a NON war post

[Meatball]

regardless of where you stand on this facsinating issue, the results of this case should prove to be 'landmark' and may signal a start to a new begining of race relations in this country.

http://breakingnews.nypost.com/dynamic/stories/S/SCOTUS_AFFIRMATIVE_ACTION?SITE=NYNYP&SECTION=HOME

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[Death Metal Moe]

I am SOOOOO Against Affirmative Action, or reverse racism as I like to call it.

Putting people in schools or on jobs just because of their skin color will only cause under qualified people to fill these positions.

You have to EARN you way in the USA.

Thanks for more failed policies Liberalism!

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[silera]

Thanks for more failed policies Liberalism!

Jesus christ.

Cut it out already Moe.

Affirmative action is a shitty solution to the underlying problem that is the disgusting state of public education in this country.

I'm all for elimination of affirmative action but only once the playing field has been leveled for everyone. If we can ensure as a nation, that all children will receive excellent education regardless of class, race or gender, then and only then will the elimination of affirmative action be plausible.

As it stands, only people a)with money and resources, or b)lucky enough to be in good school districts, or c)fortunate enough to have gifted children that get scholarships and aid to go to good academic institutions, get the provide the education that prepares children to go to college. The lack of minority representation in colleges in comparison to the general population, even with the affirmative action policies in place reflect that there are serious deficiencies and discrepancies.

Affirmative Action is putting a band aid on a water main break.



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[Death Metal Moe]

Cut it out already Moe.


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Done. Now what?

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[TooCute]

What bothers me about this case - and arguments against affirmative action in general - is that college admissions are already subjective in just about every single other category. Why should race be any different?

By the same token, I think it is quite interesting how attempts at creating 'more diverse' campuses seem to utterly fail. At least where I went to college, the student body was around 30% "people of color" ( I think that is minorities excluding asians?). Did I ever see any of them? No. They had their own fraternity and sorority, always sat at the same table in the dining hall, had their own parties...

I'm not sure what my point is; essentially: I think this lawsuit against affirmative action is dumb. I also think affirmative action doesn't work.

I don't know how to fix it.


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[silera]

Great argument.

Are you going to fingerpaint for us next?


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[Death Metal Moe]

The 1st one was free.

You gotta pay to see the show!

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[silera]

Get a real job.


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[Death Metal Moe]

I have a real job.

I put on my taxes that I'm a professional messageboard poster.

Hey, I got a refund! Go Bush tax cuts!

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[A.J.]

I'm all for elimination of affirmative action but only once the playing field has been leveled for everyone.

But then what will the "Minority Leaders" do for a living?

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[FiveB247]

Affirmative action is a failure (but it's got nothing to do with liberals or conservatives). It's initial basis was to help end minority races from be discriminated against. But it has done the opposite and punished non-minorities. I don't think there's a way you can make people stop picking or choosing others by classifications including race. Some people are racist and some are not. Some factor in race and ethnicity and others do not. There's no law that will level the field as everyone wants. It's people's mind set that needs to change, not enforcing laws.

Hey, I got a refund! Go Bush tax cuts!

Yeah...that $100 they gave back everyone was a great deal?! Now that we actually could have used it to help divert the future deficit.

[silera]

But then what will the "Minority Leaders" do for a living?

I can't name one minority leader that I think represents me.

Equality can't be mandated by law, it can be brought about with a serious commitment to quality public education, affordable housing initiatives, and the creation of permanent jobs.,


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[Knowledged_one]

My cats breath smells like cat food

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[Bama]

I think it's so funny that Clarence Thomas is against Affirmative Action since he's the product of it. Hell, he wouldn't have been appointed to the court if he wasn't the only conservative black guy Bush could find to replace the first black guy.

Ironically, Marshall didn't get the benefit of affirmative action but supported it anyway.

It's so wierd that the Court this year seems like it's following our freaking Con Law text book. They did the sodomy case when we talked about it, the affirmative action one at the same time, etc.

