universal healthcare...... NO GOOD!!!!! [Archive]

WRESTLINGFAN

04-30-2003, 08:26 AM

Hilary Clinton's dream of having universal healthcare in the US is nothing more than her dream to turn this country into a socialist state.

Universal healthcare would mean that everyone in this country would have access to this.

Yes even illegal aliens who come into this country would be entitled.

Universal healthcare has failed. Canadians it and now alot of Canadians are coming into the US to have surgery.

Also, under this policy, this would mean that there would be second rate doctors, low quality prescriptions and the government mandating when you can have surgery, or even worse if surgery is needed.

Lets keep it the way it is. Anyone who thinks universal healthcare is great should take a flight to Cuba and see how successful it is.

Kinda makes you think when the #1 rapper is white and the #1 golfer is black

This message was edited by WRESTLINGFAN on 4-30-03 @ 12:41 PM

A.J.

04-30-2003, 08:37 AM

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DarkHippie

04-30-2003, 09:03 AM

I most emphatically disagree.

There is a lost generation out here. One that has no access to any doctors at all. If they need medicine, if they are ill, they are out of luck. Private insurance can cost upwards of 1,000 a month, and they will reject you for most any pre-existing condition. Not all jobs offer insurance, and the ones that do often offer minimal coverage.

with out universal heathcare, only the wealthy and those lucky enough to find a job with good insurance are allowed to see doctors and get medicine. No one else can afford it. Neither can their children. . . this is no good

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TheMojoPin

04-30-2003, 09:27 AM

I agree that universal healthcare is not the answer. But I believe that because ultimately it would be as flawed and inadequate as the system that we currently have now. Instead of too many "second rate" doctors or government scheduled surgery, you simply have far, far too many people who can't afford to see a doctor or receive surgery at all. Isn't there some kind of happy medium?

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HBox

04-30-2003, 09:37 AM

Lets keep it the way it is.

There are many solutions, but THAT is certanily not the answer. The amount of people in this country with health insurance has been shrinking the last few years. That can't continue.

DarkHippie

04-30-2003, 09:48 AM

Anyone who thinks universal healthcare is great should take a flight to Cuba and see how successful it is.
curse Cuba and their menningitis vaccine!! (that we can't get because of the embargo)

wrestlingfan, you're relatively new, and I haven't talked about it in a while, so forgive me in advance if i become a prick on this subject. I have a chronic, debilitating disease, that has kept me from working at times (so I can't hold a job with insurance) my medicine is so expensive that i could never afford it with my freelance work. I have to be on medicaid to get my medicine (without, i would be in serious shit) on medicaid, if you make more than 500$ a month, you have to pay the rest back to the state (in my county at least). i have applied for disability, but was rejected twice because "i have worked in the past, if even for a short time (ie: i am not permanently disabled)

So you see, if there was universal healthcare, i would not be in the situation i am in now: i prisoner to my illness, unable to make more than 500$ a month (not even enough for a month's rent!)

I am sure that my story is not unusual. so please, tell me again how we should keep things the way they are.

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JerryTaker

04-30-2003, 10:07 AM

Also, under this policy, this would mean that there would be second rate doctors, low quality prescriptions and the government mandating when you can have surgery, or even worse if surgery is needed.

Well, I'm sorry if you feel you'd have to share a doctor with everyone you consider "beneath you." I'm sure the rich crybabies would still be able to afford top notch drugs and doctors, like they always have....

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FiveB247

04-30-2003, 05:20 PM

First off let me say I think universal healthcare is not possible. But I do believe the current privatized hmo system is not set up to benefit those in need....it is a company for profit.

If you believe your health should be somehow compromised due to your economic standing, I highly doubt you've ever been in a situation in which you actually saw how the turn-aways, treatment and medicines needed can be unavaible to those not able to pay. If you see or live through such things first or second hand...you'd likely change your mind.

Anyone who thinks universal healthcare is great should take a flight to Cuba and see how successful it is.

Actually it's funny you should mention Cuba considering they have many of the same social statistics regarding health problems and issues that the US does. Cuba actually has one of the world largest groups of doctors which travel overseas in order to help others; mostly in Africa. But you'd never see that printed or spoken about in the US media considering they are a "threat".

LiquidCourage

04-30-2003, 07:56 PM

with out universal heathcare, only the wealthy and those lucky enough to find a job with good insurance are allowed to see doctors and get medicine. No one else can afford it. Neither can their children. . . this is no good

Yeah, only the wealthy 250 million Americans have healthcare.
This is really unfair.

