Who's next....

[FiveB247]

It appears the US is now beginning rumblings about Syria. Terror links, holding WMD, Iraqi leadership, chemical and biological weapons, etc... Are we going to do this whole thing over again? Is Operation Syrian Freedom upon us? Where will it end?

Btw, Syria obviously a guilty country of many of those allegations...but they did mention a valuable point about Israel's holding of WMD.

[jocefus]

after syria, iran will be next...

http://wnewsgirl.homestead.com/files/DodgersSig.gif
sig courtesy of amy

www.mp3.com/mollydoll

honk if your horny

knockin boots and shootin pool

[Wolf]

<img src="http://www.mcarecords.com/UMG/jpg/A3829278BCC04F83BDADA2F337F0F081.jpg">


http://www.frichild.com - Friday's Child
<img src="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/onaarmy/files/cuttericeman/cuttericemanbanner1.jpg">
The man in the picture is not me

This message was edited by cuttericeman on 4-15-03 @ 1:30 PM

[CaptClown]

http://www.angelfire.com/wrestling/flairgirl/images/flair1.jpg

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army

[CaptClown]

I really hate it when I double post!!!



This message was edited by CaptClown on 4-14-03 @ 1:55 PM

[GrimSanity]

it will never end now.

<IMG SRC=http://members.aol.com/vikorynotvengnce/images/grimsanity3.gif>

Real serial killers carry an ax watching there heads drip like candle wax and your labled just another victim.

[GaryWyze]

<font color=purple>Hey, as long as we're over there, why not Syria?

As for their point about Israel having W of M D, so do we. But until such time that either of us start to harbor terrorist or send soldiers to fight for Saddam Hussein, I fail to see the relevance.

<center>http://czm.racknine.net/images/krustysig.jpg

Much thanks to CZM for the killer sig

>>Fuck YERDADDY, Free Our POWs<<

[FiveB247]

Well if the US's next objective is to disarm every nation who is hostile in some way, whether harboring terrorists, funding terrorists, holding WMD, and being a rogue nation in some way or shape.

If those are the objectives and practices of US policy....The US is now the officially Police of the World. We've danced around such notions and ideas in the past. But with policy that encompasses much of the World, setting and alligning goals of how we want to deem nations, we are policing the world as well as setting a global order which is benefical to us, our ways, beliefs, society and mantience of power.

As Regan put it..."New World Order".

[Se7en]

Btw, Syria obviously a guilty country of many of those allegations...but they did mention a valuable point about Israel's holding of WMD

You're an Anti-Semite.

Sorry, someone has to fill in for HordeKing.

Seriously, though, if you can't see the difference between Syria having WMD and Israel having WMD, than you sir, frankly, scare me deeply.

<img border="0" src="http://Se7enRFNet.homestead.com/files/se7en.jpg" width="300" height="100">

I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

"I was here before the oceans turned black with life, and when the deserts are white with death I will remain."
---Saint Iago

[FiveB247]

Thanks Seven...I do hate everyone equally though.

There is a difference between Syria and Israel. One is a terror threat that houses certain terrorist groups...so we deem them enemy and a threat. Israel is our ally in which we ignore many of their human rights abuses and actions which many of the times are against what America asks of them. They defy us as well. The US will clearly leave Israel with their WMD and disarm other Middle Eastern nations who don't fit their mold for servituity. Like I've said previously, The US policies in the Middle East are hypocritical and unbalanced.

[El Mudo]

after syria, iran will be next...



Not likely. The Mullahs are losing control over there rapidly, there are protests every day. I think that goverment will fall eventually, not with our troops as support, but certainly with our resources and money.

I think i once heard someone say "Brave men talk about taking Baghdad, but real men talk about taking Tehran".

EDIT: It would also be a NIGHTMARE to invade Iran anyway, with all those mountains. And if the media went crazy over all the casualties we had in Iraq, the NY Times and others will shit the bed if we get rocked in the mountains..

....Garry Owen....

This message was edited by El Mudo on 4-14-03 @ 3:21 PM

[Bergalad]

The US will clearly leave Israel with their WMD and disarm other Middle Eastern nations who don't fit their mold for servituity.

The next time you see a Jewish suicide bomber, be sure to let me know, alright?

[FatTony]

See this is what is scary. We are going after every other country in the world except for North Korea. The only country who has come out and said "Yes, we have WoMD and we will use them". What aboot North Korea?

<IMG SRC="http://hometown.aol.com/antandone/image1.jpg" WIDTH=300 HEIGHT=100>

"They always win in the end."

[IrishAlkey]

Beware the suicide Pu Pu Platter!

<center>http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/alkey2.gif</center><marquee><font color=red size=4>2%</font></marquee>

[GaryWyze]

The US policies in the Middle East are hypocritical and unbalanced.

<font color=purple>You're right. We invaded Iraq, and have left Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, the Arafat controlled West Bank and other farm teams for terror unscathed.

Here's hoping we right that wrong real soon.

Trying to draw a comparison between Israel and the rest of the Middle East is beyond stupid.

They've never been the agressor in any conflict, have been steadfast in their support of all U.S. interest, even to the point where they re-defined the term "taking one for the team" by allowing Saddam to fire missles into its civilian population without retaliating, and perhaps most importantly of all, bring some normalcy to a region where women are murdered for showing too much ankel and children are taught to kill in state sponsored schools.

But I assume you know this already and are just playing Saddam Advocate. Because if not, I must ask you to leave this glorious country of ours and go live with your arab brethren.

<center>http://czm.racknine.net/images/krustysig.jpg

Much thanks to CZM for the killer sig

>>Fuck YERDADDY, Free Our POWs<<

[Butters]

NO we need to attack Yemen they can't even make an original name they just copied Omen like its some kind of high school test

butters: 1 part insane, 1 part crazy, 1 part stupid, and 1 part eggs (salt optional)

[TheMojoPin]

As for their point about Israel having W of M D, so do we. But until such time that either of us start to harbor terrorist or send soldiers to fight for Saddam Hussein, I fail to see the relevance.

On a somewhat related side note, mere months before the invasion of Kuwait, the Iraqi government offered to allow US (Not UN) weapon inspectors free reign at their chemical/bio WMD's as long as the US ceased to support Israel's nuclear development and dismantled it. We said "no thanks!" Regardless of the fact that our support of Israel's nuclear development was technically made "illegal" by a bill we passed in the 70's agreeing with Russia and the other nuclear powers not to support or aid any nation that DIDN'T have nukes at that point in their development. Oh well. It's one to grow on...

Fuck, I need to find out what the bill/treaty/whatever was, because I don't think ANY of the countries that signed it stuck by it...

But FiveB, you've got a weird Israel jones going on...I agree that they get a "free pass" too often on certain events and issues because they are our buddies, but the not-so-subtle hints that there isn't much of a difference between them and the tactics, governments and social environment of the Arab nations around them is a tad nutty and overzealous...

