there that believe it.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

Alright, let's try something here.

Israel is in the middle of a pretty large region of the world where the ruling parties hate Isarael's guts.

So the "solution", at least based on some of the claimed reasoning for invading Iraq, is to forcibly invade all of the countries EXCEPT Israel in the region to make that one country "safe"?

Look, Israel should be there. It's their country. But wouldn't it be less drawn-out and damaging to America if we just helped Israel to seal off its borders and become a nation unto itself? What do they "need" any of the Arab nations for? Can't they just trade with us, Europe and Asia? Seems like it would be a much quicker solution, and we wouldn't have to have American soldiers being killed left and right in long, dangerous occupations.

This is a purely hypothetical question. It's discounting many of the other factors as to why we've invaded Iraq. It's just a question in regards to the "we're making Israel safe" part of the argument. By that line of reasoning we'd have to pretty much invade ALL of the Middle Eastern countries and get rid of the ruling parties, like Iraq. Just doesn't seem very practical...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-4-03 @ 7:03 PM

[Adamx]

Just watched the news during dubie time. Good old Palastininans dancing in the street again. Burning our flag. same old story. I was starting to feel sorry for them but Sept 11 stopped that.

Inside ever Iraqi is an American trying to get out. Jump on them team and come on in for the big win. Ooo RAH!!

[FiveB247]

It makes me chucke when people bring up support for 9-11 as a reference point to be against another nation. Iraq, Palestine, etc... but where were the people from that carried out 9-11? Certainly not the same places you are naming.

[TooCute]

chucke

Is that like an up-chuck and puke all in one? EEW! Groaty!

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[Se7en]

It makes me chucke when people bring up support for 9-11 as a reference point to be against another nation. Iraq, Palestine, etc... but where were the people from that carried out 9-11? Certainly not the same places you are naming.

You mean I shouldn't be against another country because its citizens danced in the street because 3,000 of my fellow Americans died as a result of hatred and religious / cultural intolerance bred in their own Arabic / Muslim societies?

Oh well.

<img border="0" src="http://Se7enRFNet.homestead.com/files/se7en.jpg" width="300" height="100">

I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

"I was here before the oceans turned black with life, and when the deserts are white with death I will remain."
---Saint Iago

[TheMojoPin]

Dancing in the street over the death of ANYONE is just a dick move, period. I don't look at any Arabs doing that after 9/11 as "misunderstood" or "brainwashed"...there's such a thing as overwhelming propoganda, and another to willingly take pleasure it what ultimately was a mass slaughter of innocents. There were plenty of Arabs that DIDN'T do this, and as such, the one's that did deserve NOTHING.

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[Lummox]

I'll go utopian for once and suggest that were it not for organized religion, none of this crap would be occuring at all right now. My limited knowledge of history points to religion as basically the root cause of every war, ever. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-war -and I'll quote roughly the great Kurt Vonnegut (to his dismay) "there will always be wars and they're as easy to stop as glaciers" because people are exactly that- people. As long as there are people with religious beliefs on earth, there will be conflict, period. Some say we should give peace a chance... more than happy to, but someone will come and steal your picnic basket while your laying naked in the field, sunning your peaceful self. Point is, this crap will never go away, so just deal with it, and let the Palestinians and Jews work this out for themselves. But that will never happen as long as they are all human.

Peace through superior firepower...

[high fly]

It's not just organized religion; it's bigger than that.
People tend to hate "the other", whether it's those of a different race, national origin or anything else that makes them different.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[HordeKing1]

Was there anyone insane enough to actually doubt that Europe is fiercely anti-semetic?

Here's a very very brief collection of recent incidents:

In Belgium, thugs beat up the chief rabbi, kicking him in the face and calling him "a dirty Jew."

Two synagogues in Brussels were firebombed; a third, in Charleroi, was sprayed with automatic weapon fire.

In Britain, the cover of the New Statesman, a left-wing magazine, depicted a large Star of David stabbing the Union Jack.

Oxford professor Tom Paulin, a noted poet, told an Egyptian interviewer that American Jews who move to the West Bank and Gaza "shou ld be shot dead."

A Jewish yeshiva student reading the Psalms was stabbed 27 times on a London bus.

"Anti-Semitism", wrote a columnist in The Spectator, "has become respectable. . . at London dinner tables." She quoted one member of the House of Lords: "The Jews have been asking for it and now, thank God, we can say what we
think at last."

In Italy, the daily paper La Stampa published a Page 1 cartoon: A tank emblazoned with a Jewish star points its gun at the baby Jesus, who pleads, "Surely they don't want to kill me again?"

In Corriere Della Sera, another cartoon showed Jesus trapped in his tomb, unable to rise, because Ariel Sharon, with rifle in hand, is sitting on the sepulcher. The caption: "Non resurrexit."

In Germany, a rabbinical student was beaten up in downtown Berlin and a grenade was thrown into a Jewish cemetery. Thousands of neo-Nazis held a rally, march ing near a synagogue on the Jewish Sabbath. Graffiti appeared on a synagogue in the western town of Herford: "Six million were not enough."

In Ukraine, skinheads attacked Jewish worshippers and smashed the windows of Kiev's main synagogue. Ukrainian police denied that the attack was anti-Jewish.

In Greece, Jewish graves were desecrated in Loannina and vandals hurled paint at the Holocaust memorial in Salonica.

In Holland, an anti-Israel demonstration featured swastikas, photos of Hitler, and chants of "Sieg Heil" and "Jews into the sea."

In Slovakia, the Jewish cemetery of Kosice was invaded and 135 tombstone destroyed.

But nowhere have the flames of anti-Semitism burned more furiously than in France:

In Lyon, a car was rammed into a synagogue and set on fire. In Montpellier, the Jewish religious center was firebombed; so were synagogues in Strasbourg and Marseille; so was a Jewish school in Creteil. A Jewish sports club
in Toulouse was attacked with Molotov cocktails, and on the statue of Alfred Dreyfus in Paris, the words "Dirty Jew" was painted. In Bondy, 15 men beat up members of a Jewish football team with sticks and metal bars. The
bus that takes Jewish children to school in Aubervilliers has been attacked three times in the last 14 months.

According to the police, metropolitan Paris has seen 10 to 12 anti-Jewish incidents per day since Easter. Walls in Jewish neighborhoods have been defaced with slogans proclaiming "Jews to the gas chambers" and "Death to the Jews." The weekly journal Le Nouvel Observateur published an appalling libel: It said Israeli soldiers rape Palestinian women, so that their relatives will kill them to preserve "family honor."

The French ambassador to Great Britain was not sacked -- and did not apologize -- when it was learned that he had told guests at a London dinner that the world's troubles were the! fault of "that shitty little country, Israel."

"At the start of the 21st century," writes Pierre-Andre Taguieff, a well-known social scientist, in a new book, "we are discovering that Jews are once again select targets of violence . . . Hatred of the Jews has returned to France." But of course, it never left. Not France; not Europe.

Anti-Semitism, the oldest bigotry known to man, has been a part of European society since time immemorial. In the aftermath of the Holocaust, open Jew-hatred became unfashionable; but fashions change, and Europe is reverting to type. To be sure, some Europeans are shocked by the re-emergence of Jew-hatred all over their con

[TheMojoPin]

Was there anyone insane enough to actually doubt that Europe is fiercely anti-semetic?

"Who wants to taste my SPIN!??! Taste it, TASTE IT...taste it and LIKE IT, you little shits..."

<img src=http://www.wkmi.com/OReilly,Bill.jpg>

If those awful incidents make ALL of Europe anti-semitic, then isn't it safe to say ALL of America is anti-semitic, or ALL of the world? Your sweeping condemnations are just absolutely spectacular. Is there anyone you HAVEN'T written off yet? And if you feel the need to just write off entire landmasses, what do you suggest be done about it? Anti-semitism can't just be blamed on Arabs...it's been deeply rooted there for a good 2,000 years now. The Holocaust itself is good enough evidence that white people do a pretty darn good job of murdering Jews. So does Europe now fall under the "exterminate them all" category?

I'm not discounting HK's list of events above...each is horrible and unforgiveable, but they're being used to essentially say "all of Europe is hopelessly anti-semitic." I don't understand what good that implication is. Are we supposed to "ignore" all of Europe because there's a bunch of anti-semitic assholes dwelling over there? America is clearly still far too full of racist assholes who hate pretty much anyone you could possibly bring up, yet I'm not about to just "give up" on America, and I wouldn't expect the rest of the world to, either.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-6-03 @ 12:57 PM

[ADF]

I find it deeply disturbing that no one knows how to spell "Semitism." Technically, it should also be capitalized, but I won't get that picky.

I hate the Dallas Cowboys and am a little bit of an Anti-Emmitt, but that's less so now that he plays for the Cardinals.

<center><img src = http://images.nfl.com/photos/news/img5843693.jpg title = "tweet, tweet!">

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Can't we all just get a lawn?</center>

[Meatball]

mojo - nowhere does is imply in horde kings post that all europeans are anti-semetic. Your overreacting - what that list and post is saying is:
That many europeans today are anti-semetic incredibly when there are so few jews living in europe. How can a people hate people that are scattered in tiny numbers?
Yet the fact that so many (disporportionate) incidents occur shows the "unspoken" undercurrent of hatred towards jews that foster there. I dont think that Europe is unique in this regard, its just that the new "higher moral europe" a "beacon of tolerance and light" to the world cant rid itself of its most basic hatred.

<IMG SRC="http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/meatball1.jpg">

[TheMojoPin]

Man, I was confused on that (The correct spelling of anti-semitic). I was capitalizing it at first, but then nobody else was, so I felt like an idiot. Not that I'm NOT an idiot anyways...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-6-03 @ 2:06 PM

[TooCute]

Mojo - nowhere does is imply in horde kings post that all europeans are anti-semetic.

No? He wrote:

Was there anyone insane enough to actually doubt that Europe is fiercely anti-semetic?


HK, what is your point? Why are you so worried about the way "Europe" treats Jews? What about how the "US" treats Jews? What about hate crimes against other minorities?

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[The Jays]

Why are you so worried about the way "Europe" treats Jews?


Iraq and the palestinians


<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> Fuck what you heard.</font>
<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> That cab has a dent in it.</font> [center]
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[FiveB247]

Sorry bout that mispelled 'chuckle', too cute.

HK, you can roll off hundreds of instances from any country or region where injustices or crimes have been committed to a particular group....but it doesn't make it the overall thought or belief.

And in regards to people dancing in the street after 9-11 occured. Do you think the Iraqi people or Middle Easterns won't feel or view it in the same respect when we win the War in Iraq and US citizens celebrate and have patriotic parades? It's the same notion at opposite sides of a spectrum.

[TheMojoPin]

Why are you so worried about the way "Europe" treats Jews?

Quote:
Iraq and the palestinians

Oh, LORDY.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-7-03 @ 12:34 AM

[HordeKing1]

I did not say that everyone in the entire European continent hates Jews. I said that Europe is rife with anti-semitism. To ignore or deny it, truly is insane.

Fact is that there are more anti-semetic acts all around the world (including the US) than since WWII.

And while hate crimes are committed against every minority group, they have never been as universal as those committed against the Jews.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[silera]

And while hate crimes are committed against every minority group, they have never been as universal as those committed against the Jews.

Since hate crimes against Jews are universal, why title this thread "Iraq and the Palestinians"?

I think hate crimes are universal, regardless of who they're directed at. I don't think that it's prudent to get into a debate about who's hated more around the world.



<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[TooCute]

To ignore or deny it, truly is insane.

Who is doing that? I don't think anyone has EVER asserted that anti-Semitism doesn't exist.

And on the issue of ignoring: does it make me insane if I'm not actively out there protesting hate crimes against European Jews? Or if I'm not actively out there killing all Arabs?

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This message was edited by TooCute on 4-7-03 @ 9:54 AM

[TooCute]

Fact is that there are more anti-semetic acts all around the world (including the US) than since WWII.