And FiveB247, I don't know where you're getting your Cuba "facts" from, but their healthcare system really is the joke it's made out to be.

This message was edited by LiquidCourage on 5-1-03 @ 12:21 AM

HBox

04-30-2003, 08:15 PM

Look, don't just bring up Cuba like its the international standard inuniversal health care. Look at this website:http://www.pnhp.org/hcinfo/?go=international

No less than 15 countries, who have far less money then we do, manage to have successful health systems that somehow offer coverage to everybody. But that is an obviously biased source. So let's look at some WHO data on some countries

Norway: Life Expectancy 76.1 M 81.4 F
Health expenditure per capita: $2,373
GDP per capita:$30,344
http://www.who.int/country/nor/en/

Sweden: Life Expectency 77.7 M 82.3 F
Health expenditure per capita: $2,097
GDP per capita:$24,819
http://www.who.int/country/swe/en/

Canada: Life Expectency 76.6 M 81.9 F
Health expenditure per capita:$2,534
GDP per capita:$27,956
http://www.who.int/country/can/en/

USA: Life Expectency 74.3 M 79.5 F
Health expenditure per capita:$4,499!
GDP per capita:$34,637
http://www.who.int/country/usa/en/

Congratulations if you got this far. To sum it up, we make more and spend more on health care than any other country, yet live shorter than some other countries. We spend more than twice the amount of money on health care than the Swedish, yet can look forward to living 3 less years. There is something very wrong here. We are America, we have the best medical technology in the world. We deserve better. I don't know what the answer is, but we don't have it yet.

I'm sorry for the long post, but this is an extremely importnat issue to me.

El Mudo

04-30-2003, 08:29 PM

Please. The government can't even keep the damn roads in good shape. And i'm not rich at all, and have health coverage through my Union.

Besides, it will cost way too much. If you think economic times are "bad" now...

Also, when the goverment probably puts all the private drug companies out of business because they can't compete, what will happen to research and development?

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LiquidCourage

04-30-2003, 08:32 PM

Our healthcare is FAR better than those countries'.
Most people seem to have this idea that Canada, Britain, etc. have healthcare just as good as ours, but it's free...
It's not. The lines are backed up, you've got to plan surgery out months or even years in advance. It's a mess.
I know a guy from England who was living here for a while, and he hurt his back. He paid to have it fixed here because if he had to have it done there he'd wait almost a year to get it fixed. I dont' know if you've ever had a back injury or not, but it's definitely not the kind of thing you want to walk around with for a few months.

I think it's like Mojo said; we need to find a happy medium for now.

LiquidCourage

04-30-2003, 08:32 PM

Besides, it will cost way too much. If you think economic times are "bad" now...

Haha, that reminds me of that guy Dick Gephardt. He was saying the other day that if he's elected president we'll have free healthcare AND the economy will boom.
His plan would cost something like 650 billion dollars over 4 years. You've got to be kidding me!

LiquidCourage

04-30-2003, 08:32 PM

Good point.
There's a big difference between Sweden, a country of 12 million people where they take almost 70% of your pay away from you and the US which has almost 300 million people.

El Mudo

04-30-2003, 08:35 PM

No less than 15 countries, who have far less money then we do, manage to have successful health systems that somehow offer coverage to everybody.

So what. All those countries don't even come close to the population we have here...the closest is Japan, with 122 mill, which is barely half of our country.

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HBox

04-30-2003, 08:38 PM

the closest is Japan, with 122 mill, which is barely half of our country.

I was hoping someone would mention Japan.

Japan: Life Expectency 77.9 M 84.7 F
Health expenditure per capita:$2,009
GDP per capita:25,091
http://www.who.int/country/jpn/en/

Our healthcare is FAR better than those countries'

Bitch and moan all you like. The evidence simply isn't there. If you look at those links you'll also see that people in those countries live healthy longer than we do.

You can ignore the problem all you like. At least acknowledge you're ignoring it.

This message was edited by HBox on 5-1-03 @ 1:05 AM

FiveB247

04-30-2003, 08:44 PM

http://www.wola.org/publications/cuba_myths_facts.pdf

http://www.cubasolidarity.net/apha.html

http://www.cubasolidarity.net/healtold.html

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2001-05/22thrupkaew.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/galleries/cubahealth/pages/splash.htm

http://64.78.50.150/codev/faces/healthwelfare.htm

http://www.cs-journal.org/lll1/lll1politics1.html

Yeah Cuba is just an awful threat and the almighty US has little to do with their medical issues (via embargos, sanctions, etc). What's sad is that they actually have a few items in which they rate higher than the US....but so much for humanitarian efforts...right? "National security" is a funny concept...very elastic.

