We give out way too much foreign aid

[LiquidCourage]

Listed below are the actual voting records of various Arabic/Islamic
States which are recorded in both the US State Department and United
Nations' records:

Kuwait votes against the United States 67% of the time.
Qatar votes against the United States 67% of the time.
Morocco votes against the United States 70% of the time.
United Arab Emirates votes against the U. S. 70% of the time.
Jordan votes against the United States 71% of the time.
Tunisia votes against the United States 71% of the time.
Saudi Arabia votes against the United States 73% of the time.
Yemen votes against the United States 74% of the time.
Algeria votes against the United States 74% of the time.
Oman votes against the United States 74% of the time.
Sudan votes against the United States 75% of the time.
Pakistan votes against the United States 75% of the time.
Libya votes against the United States 76% of the time.
Egypt votes against the United States 79% of the time.
Lebanon votes against the United States 80% of the time.
India votes against the United States 81% of the time.
Syria votes against the United States 84% of the time.
Mauritania votes against the United States 87% of the time.

US Foreign Aid to those that hate us:

Egypt, for example, after voting 79% of the time against the United
States, still receives $2 billion annually in US Foreign Aid.

Jordan votes 71% against the United States and receives $192,814,000
annually in US Foreign Aid.

Pakistan votes 75% against the United States receives $6,721,000 annually
in US Foreign Aid.

India votes 81% against the United States receives $143,699,000 annually
in US Foreign Aid.

In the last year The Taliban terrorized the people of Afghanistan and
gave safe haven to Osama Bin Laden, they received $143,000,000 in US
Foreign Aid.

Sudan voted 75% against the United States and received $1,121,000 in US
Foreign Aid. (The US State Department stated that the Sudanese government
is guilty of providing a safe haven for a variety of terrorist groups
including Osama Bin Laden's organization, The Egyptian Jihad, The
Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and Hamas. The Islamic government has also
conducted a literal reign of terror against the Christians living in the
southern part of the country.)

The Palestinian Authority will receive $500 million dollars in US Foreign
Aid over the next five years(!!!) This happened due to the Oslo"Agreement"
of 1993.

The Palestinians were seen on ABC News openly celebrating and dancing in
the streets at the news of both suicide bombings on Sept. 11th.

Israel, it must be noted, receives three billion in US Foreign Aid.
However, for the last five years it has an average record of voting with
the United States 94% of the time.

There is clearly no incentive for most countries to support the United
States, as they will receive US Foreign Aid regardless of their stances.

Perhaps it is time for the United States to deny things such as money,
scientific, technological, medical expertise, and education to nations
who simply will not assist or protect American interests?

Worse yet, your Federal dollar go to and support all of the anti-American
groups trying to destroy the "American way of life". Ya gotta love it.

[TheMojoPin]

Ah, but don't EVER point this out if we ever decide to invade one of these countries...then you'll be "anti-American" or "against the troops"...careful...

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[LiquidCourage]

Uh?

[TheMojoPin]

Just remember the buckets of cash and millitary aid we dumped into Iraq for almost a good decade, and then they ended up being public enemy #1...those that questioned the war and whether we weren't rushing into it unprepared without considering the consequences down the line pointed to how we had thought it was a GREAT idea to support these guys less than 20 years before. But then THOSE people were criticized for "nitpicking"...go figure...

But yes, I DO agree with you. We're FAR too hypocritical, wasteful, inconsistent and will-nilly with our foreign aid.

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[HBox]

Its called foreign aid, not foreign bribery. We give aid because they need it and we are so rich. Voting against us doesn't mean they hate us.

That being said, I think we could consider some of those countries enemies, and why we are still providing them with aid is beyond me.

[Doomstone]

You throw out all these numbers, but what the fuck do they mean?

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'd just like clarification. What does it mean when a country votes against the US 75 percent of the time? Is it like when Scott Hall did his surveys in WCW on whether the crowd came to see the NWO?