And while hate crimes are committed against every minority group, they have never been as universal as those committed against the Jews.

This may well be true; certainly I'm in no place to comment on the historical levels of hate-crimes committed against Jews or any other minority. Nor can I necssarily comment on relative world-wide levels. But concerning the US (which I guess doesn't matter in this case since we're apparently talking about Iraq an the palestinians...)

In 1996, 4,831 out of the 7,947 such crimes <this comes from an article on hate crimes - TC> reported to the FBI, or 60%, were promulgated because of race, with close to two-thirds (62%) targeting African Americans. Furthermore, the type of crime committed against this group has not changed much since the 19th century; it still includes bombing and vandalizing churches, burning crosses on home lawns, and murder.

Among the other racially motivated crimes, about 25% were committed against white people, 7% against Asian Pacific Americans, slightly less than 5% against multiracial groups, and 1% against Native Americans and Alaskan Natives.

People from Latin America are increasingly targets of bias-motivated crimes. Of 814 hate crimes in 1995 motivated by bias based on ethnicity or national origin, the FBI found that 63.3% (or 516) were directed against Hispanics, often because of their immigration status.

According to the National Asian Pacific American Legal Consortium, 461 anti-Asian incidents were reported in 1995, 2% more than in 1994 and 38% more than in 1993. Moreover, the violence of the incidents increased dramatically; aggravated assaults rose by 14%, and two murders and one firebombing took place.

Most religiously motivated hate crimes are acts of vandalism, although personal attacks are not uncommon. The overwhelming majority (82% in 1996) are directed against Jews, states the FBI. The 781 acts of vandalism that year represent a 7% increase from 1995. However, acts of harassment, threat, or assault went down by 15%, to 941, from a total of 1,116, a decline that the Anti-Defamation League attributes to stronger enforcement of the law and heightened educational outreach.

Except for crimes against homosexuals, the federal Hate Crimes Statistics Act does not collect data on gender. However, a recent national survey found that 7.2 of every 1,000 women each year are victims of rape.

If you consider the past 200 years history, then historically there have been far more (in absolute numbers) hate crimes committed against blacks than against Jews in the US. Also, physical attacks are apparently declining, though vandalism is increasing. Interestingly, physical attacks on other minorities such as asian-americans, muslims and arabs are increasing.

Keep in mind, of course, that these statistics deal only with reported hate-crimes. I find it hard to believe that if all crimes were reported the relative magnitudes and trends in these numbers would change significantly, however. Also, obviously these numbers are absolute numbers; there are only around 5.2 million Jews in America while there are around 13 million blacks.

By no means do I suggest that anti-Semitism doesn't exist, but I more just wanted to point out that what we all should really be upset about are hate-crimes, period. Not hate-crimes against Jews only.


ps info comes from: http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/hate/
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This message was edited by TooCute on 4-7-03 @ 10:18 AM

[FiveB247]

Too Cute...obviously you're passing off anti-semitism by focusing on other groups that have had problems as well. Therefore you're anti-semitic. haha

[Bestinshow]

Do you people need a road map, or do you just want to stick to your opinion no matter
what the facts say? Do you not see the connection between Iraq and palestine? The underlying friction between us and all of the Arab nations is our alliance with Israel. The majority of the Arabic religious groups despise the Jews and want them exterminated. They therefore want us exterminated for not letting them exterminate Israel. Because of the growing anti-semitism in Europe that you people insist on denying, it has resulted in an anti-US:anti Israel stand. You all want to know why Eurpoe hates us. Well Horde King explained it to you . WW2 was only 60 years ago. The scary thing is people talked like you then also. I guess when you are in denial, you don`t have to face the facts.
Iraq wasn`t chosen because they are alone in their hatred for us. They were the one that our intelligence felt most threatened by at this moment. I`ll take my chances with the opinions of our military intelligence over the NY Times. But obviously thats just my warped opinion.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[HordeKing1]

Too Cute, you're looking at pure numbers. The figures change when you look at the hate attacks as compared to the percentage of the population.

The connection b/w "palestinians" who live to hate and kill Jews and Iraquis (who the "palestinians" are fighting for - against the US) is painfully obvious.

So too is the connection b/w the poisoning of the Arab Muslim culture in their indoctrination of hatred and the heavily growing Muslim population in such countires as France

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[TooCute]

Bestinshow, what are you talking about?

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[TooCute]

Too Cute, you're looking at pure numbers. The figures change when you look at the hate attacks as compared to the percentage of the population.


I very clearly stated that that was what I was doing. You miss the point of my post. Hate crimes, exist. Period. Hate crimes against Jews are not inherently 'worse' or 'more offensive' than hate crimes against blacks or other minorities.

The connection b/w "palestinians" who live to hate and kill Jews and Iraquis (who the "palestinians" are fighting for - against the US) is painfully obvious.

So what?

I don't know all palestinians so I don't know if they all only live to hate and kill Jews. But even assuming that they do, nobody is denying the link.

So too is the connection b/w the poisoning of the Arab Muslim culture in their indoctrination of hatred and the heavily growing Muslim population in such countires as France.

Perhaps this is true. But again, not all Arab Muslims commit violent acts against Jews, nor are Arab Muslims the only ones committing these acts.


Do you honestly think, as you have advocated, that complete extermination of ALL palestinians and/or arab muslims is possible? Even if it were, would it stop all hate-crimes against Jews?

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This message was edited by TooCute on 4-7-03 @ 1:37 PM

[Bestinshow]

Too cute, what don`t you understand? You ask of the signficance of antisemiticism in Europe to Palestine and Iraq. And I am trying to tell you, it is the reason for their antiamerican feelings over this war. What do other prejudices have to do with antisemiticsm
and their effect on this war?

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

This message was edited by Bestinshow on 4-7-03 @ 1:40 PM

[TooCute]

Since hate crimes against Jews are universal, why title this thread "Iraq and the Palestinians"?

Ahem. Silera. You KNOW you can't capitalize 'palestinians'. They're not real!

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[TooCute]

Too cute, what don`t you understand? You ask of the signficance of antisemiticism in Europe to Palestine and Iraq.

I did?

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This message was edited by TooCute on 4-7-03 @ 1:41 PM

[Bestinshow]

Then I don`t understand your point. Because there are other hate crimes does that lesson these? Or are we not allowed to discuss these without discussing all other hate crimes. I thought the discussion had to do with Palestine and Iraq and there is a direct link with antisemiticism and these wars. I fail to see the connection with hate crimes over Black, Hispanic and Asians and these wars.
What are you talking about?

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[silera]

And I am trying to tell you, it is the reason for [European's] antiamerican feelings over this war.

Condensing the anti war movement to be simply based on anti-semitism is incorrect. Most countries and people against the war because of the precedent it sets for arbitrary designation of a war as "preemptive" without provocation, or global consensus for it.

While there are some that may be against the war for very specific reasons such as Anti Semitist or Anti American sentiment, you cannot deny that if you are a citizen of any country other than the US, you would be concerned about the future of your country's autonomy hinging on whether or not the US deemed it as a threat.


<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[Bestinshow]

Too Cute...obviously you're passing off anti-semitism by focusing on other groups that have had problems as well. Therefore you're anti-semitic. haha
I missed the part in the message board FAQ that we can`t discuss antisemitism without bring up other hate crimes.


<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

This message was edited by Bestinshow on 4-7-03 @ 1:57 PM

[TooCute]

Then I don`t understand your point. Because there are other hate crimes does that lesson these? Or are we not allowed to discuss these without discussing all other hate crimes.

I never said either of these things.

I thought the discussion had to do with Palestine and Iraq and there is a direct link with antisemiticism and these wars.

I thought so, as well. I'm not sure why the anti-Semitism of the entire world entered into it in this thread.

I fail to see the connection with hate crimes over Black, Hispanic and Asians and these wars.
What are you talking about?

I wasn't suggesting a link. I was simply trying express my opinion - in response to HK's rant about hate-crimes committed around the world against Jews, and his assertion that Jews are more hated than any other minority - that all hate-crimes ar equally bad, and that it does nobody any good to assert that Jews are more "universally" detested than any other minority group.


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[Bestinshow]

Condensing the anti war movement to be simply based on anti-semitism is incorrect. Most countries and people against the war because of the precedent it sets for arbitrary designation of a war as "preemptive" without provocation, or global consensus for it.
I disagree. While I agree that there are other reasons besides antisemiticism most of them are political. I feel the relative silence of these "antiwar" governments is indicative of their secretive acknowledgement that this regime was dangerous and while they publicly wont admit it, they welcome regime change. While there are protests in the street, notice outside of a few Arab countries you see no public condemnations of the war. I merely am agreeing with HK that antisemitism is a contributing factor.
While there are some that may be against the war for very specific reasons such as Anti Semitist or Anti American sentiment, you cannot deny that if you are a citizen of any country other than the US, you would be concerned about the future of your country's autonomy hinging on whether or not the US deemed it as a threat.

Lets not go overboard. We are not picking coutries to attack on a dart board. Even the Arabs admit this was a lowlife regime.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[Bestinshow]

Too Cute, maybe I am putting words in other peoples mouths but in recent discussions the antiAmerican feelings in Europe have come up as a result of this war. I and other people have stated that the antisemiticm in Europe have contributed to that. I believe the NY Times has also alluded to this. I believe HK was just trying to prove that point because other people have previously disputed it. If that was not his point, than I apoligize.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>



This message was edited by Bestinshow on 4-7-03 @ 2:27 PM

[TooCute]

I disagree. While I agree that there are other reasons besides antisemiticism most of them are political.

Forgive me, but wasn't the reason that Silera stated a political reason?


We are not picking coutries to attack on a dart board. Even the Arabs admit this was a lowlife regime.

Starting to get kind of off topic and redundant here, but... why gives us the authority to attack lowlife regimes in the first place? Because it is "preemptive"?

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This message was edited by TooCute on 4-7-03 @ 2:22 PM

[silera]

Lets not go overboard. We are not picking coutries to attack on a dart board. Even the Arabs admit this was a lowlife regime.


No, we're picking them out on a map, and applying criteria arbitrarily.


<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[Bestinshow]

Forgive me, but wasn't the reason that Silera stated a political reason?
I disagree that the main reason for disagreement is "preemption without provocation" While I agree that there are other political reasons, eg. financial dealings, social pressures etc. I don`t think provocation is the main issue. If Sadaam was not a threat as you claim, the UN wouldn`t have been choking Iraq financially all these years.
Starting to get kind of off topic and redundant here, but... why gives us the authority to attack lowlife regimes in the first place? Because it is "preemptive"?

9/11 gave us the authority. Nobody said this was a war against Al Queda. This is a war against terrorism. Like it or not, unless you want another attack that makes 9/11 look like
a party, all attacks will be preemptive. Don`t you wish we made one in September 2000?No, we're picking them out on a map, and applying criteria arbitrarily.

Honestly, do you really consider the choice of Sadaam Hussein arbitrary?

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[Bestinshow]

Starting to get kind of off topic and redundant here
I think we are all overly guilty of that crime.

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[silera]

I disagree that the main reason for disagreement is "preemption without provocation" While I agree that there are other political reasons, eg. financial dealings, social pressures etc. I don`t think provocation is the main issue. If Sadaam was not a threat as you claim, the UN wouldn`t have been choking Iraq financially all these years.

I didn't claim that Sadaam was not a threat.

I stated that the root cause of the lack of international approval for this war was because it set a dangerous precedent. One that other countries, not as strong militarily as the US, do not feel comfortable with. The fact that we entered Iraq without a direct assault on their part towards the United States, and without the sanction of the United Nations.

Whether or not you agree with it, the United States cannot bully and buy its way into war. If we do it, so can others. Others with much more compelling reasons for preemptive action against countries.

Our actions in this war have undermined the power of the United Nations, and compromised the future of peaceful negotiation and disarmament in the future.