JerryTaker

05-01-2003, 07:18 AM

I love the sentiment here. what you're saying, essentially, is, "I have insurance, so the healthcare system works"

Liquidcourage, 250 Million out of 290 Million total population? is that from this year? what's your source? Premiums have gotten so high that smaller companies can't afford to provide their employees anymore, and those costs keep rising.

I always wonder how many people around here will change thier tune when the shit starts hitting the fan a little closer to them...

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LiquidCourage

05-01-2003, 01:56 PM

Bitch and moan all you like. The evidence simply isn't there. If you look at those links you'll also see that people in those countries live healthy longer than we do.

You can ignore the problem all you like. At least acknowledge you're ignoring it.

You're also ignoring the fact that Americans are the most overweight people on the planet.

Gvac

05-01-2003, 02:32 PM

Here's a novel idea - cut everyone's taxes so they could afford to buy health insurance themselves.

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Drudge Jr.

05-01-2003, 02:41 PM

yeah those canadians just hate universal healthcare

and let's not forget that illegal immigrants, the poor, ex-cons, and drug adicts arent human beings

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Se7en

05-01-2003, 03:39 PM

yeah those canadians just hate universal healthcare

They have it, but look at them, those fuckers are all dying of SARS.

Look, I BARELY have health coverage. It costs me more money a month than I can afford, AND I pretty much have to go to the shitty HMO down the street if I get sick (which is why I haven't gone to the doctor in something like 3 or 4 years), but even with me being on the low end of coverage - universal healthcare is SHIT. It won't work in this country.

Fuck your socialism.

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HBox

05-01-2003, 03:50 PM

Fuck your socialism.

Do you write everything you don't like off as socialism?

LiquidCourage

05-01-2003, 05:37 PM

Socialized healthcare- my guess is that it's socialism.

LiquidCourage

05-01-2003, 05:37 PM

Come on now.
After the kings of gay sodomy get STDs, it's the producers of society to pay for their care.

You should all know that by now.

The Jays

05-01-2003, 05:40 PM

Here's a novel idea - cut everyone's taxes so they could afford to buy health insurance themselves.

... But then how are we suppose to get the wealthy people to pay for the poor people's health insurance?

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JerryTaker

05-01-2003, 06:42 PM

... But then how are we suppose to get the wealthy people to pay for the poor people's health insurance?

Depends... Did they get wealthy because of a bullshit malpractice lawsuit????

Why do you think costs are so high?

And nice comment, Liquidcourage, Intolerant on two levels. I guess all the poor and gay people should just slit thier wrists open, hmm?

EDIT: Can't.....spell.... Too... angry...

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This message was edited by JerryTaker on 5-1-03 @ 10:45 PM

JerryTaker

05-01-2003, 06:47 PM

Here's a novel idea - cut everyone's taxes so they could afford to buy health insurance themselves.

Well, except for one thing....

http://www.ronfez.net/MESSAGEBOARD/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=87&Topic=27692&RequestTimeout=50

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LiquidCourage

05-01-2003, 07:11 PM

And nice comment, Liquidcourage, Intolerant on two levels. I guess all the poor and gay people should just slit thier wrists open, hmm?

Of course I'm intolerant.
I'm intolerant of irresponsible dirtbags fucking themselves up and forcing everyone else to pay for it.

JerryTaker

05-01-2003, 07:18 PM

I'm intolerant of irresponsible dirtbags fucking themselves up and forcing everyone else to pay for it.

My job recently stopped providing coverage because they couldn't afford it anymore...

About a month later, while washing dishes, A glass exploded in my hand, damn near slicing my index finger off. I probably should have just held ih together and hoped for the best, but my parents and gf said I should go to the hospital, because it wouldn't stop bleeding...

Now I still have a huge hospital bill that I can't afford to pay, and if anything happens to me now, I might as well put a gun to my head, because that's all the help I'll get.

Does that make me an "Irresponsible Dirtbag," as you put it???

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LiquidCourage

05-01-2003, 07:26 PM

I'm sorry to hear that.

But you have to understand that if we did have universal healthcare the quality would go down quite a bit.

You need to understand you'd be getting free shit.

I'm not calling you an irresponsible dirtbag. However, Americans will have to pay millions of dollars for the healthcare of these people who are truly irresponsible dirtbags.

