INDIA IS PUSHING TOWARDS "PRE-EMPTIVE STRIKE" AGAINST PAKISTAN.

[TheMojoPin]

THIS is what a lot of the "anti-war" people mean by the invasion of Iraq setting a deadly and damaging type of precedent. Scary stuff.

Indian defence minister joins Pakistan pre-emptive strike chorus
Fri Apr 11, 2003

JODHPUR, India (AFP) - Defence Minister George Fernandes
reiterated Indian warnings that Pakistan was a prime case for
pre-emptive strikes.

"There are enough reasons to launch such strikes against
Pakistan, but I cannot make public statements on whatever action
that may be taken," Fernandes told a meeting of ex-soldiers in
this northern Indian desert city on Friday.

The renewed warning came just hours after US Secretary of State
Colin Powell (news - web sites) said Washington would strive to
cool tensions between nuclear enemies Pakistan and India, who
have fought three wars since 1947.

Fernandes said he endorsed Foreign Minister Yashwant Sinha's
recent comments that India had "a much better case to go for
pre-emptive action against Pakistan than the United States has
in Iraq (news - web sites)."

Sinha also argued that Pakistan was "a fit case" for US military
action, because it had weapons of mass destruction and
terrorists.

Where is the US to stand in this without getting egg on our faces? India has traditonally been our "truest" ally of the two, but Pakistan was perhaps our staunchest ally in the "war on terror"...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030411/wl_sthasia_afp/india_pakistan_030411095309

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[A.J.]

They've been threatening this shit since 1947.

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A Skidmark production.

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[IrishAlkey]

I'm pro Dunkin Donuts.

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[silera]

Now, we can't really keep them from doing it without looking like assholes though.



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<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[TheMojoPin]

They've been threatening this shit since 1947.

Yeah, but now India is specifically using us and Iraq and saying, "hey, WE wanna do that!"

And things are just a tad more nuke-tastic between those two than they were back in '47.

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[Captain Rooster]

This is one argument against the war in Iraq that made perfect sense to me.

If we set the standard for the doctrine of pre-emtion then we should not be surprised when every nation with a bone to pick (cliche) with another nation decides to mass troops and start conflict.

Frustrating!



<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/TakeaKneeSig.jpg>

[Recyclerz]

To paraphrase (& probably mess up) a George Carlin bit re: India & Pakistan

Two societies that share:

religious zealotry
nukes
a belief in a pretty nice afterlife


What's not to like? :-)



[b]Free Yerdaddy![b]

[El Mudo]

I don't know if Musharaff will even be around much longer if the hard-liners have their way..they HATE him for supporting the war and capturing al qaeda people. itll be really bad news there if the hard liners over throw him, cause i would expect them to go right after India.

Mojo, seems to me you are suggesting a "domino theory", which has been roundly criticised before as not being an effective reason to get us into Nam. The thought there was all of SE Asia would go communist, and it didn't, so now do you think everyone will go after people they don't like?

....Garry Owen....

[TheMojoPin]

I don't think it has to be "everyone" for it to be a problem...India and Pakistan was always one of the key situations I was wary about when thinking of this sort of precedent being set. The "Domino Theory" was based on the notion that communism MIGHT spread to other countries, but it couldn't be guessed where...there are far too many countries with grudges like India and Pakistan, and you don't really even have to guess where this might pop up.

The "Domino Theory" was based on assumption. From the report above, my line of argument is essentially already slapping us in the face with the comments of the Indian government. The Domino Theory was also based in the idea of American action/reaction and that fact that we had already declared communism around the world "our enemy"...with this new type of "ripple effect", American can be made to look bad or actually harmed by conflicts that really don't involve us simply by the fact that the parties involved can point to us and say, "but HE did it FIRST!"