<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[FiveB247]

stated that the root cause of the lack of international approval for this war was because it set a dangerous precedent. One that other countries, not as strong militarily as the US, do not feel comfortable with. The fact that we entered Iraq without a direct assault on their part towards the United States, and without the sanction of the United Nations.

Whether or not you agree with it, the United States cannot bully and buy its way into war. If we do it, so can others. Others with much more compelling reasons for preemptive action against countries.

Our actions in this war have undermined the power of the United Nations, and compromised the future of peaceful negotiation and disarmament in the future.

I couldn't agree more with you Silera. Why would any nation bother to listen to the UN ,when a Security Council Member ignores the UN and international laws to achieve its own interests. The US wants to use the 'might makes right' notion and it won't hold.

Iraq invaded Kuwait for their national interest. It violated international law. So we had the Gulf war to free Kuwait. Nowadays the US goes to war against Iraq for their national interests (even if it's just in their beliefs). Same broken laws but for different reasons. With actions such as these, we can never, ever expect a serious stability or peace in the world. Every nation will act for itself only whether for just reasons or not. War doesn't create peace and stability isn't gained from instability. It's irrational to think you can achieve such things from following the opposite actions.

[Bestinshow]

Our actions in this war have undermined the power of the United Nations, and compromised the future of peaceful negotiation and disarmament in the future
The UN has no power. It has proven time and time again to be irrelevant. This is an organization that has Libya in charge of human rights.
Whether or not you agree with it, the United States cannot bully and buy its way into war. If we do it, so can others. Others with much more compelling reasons for preemptive action against countries.

We did not bully or buy our way into this war. We were dragged in. Like it or not, you can deny it all you want, the Islamic fundamentalists have declared war on us. And that does not include just Al Queda. I leave my trust and faith in army intelligence to determine who else is part of that movement. And I don`t know about you, I don`t want us to get hit again. You can pick your source of information for national threat. I`ll pick mine.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>


This message was edited by Bestinshow on 4-7-03 @ 3:25 PM

[Bestinshow]

Five, it doesn`t surprise me that you fail to mention that Iraq ignored the UN resolutions.
You kind of choose to interpret the facts the way you want to.
War doesn't create peace and stability isn't gained from instability. It's irrational to think you can achieve such things from following the opposite actions.
Funny, in all your threads you don`t seem to feel that way about the Palestinians. I kinda see a double standard here.
Nowadays the US goes to war against Iraq for their national interests (even if it's just in their beliefs).
National interests? Is that what you call
national security? Just in our beliefs? who decides when we are in danger? The NY times,
CNN. It is the responsibility of our military and our intelligence to evaluate national danger. What is your source that disputes them? Your opinion? I`d like to see something more substantial when our security is on the line.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[whoopsy]

Best in Show - I know you're "leaving it up to the government" to determine who's a threat to national security, but how about at least taking some initiative to run a spell check over your posts.

Silera - I thought your last post was right on

UN - As the world's last superpower, it's up to the US to give credence to the UN. When we are the lone nation to walk on the Kyoto Treaty and invade countries without UN support, we trivialize its existence. You (Bestinshow) complain that the UN is powerless, but this power can only come when a country such as the US works within the system and accepts decisions it doesn't particularly agree with.

Horde King - There is no doubt that anti-Semitism is everywhere, but people these days are way to quick to hit the "anti-Semite" button. Give me a break. You disagree with the war, and you're a "Jew hater". European governments disagree with the war, so they must be anti-Semitic too. Is it possible to simply disagree with the war or the Israeli position without all the name calling.

[FiveB247]

Five, it doesn`t surprise me that you fail to mention that Iraq ignored the UN resolutions. You kind of choose to interpret the facts the way you want to. You so easily want to hold Iraq accountable to the UN but fail to mention when the US ignored the UN by invasion and broke UN laws as well.

Funny, in all your threads you don`t seem to feel that way about the Palestinians. I kinda see a double standard here. That is a retarded remark. I don't support bombings, I support a two state peace process. Big difference. I support peaceful, diplomatic resolution to conflicts by all parties. Not all Palestinians are terrorists like you want to make them out to be.

National interests? Is that what you call
national security? Just in our beliefs? who decides when we are in danger? The NY times,
CNN. It is the responsibility of our military and our intelligence to evaluate national danger. What is your source that disputes them? Your opinion? I`d like to see something more substantial when our security is on the line.
No, national interest is what our government calls justification for these actions. Maybe you should go back and read some of the speeches our officials gave in building up to the war.

You can talk all you like about trusting intelligence, government, etc...but was that the same intelligence and government officials that failed to protect some of its citizens from 9-11? You can attempt to look to the government for safety, information and honesty...but they can't guarantee any of them completely. You can try to see government as good guys when in times of war, but in fact, they are all the lying politicians we all know them for, all of the time. You're just kidding yourself and hoping they can do the things you ask of them. Without holding the people who make decisions responsible for their actions, you're only ignoring the problems and going along with the fallacy of their interest in you.

[TheMojoPin]

I thought so, as well. I'm not sure why the anti-Semitism of the entire world entered into it in this thread.

Because it's being used as a tool. The actions of Palestinian terrorists would be scummy, no matter WHO they would be blowing up (And NOBODY has been denying to the connection between Saddam and Palestinian terrorists...even though it was basically the ONLY proven terrorist/Saddam connection that Bush WOULDN'T address!), yet the "nudge-nudge" notion of these posts are seemingly somehow trying to make these terrorist actions and Saddam seem "worse" because they're essentially anti-Semitic. As for the tangent into European anti-Semitism, you've got me there. HK seems to think that modern European anti-Semitism is solely the fauly of Arab immigrants, while ignoring the fact that many Europeans have been very openly anti-Semitic for thousands of years now. WW2 didn't "fix" Europe's anti-Smeitism...it only caught one group of them, the Nazis. What, you think that everyone else learned the error of the retarded ways just because some German Jew-hating bastards were caught? It never "went away"...it just paled so obviously in comparison to the singular horror of the Holocaust...

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[TheMojoPin]

9/11 gave us the authority. Nobody said this was a war against Al Queda. This is a war against terrorism. Like it or not, unless you want another attack that makes 9/11 look like
a party, all attacks will be preemptive. Don`t you wish we made one in September 2000?

Against Iraq? What the hell would that have accomplished? People honestly think that invading Iraq BEFORE 9/11 would have prevented it?

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[TheMojoPin]

I didn't claim that Sadaam was not a threat.

None of us really have.

I think it's very clear he's a threat to his region, and especially Israel. Yet our government's reasoning is very clear that somehow he's a threat to US, and apparently more of a threat NOW than he's ever been in all the time he's been in power...wha-?

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[TheMojoPin]

Like it or not, you can deny it all you want, the Islamic fundamentalists have declared war on us. And that does not include just Al Queda.

But Saddam and his regime are NOT Islamic fundamentalists. His rule has been a very, VERY secular one, in sharp, sharp contrast to practically all of the other nations. That's one of the main reasons Islamic extremists hate HIM only a little bit less than they hate us.

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[high fly]

But Saddam and his regime are NOT fundamentalists

But he probably knows some, or at least has heard of them, so that's why we need to whack him. Isn't that their argument?
If you're gonna go after a country that has supported terrorists, Iran should be waaaay above Iraq on the list.
But then, that might bring attention to the issue of Republican icon Ronald Reagan paying ransom to kidnappers and murderers of Americans. Those arms helped the Iranians at the battle at Faw, which helped them cut off oil revenue for Iraq when it was broke and needed money for it's war.
So Reagan pissed off both sides of the war, even though he was helping both of them.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

The Iranians have willingly killed far more CIA agents and US Marines than Iraq could ever hope to. I'm talking straight up murder here. They were bombing American embassies, Marine barracks, and murdering CIA agents when Saddam was still our stone-cold homie. Feh.

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[high fly]

Oh yeah, I meant to add about Reagan:
"AND THEN HE LIED LIKE HELL TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ABOUT IT!"

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Bestinshow]

Best in Show - I know you're "leaving it up to the government" to determine who's a threat to national security, but how about at least taking some initiative to run a spell check over your posts.

I think we are being a little assanine(I hope I spelled that correctly) but I see where we are coming from. I guess you see very few typos on these message boards. I guess because I am conservative I can`t quite be as much of a genius as you. You seem to be an authority on everything. I am curious where you see this rash of typos on my part but I guess we will get to your points.
First, how do you decide who is a threat to national security? Is it the same source that makes you such a great speller or do you just have inherent knowledge of such things. Because obviously the way you scoffed at my statement, you must have a much more superior source than military intelligence.
Doy, how stupid of me. You are so smart.
UN - As the world's last superpower, it's up to the US to give credence to the UN. When we are the lone nation to walk on the Kyoto Treaty and invade countries without UN support, we trivialize its existence. You (Bestinshow) complain that the UN is powerless, but this power can only come when a country such as the US works within the system and accepts decisions it doesn't particularly agree with.

Again, this doesn`t surprise me at all. We have to give credence to the UN. I guess we should blindly follow the UN, regardless of their view. After all, France, Germany, Russia, Syria, Lebanon all have flawless politics. You are right, it should be up to them to decide what political moves we make because I know those nice governments only have our best interests at heart. I think we should dissolve our government and let the Un run our country. After all, what do we know. This is a terrible, bullying, immoral, unstable, war monger of a government. Thats why our standard of living is so poor and we just gut all those poor little countries. I think we should let Shirac and Shroeder divide it up between them. I can`t wait to hear what you say when the lab results come back about the weapons the UN said they didn`t have.
There is no doubt that anti-Semitism is everywhere, but people these days are way to quick to hit the "anti-Semite" button. Give me a break. You disagree with the war, and you're a "Jew hater". European governments disagree with the war, so they must be anti-Semitic too. Is it possible to simply disagree with the war or the Israeli position without all the name calling.

Oh thank god. Antisemitism is on a big down swing. I am so glad I read your post. Antisemitism has nothing to do with the friction in the world now. I see. The palestinian conflict has nothing to do with antisemiticm.
And the Arab hatred for Israel has nothing to do with antisemiticsm. And the well documented rise of Islamic Fundamentalists
in Europe has no effect on antisemiticsm. You don`t question and disagree. You know for a fact that this isn`t true. Even though this phenomenon has been documented in sources on the left and right. But you choose not to believe it so now its not true. Funny, the US and England have been refered to as Zionist for our role in defending Israel but of course, antisemiticsm has nothing to do with this. I am confused. After all, I can`t even spell.
You`re smart, you will explain it to me.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[Bestinshow]

Against Iraq? What the hell would that have accomplished? People honestly think that invading Iraq BEFORE 9/11 would have prevented it?
I was saying too bad we didn`t have enough information to have a preemptive strike against Al Queda. I was discussing the justification of a preemptive strike and that is a perfect example.
None of us really have.

I think it's very clear he's a threat to his region, and especially Israel. Yet our government's reasoning is very clear that somehow he's a threat to US, and apparently more of a threat NOW than he's ever been in all the time he's been in power...wha-?


This is a point you and I strongly disagree on. While Iraq might not have been a threat to us in conventional warfare this is not the fear. This was an unstable government with severe hatred to us. They trained terrorists. They financed Jihad strikes. While other countries are also threats few were as hostile toward us as Hussein. The key was to head him off before he got more dangerous. Our intelligence felt he was prime to perform his own terrorism or assist in others. I can`t think of more of an authority on the subject. Despite being secular, Iraq did have dealings with other terrorist organizations. We know they financed the Palestinians.The Palestinians announced they backed Iraq. Syria was assisting Iraq. They had hatred for us in common with those countries. that is all they needed. He was every bit the threat to us as his region. He hates us more.
But Saddam and his regime are NOT Islamic fundamentalists. His rule has been a very, VERY secular one, in sharp, sharp contrast to practically all of the other nations. That's one of the main reasons Islamic extremists hate HIM only a little bit less than they hate us.
Don`t kid youself. They hate him alot less. He does have dealings with the other countries as I mentioned and we are a common enemy.
Fundamentalist groups would definetly buy that shit from him to kill us. Why wouldn`t they?