LiquidCourage

05-01-2003, 07:26 PM

TheMojoPin

05-01-2003, 08:26 PM

Also, people need to see the other side of it.
Under the Clintons' plan, doctors have choice of what they would practice, where they could practice in the country, etc.

It's not just an issue of taxes.

You keep talking like we have NO other option than what we currently have in place now. I agree, universal health care in the forms it's been presented here is NOT the best answer...but we NEED something better than what we have now...I don't have the answers, but I'm confident that something else can be achieved that has more benefits across the spectrum...it won't be perfect, far from it...but is that any reason to settle for what we have now?

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HBox

05-01-2003, 11:40 PM

I'm intolerant of irresponsible dirtbags fucking themselves up and forcing everyone else to pay for it.

OK. I refuse to pay for smokers health bills. I refuse to pay for drinkers health bills. I refuse to pay for overweight people's health bills. I refuse to pay for out of shape people's health bills. I refuse to pay health bills for those who don't wear coats when it is cold outside. I refuse to pay health bills for people who eat red meat. Damn irresponsible dirtbags. Take care of yourself.

JerryTaker

05-02-2003, 07:33 AM

Damn irresponsible dirtbags. Take care of yourself.

Thing is, when you pay for insurance, either pravately or through taxes, your paying for every asshole who sues the hospital becasue they left it with a hangnail. Our worst enemy in this case is bullshit litigation, not overuse of facilities...

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LiquidCourage

05-02-2003, 10:12 AM

Oh well.
I'll soon be able to talk about this issue with first hand experience. This fall I will be left without healthcare.

JerryTaker

05-02-2003, 10:46 AM

By the way...

But you have to understand that if we did have universal healthcare the quality would go down quite a bit.

As I said before, the rich will still be able to afford thier nice, better trained doctors so they can keep reminding us "poor folk" that they're better than the rest of us...

The poor will have uglier scars maybe, but we won't have to die in the streets of gangrene...

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Se7en

05-02-2003, 10:51 AM

Quote:
Fuck your socialism.

Do you write everything you don't like off as socialism?

No. Sometimes it's communism or fascism.

C'mon, get serious for a moment - you and I both know that universal healthcare is more of a socialist policy than it is NOT a socialist policy.

And by the by, I'm a firm capitalist, so yes: fuck your socialism.

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TheMojoPin

05-02-2003, 10:54 AM

C'mon, get serious for a moment - you and I both know that universal healthcare is more of a socialist policy than it is NOT a socialist policy.

While I oppose universal health care in its current propsed forms, so WHAT if it's socialist? I don't get the "ahhh! COOTIES!!!" attitude...it's not like the rest of the country would be socialist...it's a form of social reform that has socialist origins...oooooh, scary...

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Se7en

05-02-2003, 02:01 PM

Hey, I DID throw in a caveat - I AM a capitalist.

Which means that I don't want a socialist policy to get passed. It's sort of a reactionary "foot in the door" mentality. In my opinion, it will just make it easier for neo-socialists like Hillary to come along and change the very fabric of our society.

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"By the laws of this very government - whether they want to accept it or not - every American is complicit in the darkness that this country spreads across the rest of the world - simply by paying taxes." -- Inali Redpath
"That's terrorist double-talk and I, for one, am SICK of listening to it." -- Captain America

"We have become too civilised to grasp the obvious. For the truth is very simple. To survive you often have to fight, and to fight you have to dirty yourself. War is evil, and it is often the lesser evil."
---George Orwell

TheMojoPin

05-02-2003, 02:38 PM

Alright then.

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HBox

05-02-2003, 02:42 PM

Which means that I don't want a socialist policy to get passed.

Does that mean you oppose Medicare and Medicaid? Those are socialist policies, however limited they they are. Hell, Social Security is a socialist policy.

FiveB247

05-02-2003, 03:35 PM

The Jays

05-02-2003, 03:44 PM

To play devil's advocate Se7en...should everything be capitalized and nothing completely run by government? Cause that's really the influence of Socialism...government's complete control of certain industries. Should we hire militia's to fight wars and protect us?

... The government that governs least governs best.

A government's first and formost responibilty is to ensure the basic rights of man; life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. As far as having a standing army, that is a government responsibility, since it ensures all three basic rights, as well as the Constitution.

The government does not need to provide healthcare, but it must make sure that the opportunity to receive healthcare is available.