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[FiveB247]

I never tried to compare Israel to the other rogue and terror states in the Middle East. But I did mention the fact that they do hold them. The US is now apparanetly picking and choosing who can hold such items. Does Israel not already have economic and military backing by the US? So then why the need for nuclear programs, WMD and chemical weapons? Is it fair to remove many other nations of their weapons and not remove all of them? It gives Arab nations another reason to hate America for hypocritical policies and actions. It's fairly obvious the US won't attempt or be successful in removing WMD from all nations of the world. That so leaves us at the ladder of the perspective, That the US is picking and choosing whom may hold certain weapons and hold certain policies all according to what the US finds appropriate. It is fairly obvious many of these nations in the Middle East are somewhat involved or house terrorists...but not a one of them can touch US soil nor do they even want to. Their target is Israel. Not the US.

[travis151]

Mojo ,
I'm not sure but I think it was a Treaty between USSR and USA called S.A.L.T. treaty but as far as I remember neither side followed the treaty basically it was just for show until S.A.L.T. 2.

Red Sox=More Better

[TheMojoPin]

I'm not sure but I think it was a Treaty between USSR and USA called S.A.L.T. treaty but as far as I remember neither side followed the treaty basically it was just for show until S.A.L.T. 2.

I wasn't sure if it was SALT, so I didn't assume...but I want to say the signing I'm thinking of occured around '77 or so...SALT I was under Nixon, right? When was SALT II?

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[LiquidCourage]

the SALT agreements were pretty stupid.
They didn't restrict the actual nuclear weapons themselves, just the the planes, subs, and launchers that would fire/drop them.

[furie]

http://w1.182.telia.com/~u18203287/music/next.jpg

<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/surfer2.jpg" width=300 height=100>

[curtoid]

This is more smoke and mirrors - Syria (which voted in favor of last November's U.N.
Security Council resolution demanding Iraq disarm itself of weapons of mass
destruction) is not party to international convention banning chemical weapons, and
so is under no legal constraint not to have them.

I don't know why this administration continues to do this! They have legit reasons to
lambaste Syria, with them backing Hamas and Hizbollahÿand letting in the rouge Iraqis,
but they have to (again) start up with bullshit.

That pinhead Fleisher did this on 9/11, when he made the bogus claim that the
American Airlines that hit the Pentagon actually circled Washington (!) before doubling
back and slamming into the Pentagon - all as an excuse for what the President didn't
come directly back to Washington.

The plane never circled the district- it made a direct path right down 395-North; it
actually circled Springfield, to bring it in at a lower level. It was an out and out lie that
didn't need to be made, because even the biggest Bush haters would have
understood why he didn't make a direct path back to DC; what with unaccounted for
airliners out there! They continued to lie about it after it, without ever providing
proof...

errrr....this was about Syria, right?

Sorry.

Boo! Syria Bad!!!!

Pinheads GOOD!

Gabba! Gabba! Hey!

[The Jays]

That pinhead Fleisher did this on 9/11, when he made the bogus claim that the
American Airlines that hit the Pentagon actually circled Washington (!) before doubling
back and slamming into the Pentagon - all as an excuse for what the President didn't
come directly back to Washington.

The plane never circled the district- it made a direct path right down 395-North: it
actually circled Springfield, to bring it in at a lower level. It was an out and out lie that
didn't need to be made, because even the biggest Bush haters would have
understood why he didn't make a direct path back to DC: what with unaccounted for
airliners out there! They continued to lie about it after it, without ever providing
proof...



....... what the fuck are you talking about?

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> Fuck what you heard.</font>
<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> That cab has a dent in it.</font> [center]
[center]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/morecoolestgroup/files/house.gif

[Se7en]

I hardly know what KOP is ever talking about, and for that I'm thankful.

There is a difference between Syria and Israel. One is a terror threat that houses certain terrorist groups...so we deem them enemy and a threat. Israel is our ally in which we ignore many of their human rights abuses and actions which many of the times are against what America asks of them. They defy us as well. The US will clearly leave Israel with their WMD and disarm other Middle Eastern nations who don't fit their mold for servituity. Like I've said previously, The US policies in the Middle East are hypocritical and unbalanced.


I am NOT going to get into some sort of Israel debate with you, or anyone else.

I'm going to say this, and it will be my final word on that subject - if someone else is willing to engage into a debate with you over the topic, and turn this thread away from its meaning and into a Israel-good / Israel-bad thread, that's their business - our policy towards Israel and their WMD is not nearly as hypocritical as you imply. The key difference is this: Israel is responsible enough to NOT use their WMD, at the LEAST, unless they are facing some sort of attack upon THEM.

Syria, and a good handful (if not more) of the Arab nations over there are fucking insane enough to use them if one of their enemies looks at them funny.

That's the bare-bones difference. Israel is responsible enough to handle the weapons. The other nations, Syria included, are not. They're likely to use them for purposes OTHER than defense, or sell / give them to other rogue nations or any one of the multiple terrorist groups that they fund.

<img border="0" src="http://Se7enRFNet.homestead.com/files/se7en.jpg" width="300" height="100">

I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

"I was here before the oceans turned black with life, and when the deserts are white with death I will remain."
---Saint Iago

[FiveB247]

I'm going to say this, and it will be my final word on that subject - if someone else is willing to engage into a debate with you over the topic, and turn this thread away from its meaning and into a Israel-good / Israel-bad thread, that's their business - our policy towards Israel and their WMD is not nearly as hypocritical as you imply. The key difference is this: Israel is responsible enough to NOT use their WMD, at the LEAST, unless they are facing some sort of attack upon THEM.

Syria, and a good handful (if not more) of the Arab nations over there are fucking insane enough to use them if one of their enemies looks at them funny.

That's the bare-bones difference. Israel is responsible enough to handle the weapons. The other nations, Syria included, are not. They're likely to use them for purposes OTHER than defense, or sell / give them to other rogue nations or any one of the multiple terrorist groups that they fund.

Syria isn't as responsible as China, India, Pakistan, Iran, North Korea...etc..(to name a few).

Oh wait..that wouldn't be the US picking and choosing their 'threats' and 'enemies' compared to aligning to nations it wouldn't deem in the national interest for attack? Now would it? You think we'll be invading North Korea? They are a hostile nation, sell weapons to every and anyone as well as are ignoring treaties and act aggressive. So where's the US policy on that? Oh wait...we are actually trying to remedy things via aid packages and diplomacy. Very across the board with policies...right?

Ps...I didn't know what KOP was saying either..haha

[Shecky]

After THE ROCK it'll probably be Triple H or Poppa Pump....oh my bad I thought the Who's next meant...forget it.