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[TooCute]

assanine(I hope I spelled that correctly)

You didn't hope hard enough!

Asinine :)

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!! 2% !!<font color=white>

[Bestinshow]

You didn't hope hard enough!

Asinine



I had a feeling. I was so far off that spell check wouldn`t even help me! Thanks too cute.

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[whoopsy]

Show - Yeah, maybe it was bad form to crack on your spelling, but if you're going to come off as an authority, I figured you should at least know how to spell "Al Qaeda" and "Chirac", I mean, they're only mentioned in any freaking article you look at nowadays. (I guess if Rush or Sean Hannity were closed captioned, you'd be all set)

I'm not looking for the UN to run out country - but I think it's foolish to think we're not going to need some world authority moving on (say to help handle North Korea). You said the UN is weak, I say you're right, but we're a big part of that problem.

I really couldn't even understand the rest of your post, but I don't know, it sounded a bit sarcastic. Especially the anti-Semitic kick, I think you totally missed my point which was "Yes, there is a lot of anti-Semitism in Europe, here too, but guys like Horde King are too quick to apply that label. Not everyone that disagrees with the war, or the Palestinian issue, for that matter, does so because of anti-Semitism"

[NewYorkDragons80]

I say that something smells awfully Vichy around here.
I have to give props to Hordeking for that one.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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[NewYorkDragons80]

But Saddam and his regime are NOT Islamic fundamentalists. His rule has been a very, VERY secular one, in sharp, sharp contrast to practically all of the other nations. That's one of the main reasons Islamic extremists hate HIM only a little bit less than they hate us.
In the tapes that bin Laden released in January, he called for Muslims to fight alongside the "socialists" (Secularist Iraq) against the United States. In addition, I don't think it is too far-fetched that bin Laden has sided or would side with Saddam in a fight against the US despite the fact that they stand at odds ideologically. I understand that there is much they disagree on, but when their common enemy is the world's sole superpower, it is not inconceivable that they joined forces. I guess we will have to agree to disagree when it comes to that.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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[Bestinshow]

Not all Palestinians are terrorists like you want to make them out to be.
No, but a significant amount are. Two state peace process? Don`t you think the homicide bombings need to stop first? Or do you think they are justified? Did you think we should have used diplomacy with Al Queda? I am curious, would you negotiate with an organization if they were blowing up buses in another country? I can`t believe you consider Palestine a victim here. If the murders stop. I agree, than Israel should talk but I believe they would.
You can attempt to look to the government for safety, information and honesty...but they can't guarantee any of them completely. You can try to see government as good guys when in times of war, but in fact, they are all the lying politicians we all know them for, all of the time. You're just kidding yourself and hoping they can do the things you ask of them.

And who do you rely on? How are you such an authority on what is and isn`t? I would love to hear your source that disputes the findings of our intelligence.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[Bestinshow]

Show - Yeah, maybe it was bad form to crack on your spelling, but if you're going to come off as an authority, I figured you should at least know how to spell "Al Qaeda" and "Chirac", I mean, they're only mentioned in any freaking article you look at nowadays. (I guess if Rush or Sean Hannity were closed captioned, you'd be all set)

Oh, thank you professor Whoopsy. I don`t think I would be going out too much on a limb if thought you were a liberal, would I? Gee, I don`t know how I draw that conclusion. Maybe its because you are an arrogant know it all who thinks they are superior and looks down at anything conservative. Well you go watch your CNN. I guess I can`t approach the genius of your liberal sources. Maybe we can get you some Peter Arnett bits.
I'm not looking for the UN to run out country - but I think it's foolish to think we're not going to need some world authority moving on (say to help handle North Korea). You said the UN is weak, I say you're right, but we're a big part of that problem.
And how do you figure that? We do have international backing but not all of the permanent members of the security council. How about the Eastern block nations? Italy? Spain? Australia? The UK? Why do we have to be governed by an institution that is dominated by Socialist and Arab countries that don`t have our best interest at heart? Did it ever cross your mind that maybe they are wrong? By the way, did you bitch this much when Clinton went against the UN for the war in Bosnia? I think I know the answer. We will stay off that subject. The answer to a relevant
UN is not to succumb to their politics. I have more faith in our government than any of the others on the security council.
I really couldn't even understand the rest of your post, but I don't know, it sounded a bit sarcastic. Especially the anti-Semitic kick, I think you totally missed my point which was "Yes, there is a lot of anti-Semitism in Europe, here too, but guys like Horde King are too quick to apply that label.

HK wasn`t quick to apply the label. Just because there are other reasons doesn`t mean that antisemiticism is not related. It is very much a relevant issue and several on the board appeared skeptical to its existence. HK was merely backing that part of the argument by showing that unfortunately antisemiticm is still alive and well in Europe. For some reason, whenever somebody brings up that angle on the board, they get attacked. You have to be blind not to see the antisemetic contribution to the friction and its effect on the war and antiamerican feelings. The whole thing started from antisemetic feelings among the Arab nations.. But I guess you are going to say that I am labeling them. You go ask the Arab nations how they feel living with Jews.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[FiveB247]

No, but a significant amount are. Two state peace process? Don`t you think the homicide bombings need to stop first? Or do you think they are justified? Did you think we should have used diplomacy with Al Queda? I am curious, would you negotiate with an organization if they were blowing up buses in another country? I can`t believe you consider Palestine a victim here. If the murders stop. I agree, than Israel should talk but I believe they would.

It's a minority of fundamentalists causing the bombings and the problems. One side is not more justified then the other. At this point in time, it's going back and forth, tit for tat. And nothing will be gained by waiting for bombings to stop or for Israel to conitnue growth of settlements as well as their military excursions into Palestinian areas. They will go back and forth and never solve a thing. I never said Palestine was a victim; I said a clear majority of their people are not terrorists..something you claim untrue. And you can not compare a group like Al Quada to this situation. They are a cell based, underground terror group. Not a country or a more accesible group.

If you honestly want to link 9-11, the war on terrorism and Iraq, the US would be attacking Syria, Iran, Lebonon, Saudi Arabia, India, Pakistan, many of the former Russian providences which contain nuclear weapons and house terrorists, most of Indonesia and the surrounding South Asian fundamentalists, many South and Central American nations, Mexico who fight the with the Zapatistas, as well as others I forgot to include. Let's see how that all unfolds...eh?

[HBox]

In the tapes that bin Laden released in January, he called for Muslims to fight alongside the "socialists" (Secularist Iraq) against the United States.


And in the tape he released right before the war, he made sure to mention that he wanted the people of Iraq to not only defeat us, but to also defeat Saddam.

[TheMojoPin]

Stupid misquotes...

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[silera]

I was saying too bad we didn`t have enough information to have a preemptive strike against Al Queda. I was discussing the justification of a preemptive strike and that is a perfect example.

Had we known about Al Queda's plans for 9-11, we would have arrested the persons responsible for the plans and stepped up security around the WTC and the Pentagon. Our preemptive measures wouldn't have involved entering Afghanistan and taking over their country.

Would it have worked? I don't know that. Too many tangibles. I do know that 9-11 occurred because we weren't expecting it, and they relied on that to hijack 4 planes and use non conventional attack methods.

I expected many changes to the airline industry, the customs service, and immigration reform since that happened. Instead of a concentrated effort to protect people, I'm seeing heavy handed abuses of our constitution through the patriot act, the secretly jailed suspects linked to terror, and now this war.

I want to know why we're spending 100 billion dollars on a war halfway around the world, when not every person is checked at an airport, when customs only inspects 2% of all incoming shipments. What happened to the air marshalls on every plane? States and localities are still squabbling over the homeland defense grants, and no clear concise course of action has been agreed upon as far as I am aware. I may be wrong.

I can sit in my house, with a family member at each window and securing the perimeter armed with an assault rifle prepared for an intruder. Once I walk off my property, and go find someone that might intend to come onto my property and shoot him, my actions have crossed the line.


<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[silera]

Oh, thank you professor Whoopsy. I don`t think I would be going out too much on a limb if thought you were a liberal, would I? Gee, I don`t know how I draw that conclusion. Maybe its because you are an arrogant know it all who thinks they are superior and looks down at anything conservative. Well you go watch your CNN. I guess I can`t approach the genius of your liberal sources. Maybe we can get you some Peter Arnett bits.

These comments are uncalled for and do not lend credibility to your argument.

Let's talk facts, opinions, and perceptions. What someone's political affiliations are have nothing to do with their intelligence level or ability to engage in a debate.

All the "you're a liberal/republican/conservative/democrat" therefore "you're stupid/biased/opinions don't count" arguments are stupid.

Grow the fuck up. Form an intelligent opinion. Accept that people think differently from you and may have valid reasons to do so.




<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[Bestinshow]

Grow the fuck up. Form an intelligent opinion. Accept that people think differently from you and may have valid reasons to do so.


maybe you should take some of your own advice or is this another one of your classy posts. To say things in language you understand, mind your Fucking business. With all the disagreements I have had with you, have I ever made these statements to you?
You are obviously not familiar with the stereo typical person I am talking about and lets see from Whoopsy if I am right.

All the "you're a liberal/republican/conservative/democrat" therefore "you're stupid/biased/opinions don't count" arguments are stupid.

What you don`t understand because you don`t read between the lines is this is what she was inferring. She was calling me stupid. I was being sarcastic. My anger is because I am tired of the same thing. You ask Whoopsy how he or she feels about conservatives. but you didn`t seem to mind her obnoxious remarks about spell check and conservative radio. I treat you with respect despite the tone you respond to my posts but I guess you think you have it like that.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

This message was edited by Bestinshow on 4-8-03 @ 11:38 AM

[Bestinshow]

Accept that people think differently from you and may have valid reasons to do so.

By the way, having your own opinion doesn`t mean I have to agree with you. This might come as a shock but I am entitled to my opinion also. I never scoffed at your opinions. I only corrected you about your information about Turkey which by the way, was not an opinion.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[silera]

The fact is, what whoopsy thinks of conservative radio has about as much to do with this discussion as the price of tea in china.

It's a moot point.

If you were being sarcastic when you called me classy, I'd rather be an honest bitch than a stupid pussy. We come from different places. Where I'm from, you say what you feel and how you feel it, and if you can back it up, you do "have it like that."

<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

This message was edited by silera on 4-8-03 @ 12:43 PM

[silera]

By the way, having your own opinion doesn`t mean I have to agree with you. This might come as a shock but I am entitled to my opinion also. I never scoffed at your opinions. I only corrected you about your information about Turkey which by the way, was not an opinion.

I don't expect you to agree with me.

I have the ability to practice what I preach.



<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[Bestinshow]

The fact is, what whoopsy thinks of conservative radio have about as much to do with this discussion as the price of tea in china.

No, but what she thinks of conservatives, which I stated I was, does. I don`t know if you have noticed, but I haven`t done that rant with other people on the board.
If you were being sarcastic when you called me classy, I'd rather be an honest bitch than a stupid pussy.
Oh, you can be honest and say what you feel, but when someone obviously is breaking my balls, I am not allowed to do the same. Maybe thats because we come from different places which by the way, sounds like a generalization to me. And by the way, I do have my reasons for my conclusions which I don`t have to explain to you.
Where I'm from, you say what you feel and how you feel it, and if you can back it up, you do "have it like that."
Once again, sounds like you have different rights than me. And what are you backing up?
That you can say Fuck on the message board?
Or that you are intentionally insulting? I don`t need to back either of those up.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[Bestinshow]

I don't expect you to agree with me.

I have the ability to practice what I preach.



And I can`t?

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[Uncle Smokey]

Does anyone besides me note the irony implicit in the fact that a discussion regarding the appropriate means to handle the conflict in the middle east has devolved into a totally off topic shooting war over argument etiquette???