Remember, the world bears more grudges than lonely high court judges...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-11-03 @ 5:15 PM

[ChrisTheCop]

Where is the US to stand in this without getting egg on our faces?
But I thought we werent the policemen of the world!? If a nation is threatened by another, they have every right/responsibility to protect themselves. Naturally, we (the US) should join the world in any effort to avert war, as we did with Iraq. But when negotiations dont work, there will be conflict. There will always be war. And to be afraid that some countries will turn around and start quoting those ever-popular anti drug commercials saying, "I learned it from YOU!", is superficial.

<img src="http://store3.yimg.com/I/aftstore_1729_752978">

[HBox]

Naturally, we (the US) should join the world in any effort to avert war, as we did with Iraq. But when negotiations dont work, there will be conflict. There will always be war. And to be afraid that some countries will turn around and start quoting those ever-popular anti drug commercials saying, "I learned it from YOU!", is superficial.


We can't push for peace in this case without losing all credibility. Its not superficial, these two are looking for any excuse to go at it. And now that they have nuclear weapons, the whole world will pay. They won't listen to us when we stress the need for peace; instead, they will point to us for justification for war.

And if you actually think we tried to avert war with Iraq, you are naive. We went to the UN to get allies, not to avert war.

[TheMojoPin]

And to be afraid that some countries will turn around and start quoting those ever-popular anti drug commercials saying, "I learned it from YOU!", is superficial.

I don't have to be afraid of it...they're doing it already!

Fernandes said he endorsed Foreign Minister Yashwant Sinha's recent comments that India had "a much better case to go for pre-emptive action against Pakistan than the United States has in Iraq (news - web sites)."


Sinha also argued that Pakistan was "a fit case" for US military action, because it had weapons of mass destruction and terrorists.

They're already specifically pointing to US and what we did! I'm also not saying that we HAVE to intervene or respond to these sorts of crisises...but if we DID choose to, it would just be a tricky situation for us to get through without looking like hypocrites in some way, shape or form...

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[phixion]

first of all we as a nation must understand that indians and pakistanis hate each other. as a ppl 4get the nation. indians hate pakistani's way more than we hated Saddam. its similar to hatred the english had for the french 2 centuries ago....

we as the US cannot interfere....if we do we look stupid...we just have to avert nuclear war... if they battle with anything less than WMDs than we shouldnt get involved...but like i said we did something unprecedented 3 weeks ago...now here are the consequences.....

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"smoking weed, smoking weed doing coke, drinking beers
drinking beers, beers, beersrolling fatties, smoking bluntswho smokes the blunts?we smoke the blunts." -Jay

[FiveB247]

You what I find interesting in this scenario is that they are similar to the middle east unrest due to the fact of the religious implications over land....yet the US doesn't devoutly back one side. It would be sad to see the awful forthcomings of our actions being used in other nations as reasons and justifications for others to pursue war. It's a good thing they don't have WMD and nukes....Uh oh..

[A.J.]

And things are just a tad more nuke-tastic between those two than they were back in '47.

True that but like with North Korea, any nuke they drop on Pakistan will no doubt irradiate a considerable segment of their own civilian population.

In a nation of 1 billion, how many dead would be considered "acceptable losses"?

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[HBox]

In a nation of 1 billion, how many dead would be considered "acceptable losses"?


If either side is on the verge of collapse, anything is possible.

[DarkHippie]

I don't what to say now. By now, you all know that this was one of my main argument against the war in iraq; this was exactly what I feared, only on a grander scale. i can only hope that the world settles down, and they don't take the "predictable course."

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[El Mudo]

indians hate pakistani's way more than we hated Saddam. its similar to hatred the english had for the french 2 centuries ago....



*sung to the tune of "my favorite things*

*Muslims hate Hindus and Hindus hate Muslims*

*Muslims hate Christians and Christians hate Muslims*

*Hindus hate Christians and Muslims hate Jews*

*these are a few of my favorite fights.....*

....Garry Owen....

[ChrisTheCop]

i can only hope that the world settles down
On that we agree.