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This message was edited by bamanation on 4-3-03 @ 2:04 AM

[Bama]

Oh and check this out.


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/story/0,9171,1101030127-409553,00.html

you're welcome. :)

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[Se7en]

What bothers me about this case - and arguments against affirmative action in general - is that college admissions are already subjective in just about every single other category. Why should race be any different?

I see your point, but if you study the Michigan admissions process, it IS very, very hinky.

Yes, hinky.

I mean, people criticize the Repubs / Bush for going against A.A., but the anti-A.A. folks have a pretty strong argument against the Michigan admissions. If you were to score a PERFECT SAT score - the almost unattainable 1600 - they would spot you 12 points.

If you were black, they'd immediately spot you TWENTY points.

It does make you sit back and scratch your chin.

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[Def Dave in SC]

I cont agree with Affirmative Action, all though I think the people who created it had great intentions.

First off, by being a white male, I am now at a dissadvantage.Minorities now have preference over me. That is still racism.

My family goes back i think only three or four generations in this country at most. Why should i be punished for the sins of somebody else's forefathers. Also there is part of the constitution that specifically says that children cannot be punished for their fathers' crimes.

Also, by identifying applicants by race, not qualifications, we are furthering racial barriers. The only way to get past any problems affirmative action is trying to fix is to disregard race entirely. Once ones race is no longer an issue, policies like A.A. will not be necessary.

Something needs to be done, and its a damn shame that it has to be forced on us.


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[TheMojoPin]

First off, by being a white male, I am now at a dissadvantage

While affirmative action is a horribly skewed and unreliable system that needs SERIOUS overhaul or even scrapping, the above statement isn't even close to being true, so we don't need to start shaking in our boots QUITE yet...

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[TooCute]

If you were to score a PERFECT SAT score - the almost unattainable 1600 - they would spot you 12 points.

If you were black, they'd immediately spot you TWENTY points.


I'm not saying that the way they execute their goals is good, but what this suggests to me is that the Univesoty of Michigan believes that a diverse student body - that is, the actual experience you will have during your four years there - is more important to them then getting all the students who have perfect SAT scores - which may or may not be an indication of how well a student will do once they're at college.

I think that this is a good goal. It's not as if they're taking dumb minorities. They're still smart. If you're going to get rid of affirmative action for minorities, you need to get rid of it for athletes, legacies, etc. etc. etc.

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[Def Dave in SC]

While affirmative action is a horribly skewed and unreliable system that needs SERIOUS overhaul or even scrapping, the above statement isn't even close to being true, so we don't need to start shaking in our boots QUITE yet...


That's a great point, I wanted to get my point across, and should have not used hyperbole


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[erole]

It's not as if they're taking dumb minorities.
oh yeah, the dumb minorities that think afirmative action just means consensual sex.

I mean, people criticize the Repubs / Bush for going against A.A., but the anti-A.A. folks have a pretty strong argument against the Michigan admissions. If you were to score a PERFECT SAT score - the almost unattainable 1600 - they would spot you 12 points.

If you were black, they'd immediately spot you TWENTY points.


this needs to be re-quoted again and again and again.
this whole thing with colleges is about quota. gotta have the right amount of this and that or get sued by the smart minority looking to make a quick buck.
i am totaly for getting any type of disadvantaged into school (race, socio-economic, handicapped, whatever), but only if they earn it. they have to want it, and show they want it. there is no easy way to level the playing field. what people on both sides needs to understand is that when you level the playing field, when you make something unfair fair again, sacrifices must be made on both sides.
the question is...is a patch up solution better than no solution? given what would happen if there was no solution at all, we are going to have to live with the patch up solution.

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[HBox]

they have to want it, and show they want it


But if you are a white male, your rich, and your family is connected to the alumni, you can have your head implanted in your ass and still get in.