<IMG SRC="http://www.jrsfilm.com/bishop1.asp">

[silera]

You can say what you feel.

You and others just dilute your opinion by making it about liberals/conservatives. It's brought up in every thread, not by you alone I am aware.

<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[GaryWyze]

To say things in language you understand, mind your Fucking business.

<font color=purple>Can you try a different language for me, because I still don't understand it?

How is anything that's said on a public message board more your business than hers?

She's right when she speaks out against generalizations. I can't stand them either. Liberal this, Conservative that... it's all a bunch of bullshit.

And more often than not, simply a tool of a lazy mind trying to make a point, without actually making a point.

Except when it comes to the French, they really are no damn good!

<center>http://czm.racknine.net/images/krustysig.jpg

Much thanks to CZM for the killer sig

>>Fuck YERDADDY, Free Our POWs<<

[Bestinshow]

Since obviously I have to defend myself and explain myself, I have a hunch that this person was intentionally condescending with their Asinine remarks due to my political beliefs. This is my hunch. I think I earned the right to hit back from the stupid bullshit that was aimed my way. I didn`t see you guys have a problem with that as much as these "labels" you are so afraid of. As far as being "no one`s business" the nature of the remarks made it personal. It is of my opinion that certain people fit into certain political stereotypes. This might not be true for everyone but I hate to tell you, sometimes it does apply. Funny how people can be called lazy, immature , stupid and that doesn`t bother anyone. But god forbid if you blame someones stance on politics, especially if you call them liberal, and all these feathers get rankled.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[travis151]

I stayed away froms these forums because of all these uneducated posts alot of people do not look up or actually resource any of their remarks. For one everybody who protested this war insisted that Iraq did not harbor terroist and this war wasn't about terror. Yet the longer this war goes on the more you see about terroist camps found (Salmon Pak) the more suicide bombers come out of the wood work. I say bring them on suicide bombers are cowards. They are only successful if they fake surrender or send suicide bombers with pregant women with them to diceive our troops. But if anybody has watch the war you can see suicide bombers have no effect on our troops when they try to rush their positions. They get mowed down plan and simple. Also on one hand I understand that the Palestinians lost their land but do you remember it was the U. f'ing N. who created the state of Isreal. It was also the U.N. who turned their backs on Isreal when not once but twice the surrounding Arabs nations tried to killed all of them. I do not blame the Isrealis on how they conduct their operations why? Because every second until the end of time Arabs will try to push them out of the Middle East. But I do agree if a separate state for Palestine is created tension should be less. But time will tell.

Red Sox=More Better

[Bestinshow]

She's right when she speaks out against generalizations.
Everybody makes generalizations from time to time. I have even seen you do it. Sometimes they apply. The point is not to make them a rule. Lets get off the politically correct bullshit.
Like you said, this is a message board.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

This message was edited by Bestinshow on 4-8-03 @ 1:33 PM

[Bestinshow]

This message was edited by Bestinshow on 4-8-03 @ 1:34 PM

[GaryWyze]

<font color=purple>And everybody double posts sometimes, that don't make it right.

<center>;)</center>

<center>http://czm.racknine.net/images/krustysig.jpg

Much thanks to CZM for the killer sig

>>Fuck YERDADDY, Free Our POWs<<

[Bestinshow]

There you go with those generalizations again.
:)

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[whoopsy]

What you don`t understand because you don`t read between the lines is this is what she was inferring. She was calling me stupid. I was being sarcastic.


Hey... whoopsy's all man, didn't realize people thought I was female.

BUT I already said the spelling remark was a cheap shot, I just get tweaked when people come out and say "What don't you understand?? How can you not see that "blah blah blah" where "blah blah blah" is something that's derivative or sounds like rhetoric. Then I see the misspellings of Al Qaeda and Chirac and it wreaks of someone getting all their info from radio or family dinner.

I'm not on tilt about conservatives, though, my whole family is conservative, (most of my friends too) and our arguments about this are civil - I will admit that guys like Fallwell and anyone who doesn't have an open mind do piss me off, but that's about it.

No harm done - I definitely started on the insult tip, and show was just responding... you could say it was a preemptive strike.

[whoopsy]

What you don`t understand because you don`t read between the lines is this is what she was inferring. She was calling me stupid. I was being sarcastic.


Hey... whoopsy's all man, didn't realize people thought I was female.

BUT I already said the spelling remark was a cheap shot, I just get tweaked when people come out and say "What don't you understand?? How can you not see that "blah blah blah" where "blah blah blah" is something that's derivative or sounds like rhetoric. Then I see the misspellings of Al Qaeda and Chirac and it wreaks of someone getting all their info from radio or family dinner.

I'm not on tilt about conservatives, though, my whole family is conservative, (most of my friends too) and our arguments about this are civil - I will admit that guys like Fallwell and anyone who doesn't have an open mind do piss me off, but that's about it.

No harm done - I definitely started on the insult tip, and show was just responding... you could say it was a preemptive strike.

[FiveB247]

Also on one hand I understand that the Palestinians lost their land but do you remember it was the U. f'ing N. who created the state of Isreal. It was also the U.N. who turned their backs on Isreal when not once but twice the surrounding Arabs nations tried to killed all of them. I do not blame the Isrealis on how they conduct their operations why? Because every second until the end of time Arabs will try to push them out of the Middle East. But I do agree if a separate state for Palestine is created tension should be less.

The UN gave approval for Israel and Palestine. They set up borders for both nations. Not just one. Most nations in the Middle East do not pursue the 'push them to the sea' policy any longer. Most want a peaceful duel-state settlement. Don't act like it's 1949 all over again...cause it's far from it. It's just the extremists in the area causing the problems.

[TheMojoPin]

Most nations in the Middle East do not pursue the 'push them to the sea' policy any longer. Most want a peaceful duel-state settlement.

I'm a wishful thinker when it comes to this situation...but this is just naive.

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[FiveB247]

It's not naive. You are associating extremists into the equation, which do not represent many of the influencial nations and their policies in the Middle East. Countries like Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia amongst others all used to hold the policy of 'push them to the sea', but no longer do. They may not be big fans of Israel, Jews or the US support there, but they do not promote or pursue those actions they once did.

http://www.intl-crisis-group.org/projects/showreport.cfm?reportid=706

[TheMojoPin]

They may not go for the hoary "drive them into the sea" line of thinking, but it's pretty clear most Arab leaders would much, MUCH rather have Israel gone in some way, shape or form as opposed to them sharing the land with the Palestinians.

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[Bestinshow]

You are associating extremists into the equation, which do not represent many of the influencial nations and their policies in the Middle East.
You fail to acknowledge that the man running this government is behind these
extremists that for some reason you deem insignificant.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[Bestinshow]

I just get tweaked when people come out and say "What don't you understand?? How can you not see that "blah blah blah" where "blah blah blah" is something that's derivative or sounds like rhetoric. Then I see the misspellings of Al Qaeda and Chirac and it wreaks of someone getting all their info from radio or family dinner.
Maybe it sounds derivative or like rhetoric to you. Maybe you`re just to pigheaded to accept the possibility that maybe you are reading propaganda. What makes you judge and jury of the relevance of my information? Sounds to me that you can`t accept that any opinion other than your own can be possible.
By the way Einstein, you can`t check Al Qaeda and chirac through spell check. They are proper nouns. And you get tweaked by my posts? Get a life.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[FiveB247]

You fail to acknowledge that the man running this government is behind these
extremists that for some reason you deem insignificant.

Ok, you named one nation in the entire Middle East that holds such thoughts. The second you could make a case for is probably Iran. But after those 2 (in which one is now over with), where does the 'push them to the sea' policy exist? It is not forthcoming to those nations and they do not hold those extremists policies any longer. It's the terror groups, fundamentalists and fanatics that hold such beliefs. Not the countries.

[TheMojoPin]

But the countries where these groups are located do little or nothing to stop the terrorists within their borders. And that can be just as bad as actively supporting them.

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[Bestinshow]

Ok, you named one nation in the entire Middle East that holds such thoughts.
Yes, but that is the nation we are talking about. That one nation that holds those thoughts is the one nation that Israel wont find peace with until those thoughts are stopped. Most of our problems with the other countries are a result of the problems from this one country. I strongly believe if we could straighten out that situation much of our problems in the Middle East would straighten out.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

This message was edited by Bestinshow on 4-9-03 @ 1:46 PM

[Bestinshow]

BUT I already said the spelling remark was a cheap shot, I just get tweaked when people come out and say "What don't you understand??

Professor, my "what don`t you understand" unlike you posts was not meant to be condescending. She didn`t understand my post! It had nothing to do with comprehension. I wanted to know what she didn`t understand in my post so I could explain myself!

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

This message was edited by Bestinshow on 4-9-03 @ 1:55 PM

[FiveB247]

Some nations don't stop it cause they'd rather have terror groups cause problems elsewhere instead of being targets themselves. Others can't stop it due to lack of control and capabilities. When it comes down to it, that's why the war on terrorism is a joke. The terrorists all hide and operate in 3rd world nations which lack control and ability to prohibit and end the actions. You can go blow up Afganistan to remove Al Qaeda, those who get out will flee to Pakistan or some other naiton with similar beliefs or believers who will support and house them. It's the same as the war on drugs, push efforts down in one nation, and it would pop up in another nation. The US needs more international support and due to varies issues, beliefs and thoughts, they don't get them.

[GaryWyze]

Most nations in the Middle East do not pursue the 'push them to the sea' policy any longer. Most want a peaceful duel-state settlement.

<font color=purple>I agree! In fact, I believe most Arab nations are about ready to give up on Islam all together and convert to Judiasm.

Those pesky suicide bombers we keep hearing so much about are actually nothing more than a way for the Arab world to rid itself of its few remaining extremist.

Before long, not only will they be welcoming Israel with open arms, but I don't doubt that they'll be asking the United States for statehood.

I can just see it now, the New York Yankees vs. the Syrian Sultans in the World Series. Well, if they can get past those tenacious Cairo Camels, that is. Talk about a bunch of humps.

And I'm looking real forward to that new Disney Yemen. The new U.S.S. Cole Coaster is said to be a real hoot. Not as much fun as Twin Towers ride, but hey, what is?

Now, I know all this is kinda hard to envision, what with many Arab nations still supplying safe haven to terrorist, refusing to even acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and smuggling arms the Iraqi resistance for use in killing American soldiers, but all that was then... as in a whole 5 hours ago.

Now that they've seen Saddam's statue come down, I think everything's gonna be hunky dorey from here on in.

Falafel, anyone?

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Much thanks to CZM for the killer sig

>>Fuck YERDADDY, Free Our POWs<<

[high fly]

Good one Gary.
The fact of the matter is that the arab countries of the region do support "push them into the sea".
They realize they can't beat little Israel militarily, so they use terrorist groups to do so.
They have not wavered from, much less renounced in word or deed their strategy or goals.


" and they ask me why I drink"

[HordeKing1]

For those who believe that the Arab/Muslim states do not want the death of every Jes and total destruction of Israel, despite the indisputable evidence to the contrary, you remind me of the Jews in Germany, blind to their own impending anihilation until it was too late.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[TheMojoPin]

Well, the biggest threat to Israel is not governments that actively demand their destruction...what's even worse are leaders like the royal family in Saudi Arabia and Arafat, who don't actively "support" the terrorist groups, but very obviously turn a blind eye to them, and don't act to stop them, when they themselves are the best bet to actually stop the terrorists! If ANY good can come out of this Iraq debacle it's that we can stop buddying up to that corrupt, lying, bastard Saudi Arabian royal family and leave them twisting in the wind.

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[FiveB247]

For those who believe that the Arab/Muslim states do not want the death of every Jes and total destruction of Israel, despite the indisputable evidence to the contrary, you remind me of the Jews in Germany, blind to their own impending anihilation until it was too late.