Syria, France, Germany, Canada, and Columbia

PRAY FOR THE BRAVE ONES!!!!

Later On,
SHECKY

[HBox]

I'm not really sure why anyone has chemical weapons. Its pretty much considered an atrocity if they're used for any reason. Hell, we were about to crucify the Iraqis for using them, but if things get bad enough, Israel or anyone else would be justified in using them? I don't get it. I don't see why we have them. I mean, when you have a nuclear arsenal of thousands, isn't that enough of a deterrent? But that's just my opinion.

[TheMojoPin]

That pinhead Fleisher did this on 9/11, when he made the bogus claim that the
American Airlines that hit the Pentagon actually circled Washington (!) before doubling
back and slamming into the Pentagon - all as an excuse for what the President didn't
come directly back to Washington.

The plane never circled the district- it made a direct path right down 395-North: it
actually circled Springfield, to bring it in at a lower level. It was an out and out lie that
didn't need to be made, because even the biggest Bush haters would have
understood why he didn't make a direct path back to DC: what with unaccounted for
airliners out there! They continued to lie about it after it, without ever providing
proof...

What th-?!?

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[curtoid]

Christ, people, get a fucking sense of humor.

I KNOW I went way off topic there - I even said as much - and even laughed at myself
for doing it.

The reason I didn't delete that portion was because (a) I do believe Ari has a history
of being a lying sack of sh!t, but more importantly (b) I enjoyed illustrating how people
can chase rabbits into the woods and get off topic on these forums.

Sorry I wasn't more clear!

Sheeesh...next time I will add some trendy emoticons to the punctuation. That will
make it kewl!

[K:)P]








This message was edited by KOP on 4-15-03 @ 4:39 PM

[TheMojoPin]

I still don't get it.

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[travis151]

Nobody is next!! The American government is threatening the Syrians. Has anybody here learned anything from these past few weeks. It would make no sense if the U.S. attacked Syria do you honestly believe we would invade Syria? The U.S. has shown we can DESTROY a hostile government if we wanted to. Just wonder what we could of done to Iraq if we didn't care about the civilians there would be no doubt the Iraq war would of been over in a week. If anybody bothered to read Why the World hates America its because they fear Our POWER! Start reading ! No not internet Left/Right websites but books from authors around the world. Go to the libary its free. What our government has done in Iraq will be looked on for years, yes its ambisous but possible. Look what happen after World War 2, Japan was turned into a great country and other Asian countries saw how Japan changed and followed the same path. So why not the Middle East? Iraq with Reform and Order could be the next Hong Kong. EDUCATION will create PEACE in the Middle East. Finally we have a President who wanted to change the world and had the BALLS to do it, Bush has a great team working with him and I believe that Iraq will become one of the U.S. greatest allies. One last thing pick and choose? Only the countries who harbor terroists chooses their fates. Read the news North Korea wants to "TALK" with us now. Wonder why?

Red Sox=More Better

[silera]

I wish I could be as optimistic as you Travis. While you note Japan as an example of the good our government can do, I'll point you to Latin American countries that have only suffered at the hands of American interference.

Castro was supported by the US. Pinochet, Trujillo, Noriega, and the list goes on. Unfortunately, I am skeptical of our intentions in Iraq and have been since the whole process began. Our actions thus far don't convince me any further, considering our forces are busy guarding the oil ministries while the national museum was looted and the library was burned to the ground.

I'll pose this question, should an occupying force enter the US, and protect the National Reserve building as an example, and allow looters to burn our National Archives ( I forget what its called), allowing the Declaration of Independance to be destroyed, would we feel that occupying force was here for our benefit?

This war legitimized the heretofor unheard of notion of "preemptive action." Syria can be next. I only wonder if history will prove that our government's actions where indeed honorable.


<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=FBF2F7>

[Bergalad]

Our actions thus far don't convince me any further, considering our forces are busy guarding the oil ministries while the national museum was looted and the library was burned to the ground.

Can you find anything else to nitpick about? We can't even stop our own citizens from looting and burning after winning a sports championship, so how are we to criticize the Iraqis for destroying some of the reminders of their oppressive history? Let's have some perspective here.

[TooCute]

So, uh, where is the money for this "next" war coming from?

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

[Doomstone]

From tax dollars of course!

What, GW doesn't have a money tree?

[TheMojoPin]

so how are we to criticize the Iraqis for destroying some of the reminders of their oppressive history?

Yeah, except it's going a few thousand years PAST that oppressive history.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030415/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_war_us_museum_030415021936

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Bergalad]

Yeah, except it's going a few thousand years PAST that oppressive history

Seriously, if they want to wreck their shit, who really cares? Yes, it's an ancient area with many neat-o artifacts, but they don't help the Iraqi people one bit. The oil wells, the dams, the electrical grid- those are the things that the Iraqis needed, not chipped pottery. What a stupid thing to bash the US about.

[silera]

If they want to wreck their oil wells we care.

These "neat-o" artifacts are our history as well.

I suppose it's nitpicking to want to preserve anything that's not American.

You failed to see the point. If we are to redeem ourselves and negate the belief that the US is trying to colonize, or occupy the region, we should take pro active steps to respect their culture and their civilization as well as their oil reserves.

Until you realize that Iraqi's and middle easterners as a whole have very real and viable reasons for not wanting us there, you won't understand the grave risk and danger we are placing ourselves in.



<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=FBF2F7>

[TheMojoPin]

Wait, where the hell did I bash the US? What th-?!?

I just think that if we're there to help people, this seems like an easy thing to stop. They want to bust up statues of Saddam? Go right ahead. They're not only looting the museums, but banks as well. Is it that hard to put a tank and a few fully armed troops on front of IMPORTANT institutions like this? It's not called the friggin' "cradle of civilization" for kicks!

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."





This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-16-03 @ 1:27 AM

[TooCute]

. The oil wells, the dams, the electrical grid- those are the things that the Iraqis needed, not chipped pottery.

I suppose you think the Declaration of Independence is just a tattered scrap of paper and that ConEd is more important to us?

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

[Bergalad]

Again, we can't stop our own citizens from looting and burning after a football game. The coalition cracked down on the Iraqi looting as soon as they could. Saying the US doesn't care about Iraqi heritage is idiotic. If we didn't care about it, we would have bombed the museum along with every mosque in Iraq.

[silera]

We did not stop the looting as soon as possible. Soldiers stood by as the looting occurred and were given orders to do nothing. As the national library was on fire, the military was informed and did not investigate or attempt to stop the fire.

I am not saying that our actions were purposeful. I am saying that our actions speak louder than our rhetoric.




<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=FBF2F7>

[TheMojoPin]

Again, we can't stop our own citizens from looting and burning after a football game.