 Fuck what you heard.
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travis151

05-03-2003, 05:00 AM

Socialists are the worst thing known to man, their hearts are in the right place but they don't understand that so many people would use and abuse the system. Socialism has never work succesfully over a long period of time unless you want to live a third world country like Cuba and yes it is. For thoughs of us who work hard we deserve to have the best healthcare why because we and our employers pay for it. I do beleive we all need sometype of healthcare, I live in Massachusetts so if you can not pay for it we have Medicare I use to work in a pharmacy and it is priced just as well as thoughs of us who pay for it ourselves. But alot of people continue not to work just so they can stay on Medicare, my girlfriend has also worked at "Free" clinics for thoughs who do not apply for medicare, Drug users,homeless,mothers who refuse to bring their children to real doctors. Its really sad. What it comes down to is healthcare should provide for thoughs who truly can not afford heathcare and can not work, Elderly/children/handicapped and thats it. If you can work just get off you ass and do it.

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Rorschach

05-03-2003, 02:44 PM

why does everyone think they're entitled to something for free?

The End Is Nigh

phixion

05-03-2003, 02:54 PM

okay first of all socialism isnt in itself a bad thing......the mail for example is a socialist company, it is run by the government. is it bad?
i dont think so

also public schools are another socialist entity. school paid for by the gov't, i cnat think of a better example than that. and i think we would end up doing the same thing for medicine.

the free medicine would b overcrowded, underfunded, and we would end up doing surgeries in bathrooms because there is not enough space.

the private healthcare would b like private schools...

im sorry i would love for healthcare to b run by the government...then my grandmother could get her medicine and my family wouldnt send her money every couple of weeks so she can eat. but it would never happen.......

Americans are too scared of anything that smells like communism.

and i dont see change coming not until the middle class grows back to what it was.........but hey uve gotta love the Trickle Down Theory.......rite, wrestlingfan?

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HBox

05-03-2003, 05:19 PM

the free medicine would b overcrowded, underfunded, and we would end up doing surgeries in bathrooms because there is not enough space.

Why does everyone think this is gonna happen? Is everybody gonna get sick and need surgery as soon the government offers insurance? Or are you under the impression that there are THAT many people right now not being treated. And if so, are you content to continue letting these people suffer? Just wondering.........

phixion

05-03-2003, 06:20 PM

Why does everyone think this is gonna happen? Is everybody gonna get sick and need surgery as soon the government offers insurance? Or are you under the impression that there are THAT many people right now not being treated. And if so, are you content to continue letting these people suffer? Just wondering.........

no u missed the point of my post entirely, Hbox. what i was saying is that when we finally do have the gov't controlling medicine, theyll do it like tehy run schools. poorly. im on your side...i want to see it, but there gonna fuck it up.

this gov't will give the upper class neighborhoods the good shit and the rest of us crap....just like they do with schools.....but thats what they want.....they keep the poor down and out...while the rich prosper and thrive.

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Se7en

05-03-2003, 06:53 PM

Does that mean you oppose Medicare and Medicaid? Those are socialist policies, however limited they they are. Hell, Social Security is a socialist policy.

Good point. I suppose I should have thrown out ANOTHER caveat - not ALL socialist policies are bad, in my capitalist philosophy.

However, some programs are by nature too expansive for me to be comfortable with. Universal healthcare is one of them.

And if so, are you content to continue letting these people suffer? Just wondering.........

Yes.

Seriously, no, I don't want people to suffer, but what do you want from me? I'm just saying that I don't like the idea of universal healthcare in this country. I've never said that I personally thought the current system was anything even resembling adequate, and I haven't presented any alternatives because frankly it's out of my league.

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HBox

05-03-2003, 07:09 PM

I think the current system in Vermont is a good start. From what I understand, the state government covers every child until the age of 23. As well, they offer incentives to businesses to offer helath coverage. It seems like a good first step, and hell, it just may be good enough. I'm not sure universal healthcare is the best idea, but I do think it would be better than the current system.

HBox

05-03-2003, 07:09 PM

Oops. Double post.

This message was edited by HBox on 5-3-03 @ 11:13 PM

travis151

05-03-2003, 07:16 PM

TheMojoPin

05-03-2003, 08:03 PM

Socailism is so f'in wrong. No we pay with our taxes for Our schools and Our postal service.

Uh, when most people say "universal health care", they ARE assuming it will be added to our taxes...I highly doubt most of its supporters are thinking it's just going to be on the government's dime...

Of course, our taxes would have to be raised to around 20-25%. Ouch.