The more you post, the more you sound like the character from Seinfeld, "Uncle Leo". Everything bad or not in direct agreement with Israel and jews...it's obviously anti-semitism.

[TheMojoPin]

Uhm, actually, HK just said you remind him OF some of German Jewish population, not that you're AGAINST them...

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[whoopsy]

For those who believe that the Arab/Muslim states do not want the death of every Jes and total destruction of Israel, despite the indisputable evidence to the contrary, you remind me of the Jews in Germany, blind to their own impending anihilation until it was too late.


HK, man, you are extreme - but have you been to a Middle Eastern country lately, spoken to some of the Arab moderates out there (they do exist). There is certainly no love for Israel, but those who push for the destruction of Israel are drastically in the minority, whether it's because they know it's impossible or have moved passed their hatred is anybody's guess.


Sounds to me that you can`t accept that any opinion other than your own can be possible.
By the way Einstein, you can`t check Al Qaeda and chirac through spell check. They are proper nouns. And you get tweaked by my posts? Get a life.


BestInShow - That's what I get for trying to be civil, BUT as long as we're talking

- I came after you because I've read a lot of your posts and they rarely make ANY sense at all

- C'mon, Al Qaeda, Chirac, stop bringing that up, do you need spell check to help you spell Bush?

- Your sig pic is extremely, extremely gay

[Bestinshow]

I think I will put up my sigpic for Whoopsy because I know she likes it.
<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

This message was edited by Bestinshow on 4-10-03 @ 12:30 PM

[Bestinshow]

- Your sig pic is extremely, extremely gay
You call yourself whoopsy and you think my sigpic is gay? You probably think your dresses are masculine also.
- C'mon, Al Qaeda, Chirac, stop bringing that up, do you need spell check to help you spell Bush?
Me? You bring this up every post. Are you a Moron or do you have brain damage?
Spell Bush? What are you talking about? Then I see the misspellings of Al Qaeda and Chirac and it wreaks of someone getting all their info from radio or family dinner.
Doy
I came after you because I've read a lot of your posts and they rarely make ANY sense at all

I guess that answers my question. you are a moron. I`m sure alot of things don`t make sense to you. That is a problem. I guess if I was in your shoes I would be pretty pissed too.

BestInShow - That's what I get for trying to be civil, BUT as long as we're talking


You`re not civil, you`re an asshole.


<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>



This message was edited by Bestinshow on 4-10-03 @ 1:04 PM

[HordeKing1]

Take the time to read all the links on this site. At the very least browse through the topics till the end. Who knows, you just might see something that will change your mind.

http://www.pmw.org.il/


I've posted this stuff before. Perhaps it will be read this time.

The Arab terrorist scum murderers are not fighting over land. It NEVER was over land.

At Jerusalem's Al-Aksa Mosque the Muslim clergyman appointed by Arafat to the Palestinian Authority, delivered a forceful sermon instructing the faithful on the subject of Jews. (Not Israeli's.Jews in general). "Have no mercy on the Jews. No matter where they are, in any country. Fight them where they are. Whenever you meet them, kill them."

From the same pulpit, Sheikh Ikrema Sabri, the Arafat appointed Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine, issued a call to Holy War. "Every Palestinian is in a state of Jihad.who willingly sacrifice their offspring [and are] participating in the great reward of jihad to liberate Al-Aksa.

Mark Seager, a British photographer in Ramallah shortly after two Israeli were murdered (literally torn limb from limb) reported in the Sunday Telegraph of London that the mob howled "no pictures" and attacked him. The crowd displayed "such hatred, such unbelievable hatred. The worst thing was that "I realized the anger they were directing to me was the same as that which they'd had toward the [Israeli] soldier before dragging him from the police station and killing him..It was murder of the most barbaric kind.I know that I'll have nightmares for the rest of my life.

In Washington, Ottawa and Paris, Palestinian demonstrates have chanted in Arabic for the slaughter of ALL Jews. In France alone there have been more than 200 attacks on Jewish targets within the last few months. A synagogue in Versailles was destroyed, four others near Paris were desecrated and a school bus of Jewish kids stopped by gunmen.

These attacks continue in England, German, North and South America, Australia and South Africa. All directed towards Jews, not Israelis, but Jews. Not since the 1930's have Jews worldwide been subjected to this kind of threat.

Here's what we know

1. Arab kids are trained from birth to hate Jews and to kill whenever possible

2. Consider the Arabic-language TV show called "Children's Club." It has puppet shows, songs, cute characters and a rip off of Mickey Mouse. It's the Palestinian version of Sesame Street - but on this street, kids sing about becoming "suicide warriors" and directing "violence, anger, anger, anger" against Israel and ALL Jews.

3. This "education" continues their whole life.

4. With Palestinian animals like this, war is not a question of "if" but when. It will come down to a matter of "them" or "us." Israel and America's, indeed the whole civilized world MUST eliminate these vermin and scour the world of their presence.

5. Some people say that there are "innocent civilians." Bullshit! Every one of these "innocents" is out to kill Israeli's, Jews and Americans; anyone not like them.

6. Don't for a minute think that non-Jews are safe. The Arab hatred is not limited to Jews. They are merely the first and most opportune targets. Whenever the opportunity arises they will kill anyone not like them - in other words, any civilized decent human beings. Perhaps you remember the WTC on 9/11/01? Perhaps you remember the Cole? Perhaps you remember the embassy bombings?

7. These savages know only hate and through their actions have lost whatever semblance of humanity they may once have possessed.

8. I do not condemn them for their race or ethnicity, but for their actions. Because of them they are utterly without redemption. Martin Luthor King envisioned a time where a man is judged, not by the color of their skin, but by thier character. I am doing just that.

9. Americans of Arabic ethnicities have to make a choice: They are either with us, or against us. In the latter case, they must be treated like the rest of the Arab terrorist population.

10.

[TheMojoPin]

So...we're going to war for Israel? Because our government sure doesn't seem to think so. I'm so confused...

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[FiveB247]

Horde King...that site you posted is clearly biased towards the Israeli perspective. It's obvious Palestine has problems controlling the extremists...but that doesn't clear Israel from many of their wrong doings either. It's no longer 1949. Middle Eastern nations are not trying to push jews to the sea as you want to make it seem. Anti-israeli thoughts maybe felt...but doesn't make it as cut and dry as you want it to be.

When Israel is living in peace...it will be from a dual state peace process...not a radical Israeli government attempting to remove the terrorists and killling civilians in the process. Cause that only builds more aggression for the opposition. There are many fundamentalist Israeli's more radical claiming hill settlements which once were claimed by Palestinians as well. Nowadays...civilians are getting killed on both sides...not just one side. It's tit for tat and it will never lead to a peaceful Israel state as you wish for.

When it comes down to logistics and reasoning....it's Zionism vs. Intifada. Is one really more correct then the other? When you have that answer...let me know...I'm curious to see how god responds.

[HBox]

1. Arab kids are trained from birth to hate Jews and to kill whenever possible


That is just silly. I can buy that they hate Jews, but kill whenever possible? That's just ridiculous. Every single Arab isn't a suicide bombing killing machine.

4. With Palestinian animals like this, war is not a question of "if" but when. It will come down to a matter of "them" or "us." Israel and America's, indeed the whole civilized world MUST eliminate these vermin and scour the world of their presence


Ah, the Final Solution?

5. Some people say that there are "innocent civilians." Bullshit! Every one of these "innocents" is out to kill Israeli's, Jews and Americans: anyone not like them.


Another ridiculous over-generalization.

6. Don't for a minute think that non-Jews are safe. The Arab hatred is not limited to Jews. They are merely the first and most opportune targets. Whenever the opportunity arises they will kill anyone not like them - in other words, any civilized decent human beings. Perhaps you remember the WTC on 9/11/01? Perhaps you remember the Cole? Perhaps you remember the embassy bombings?


This is starting to read like Mein Kampf.

8. I do not condemn them for their race or ethnicity, but for their actions. Because of them they are utterly without redemption. Martin Luthor King envisioned a time where a man is judged, not by the color of their skin, but by thier character. I am doing just that.


You are condemning a whole race of people for the actions of a few.

9. Americans of Arabic ethnicities have to make a choice: They are either with us, or against us. In the latter case, they must be treated like the rest of the Arab terrorist population.


But the non-terrorists in the Arab states have no such choice, and should be exterminated?



This message was edited by HBox on 4-11-03 @ 1:14 AM

[TheMojoPin]

What HK so easily condemns is criticizing towards Israel, because he claims it's done because of WHO populates Israel, and they don't seperate the people from the country. So essentially, to criticize Israel is to criticize the Jews. But on the same token, in his support of Israel, he's doing that exact same thing he's accusing others of, and not seperating the religious makeup of the population from the government. He's defending Israel almost solely on the basis of who populates Israel, not as to whether or not a legitmiate government can make mistakes.

I'm a realist. The Palestinians, especially their leaders, have far, FAR more work to accomplish than the Israelis to achieve some semblance of peace with Israel. But at the same time, the blinders-on, closeminded, "extreme reaction or nothing" tactics and policy of Israel is nothing short of ignorant, detrimental, and quite frankly, suicidal. Israel IS the country being attacked, and as such, has every right to defend itself. But the tactics used serve to do NOTHING except provoke further action against Israel. Logic would dictate that other avenues should be at least considered that might actually help Israel NOT be in a perpetual state of conflict. Whether HK wants to acknowledge it or not, every conflict, even this one, has two sides, and nothing can be accomplished without both sides doing all that they can to attempt change. And, again whether he likes it or not, someone has to take the first step. What's happening now obviously isn't "working", and only leads to more bloodshed on either side. Only a fool allows this to continue for the sake of...what, pride?

In my mind, Israel deserves to be safe. And the fact that its leaders are not willing to try to break the norm in terms of their policies to actually prevent the populace from being killed is nothing short of insulting and disgusting. The Palestinian government's refusal to crackdown on extremists and terrorists is also just as insulting, and even more monstrous, as is the extremist rhetoric that clamors for the destruction of Israel and the death of Jews. But to simply preach the same asinine bile from the "other side" makes you no better than a common terrorist. HK may not like it, but his mentality makes him part of everything that's wrong with the Israel/Palestine situation, and his rhetoric only serves to make the world an even more dangerous place not only for Israel, but the Jews as a whole. You may try and somehow distance yourself, but if you sound like a terrorist, think like a terrorist, and preach like a terrorist, you're pretty much only one small step away from actually BEING a terrorist.

It's an ugly thing, but ugly things are being said all around, and it's no less wrong, frightening or dangerous when it's advocated by someone on "our side."

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-11-03 @ 1:46 AM

[TheMojoPin]

I do not condemn them for their race or ethnicity, but for their actions.

That's completely wrong. If this were true, you'd condemn those that actually engage in terrorism instead of issuing blanket statements that damn every other person related to the terrorists, near the terrorists or in the same country as the terrorists. By your way of thinking, a country where all of the citizens do not fight day and night to prevent any kind of murder from occuring are just as guilty as the person who actually did the murdering. At every chance you get, you do your best to dehumanize, stereotype, slur and slander an entire RACE, and not those actually responsible for the loathsome terrorism that we oppose. Every Arab statement, idea, source, media outlet and philosophy is immediately dismissed by you simply because it IS Arab and therefore must "automatically be nothing but a lie." This is no different from an Arab extremist doing the same towards the Jews. Whether you want to admit it or not, you're speaking the same type of hate that you so loathe to hear. You can't wallow with evil and then claim to somehow be less guilty than those that declare, preach and speak the same intolerance, violent rhetoric and racism. Evil is evil is evil, hate is hate is hate and racism is racism is racism. If that's the path you choose, so be it. I just don't think you'll appreciate the company you'll be keeping.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-11-03 @ 1:11 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Remember this? Any sane person realizes this is despicable...

<img src=http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030326/i/1048694388.3623927876.jpg>

Yet according to the man that originally posted it, simply replacing "Jews" with "Arabs" would be perfectly OK, completely different, and not any less loathsome and evil.