Yeah, but now we've got severel hundred thousand fully armed troops in the 'hood. Just a wee bit of a difference. Come on, we essentially marched through the Iraqi army, but we can't stop a few thousand looters? Alright then.

And I never said the US doesn't care about Iraqi heritage. I was asking whether it would be that difficult to try and keep the people you're trying to set up with a STABLE society, economy and government from going apeshit in their own cities, and essentially causing themselves more damage down the line. Are we there for show or for the real deal? Who's in charge? Where's my coat? What's the word? Who's on first?!?

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Doomstone]

We'll get our oil though, right?

Oops...did I say the "O" word?

[Bergalad]

I can't refute your comments that soldiers watched and did nothing, nor can I agree with it. I haven't seen a real report that says with accuracy what happened. Actions do speak louder than words, and the article Mojo linked to says:
Powell said Washington would work with others "not only secure the facility, but to recover that which has been taken and also to participate in restoring that which has been broken.
Deputy State Department spokesman Philip Reeker said US officials had been in contact with the international police agency Interpol to locate and return stolen objects before they turned up in the thriving global black market for such items.
Powell said he had spoken Monday with Greek Foreign Minister George Papandreou, whose country holds the rotating presidency of the European Union, about possible ways to protect Iraq's cultural heritage.
And, he said US officials had been in touch with the United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Organization to explore steps that could be taken.
Maybe we messed up at the start, but that seems like we are trying to make ammends. In MOUT actions, there are only so many things you can do at one time, and protecting the museum was not the highest on that list. If they could have stopped the looting right away, I am fairly confident (knowing how soldiers are trained) they would have stopped it. I think they are taking the heritage of Iraq seriously and shouldn't be demonized for a few oversights.

[TooCute]

I can't refute your comments that soldiers watched and did nothing, nor can I agree with it. I haven't seen a real report that says with accuracy what happened.
A couple of days ago a reporter asked about this at one of those daily centcomm briefings. I can't quote Gen. Brooks exactly, but to paraphrase, he said "American soldiers have been ordered not to interfere. We don't want to risk on of them taking a bullet to stop looters and vandalism." Or to protect some "chipped pottery" I guess.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

[Captain Stubing]

You failed to see the point. If we are to redeem ourselves and negate the belief that the US is trying to colonize, or occupy the region, we should take pro active steps to respect their culture and their civilization as well as their oil reserves.

Some would say that the point is that no matter what we do we cannot 'redeem ourselves' in the eyes of many abroad or domestically.....if you don't like the current administration and/or you tend to see any proactive military action as 'bullying' 'terrorizing' etc then, regardless of what steps we take to not seem like the 800 lb gorilla, people won't accept it. How are you supposed to pursue a policy objective that will satify everybody?? In a way that seems 'fair' to everybody???? It is impossible....nor is it wise to even try.

As for the protection of artifacts vice oil......let's review.......oil = money, money = rebuilding the country and giving it international standing. The artifacts? Let's be honest....Saddam wasn't exactly a huge proponant of the social sciences, historical or current. How much support was there for archeology while he was in power, and who was bitching about the potential losses of data from ancient Mesopotamian's during his reign????

Fezaesthesia - Prognosis poor...

[TooCute]

As for the protection of artifacts vice oil......let's review.......oil = money, money = rebuilding the country and giving it international standing.
1. We are perfectly capable of protecting both the oil rigs and the artifacts.
2. I reiterate, these artifacts are every bit as important - if not more so, as some of them are historical to a far larger part of the world - as things like the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are to us. Would you feel comfortable letting looters vandalize the library of Congress because it wasn't worth having someone take a bullet to protect it?

The artifacts? Let's be honest....Saddam wasn't exactly a huge proponant of the social sciences, historical or current. How much support was there for archeology while he was in power, and who was bitching about the potential losses of data from ancient Mesopotamian's during his reign????


He didn't need to support archaeology while he was in power. These things were in the museum, period, whether Saddam cared about them or not. Plenty of people were "bitching" about his wanton destruction of archaeological and environmentally important sites, but at the time the US military wasn't there to do anything about it. They are now. It seems incredibly arrogant, ignorant and american (and I mean that in the bad, insulting, "ignorant american who doesn't give a shit about the rest of the world" way) to call these important cultural artifacts "chipped pottery.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

[FiveB247]

Here's an article all about many of the issues mentioned (mostly Soldiers becoming Policemen). In many ways, I believe, nation building includes these ideas. You can't just hand independence to a nation (especially with various opposing groups) and expect no civil unrest. If we are to rebuild Iraq as the US government says we will, peace and stability are included. We are seeing some of the same problems in Afganistan (and that is a good reference on how things could/ couldn't go).

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20021101faessay9997/rachel-bronson/when-soldiers-become-cops.html?

[Captain Stubing]

1. We are perfectly capable of protecting both the oil rigs and the artifacts

1. Whether we we or were not wasn't my point.
2. You don't KNOW this......it's an assertion vice a fact so you'll excuse me if I negate the point by saying 'No, no we were not perfectly capable of protecting both'.
2.a. If I'm wrong about this and this point has been stated by someone in the military heirachy over in Iraq please provide the information.

2. I reiterate, these artifacts are every bit as important - if not more so, as some of them are historical to a far larger part of the world - as things like the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are to us. Would you feel comfortable letting looters vandalize the library of Congress because it wasn't worth having someone take a bullet to protect it?

I wouldn't be so naive to expect someone from ANOTHER COUNTRY to save important U.S. documents. Seems rather Pollyann'ish to me.......

Fezaesthesia - Prognosis poor...

[silera]

I wouldn't be so naive to expect someone from ANOTHER COUNTRY to save important U.S. documents. Seems rather Pollyann'ish to me.......

That's the point. Why are we so naive to assume that our government is in Iraq for only noble reasons. It's not. It purports to be, but our invasion was not for Iraq's benefit. It was for our benefit.

Supporters of this war have repeatedly stated that it will only be good for Iraqi's and I think that is naive to assume as well.



<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=FBF2F7>

[FiveB247]

Silera, you laid down the lasso...and he stepped right into it..hehe

He's hanging upside down from a tree right now..hehe

[TheMojoPin]

That's not cool, FiveB.

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[FiveB247]

Just a little joke Mojo. :)

[A.J.]

We have a very good opportunity here to "make nice" with Iran if we can provide them with information on Iranian POW/MIAs from the 1980-88 war with Iraq.

Hopefully this can be a first step in restarting the trend of closer cooperation that began several years ago.