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phixion

05-03-2003, 08:41 PM

Socailism is so f'in wrong. No we pay with our taxes for Our schools and Our postal service. Its not completly government control if you have to buy your own stamps for yourself.Phixon you must not be statisfied with your life if you feel that the Government is keeping YOU down. If you do feel that fight back, work harder show them they can't keep you down. No schools aren't socailism either if they were there would not be Unions and all teachers would be making the same amount of money. All I ask is read about Socialism and how it has destroyed so many lives. Socialism will never work its economy can not survive. Read anybook about the former USSR and you'll the countless mistakes that are from Socailism.

first of all, socialism isnt in itself a bad thing. its just not applicable in places in life. just like communism isnt in itself a bad thing it just if its not used rite its pointless. and yes schools are socialist entities.....the government controls who they higher, the government controls what they teach, the government also controls what they cant teach, the government also evaulates tehir jobs with regents at the end of teh year. and we are not discussing socialism in all aspects of life simply healthcare......which they have in canada and the UK...so unless u consider them socialist states........

secondly the government isnt trying to keep ME down but i do live in a poor neighborhood.....i see drugs being dealt usually on a daily basis.... i hear gunshots from outside my window at least once a month...i was luckily enough to be born into a middle-class family... not all of my friends were. i see what they go through...... and i see the effect of poor schools everyday. no im not a zealot trying to right wrongs or change the world....im just a person who sees things as they are...

but if ur trying to convince me that the government isnt trying to keep the poor, poor...look at all the SUNY schools...they provide great education at extremely affordable rates..simply because Albany used to set teh tuition...now Pataki is allowing each individual SUNY school to set their own tuition, the probable result: higher tuition, larger classes at all SUNY schools. another result: the people who could have barely afforded SUNY schools are going to be forced to go to CUNY schools...thus the poor have a worse education, worse jobs, less money, so that they would send their children to poor schools where they recieve a worse education which results in worse jobs, and so on and so on......if this doesnt sound a permanent lower class i dont know what does.

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HBox

05-03-2003, 09:56 PM

if this doesnt sound a permanent lower class i dont know what does.

I wouldn't go that far. One of the best things about this country is that ANYBODY can do great things. It is unfortunate, though, that it is much easier for some that it is for others, and that the gap is widening.

JerryTaker

05-03-2003, 10:37 PM

the poor have a worse education, worse jobs, less money, so that they would send their children to poor schools where they recieve a worse education which results in worse jobs, and so on and so on......if this doesnt sound a permanent lower class i dont know what does.

Hey, the 80's really are coming back... It's not Just "Vice City"...

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FiveB247

05-03-2003, 11:24 PM

One of the best things about this country is that ANYBODY can do great things. It is unfortunate, though, that it is much easier for some that it is for others, and that the gap is widening.

The American dream of economic mobility is dying and passing away with time. Nowadays it is a farce. The separation of wealth in the US is at its largest point since the days of the Rockefeller, Carnegie and Morgan. We are turning into an elitist society (via our morals, beliefs and ideologies). No one cares about being simply content or happy....they all want to be the star of the show, to be rich and powerful is what people vie for...nothing less. The American dream has long passed and is naive to believe in.

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HBox

05-03-2003, 11:34 PM

The American dream has long passed and is naive to believe in.

Wow. I almost got to the point where I said "Love it or leave it!" Almost.

travis151

05-04-2003, 06:57 AM

Mojo some people don't understand that we a going to be he ones to pay those taxes. Also socailism has never worked it is wrong ,corrupted,and leads to a stalling backwards economy. If I'm wrong please give examples how and where it has worked. Where it has failed U.S.S.R., China, North Korea,Cuba, want more? Read these books Communism: A History, Animal Farm, The Black Book of Communism and Useful Idiots: How Liberals got it Wrong.
Don't fool yourself the Education system isn't completly socialist, I already gave the reason why don't spin by saying the government dicates the pay of teachers salaries , the teacher Unions negotiate their salaries. The reason why schools are claiming money problems is because of miss management. States like Massachusetts are trying to have private companies run the schools people who know what they are doing.

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HBox

05-04-2003, 08:56 AM

miss management

DAMN HER!!! QUIT FUCKING UP OUR SCHOOLS YOU BITCH!!!!!

TheMojoPin

05-04-2003, 10:02 AM

Read these books Communism: A History, Animal Farm, The Black Book of Communism and Useful Idiots: How Liberals got it Wrong.