I call foul.

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[PanterA]

I saw that same headband in a Becks beer catalog.

I think you need to save 3500 bottle labels to get it.

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[TheMojoPin]

Hey...who's got my Heiney?

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[The Chairman]

Despite being warned about this Forum, I just spent the last half hour reading every post in this thread.

As a highly intelligent and well educated son of a Jewish mother, who was raised a Jew and who is extremely well read and has a solid understanding of current events, world culture and political science, all I can say is:

I agree with Mojo.

HK's posts have degraded into radical and patently offensive vitriol. HK, I think you should consider putting yourself on an extended vacation. How you can justify posting such heinous rhetoric and myopic propaganda which attacks an entire culture while having a double standard as a moderator and being so quick to castigate others who do not share your pro-Zionist worldview is beyond my capacity to understand. There should be a link to this thread on a hate crimes web site. Scary stuff.

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[Dewey]

Let's go play with trucks or something.


How about tits? I propose we add to the Geneva convention, and during every war, Monday is a cease-fire "play with tits" day.

Why Monday? It doesn't conflict with anyone's religious holy days, so far as I know, and it would give all something to look forward to on Mondays.

As far as the Palestinians helping Iraq goes, I say "bring 'em on". I don't wish any harm to our troops, far from it, but I'd like to see every terrorist in the world go straight to Iraq and take on our boys and girls. We'd help them out with their martyrdom wishes, and solve the terrorism problem right quick.

And no, I didn't read every post in this thread. As soon as they get longer than "War and Peace", I jump to the cliff notes. So if I'm repeating anyone else's thoughts, tough shit.

<IMG SRC="http://www.agw-werbeartikel.de/images/easy-rider.jpg"><br>"Still searching for America."

[Bestinshow]

Sorry about the double post. I don`t know how I keep doing that lately.
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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 4-11-03 @ 12:56 PM

[Bestinshow]

The US needs more international support and due to varies issues, beliefs and thoughts, they don't get them.
I am tired of this explanation. What issues, beliefs and thoughts? Our foreign policy discriminates against no one. What are we guilty of? Helping Israel? Don't we give the same assistance to every other country in trouble? Or do you not consider Israel in constant danger? The Iraqi's until recently
I am sure bought into the anti-American propaganda but they seem to feel different today. I bet they like our policy.
Well, the biggest threat to Israel is not governments that actively demand their destruction...what's even worse are leaders like the royal family in Saudi Arabia and Arafat, who don't actively "support" the terrorist groups, but very obviously turn a blind eye to them, and don't act to stop them, when they themselves are the best bet to actually stop the terrorists!

That might be true for Saudi Arabia but Arafat does actively support terrorists. That is probably the main problem.

not a radical Israeli government attempting to remove the terrorists and killing civilians in the process. Cause that only builds more aggression for the opposition.
In the environment they live in that government needs to be radical. I am curious, after Sept 11, did you want to peacefully talk to Al Qeada? Have a two state peace process? I am really curious how you feel about that. Because Israel is going through the same thing constantly. Unfortunately, war kills innocent people. There is no way around that. We killed innocents in Afghanistan and Iraq. All you can do is try to minimize it. Do you really expect Israel to passively sit there while they get attacked? Give me a break. Name one country in the world that would do that. Do you really believe
Israel would not sit down and negotiate if the murders would stop?
There are many fundamentalist Israeli's more radical claiming hill settlements, which once were claimed by Palestinians as well.
Fundamentalist Israeli? More radical claiming hill settlements? You clearly show your bias. What is a fundamentalist Israeli? There is no organized Israeli group preaching violence to non-Israelis. They have a military that are trying to figure out how to stop these massacres. Israeli farmers aren't going around attacking Palestinians. What is so radical about sharing land with another people?
Sharing land with other peoples is very common in the middle east. Only that doesn't seem to sit well with the Hamas and other radical groups. You seem to be mixed up with who is radical. I don't understand how you don't see that if the radical Palestinians would stop killing Israelis,
that everybody else in the region would just love to leave in peace. Unfortunately, the terrorists need to be rooted out like Al Qeada
and some of the groups in Iraq needed to be.


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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 4-11-03 @ 11:50 AM

[TheMojoPin]

That might be true for Saudi Arabia but Arafat does actively support terrorists. That is probably the main problem.

Not really. In the past, yes, he was a very active supporter and participant, but since rising to his current level of power, he's been very careful to "keep his nose clean" in the eyes of the of the international community. The worst part is is that because of his two-faced attempts at "peace", splinters groups (This is very similar to what happens to this day in Ireland...start a cease-fire, splinter groups of the IRA refuse to accept it and continue killing British citizens) constantly pop up that are more than willing to still actively engage in terrorist strikes against Israel. The only link between them and Arafat is pretty much only that they're all Palestinians...but that being said, Arafat is still the person with the best ability to STOP these groups besides massive outside intervention, and that's why his "oh, I CONDEMN these actions...but I won't do anything about it" is so despicable and dangerous. The worst thing for Israel AND especially the Palestinians is Arafat, and until he's gone, nothing can truly be accomplished.

And as for the "fundamentalist Israelis", it sounded like someone was referring to the Israeli "hilltop youth", who essentially follow the politcal line of, or hint towards it, of the extremist Israeli who killed Yitzhak Rabin in 1995. The "hilltop youth" refuse to participate in ANY activity that does not allow Israel to expand it's settlements or forces any to expand, and have made it known that they will fight both Palestinian and Israeli soldiers if they have to. They send death threats to Israeil government officials, harass Israeli soldiers, and often fire on nearby Palestinian settlements, usually unprovoked. Now keep in mind that this is an EXTREME minority of the Israeli population, but they ARE there, and they cause nothing but trouble for violence on both sides.

http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/021025/hilltop.shtml

There is also a minority of at least hundreds of thousands of Israelis who feel that Israeli expansion is being mishandled and the reprisal tactics are not working...I guess you could call them the Israeli "peaceniks".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/middle_east/2002/voices/gila.stm

I just wanted to throw these two groups out to show that the Israeli political agenda and mentality IS a fluctuating thing, as it is with almost any other country in the world. To assume that ALL the Israelis are thinking one way is just as useless as assuming ALL the Palestinians are thinking/acting one way. Having a different view of these current events doesn't automatically make you "for or against" anyone, unless you explicitly declare it. There are many, MANY issues that need to be individually weighed and considered, and jumping to conclusions so quickly is nothing short of dangerous.

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[HBox]

Our foreign policy discriminates against no one. What are we guilty of?


Not in the Middle East. In the past almost every decision we have made has been to stabilize the flow of oil. The people of the Middle East have been a second thought. Think of Iran, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia. We supported the oppresive Saudi Royal Family because we were afraid a new government would hate us so much that they wouldn't sell us oil. We probably STILL would be supporting the Saudi Royal Family if not for 9/11. We have treated the Middle East horribly in the past. I hope Iraq is a first step in regaining their trust and stopping Anti-American sentiment, but they will not trust us because everytime we have tried something there we have failed horribly.

With that being said, nothing justifies terrorism.

[silera]

Our foreign policy discriminates against no one. What are we guilty of?

The United States is guilty of making foreign policy decisions that come back to bite it in the ass time and time again.

Regardless of whether our president was republican or democratic, the history of our foreign involvement in the last 50 yrs shows how our fucked up actions abroad stemmed usually from lack of a true understanding of who we were dealing with both as enemies and as allies.



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<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[A.J.]

Regardless of whether our president was republican or democratic, the history of our foreign involvement in the last 50 yrs shows how our fucked up actions abroad stemmed usually from lack of a true understanding of who we were dealing with both as enemies and as allies.

It's been a lot longer than 50 years unfortunately.

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[silera]

It's been a lot longer than 50 years unfortunately.

Yeah.

I just didn't want to be too dramatic.


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<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[A.J.]

I just didn't want to be too dramatic.


In the Politics and Current Events Forum? :)

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[TheMojoPin]

MONROE DOCTRINE FAN SINCE DAY #1! HOLLA!!!

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[A.J.]

MONROE DOCTRINE FAN SINCE DAY #1! HOLLA!!!

TRUMAN AND BUSH DOCTRINES, YO!

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[Bestinshow]

I agree that in the past, we haven`t always done right by the complicated politics in the middle east. I mean Bush sr. basically abandoned the Iraqi opposition troops to be slaughtered. But I am referring to our current policies. It appears, to me anyway, that Bush
has good intentions with his policy and has bent over backwards to try to appeal to the innocents that are involved in these conflicts.
So far he has always done what he said he would do. It took a while to win their trust from the past, but the Iraqis seem to be on board. Hopefully he will continue to differentiate the good from the bad. This does seem to be his goal.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[Bestinshow]

Also,almost every country out there is guilty of the same things as us. Almost every country in Europe has tried to cut a slice out of the middle east for their own selfish gains. How many European colonies have there been in the past? All influencing power stuggles with the people that ultimately ran these countries, always resulting in corruption. It seems the middle east has been in a giant tugofwar all through time.

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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 4-11-03 @ 2:52 PM

[Bestinshow]

I just didn't want to be too dramatic.


I think a little drama would be nice.

;)

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[TheMojoPin]

It appears, to me anyway, that Bush
has good intentions with his policy and has bent over backwards to try to appeal to the innocents that are involved in these conflicts.
So far he has always done what he said he would do.

I agree 100%. We're definitely at a crossroads of sort right now, and we CAN do a lot of good. I'm just hoping that the shortsided nature of American politics won't sidetrack the greater good that we can accomplish. If we pull off what we're trying to do in Iraq even somewhat responsbily and capably, great things can and WILL happen.

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[Bestinshow]

I'm just hoping that the shortsided nature of American politics won't sidetrack the greater good that we can accomplish. If we pull off what we're trying to do in Iraq even somewhat responsbily and capably, great things can and WILL happen.

Not just American politics, politics period. I was always somewhat sympathetic to the general
population in iraq but after seeing these poor people on television, my sympathy has deepened drastically. Thankfully, the human element of this conflict is being emphasized and it has been an eye opening experience to me. It is a great thing that the American people and the people of Iraq seem to have warmed up to each other. Hopefully we can somehow bond with the other unfortunates
and maybe work together to stabilize the region.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[HordeKing1]

The number of Muslim/Arabs who do not support terrorism either directly or through funding or education are in such minority that they are insignificant.

Apparantly, as I suspected people did not check out the links or articles I provided and that have been provided by many others over the last few months.

I'd rather kill 100,000 "innocent" Arabs or any group for that matter than spare the millions of terrorists that absolutely want to kill hundred of millions of true innocents and are actively planning it.

It's a simple matter of survival. Us or them. Pick which side you want to be on. The Muslim Arabs have made their choice. A tiny fraction have chosen America most have chosen armagedon.

If the Arabs changed their actions, and stopped all terrorism and support of terrorism, (on earth 2 perhaps) retaliation against them to prevent further death would not be necessary. As it stands now, they want all of us dead. Only a fool wouldn't want to kill a group that sought nothing but the death of an entire nation and hemisphere for that matter.

You don't have to agree with me. You can continue to think yourself "impartial" when this situation is about as black and white as it comes. It's your choice. When your kids or grandkids are still coping with buildings blowing up around them and suicide car bombers and anti-American hatred perhaps you'll feel differently. Or perhaps you'll march and insist on peace. After all, if we don't fight, we won't kill any innocents. The fact that they will continue to target and kill our civilians is apparantly beneath notice.

I'm done. A famous mythological figure said in a novel, "there are none so blind as those who will not see."

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[TooCute]

I'm done. A famous mythological figure said in a novel, "there are none so blind as those who will not see."

No, there aren't, HordeKing.

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[TheMojoPin]

It's a simple matter of survival.

No it's not.