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">

A Skidmark production.

http://www.internerd.com/frink.retired/frinkv.2/stuff/littlepc.gif

[Bergalad]

It seems incredibly arrogant, ignorant and american (and I mean that in the bad, insulting, "ignorant american who doesn't give a shit about the rest of the world" way) to call these important cultural artifacts "chipped pottery.
Obviously a shot at me. So tell me then Too Cute, what have these "artifacts" done for you? Have they affected your life in any way? The Constitution sure has, as has the Magna Carta. Hell, we servicemembers "swear to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic". You're aching to find the US at fault at something with regards to Iraq, and it is sad that the biggest complaint you can muster is that we didn't stop Iraqis from stealing their own cultural works, works which you have never seen, would never have seen, and have never once made any impact on your life. Still you are willing to sacrifice the US military to protect them. Very noble.

[TheMojoPin]

Berg, it's just indicative of the many possibilities we'll let slip by that in the end will ultimately buy us a lot of cred and power with not only the Iraqi people, but also others in the region and around the world and question what we'll ultimately accomplish. It may seem like a "little" thing, but how many more of these "little" things are going to pile up before it's a huge mess? Quit playing the goddamn patriot game. Nobody said this was the "biggest complaint" we could find...it's just one of many.

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

Here, here's an excellent article that discusses why allowing this kind of anarchy to run rampant is going to be bad for bouth America AND Iraq down the line.

YES, it's just more "pinko lies" from the Washington Post, and yes, like the NY Post, you need to proivde a little info before reading the article, but it's worth it.

Government offices that were spared in the bombing -- so they
could become part of a peacetime infrastructure -- have been
pillaged since the regime fell. Some of the most fundamental
ingredients of nation-building, ranging from pencils and paper
to computers, desks, telephones and official records, were
carried out through back doors while U.S. and British troops
idled nearby. Asked about the anarchy, a British military
spokesman in Iraq replied, "Do I look to you like I'm a
policeman?" His statement reflected the military's disdain for
noncombat operations.

And before anyone jumps on this, the IMPORTANT part of this is NOT the so-called "negative" light the soldier is painted in. Boo-hoo.

The looting is likely just a new chapter in the mafia state
forged by Saddam. As in many other capitals taken over by
foreign forces in past decades -- in Africa, Latin America and
the Balkans -- opportunistic looting is but a short step away
from roving gangs and eventually organized criminal groups that
work hand-in-glove with corrupt politicians and ideological
extremists. In Panama City in 1989, for example, a looting spree
lasted for five days after the arrival of occupying U.S. troops,
causing billions of dollars in damage and gravely setting back
reconstruction efforts. In Sarajevo in 1995, exiting Serbs
systematically looted and burned a major suburb while U.S. and
allied forces stood by; it remains a tense ghetto. Widespread
reprisals against Serbs after the arrival of NATO forces in
Kosovo in 1999 provoked a mass exodus to refugee camps in Serbia
that exist to this day.

Nobody learning a lesson from history? Oh, there's a shocker.

"We've been through this so many times," says Robert M. Perito,
a former director of the State Department's Office of Criminal
Justice and the author of two books about policing in
post-conflict states. "You're dealing with criminalized states,
with people engaged in 'patriotic smuggling.' These people don't
go away" just because a new regime is in place.

Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage last week sought to
explain the administration's optimism about a speedy
reconstruction. Iraq, he said, "is not a failed state like
Afghanistan, it's not a new state like East Timor, and it's not
a non-state like Kosovo. So it will have its own unique
attributes," including a well-educated populace and an
extensive, functioning bureaucracy.

But this also means that Iraq is not a blank slate on which
America can readily inscribe Western democratic values; it is
instead a "government mafia"-run state that knows only how to
practice official favoritism. Corruption in Iraq is endemic, the
State Department has repeatedly said, and the nation's oil
wealth has served largely to enrich Saddam, his family and Baath
Party loyalists. This underground economic system functioned
reasonably well -- by some estimates it diverted as much as $2.6
billion a year to the family's control -- because thousands of
Iraqis participated in it and benefited from it. For years,
consumer goods, cigarettes and agricultural produce have been
mostly bought and sold on Iraq's black market. So even after the
country has been "de-Baathized," this ingrained culture of
smuggling and illicit profiteering will be extremely difficult
to root out.

So if the troops aren't suppsoed to "act as police officers" over there...who is?!?

[quote]In Iraq, no force is ready to take up the job of ensuring law
and order. "The U.S. won't be a police force," Brig. Gen.
Vincent Brooks of the U.S. Central Command told reporters
Friday. Plans have been made in Washington to restructure the
Shurta, Iraq'

[TooCute]

Obviously a shot at me. So tell me then Too Cute, what have these "artifacts" done for you? Have they affected your life in any way? The Constitution sure has, as has the Magna Carta. Hell, we servicemembers "swear to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".
1. Whether they have done anything for me, personally, is irrelevant.
2. That said, they damn well have "done something " for me. The artifacts that were in this museum dated back to Mesopotamia, which, as you'll recall you probably learned in middle school social studies class, was the world's first civilization. I think that is pretty relevant to me, and you, and every single other "civilized" person in the world. This is the culture that eventually shaped the teachings of the bible and western cultures.
3. The US State Department asserted before this war that the US would follow the rules of the Hague Convention. We have clearly failed at this. (If you don't know what the Hague Convention is, learn about it here:http://www.unesco.org/culture/laws/hague/html_eng/page1.shtml
You're aching to find the US at fault at something with regards to Iraq, and it is sad that the biggest complaint you can muster is that we didn't stop Iraqis from stealing their own cultural works,
This is clearly not the biggest complaint I can muster. Is this the reason that I object to the war? Clearly not. Is it another reason that the war makes me sad and nervous? You bet.

works which you have never seen, would never have seen, and have never once made any impact on your life.
To the contrary, most history textbooks today display photos of the Mesopotamian artifacts that were in that museum. Do you mean that I would never have seen them in real life? I've never seen the Declaration of Independence in real life, either. So what? and as I've mentioned, in a way, they've probably made MORE of an impact on my life than any artifact of US history. Before you jump on me and interpret that as a somehow anti-American statement, understand that this does not mean that they hold more value to me, as an American. But without Mesopotamia, there is no western civilization. Without wetern civilization, no US. So yes. They're important, and they have influenced my life. Yours, too.