You're over-estimating. All of the countries you named either had socialist leanings or socialist programs, but were NOT purely socialist societies. As America does now, they were simply using various "types" of socialist reform. Socialism is hardly the sole cause of these countries downfalls, and to think so is to ridiculously over-simplify what actually happened or is happening. Socialism is no more "evil" than communism or democracy is...the fault always rests squarely on those who misuse these forms of government, or try to expand them beyond their means. For example, certain aspects of communism CAN work in a society like ours, yet to to expand it to a role where it represents all or even the majority of the government in place is ludicrious. You need to "mix 'n match", which our country has done for decades with socialism, democracy and republic-anism...

And I read the first four chapters of "Useful Idiots" before throwing it down in disgust. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand and serves only to bait, insult, name call, divide and, quite frankly, waste our time. What an awful, awful book. As the title suggests, it's purpose is to only "expose" and insult and degrade so-called "liberals" and, as is usually the case in these kind of hurtful and useless witch hunts, targets most of its pages on "celebrity activists" as opposed to actual politicians.

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FiveB247

05-04-2003, 10:21 AM

Go Mojo..it's your birthday.

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The Jays

05-04-2003, 11:31 AM

thus the poor have a worse education, worse jobs, less money, so that they would send their children to poor schools where they recieve a worse education which results in worse jobs, and so on and so on......if this doesnt sound a permanent lower class i dont know what does.

... ah, the downward spiral theory... how wonderful.....

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travis151

05-04-2003, 12:14 PM

Mojo, just give of some examples on how socailism has worked.If you bothered reading the whole book you can clearly see how many in the media twist and spin and select what THEY want to air in teleivsion , newspapers, and radio. Your right that there is corruption in all governments. No I do not believe in witch hunts but if certain individuals on both sides of it lie because of their beliefs they should be pointed out and held accountable.
The book does go after certain celebrites Jane Fonda, Ed Asner, Martain Sheen, but far more from congress T. Kennedy, John Kerry, hillary Clinton, need I go on. Seems these polititions have back pedeled from their stance during the 70 and 80's even trying to take credit on the dimise of the fall of the former soviet union.

This message was edited by travis151 on 5-4-03 @ 4:27 PM

high fly

05-04-2003, 12:26 PM

When the Clinton health care proposal was shot down, what, 10 years ago, the case had been made that something needed to be done.
Then, as now, health care costs were rising faster than incomes.
At that time, the Republicans had a plan that would also cover everybody. They claimed it was better than the one Clinton proposed. Fair enough.
But what happened to the Republican proposal, huh?
I have lived in [gulp] France during a few summers and have seen their health care system in action. It works very well. Everyone is covered and the quality of care is just as good as in the USA.
As the US Constitution says in it's preamble, one purpose of government is to "promote the general Welfare" of the people.
With 40 million or so Americans without health care, and costs rising faster than incomes, it would be a good thing for the government to do.
I don't care what plan is used, but as rich as this nation is, as compassionate as the American people are, and as talented as they are, we can get this done.
What is "no good" is allowing this situation to fester.

" and they ask me why I drink"

LiquidCourage

05-04-2003, 12:29 PM

Vermont- another great state that was destroyed by the left.

TheMojoPin

05-04-2003, 01:56 PM

Mojo, just give of some examples on how socailism has worked.

America. We have "socialist" programs. We seem to be doing alright.

If you bothered reading the whole book you can clearly see how many in the media twist and spin and select what THEY want to air in teleivsion , newspapers, and radio. Your right that there is corruption in all governments. No I do not believe in witch hunts but if certain individuals on both sides of it lie because of their beliefs they should be pointed out and held accountable.

The book, again, has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of socialism. I've yet to understand why it's been brought up.

The book does go after certain celebrites Jane Fonda, Ed Asner, Martain Sheen, but far more from congress T. Kennedy, John Kerry, hillary Clinton, need I go on. Seems these polititions have back pedeled from their stance during the 70 and 80's even trying to take credit on the dimise of the fall of the former soviet union.

Kinda like painting Reagan as the "ultimate Cold Warrior", right? The book tries to paint anyone who didn't have the blanket "COMMIES ARE EVIL!!!"-mentality as essentially being honorary Soviets. Like I said, I read a few chapters, and I got the point. The book "exposes" nothing. It's simply written by people who don't LIKE what's being said or who's saying it, so they've set out to paint them in the most negative light possible. The book is a blatant smear job, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. It's not an issue of "left" or "right" literature, this book is simply spiteful, hurtful, useless and serves to cause more harm than good.

This is what's so ridiculous about the "liberal media" charges, because now radical conservatives (NOT your everyday conservatives...basically the Sharptons of the Right) can push whatever insane, ugly, accusatory piece of trash they want onto shelves, TV or radio because they know that if anyone questions them they can just curl up and cry "BIAS!!!" until they get their way. Pathetic.