And I read all of the links provided, as well as the articles. Were they supposed to make things "black and white" and "cut and dry"? A single article can never hope to sum up the complexities of this situation. Very rarely do you respond directly to points or questions rasied specifically for you in these topics, except to repeatedly parrot the same line of "all of us vs. all of them" over and over again. If you've made your choice, so be it. You'll just find the company few and far between, and those that DO join you to be a most unsavory bunch. I'm sorry.

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[FiveB247]

It's a simple matter of survival. Us or them. Pick which side you want to be on. The Muslim Arabs have made their choice.

How can you try and blatantly accept and pursue Zionism when denouncing the Intifada. They're the same f'in thing with the same goals on opposing religions.

I didn't make my point as clear as I wanted to previously. When I said more radical...I meant and was refering to the younger Israeli generation, that they are more radical then their parents.

US policies in the Middle East are hypocritical and unbalanced. We condemn one nation for actions, policies, etc. and let other nations slide for the same due to oil, trade or other 'interests'. And Israel get's obviously a lot more aid then any others. If the Us seriously tries to make a peace agreement that will hold, it will be cause they are a mediator between the two parties. Not an Israeli supporter attempting to control the extremists who are causing the problems.

And someone mentioned 9-11. If the US invaded Afganistan, and more terrorists actions and bombings occured on US soil. Do you think the government might possibly change their attitude towards invasion? There would be a clear backlash of US citizens trying to remove the actions of war/ invasion in order to live and be in a peaceful America. Israel gets attacked by a terrorist, so they reply by trying to attack terrrorists. It's tit-for-tat, at this point it will go on forever. The current policy they are using will only create more opposition, hate and problems.

[Bestinshow]

And Israel get's obviously a lot more aid then any others.
They are our ally and in danger. Thats usually the way it works. What would you have us do? Treat the Palestinians and Arafat the same? Do you think they`ve earned that kind of relationship with us? Or do you feel we should kiss the terrorists` ass and that will make them like us. You repeatedly tell me that not all Palestinians are terrorists but that is not the issue. The Palestinian government is a terrorist government or allows terrorism at the very least. Until that is ended there won`t be peace. The fundamentalists in the palestinian government will never allow it. Until they are eliminated, nothing can be accomplished. You still haven`t answered my question, has any country in history not fought back when under attack as Israel is? You can throw around idealistic cliches all you want but the fact is plain and simple, Israel is under attack by terrorists. Diplomacy is not the answer. And furthermore, we are in a war against terrorism. You want us to put a terrorist government on the same footing as our most dependable ally. Be real.
If the Us seriously tries to make a peace agreement that will hold, it will be cause they are a mediator between the two parties. Not an Israeli supporter attempting to control the extremists who are causing the problems.
We repeatedly have told Arafat, stop the murder and we will sit down and talk. If you don`t control the extremists, there is nothing to talk about. I can`t believe you want to negotiate around homocide bombs.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[TheMojoPin]

We repeatedly have told Arafat, stop the murder and we will sit down and talk. If you don`t control the extremists, there is nothing to talk about. I can`t believe you want to negotiate around homocide bombs.

You're right about Arafat, but peace talks DID work for much of the 90's...it's not impossible...

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[HBox]

If the Arabs changed their actions, and stopped all terrorism and support of terrorism, (on earth 2 perhaps) retaliation against them to prevent further death would not be necessary.


How about when WE stop all terrorism. Do you remember Oklahoma City? Do you remember the sniper? Both Americans.

I'm done. A famous mythological figure said in a novel, "there are none so blind as those who will not see."


Yeah. You have some pretty sad beliefs.

[extracheese]

How can you try and blatantly accept and pursue Zionism when denouncing the Intifada. They're the same f'in thing


Five's comment is totally ludicrous - He wishes to equate the Intifada - preplanned govt controlled suicide bombings, school sponsered hate lessons with homework on how to kill jews, etc..to Israels attempts to stop them.

US policies in the Middle East are hypocritical and unbalanced. We condemn one nation for actions, policies, etc. and let other nations slide for the same


Five then goes on to compare IRaq with Israel - -this is so stupid no one here needs me to respond to this. It speaks for itself.

Five - your last post is more in line with what we might hear from Hanan Ashwari or Tariq Aziz . Israel has bent over backwards to live peacefully offering full peace for land - turned down. Americans in Iraq now understand what the israelis had to contend with all these years.
Shame on you - youve lost any credibility you ever had on this Board.

[extracheese]

How about when WE stop all terrorism. Do you remember Oklahoma City? Do you remember the sniper? Both Americans


HBOX do you really have trouble seeing these incidents in the US as isolated acts of a very fringe group? Do you also not understand that the terrorism commited by palestians are sanctioned by the community, culture and leaders?

can you NOT see this distinction?

[whoopsy]

But to simply preach the same asinine bile from the "other side" makes you no better than a common terrorist. HK may not like it, but his mentality makes him part of everything that's wrong with the Israel/Palestine situation, and his rhetoric only serves to make the world an even more dangerous place not only for Israel, but the Jews as a whole. You may try and somehow distance yourself, but if you sound like a terrorist, think like a terrorist, and preach like a terrorist, you're pretty much only one small step away from actually BEING a terrorist.


Mojo, stamp it.... This was probably one of the best and most thought out posts I've read.

[whoopsy]

We repeatedly have told Arafat, stop the murder and we will sit down and talk. If you don`t control the extremists, there is nothing to talk about. I can`t believe you want to negotiate around homocide bombs.


Arafat's corrupt and a long time terror supporter, but one of the things he does not have is the respect and control of his people. (He's actually considered an American lackey by the more extreme Palestinians for even sitting at the table with Barak). He's already proven that when he calls for a stop to the bombings, his people don't listen.

[HBox]

can you NOT see this distinction?


I see the distinction. My point is that it is impossible to expect any governemtn to be able to prevent any terrorist attacks. We can't even keep our extremists in line with all of our resources, so it is unrealistic to expect Paletinians to do the same. Even if 95% of the anti-semitic rhetoric disappeared from Palestine, you still have that 5% to worry about.

[FiveB247]

Five's comment is totally ludicrous - He wishes to equate the Intifada - preplanned govt controlled suicide bombings, school sponsered hate lessons with homework on how to kill jews, etc..to Israels attempts to stop them.

The bombers are not government sponsored...they are sponsored by terrorist groups. The Intifada is the same as Zionism due to the fact of the goals of each belief. They both want control of their lands which they feel to bestowed by god. They both use some methods which are far from righteous. One side is not as clear and washed from guilt any more then the other.

Five then goes on to compare IRaq with Israel - -this is so stupid no one here needs me to respond to this. It speaks for itself.

Actually I never mentioned any one nation specifically. I specifically stated 'some nations in the Middle East'. You mentioned Iraq and Irsael...not me.

Five - your last post is more in line with what we might hear from Hanan Ashwari or Tariq Aziz . Israel has bent over backwards to live peacefully offering full peace for land - turned down. Americans in Iraq now understand what the israelis had to contend with all these years.
That's absurd and to try and contest that we somehow now know what it is like cause we are in Iraq is simply silly. The US has seen and known these terrorists exist, operate and seen the destruction they cause. They've known for decades...it's got very little to do with how we are fighting in Iraq now.

Shame on you - youve lost any credibility you ever had on this Board


That's funny..someone with 7 posts on the board.

[high fly]

The bombers are not government sponsored...they are sponsored by terrorist groups

And the terrorist groups are sponsored by governments-- namely Iran, Syria, Libya, Iraq [until recently] and Syrian stooge Lebannon.

The Intifada is the same as Zionism due to the fact of the goals of each belief....One side is not as clear and washed from guilt any more than the other.

You appear to be equating the goals of Zionism and the Intifada. They are quite different, not only in their goals, but in their methods.
Israel just wants to live in peace with it's neighbors in it's teeny little corner of the region. The goal of the intifada is to continue pursuing the aim of wiping out all the Jews.
One wants to live in peace, the other wants to kill kill kill.
One side tries to minimize civilian casualties. The other side tries to maximize civilian casualties. Sure, there are exceptions, but in the main, this is so.
While neither side is perfect, they are not equally bad, not by a long shot.


" and they ask me why I drink"

[FiveB247]

And the terrorist groups are sponsored by governments-- namely Iran, Syria, Libya, Iraq [until recently] and Syrian stooge Lebannon.

Yeah...but our war on terrorism doesn't hold true to all those nations, now do they. Like I mentioned previously, the US holds uneven policies in the Middle East. We shall see if they go after Hamas, Hezbollah, etc...I doubt it.

You appear to be equating the goals of Zionism and the Intifada. They are quite different, not only in their goals, but in their methods. Israel just wants to live in peace with it's neighbors in it's teeny little corner of the region. The goal of the intifada is to continue pursuing the aim of wiping out all the Jews. One wants to live in peace, the other wants to kill kill kill. One side tries to minimize civilian casualties. The other side tries to maximize civilian casualties. Sure, there are exceptions, but in the main, this is so.
While neither side is perfect, they are not equally bad, not by a long shot.

Israel wants to live in peace...Yes. They also want to do so at the means of Zionism. Ownership of land from god. The goal of Intifada is quite the same...to not live under oppression and to have a nation with Jerusalem as it's capital. The both want the same things. They both cause civilian causalities with uses and intentions of making a point, obtaining or capturing terrorists etc... One side is no better or in higher moral ground then the other.

[LiquidCourage]

the US holds uneven policies in the Middle East



So?

But anyway, as far as that list goes:

we took out Iraq, we've bombed Libya, we bombed Lebanon, we funded a country that was at war with Iran, and who knows what's to come with Syria.

[FiveB247]

If you haven't noticed...none of those actions you so easily refer too, not any of them legitimately have changed anything in the Middle East nor have they significantly achieved any objectives. The goal of such actions is to remove a threat and create stability and peace. Not just remove a threat. Most of the World has some anti-american thoughts and beliefs due to the fact that we just remove threats and replace them with better versions that lean towards US policies. If you don't believe so...take a look at South and Central America.

[high fly]

They both cause civilian casualties

So did the US and Iraq. Hey Five, would you equate them also?

" and they ask me why I drink"

[FiveB247]

I never equated them. I simply said one is no better than the other. You can view the situation as one side is in the right and one is in the wrong. That is very simplistic version of the situation. I see one wrong side and one a little less wrong. They both have problems that need fixing before a peaceful agreement can be achieved.

[FiveB247]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030417/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_imprisoned_minors_3

[high fly]

So did the US and Iraq. Hey Five, would you equate them also?

I never equated them. I simply said one is no better than the other.

And that's not equating them?


" and they ask me why I drink"

[FiveB247]

Hey Tool!
You took one quote from me, and one quote from you. I never mentioned US and Iraq like that. You did. All my responses which were comparative, where all in reference to Israel and Palestine. You were the one that took it out of context and made it about US and Iraq.

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 4-17-03 @ 10:14 PM

[high fly]

I didn't say you mentioned the Us and Iraq like that.
You did try to say that both sides are equally in the wrong because they've both killed civilians and I pointed out how simplistic and wrong that is.
Are you ready to admit that yourThe bombers are not government sponsored

line is, ahem, misinformed, or are you still going to cling desparately to that bit of dopiness?
Hey Tool!

Ahhh, the standard name calling when you lose control of your emotions as you see your position begin to crumble. Let's see, I believe the correct response would begin: "Sticks and stones..."
Tee hee hee!
By the way, I agree with you that our policies are too uneven and I share your doubt that we'll go after Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[high fly]

Hey Tool!

Hey, wait a minute, maybe this "tool" appellation is a compliment!
After all, to a hammer swinging man like myself, tools are quite cool. Like that plate joiner I've had my eye on...
Then there's my Makita half inch drill that is still kicking ass after 20 years of heavy use---maw-nay!
And I've got this great custom made crowbar that's nothing but cool!
Then there's my Dewalt random orbital sander- whoa Nelly! That baby's worth it's weight in gold!
Yeah, tools are definitely cool.

" and they ask me why I drink"