Still you are willing to sacrifice the US military to protect them. Very noble.
The US military is willing to sacrifice itself to give the Iraqi people an opportunity to rebuild its government in a freely determine manner. This new government isn't going to have a chance in hell if people are running around and looting and vandalizing. Seemingly small things can have huge impacts on the way people behave.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

[TheMojoPin]

And here's another article that very clearly demonstrates how our unwillingness to play "cop" in a situation of our own making can harm us down the line.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,442342,00.html

Thursday, Apr. 10, 2003
What a Shiite Stabbing Says About Post-Saddam Perils
Ayatollah Abdul Majid al-Khoei, a key U.S. ally in southern Iraq
is murdered, and the power struggle intensifies
By TONY KARON

The power struggle among Iraqis to fill the vacuum left by the
collapse of Saddam Hussein's regime may have claimed its first
victim Thursday when Ayatollah Abdul Majid al-Khoei was stabbed
to death by unknown assailants inside the Imam Ali Mosque,
Shiite Islam's holiest shrine, in the city of An Najaf.
According to press reports, al-Khoei was killed during a meeting
with a rival cleric backed by Saddam's regime over control of
the shrine. The reports said al-Khoei had gone to the aid of the
regime-backed cleric who had been attacked by a crowd inside the
mosque, and both men were stabbed in the ensuing melee. The
killing couldn't have come at a more sensitive moment in the
battle for political and religious influence over Iraq's Shiite
Muslim majority, and it reflects some of the dangers confronting
coalition forces seeking to stabilize post-Saddam Iraq.

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-16-03 @ 3:34 PM

[Bergalad]

Let's make this a bigger issue than it is, I guess that's the plan. This isn't the topic of this thread even, so I'll move on after this. You make it out like the US failed in the war because they couldn't protect some museum pieces. I know about the Fertile Crescent Too Cute, and know how events there shaped today. Yippie. They served their purpose and now collect dust in a museum. To listen to a few of you one would think we took the stuff ourselves. Remember it was Iraqi citizens who took the items, and Iraqi police could have stopped them too. You're blaming one party (the US) for another party's (Iraqis) actions. Try pointing your finger at the guys who stole the stuff, not the ones who are trying to get it back.

[The Jays]

... How do we stop them from looting? By pointing guns at the Iraqi citizens? Then we would have people complaining that we are targeting Iraqi citizens...

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> Fuck what you heard.</font>
<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> That cab has a dent in it.</font> [center]
[center]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/morecoolestgroup/files/house.gif

[high fly]

Good thing that they're apparently running out of things to loot.
By the way, I'm still sticking to my prediction that Iraq will turn into a West Bank sort of situation with our guys getting car bombed, sniped at, suicide bombed, etc.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[The Jays]

By the way, I'm still sticking to my prediction that Iraq will turn into a West Bank sort of situation with our guys getting car bombed, sniped at, suicide bombed, etc.


PHEW! For a minute there, I thought you were gonna backpeddle and say something positive. Way to stick to your guns, buddy.

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> Fuck what you heard.</font>
<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> That cab has a dent in it.</font> [center]
[center]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/morecoolestgroup/files/house.gif

[TheMojoPin]

... How do we stop them from looting? By pointing guns at the Iraqi citizens? Then we would have people complaining that we are targeting Iraqi citizens...

I doubt they'd be shooting them left and right. And I'm no fool that thinks war can be fought without civilian casualities. In the long run, a few dead Iraqi looters would have done far less hamr than the damage that's being inflicted now.

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

Try pointing your finger at the guys who stole the stuff, not the ones who are trying to get it back.

Read the articles. The looting is just a small problem that's indicative of a much, MUCH larger issue.

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Lummox]

Our armed forces are trained to kill people and break stuff.... not be policemen. That would require them to learn p.r. skills, and quite frankly, I think that time is better spent making them more efficient and accurate killers and breakers of stuff.


Everybody get outta here there's a lobster loose!

[The Jays]

I doubt they'd be shooting them left and right. And I'm no fool that thinks war can be fought without civilian casualities. In the long run, a few dead Iraqi looters would have done far less hamr than the damage that's being inflicted now.


People would be complaining either way. Either we don't harass the Iraqis and let them loot, or we aim guns in their faces and arrest them.

In an alternate universe, where the troops were ordered to stop looting, a thread would have been started stating the brutish tactics of our forces aiming guns at and threatening civilians for merely stealing....

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> Fuck what you heard.</font>
<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> That cab has a dent in it.</font> [center]
[center]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/morecoolestgroup/files/house.gif

[TheMojoPin]

Alright, so in EITHER "reality", exactly HOW is a stable democratic government going to be established in Iraq?

I'm no "hippie" who thinks the troops themselves cause nothing but death and destruction, and I for one only had issues with the people calling the shots and their reasoning behind this war. Our troops are fully capable of stopping what's happening right now without going out of control (Sure, there will always be some dipshits who think that that would be "attacking the innocents", but they think that we should "ban" war, too), yet they have been specifically told not to.

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-16-03 @ 11:14 PM

[TooCute]

hey hey hey Mojo quit it with all your indicative of larger problem tipping point junk!! I'm just objecting to arrogant americans saying that the artifacts are useless and meaningless. Usually this board amuses me, but in this case I genuinely got mad. How fucking uncivilized, uneducated, ignorant, arrogant, unrefined and I can't even think of any other words to call the artifacts in the National Museum in Baghdad useless chipped pottery - to go so far as to suggest that it isn't as important as American artifacts?! It is so hard for me to fathom that such stereotypical americans exist outside of the midwest... but I guess that that's why the sterotype exists. Collecting dust yippee my ass. That is outrageous - nevermind the war, police, whatever the fuck else anyone wants to argue fruitlessly over - this is the stupidest fucking thing I have heard in a long time. Do you people REALLY believe that these artifacts are irrelevant to our culture and therefore useless or are you just saying it because you don't want to take back your statements?

I know about the Fertile Crescent Too Cute, and know how events there shaped today. Yippie. They served their purpose and now collect dust in a museum.
Same with the Declaration of Independence.

And I still haven't heard mention of the Hague Convention (I mean, we took the Geneva convention so seriously...)



<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

This message was edited by TooCute on 4-16-03 @ 11:22 PM

[Bergalad]

arrogant americans...fucking uncivilized, uneducated, ignorant, arrogant, unrefined
More attacks at me. Very nice.
It is so hard for me to fathom that such stereotypical americans exist outside of the midwest
So the midwest is full of idiots you are saying? No wonder East Coasters are reviled. And you call me arrogant.
Do you people REALLY believe that these artifacts are irrelevant to our culture and therefore useless or are you just saying it because you don't want to take back your statements
Take back my statements? Not a chance. I reassert those items from that museum don't mean a damn thing to anyone other than historians and pie-eyed message board posters. Not a single piece of that collection can feed or clothe or house a single Iraqi. The US military has priorities to keep Iraq running, and stoping Iraqi citizens from damaging their own history was not high on that list. You'ed be screaming just as vociferously as you are now if we would have killed all those looters, just as the press is doing today with the bank robbing over there. The US can't win either way with you in regards to this war. At least Mojo is somewhat more coherent in his discussion that the looting is indicative of a larger (and expected) problem there. You are wrapped up instead with this museum thing that, and let's be very realistic, doesn't really mean a thing to the future of anyone. Are the items important historically? Yes. Would it have been good to secure them? Yes. Are they necessary for the nation of Iraq to function? No. Let's move on then. Oh yeah...
this is the stupidest fucking thing I have heard in a long time
If that's the case then I suggest you either get out more often or read some of your own posts.