<img src="http://www.wilsoninfo.com/usflag2.gif">

[TooCute]

Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,
And the black folks hate the white folks;
To hate all but the right folks
Is an old established rule.

But during National Brotherhood Week,
National Brotherhood Week,
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clark are dancing cheek to cheek.
It's fun to eulogize
The people you despise
As long as you don't let 'em in your school.

Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,
And the rich folks hate the poor folks.
All of my folks hate all of your folks,
It's American as apple pie.

But during National Brotherhood Week,
National Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and shake the hand
Of someone you can't stand,
You can tolerate him if you try!

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews.

But during National Brotherhood Week,
National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-Smile-At-One-Another-Hood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear;
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!


I love Tom Lehrer.

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[ChrisTheCop]

I love Tom Lehrer
In that case, here's another (keep in mind it was written in the 70's:First we got the bomb, and that was good,
'Cause we love peace and motherhood.
Then Russia got the bomb, but that's okay,
'Cause the balance of power's maintained that way.
Who's next?

France got the bomb, but don't you grieve,
'Cause they're on our side (I believe).
China got the bomb, but have no fears,
They can't wipe us out for at least five years.
Who's next?

Then Indonesia claimed that they
Were gonna get one any day.
South Africa wants two, that's right:
One for the black and one for the white.
Who's next?

Egypt's gonna get one too,
Just to use on you know who.
So Israel's getting tense.
Wants one in self defense.
"The Lord's our shepherd," says the psalm,
But just in case, we better get a bomb.
Who's next?

Luxembourg is next to go,
And (who knows?) maybe Monaco.
We'll try to stay serene and calm
When Alabama gets the bomb.
Who's next?
Who's next?
Who's next?
Who's next?



<img src="http://www.wilsoninfo.com/usflag2.gif">

[DarkHippie]

wow, I haven't heard Tom Leher in years.

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[Drudge Jr.]

reminds me of crass...


They won't destroy the world, no, they're not that crazy.
You're dealing with the town hall. They're not that crazy.
No political solution so why should we bother?
Well whose fucking head do you think they're holding over?
FOUR. THREE. TWO. ONE. FIRE.

They can't wait to use it. They can't wait to use it.
They can't wait to try it out. They can't wait to use it.
They've got a bomb. They've got a bomb
And they can't wait to use it on me.

Twenty odd years now waiting for the flash...

Twenty odd years now waiting for the flash,
All of the oddballs thinking we'll be ash.
Well the four minute warning has run on into years,
Are we waiting for them to confirm our fears?
FOUR. THREE. TWO. ONE. FIRE.

They can't wait to use it. They can't wait to use it.
They can't wait to try it out. They can't wait to use it.
They've got a bomb. They've got a bomb
And they can't wait to use it on me.

They can build them small, call it tactical.
Stop the fallout, make it practical
To smash the misfits who foul up their scene
With the practical, tactical, killing machine.
FOUR. THREE. TWO. ONE. FIRE.

They can't wait to use it. They can't wait to use it.
They can't wait to try it out. They can't wait to use it.
They've got a bomb. They've got a bomb
And they can't wait to use it on me.
Me. Me. Me. Me. Me. Me. Me. Me. Me. Me. I. Me. Me. Me.


[center]
<img src="http://drudgejr.JNIV.net/ronfezsig.GIF">

[phixion]

*Muslims hate Hindus and Hindus hate Muslims*

*Muslims hate Christians and Christians hate Muslims*



well where i am from, Trinidad, the population a third hindu, a third muslim, and a third christian. for the most part the 3 religions get 2gether really peacefully. religion was never a reason for fighting there, race was. u were either Indian or Negro.....thats where the lines were drawn. but religion was never a concern, my family is pretty much the same ratio as trinidad: 1/3 hindu, 1/3 muslim, and 1/3 christian.

the real reason why hindus hate muslims is cuz they wished to get rid of the caste system while the hindus didnt. in trinidad the english government destroyed the caste system not the ppl so there was nothing to squabble over.