One of the biggest reasons for affirmative action in college is to make up for the lack of balance between public school systems. Michigan's system makes a seriously half-hearted attempt to solve the problem by just addressing race. What about poor white kids who go to horrible schools? They get no help. And what about rich black kids who go to great schools? Why do they need an advantage like this?

They also want to create a multi-cultural environment on campus, which I guess this accomplishes. But this current system is just seriously flawed.

[Bergalad]

Affirmative Action is broken and needs to stop. I am not responsible for a black (or asian, or hispanic, or whatever) person's difficulty. I do not need to be held accountable for what happened to them in the past. Sorry, but live in the now. Get the good grades and get into college. Blame something other than the "white man" for your problems. I recommend starting the blame with rap music. I mean, at least they could use proper english.

The real issue is with the colleges themselves. When was the last time you heard of a college closing down? College is a buisness, pure and simple. It is a mostly unnecessary institution that is completely self-serving. To go to college, most need a student loan. Student loans help out financial institutions. Financial institutions invest their (your) money into stocks and business. Businesses requires you to have a college degree to get employed. See the cycle? It's all a racket.

[LiquidCourage]

I don't understand why race should even be an issue with college admissions.
Every college application I've ever filled out had the "Race" section optional. The only people who fill it out are people trying to take advantage of the fact that they're a minority.

[TheMojoPin]

this needs to be re-quoted again and again and again.

Well, the IDEA does, but not the actual comparison. The SAT is such horseshit, for white, black, WHATEVER...

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[Meatball]

I like things simple, so i found 2 articles that tell each side of the argument

Against AA

http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Apr/04042003/commenta/44745.asp


For AA

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0102/p09s01-coop.html

According to CNN http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/12/02/scotus.affirmative.action/ IT will take until JUNE for Supreme Court to rule on this. But when they do, it will stir up alot of heated passions accross the country either way.

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[silera]

I do not need to be held accountable for what happened to them in the past. Sorry, but live in the now. Get the good grades and get into college. Blame something other than the "white man" for your problems. I recommend starting the blame with rap music. I mean, at least they could use proper english.

a) Affirmative action is a remedial remedy to make up for the fact that minorities are generally in lower income classes than whites and therefore do not get the same education that whites do. The past has nothing to do with it and it's not your fault.
b) Take a listen to the Fugees, or Tribe called Quest, or De La Soul, and get back to me on that rap thing. Whether or not you appreciate rap as music, it's poetry and reaches a huge sector of the population in ways that other music doesn't.



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[TooCute]

RE: First article posted by meatball...

college diversity programs fail to raise standards

What standards are they referring to? The academic standards of the minorities? The academic standards of the entire school? Some other sort of 'standard'? I honestly can't figure it out.

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[alexc]

a better form of affirmative action would be something based on socio-economic background. the reason i would do this is b/c it would help those that are disadvantaged. It would give the same difference to those who came through black and white but it would help those who need it. the real problem is that the poor no matter where don't have access to good education.

what irks me is that why do some ppl automatically assume that if they can't get into school they blame affirmative action. maybe the minority got into the school b/c they smart.

[TooCute]

It would give the same difference to those who came through black and white but it would help those who need it. the real problem is that the poor no matter where don't have access to good education.

But this IS taken into account already.

And as far as the poor not having access to good education is concerned: If they didn't have access to good education to prepare them for college, are you suggesting that colleges ought to let them in anyway? On the chance that they might do well?

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[alexc]

And as far as the poor not having access to good education is concerned: If they didn't have access to good education to prepare them for college, are you suggesting that colleges ought to let them in anyway? On the chance that they might do well

I am naive but i think that giving them a chance is a good thing. of course we have to look at the person's whole academic past. the trancript of the applicant does show if they have a potential to make it into the university. back to the subject, it is still the student grades that determines taht they get the degree at a university.

[TooCute]

I am naive but i think that giving them a chance is a good thing.