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TheMojoPin

05-04-2003, 02:09 PM

Vermont- another great state that was destroyed by the left.

What the hell was so great about Vermont? And what's wrong with it now? Did a bunch of non-white people move in or something? Last I checked Vermont was still the most boring state we had this side of Delaware...

Is it because of the whole "switching parties" thing? Jeffords was ALWAYS a liberal Republican...Vermont was poor and rural as a Republican state, and it didn't actually begin to truly modernize it's social and economic climate until it "switched" to a firmly Democratic state in the 1960's. So where's the "ruination?"

Ah, wait, I get it. You're Eminem, aren't you?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-4-03 @ 6:28 PM

The Jays

05-04-2003, 03:16 PM

As the US Constitution says in it's preamble, one purpose of government is to "promote the general Welfare" of the people.

...yeah, to PROMOTE, not give out welfare to the people....

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LiquidCourage

05-04-2003, 03:24 PM

Vermont has become this safe haven for hipsters.

Every time I go there these days it's just flooded with scumbag, filthy hippies.

I guess because Phish is from there or something.

FiveB247

05-04-2003, 04:31 PM

Vermont has more cows in the state then people. Not exactly the correct example of how to make or break a philosophy.

No where does it say in the Constitution about universal healthcare....but it doesn't mention anything about a national Bank either...but we have one of those...don't we.

There are no guarantee's either way if universal healthcare would benefit our nation more or less. But I don't recall the current system being successful either. The current system is not for the benefit of the citizens...it's for the benefit of profit. You are not a patient...you are a customer. Remember that...cause it's true.

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Se7en

05-04-2003, 05:00 PM

Is it because of the whole "switching parties" thing? Jeffords was ALWAYS a liberal Republican...

No one likes a traitor.

Especially one who did it for whiny reasons.

"Waah! My party isn't respecting me! My pussy hurts!"

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"By the laws of this very government - whether they want to accept it or not - every American is complicit in the darkness that this country spreads across the rest of the world - simply by paying taxes." -- Inali Redpath
"That's terrorist double-talk and I, for one, am SICK of listening to it." -- Captain America

"We have become too civilised to grasp the obvious. For the truth is very simple. To survive you often have to fight, and to fight you have to dirty yourself. War is evil, and it is often the lesser evil."
---George Orwell

The Jays

05-04-2003, 05:15 PM

No where does it say in the Constitution about universal healthcare....but it doesn't mention anything about a national Bank either...but we have one of those...don't we.

Point?

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TheMojoPin

05-04-2003, 06:40 PM

No one likes a traitor.

Uh, wouldn't he be a traitor if he went to the "other side"? He became an independent, and still often regularly votes WITH the Republicans...he disagreed with the president and the path the party was going and stood up for what he believed in. We'd be better off if more Republicans and Democrats followed his lead and grew a set.

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FiveB247

05-04-2003, 07:02 PM

No where does it say in the Constitution about universal healthcare....but it doesn't mention anything about a national Bank either...but we have one of those...don't we.

Point?

The point is that the Constitution is elastic and in many cases is interpreted word for word in some cases and other times is used broadly where you can add such things like a nation bank where there's no call for one in the Constitution. (If you recall history...the bank issue was widely argued during the early years of our nation.)

Someone made mention of this... As the US Constitution says in it's preamble, one purpose of government is to "promote the general Welfare" of the people.

This is why I mentioned what I did.

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JerryTaker

05-04-2003, 07:11 PM

Here's something I noticed about this thread...

Why are people assuming that the people without healthcare aren't paying taxes? You talk about "getting something for free", and "getting a handout." I think if anyone's "Getting anything for free" it's the ones who are making money off frivoulous lawsuits...

And I may just keep saying "Frivolous Lawsuits" until someone aknowledges that they are the reason why the cost of insurance keeps rising and why a record number of people in this country are without healthcare this year...

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phixion

05-05-2003, 05:55 AM

And I may just keep saying "Frivolous Lawsuits" until someone aknowledges that they are the reason why the cost of insurance keeps rising and why a record number of people in this country are without healthcare this year...

i wont deny that but, i blame HMO's mostly. i mean they are designed to keep healthcare costs down, they pay doctors to not do stuff, cuz it would b more expensive if they actually did stuff.

also i dont see how any lawsuit forces a medicine company to over charge for mediicine. look at HIV, most ppl cant afford the medicine Magic gets. i understand medicine shouldnt b free...but it shouldnt b this expensive either.

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