[silera]

I reassert those items from that museum don't mean a damn thing to anyone other than historians and pie-eyed message board posters. Not a single piece of that collection can feed or clothe or house a single Iraqi.

If your house was burning down, I assume you'd go in for your replaceable money and valuables and leave your photo albums behind.

I'm of the sentiment that we need to embrace, respect, and preserve our history in order to learn more about our present.



<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=FBF2F7>

[TooCute]

You are wrapped up instead with this museum thing that, and let's be very realistic, doesn't really mean a thing to the future of anyone.

I thought I was very clear that I was not "wrapped up" in this - simply that it was the only thing in this thread that I'm taking extreme issue with, outside of the context of the war. This has nothing to do with whether we could or could not protect them. You're right. Mojo has that covered. I should start

No, I don't suppose they mean a thing to the future of anyone. After all, we've got photos of them, right, so if we actually want to learn about the first civilization (which isn't important to us) we can just look at the photos? We've got photos of all the cultural artifacts in the American Museum of Natural History, too... no, I suppose none of the animals and plants there are worth anything, either. Nor the Met or the Moma for that matter. We should even tear down the Smithsonian... actually... wait... you know how there are all these people at state universities studying things like history, art, language, music, biology, math... none of that means anything and is useless to us and our future. I don't want my tax money paying for it. I'm going to chuck my camera out, too, cause you know, keeping a record of history isn't useful or important. I'm also going to stop traveling - why should I bother trying to see other cultures? They are useless to me.
Basecall Hall of Fame? Pointless. That's history and culture. Has no effect on our future. Library of Congress? Just as useless.

Stupid pottery.


Edit:

More attacks at me. Very nice.Not at you. all americans who think like you.


So the midwest is full of idiots you are saying? No wonder East Coasters are reviled. And you call me arrogant.
You're right. I was upset, and I shouldn't have said what I said, though I didn't say the midwest is full of idiots. I mean that the midwest is full of white americans to whom a minority is a novelty ("You orientals eat raw fish and dog, right?") and who largely do not live within driving distance of a museum or any sort of cultural center (like a diverse, multi-cultural university. Ever notice that most of the top schools in the country (the only exception I can think of off the top of my head is the University of Chicago) are in coastal states?). Not their fault, but the stereotype exists for a reason.
Not a single piece of that collection can feed or clothe or house a single Iraqi.
In the future when Iraq is hopefully more stable, the money coming from universities wishing to do reasearch and the tourists wishing to see the artifacts certainly would have.
The US military has priorities to keep Iraq running, and stoping Iraqi citizens from damaging their own history was not high on that list.
Again: small things (although I'm not sure that rampant looting and vandalism count as small) can have large effects. Consider how much crime in NYC went down after it started cracking down on subway car vandals and turnstile jumpers - it's a sort of "If I can't get away with something this small, how am I going to get away with something really serious?" effect.
And regardless of any of that, again, the Hague convention covers the US's responsibility as far as protecting cultural artifacts goes.
<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

This message was edited by TooCute on 4-17-03 @ 11:29 AM

[A.J.]

Basecall Hall of Fame? Pointless.


You monster!

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">

A Skidmark production.

http://www.internerd.com/frink.retired/frinkv.2/stuff/littlepc.gif

[FiveB247]

Too cute you are absolutely correct.

But don't you know we are 'Americanizing the World'. Our culture consists of telling foreigners to open their markets for consumption and free market values.

Like the Indians who roamed these lands before us, a trail of tears was layed down, burning and killing their heritage and culture; in justice for our culture to thrive.

[TheMojoPin]

pie-eyed message board posters.

"Ohhh, he think totem pole ALIVE!!!"

Leave the Eskimos alone, dammit!

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[A.J.]

And they trashed the Baghdad Zoo as well...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=573&ncid=573&e=1&u=/nm/20030417/od_nm/iraq_zoo_dc

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">

A Skidmark production.

http://www.internerd.com/frink.retired/frinkv.2/stuff/littlepc.gif

[FiveB247]

Who wants to loot a zoo? What would you even steal? Shirts that say 'I went to the Baghdad zoo and all I got was this stinkin shirt'.

Anyone want to go into the 'Bin Laden Bat Caves'?

[TooCute]

I'll bet that the zoo was looted for food.

EDIT: To steal food I mean not eat animals. Lots of meat and veggies I'm sure to feed the animals.


<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

This message was edited by TooCute on 4-18-03 @ 12:15 AM

[A.J.]

I know I have a problem: Watching all the TV reports of looting in Baghdad and all I could think of was "Animal House":

http://www.usatoday.com/life/photos/movies/animalh.jpg

"They took the fucking bar!"

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">

A Skidmark production.

http://www.internerd.com/frink.retired/frinkv.2/stuff/littlepc.gif

This message was edited by AJinDC on 4-17-03 @ 12:42 PM

[A.J.]

Bush's "cultural advisor" resigns over Iraqi museum flap:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45938-2003Apr17.html

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">

A Skidmark production.

http://www.internerd.com/frink.retired/frinkv.2/stuff/littlepc.gif

[silera]

That article made me happy.


<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=FBF2F7>

[IrishAlkey]

What an unpatriotic pussy...

<center>http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/alkey2.gif</center><marquee><font color=red size=4>2%</font></marquee>

[A.J.]

But...was the looting "planned"?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=540&e=4&u=/ap/20030417/ap_on_re_mi_ea/war_iraq_museums

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">

A Skidmark production.

http://www.internerd.com/frink.retired/frinkv.2/stuff/littlepc.gif

[silera]

I use red white and blue tampons.


<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=FBF2F7>

[IrishAlkey]

I use red white and blue tampons.


Reminds me of that joke: a red neck, an Irish guy and a smurf fall into a ditch...

<center>http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/alkey2.gif</center><marquee><font color=red size=4>2%</font></marquee>

[Captain Stubing]

But...was the looting "planned"

Doesn't matter.......the fact that our vast intelligence infastructure (along with the complicit negligence of our troops) did not prevent this from happening is de facto evidence of our nefarious intentions on the peaceful and benign country of Iraq.

Fezaesthesia - Prognosis poor...

[silera]

That reminds me of my friend, let's call him "Limp Dick", he drinks whiskey to ease the pain of blue balls.


<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=FBF2F7>

[Bergalad]

To beat a dead horse off-topic like all of this has been about the museum, this from the Wall Street Journal today:
Lt. Col. Schwartz, whose functions also include feeding the lions in the abandoned Baghdad Zoo next door, said he couldn't move into the museum compound and protect it from looters last week because his soldiers were taking fire from the building -- and were determined not to respond. There is an Iraqi army trench in the museum's front lawn, and Lt. Col. Schwartz said his troops found many Iraqi army uniforms inside. "If there is any dirty trick in the book," he said, "they sure used it."
So maybe we weren't just sitting there watching the looting like some are saying.