This is exactly what less competetive colleges are for - a chance. There are any number of schools that just about anyone can get into - hell, I teach at one, and I can tell you that while perhaps most of the facilities and opportunities are nowhere near as nice as at the most selective schools, and while the majority of students there are in fact mediocre or worse, I'd put my best students up against the best students from any highly selective school any day.

of course we have to look at the person's whole academic past. the trancript of the applicant does show if they have a potential to make it into the university. back to the subject, it is still the student grades that determines taht they get the degree at a universiy

Of course it is the student's grades that determines whether or not they will get a degree at a university, and more often than not, a student's grades in high school are a good indication of whether or not a student will succeed in college. But when you look at the most selective universities - which are, after all, what we're talking about - nearly everyone graduates. They (grades) are something of a moot point.

Better question is: are the grades of a student who goes to PS 180 (one of the worst NY Public Schools as about 12% of the students performing at an acceptable level) and the grades of a student who goes to Stuyvesant (one of the best public high schools in the nation) equivalent? Hardly.


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This message was edited by TooCute on 4-7-03 @ 10:37 AM

[alexc]

so too cute.... am i just wrong?

[TooCute]

so too cute.... am i just wrong?

Who knows? I don't think there is any 'right' answer when it comes to affirmative action. It's far more complicated than simpl right and wrong.

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[TooCute]

College is a buisness, pure and simple. It is a mostly unnecessary institution that is completely self-serving.

I learned a lot in college :(

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[TooCute]

I don't understand why race should even be an issue with college admissions.
Every college application I've ever filled out had the "Race" section optional. The only people who fill it out are people trying to take advantage of the fact that they're a minority.

While this may be true, schools often use other means of determining race, as well, for example, by looking at a students name. Is any school going to admit that the Laqueesha Brown who had a 3.8 GPA at a public school and got 1480 on her SATs might have an advantage over Mary Pendleton who had a 3.9 GPA at a prep school and got a 1520 on her SATs? Of course not. Is it a possibility, or even a probability? I'm clearly oversimplifying, but I don't think it's even remotely out of the realm of possibility.

But you can be damn sure that if Mary gets rejected an Laqueesha gets in, and Mary find out, there's a really good chance she's going to sue on the basis of reverse discrimination because Laqueesha was "less qualified" than she was.

Is this right? Wrong?

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[silera]

Better question is: are the grades of a student who goes to PS 180 (one of the worst NY Public Schools as about 12% of the students performing at an acceptable level) and the grades of a student who goes to Stuyvesant (one of the best public high schools in the nation) equivalent? Hardly.

Exactly, and that is why affirmative action is stupid.

It does not address the huge discrepancy in education options available to children, which I think are more often related to economic class than to race. It just happens that minorities tend to fall into the lower classes due to a combination of factors.

That's why affirmative action should remain in place until federal, state and local governments can figure out a way to educate children from kindergarten through high school in a uniform and effective manner.

As it stands though, either you are lucky enough to be in a good school district, a gifted child with superior intellect to overcome your awful district, or blessed to be born to parents that have enough resources to provide quality education.


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[TooCute]

It does not address the huge discrepancy in education options available to children, which I think are more often related to economic class than to race. It just happens that minorities tend to fall into the lower classes due to a combination of factors

Exactly. The answer, however, is not to let students from socio-economically disadvantaged backgrounds into highly selective schools to 'give them a chance'.

Not that I think this is what anyone is suggesting.

There are two problems, and they are separate:

1. Affirmative action in college admissions. This generally applies to highly qualified minorities. They just might happen to be slightly less qualified than a non-minority who is rejected. The same happens for students in MANY other aformentioned categories (legacy, athletics, etc.) so I fail to see why anyone is so upset about it - besides that race is a touchy subject, and athletic ability is not.

2. Education available to socio-economically disadvantaged, eh fuck that mouthful, poor people. Poor people can't go to good schools. Therefore they generally don't have the resrouces to even go to a community college. Therefore they make less money, and their kids have the same problem. Affirmative action isn't going to fix this.


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