<IMG SRC="http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/phixion.gif">
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drinking beers, beers, beersrolling fatties, smoking bluntswho smokes the blunts?we smoke the blunts." -Jay

[TooCute]

In that case, here's another (keep in mind it was written in the 70's

Try the 60's. For all I know he wrote it even earlier; it was recorded in the 60's. The National Brotherhood Week song was recorded in the 50's!!

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[ChrisTheCop]

oh, I , uh, er, um...my shirt fell off.
Okay, here's another one (from one of his 1960's albums anyway) thats pretty on target even today:
When someone makes a move
Of which we don't approve,
Who is it that always intervenes?
U.N. and O.A.S.,
They have their place, I guess,
But first, send the Marines!

We'll send them all we've got,
John Wayne and Randolph Scott,
Remember those exciting fighting scenes?
To the shores of Tripoli,
But not to Mississippoli,

What do we do? We send the Marines!
For might makes right,
And till they've seen the light,
They've got to be protected,
All their rights respected,
'Till somebody we like can be elected.

Members of the corps
All hate the thought of war,
They'd rather kill them off by peaceful means.
Stop calling it aggression,
we HATE that expression.
We only want the world to know
That we support the status quo.
They love us everywhere we go,
So when in doubt,
Send the Marines!






This message was edited by ChrisTheCop on 4-12-03 @ 1:54 AM

[TheMojoPin]

We'll send them all we've got,
John Wayne and Randolph Scott

"Randolph Scott!"

"RAAAAAA-A-A-A-AAAAANDOLPH SCOTT!!!"

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[DarkHippie]

damn mojo, you beat me to it :(

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[TooCute]

Yeah? Well... take THIS!

The heart of every man in our platoon must swell with pride,
For the nation's youth, the cream of which is marching at his side.
For the fascinating rules and regulations that we share,
And the quaint and curious costumes that we're called upon to wear.

Now Al joined up to do his part defending you and me.
He wants to fight and bleed and kill and die for liberty.
With the hell of war he's come to grips,
Policing up the filter tips,
It makes a fellow proud to be a soldier!

When Pete was only in the seventh grade, he stabbed a cop.
He's real R.A.* material, and he was glad to swap
His switchblade and his old zip gun
For a bayonet and a new M-1.
It makes a fellow proud to be a soldier!

After Johnny got through basic training, he
Was a soldier through and through when he was done.
Its effects were so well rooted,
That the next day he saluted
A Good Humor man, an usher, and a nun.

Now, Fred's an intellectual, brings a book to every meal.
He likes the deep philosophers, like Norman Vincent Peale.
He thinks the army's just the thing,
Because he finds it broadening.
It makes a fellow proud to be a soldier!

Now, Ed flunked out of second grade, and never finished school.
He doesn't know a shelter half from an entrenching tool.
But, he's going to be a big success,
He heads his class at OCS.**
It makes a fellow proud to be a soldier!

Our old mess sergeant's taste buds had been shot off in the war.
But his savory collations add to our esprit de corps.
To think of all the marvelous ways
They're using plastics nowadays.
It makes a fellow proud to be a soldier!

Our lieutenant is the up-and-coming type,
Played with soldiers as a boy, you just can bet.
It is written in the stars
He will get his captain's bars,
But he hasn't got enough box tops yet.

Our captain has a handicap to cope with, sad to tell.
He's from Georgia, and he doesn't speak the language very well.
He used to be, so rumor has,
The Dean of Men...at Alcatraz.
It makes a fellow proud to be,
What as a kid I vowed to be,
What luck to be allowed to be a soldier. (At ease!)


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[ChrisTheCop]

damn you TooCute!! okay...So long, Mom,
I'm off to drop the bomb,
So don't wait up for me.
But while you swelter
Down there in your shelter,
You can see me
On your TV.