[silera]

Bergalad the point being, in a preemptive war in which we had the luxury of not rushing our actions and always responding and being on the defense, could the US planners have made arrangements prior to entering Baghdad, as was requested by international cultural advisors as well as our own national cultural advisors, to secure institutions such as the museum and the library. The answer is obvious that it could have been done.

In the case of the zoo, obviously if they were being shot at, the previously agreed upon course of action would not have been carried out. However, the animals went hungry for 10 days, after Baghdad was already declared a victory.

I am happy that the marines have already started to care for the animals.

It may seem stupid, whatever, the poor animals don't deserve to die because our world is fucked up and they're stuck in cages and can't even get their own food.




<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=FBF2F7>

[Bestinshow]

It may seem stupid, whatever, the poor animals don't deserve to die because our world is fucked up and they're stuck in cages and can't even get their own food.

It is not stupid at all. There lives are just as precious as ours.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

[TheMojoPin]

<img src="http://www.dumpstermonkey.com/media/halloween2002/part3/Hamburglar.JPG"width=450>

STOP THAT PIGEON!!!

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-17-03 @ 9:39 PM

[TooCute]

could the US planners have made arrangements prior to entering Baghdad, as was requested by international cultural advisors as well as our own national cultural advisors, to secure institutions such as the museum and the library

And the Hague convention. ACKNOWLEDGE the Hague convention, goddamn it you cunt!!!

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

[TheMojoPin]

SKANK IT UP, MOFO'S.

<img src=http://www.skabrewing.com/Animated%20GIFS/skankin.gif>

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Bergalad]

I agree that if they could have stopped the looting, they should have. There are some interesting things coming to light about the museum now though, such as many of the artifacts were moved prior to the war and some of the personnel there did not know it. Because of that the museum reported greater losses (and more critical ones at that) than is actually true. Most of the best items (the Assyrian Bulls for example) are just fine and were secreted away by a few clever museum personnel. Much of this looting was an inside job by Baath Party members it now seems, so the US isn't as negligent as first made out to be. And on this In the case of the zoo, obviously if they were being shot at, the previously agreed upon course of action would not have been carried out the LTC was referring to taking fire from the museum, not the zoo, so that's why they didn't go in right away to stop the looters. Oh yes, and the Hauge Convention...I will do more research on that Too Cute, but for now...I don't think we broke it much really. We didn't attack it during the bombing, we would have stopped the looting but we were being fired upon, and now we even have the FBI over there to get the stuff back. Not that it abrogates anything, but Iraq broke the Convention first by having government officials (Baath members) steal the items in an organized robbery http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/04/17/sprj.nilaw.artifacts/index.html. I am a history major and would have liked them to save all of the museum items just as much as you would have, but it is hard to fight sabatoge like what apparently happened.

[TooCute]

I don't know if my communication skills have gotten poorer, or if the board's reading comprehension is growing more and more diminished by a blindness caused by this war, but for the last time, if it wasn't clear enough the last two last times, I was merely taking issue with the assertion that the I have never seen, will never see and have not been affected in any way shape or form by artifacts of useless chipped pottery of no intrest to any American, outside of the context of the war.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

[A.J.]

The lastest on the looting. It wasn't as bad as originally thought:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/international/worldspecial/01MUSE.html?ex=1052452800&en=2f4c8fbc224301be&ei=5071&partner=CNN

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">

A Skidmark production.

http://www.internerd.com/frink.retired/frinkv.2/stuff/littlepc.gif

[FiveB247]

I for one am shocked and awed that the media has over stated an item and not properly informed the public of what is going on.

It's typical and sad. People get accused of rape and other god awful things on page 1, yet the dismissals are all passed over or barely commented on somewhere in the middle (which is lost). Media isn't about informing the public of news worthy items, it's about ratings, sales, profit, influence and power.

[Yerdaddy]

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/27/arts/27RICH.html?fta=y" target="_blank">And Now: 'Operation Iraqi Looting'</a> - Overview of how the administration had been warned of the risk to the museums, the precident of looting after the 1991 war, ( <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/international/worldspecial/01ARTI.html" target="_blank">Of 2,000 Treasures Stolen in Gulf War of 1991, Only 12 Have Been Recovered</a> ), it's response to public criticism of the looting, and some of the types of historical objects that may or may not have been stolen. I recently heard retired Marine Lieutenant General Paul Van Riper, <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,787018,00.html" target="_blank">(who defeated the US military in a massive wargame as Saddam Hussein last year)</a>, call it "a disgrace" that the US had sufficient forces on the ground to win the war, but not to heed the warnings to provide for security after the fall of the regime, and that was part of the reason the original war plans called for 7 divisions instead of the 2, (or 3, I forget), that Rumsfeld stripped it down to.

Other problems created by the failure to provide security:
<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030418/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_oil_city_2" target="_blank">Looting at Iraq Oil Fields Hurts Recovery </a>
<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030501/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_oil&cid=540&ncid=1480" target="_blank">Iraqi Refinery Restarts; Looting Persists </a>
<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=1514&e=1&u=/afp/20030412/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_war_aid_030412151542" target="_blank">Aid trickles into Iraq amid scenes of chaos</a>
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46027-2003Apr27.html" target="_blank">Looting Is a Double Loss for U.S. Forces</a> - Looted weapons are now on the streets.
<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030421/hl_nm/iraq_hospital_dc_1" target="_blank">Iraqi Children's Hospital May Close After Looting</a>
<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030415/pl_afp/iraq_war_museum_us_030415201810" target="_blank">Looting of Baghdad museum like post-game riot: Rumsfeld</a>
<a href="http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2003/tr20030415-secdef0107.html" target="_blank">DoD News Briefing - Secretary Rumsfeld and Gen. Myers</a> - Search for "loot". Time note: Baghdad fell, (the toppling of the Saddam statue), on April 9th. Museum began to be looted April 12th, ( <a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030501/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_chronology_2" target="_blank">A Timeline of the War in Iraq</a> ).
<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030415/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_war_us_rights_030415162912" target="_blank">US failing to stop killings, looting in Kirkuk: rights monitor</a>
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35498-2003Apr24.html" target="_blank">Site That Contained Uranium Was Looted After War </a>

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20030417/lthumb.sge.bhl40.170403121648.photo00.default-384x287.jpg
<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030417/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_war_sahhaf_offbeat_030417121652" target="_blank">Baghdad looting just a shopping festival, survivor Sahhaf says</a>

<IMG SRC="http://czm.racknine.net/images/yersig.gif">
CZM productions

FREE YERBOOBIES!