While we're attacking frontally,
Watch Brinkally and Huntally,
Describing contrapuntally
The cities we have lost.
No need for you to miss a minute
Of the agonizing holocaust. (Yeah!)

Little Johnny Jones he was a U.S. pilot,
And no shrinking violet was he.
He was mighty proud when World War Three was declared,
He wasn't scared,
No siree!

And this is what he said on
His way to Armageddon:

So long, Mom,
I'm off to drop the bomb,
So don't wait up for me.
But though I may roam,
I'll come back to my home,
Although it may be
A pile of debris.

Remember, Mommy,
I'm off to get a commie,
So send me a salami,
And try to smile somehow.
I'll look for you when the war is over,
An hour and a half from now!




<img src="http://www.azfop.com/graphics/us-flag1.gif">

[TooCute]

We're going to run out of appropriate Tom Lehrer songs pretty soon I think ;) This one is already stretching it...

Sleep, baby, sleep, in peace may you slumber,
No danger lurks, your sleep to encumber.
We've got the missiles, peace to determine,
And one of the fingers on the button will be German.

Why shouldn't they have nuclear warheads?
England says no, but they all are soreheads.
I say a bygone should be a bygone,
Let's make peace the way we did in Stanleyville and Saigon.

Once all the Germans were warlike and mean,
But that couldn't happen again.
We taught them a lesson in 1918
And they've hardly bothered us since then.

So, sleep well, my darling, the sandman can linger.
We know our buddies won't give us the finger.
Heil - hail - the Wehrmacht, I mean the Bundeswehr,
Hail to our loyal ally!
M L F
Will scare Brezhnev.
I hope he is half as scared as I!


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This message was edited by TooCute on 4-12-03 @ 3:21 PM

[El Mudo]

"Randolph Scott!"

"RAAAAAA-A-A-A-AAAAANDOLPH SCOTT!!!"




Everbody knows when you go to the show
You can't take the kids along
You've gotta read the paper and know the code of G, PG and R and X
You gotta know what the movie's about
Before you even go
Tex Ritter's gone and Disney's dead
The screen is filled with sex.
Whatever happened to Randolph Scott ridin' the range alone
Whatever happened to Gene and Tex And Roy and Rex, the Durango Kid
Whatever happened to Randolph Scott
His horse, plain as can be
Whatever happened to Randolph Scott
Has happened to the best of me.
Everbody's tryin' to make a comment
About our doubts and fears
True Grit's the only movie I've really understood in years
You gotta take your analyst along To see if it's fit to see
Whatever happened to Randolph Scott Has happened to the best of me.
Whatever happened to Johnny Mack Brown And Alan "Rocky" Lane
Whatever happened to Lash LaRue I'd love to see them again
Whatever happened to Smiley Burnett Tim Holt and Gene Autry
Whatever happened to all of these Has happened to the best of me.


www.srmason-sj.org/.../Issues/ oct02/klein-scott.jpg

....Garry Owen....

[NewYorkDragons80]

Where is the US to stand in this without getting egg on our faces? India has traditonally been our "truest" ally of the two, but Pakistan was perhaps our staunchest ally in the "war on terror"...
Well, India was staunchly neutral and very critical of both the United States and the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Pakistan, on the other hand, was a strong Cold War ally who helped us send the Soviets packing in Afghanistan. I don't recall a time when India was our "ally".

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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[TheMojoPin]

I don't recall a time when India was our "ally".

Well, in terms of type of government, trade and diplomacy, the US has always "gotten along" better with India...more diplomatic stability...our relationship with Pakistan has fluctuated wildly...

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[NewYorkDragons80]

True. Our war against Iraq was not pre-emptive, it was a continuation of the Persian Gulf War. The cease-fire agreement was violated by the Iraqis, opening the door for war with Iraq. That is what our State Department will say to the Indians.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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