[Yerdaddy]

Questions:
1. Do those numbers include consensus votes in the UN? Because if not it would cause a huge distortion of the numbers. (hint: they don't include consensus votes)
2. What year are we talking about?
3. How many of the votes specifically addressed Israel/Palestine issues?
4. How many involved the blockade of Cuba, which only Israel, the US and the Marshall Islands still support?
5. How many votes involved nuclear disarmament issues, which Israel and the US are in a select interest group?
6. Do the foreign aid figures include Foreign Military Financing?
7. Restructuring of debt payments?
8. Food credits?
9. Are there humanitarian reasons for the amount of aid?
10. Are there security reasons for the foreign aid?
11.Do they give us good deals on oil?
12. Does the aid help to protect a regime from being overthrown by less favorable groups? (Especially one that has nuclear weapons or large oil reserves?)
13. Are they providing cooperation on the war on terror?
13. Is this little project supposed to prove that America is stupid?
14. In 2001 Micronesia voted with the United States, (by this project's standards), 93.2% of the time, and Israel voted with the US 91.7% of the time. Does that mean we should take half of Israel's foreign aid and give it to Micronesia?

I'm not ready to start basing my foreign policy opinions on a spam email.

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[FiveB247]

I don't think it's a simple matter of 'they vote against us'. In some cases it could be disagreement on an issue or something like that. I do agree we give out way too much...but at the same point...it's not always just what you give out or how much, it's not completely followed what all of the aid is being spent on as well as its impact. In many aspects, we just dole out money in large sums and hope it is spent properly. If we continue that kinda that type of action, we are just wasting our money instead of seeing it put to good use at its full capacity.

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[Bergalad]

That's right, it's not bribery and we shouldn't expect them to be our lapdogs. What we should expect is that our money is being put to the proper use, and that is what those nations need to be accountable to us for. I will say that if the country receiving aid is not persuing or upholding the American Constitutional ideal (democracy, freedom of the press, etc.) then they should get nothing. The analogy of the parent is applicapble here: they give you your allowance when you are doing the right thing, not when you are screwing up. You don't have to agree with everything your parents say, but you should be (in most cases) striving to emulate them or at least learn from them. This is what the other countries who receive aid should be doing in regards to the US.

[TheMojoPin]

Like most people said here, the biggest problems seem to lie in our mentality of, "let's throw money at a problem until it's not broken", which simply doesn't work. It's an ultra-liberal form of thinking that's too altruistic for its own good.

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[FiveB247]

Bergalad, you are completely contradicting yourself.

That's right, it's not bribery and we shouldn't expect them to be our lapdogs.

The analogy of the parent is applicapble here: they give you your allowance when you are doing the right thing, not when you are screwing up. You don't have to agree with everything your parents say, but you should be (in most cases) striving to emulate them or at least learn from them. This is what the other countries who receive aid should be doing in regards to the US.

Your mention of 'accountability' is closer to the notion of Americanization of the world. Of course nations should uphold democracy and freedoms, but they do have the right to pursue and believe anything outside of those realms without being held incorrect by US standards. And the US is not to be emulated as you call it, it's a more simple way of saying "do as I say, not as I do". Your idea of 'emulate' and 'parent' is closer to bribery then to accountability and development which is what should be applied for foreign aid.


Ps..Mojo I couldn't agree more. Just give handouts and hope the problem fixes itself. It's done in every program, aid, etc. Budget increases automatically fix problems...don't you realize that by now?!

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This message was edited by FiveB247 on 5-23-03 @ 12:51 PM

[Bergalad]

Like most people said here, the biggest problems seem to lie in our mentality of, "let's throw money at a problem until it's not broken", which simply doesn't work. It's an ultra-liberal form of thinking that's too altruistic for its own good.
Did I miss something or is the topic now about the Dem's plans for welfare/universal health care?

[TheMojoPin]

Nah, just Republican tax "reform".

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[Bergalad]

Ugh Five. Are you saying we should give aid, not just to those countries that promote Democracy, but for those that are opposed to what the US believes? We should give money to those who believe, or are moving along the way of believing, as we do. My analogy is fine, thank you. We don't need lapdogs, but we shouldn't give aid to those countries that don't think like we do. Why help them along if they are fostering what we don't deem to be correct? And yes, it's our job to determine and judge what is correct or not, in view of US policy and goals, because it is our money they are receiving. I don't see why this is such a problem for you to accept, that we should hold nations accountable for the money we give them. Again, I am not calling for a bunch of Yes-men, but we need to funnel our foreign aid to those who are similar to us and not to those who are against our values.

[HBox]

I will say that if the country receiving aid is not persuing or upholding the American Constitutional ideal (democracy, freedom of the press, etc.) then they should get nothing.


I don't think we can dictate to nations what government they have to have. I say, as long as a nation isn't hostile to us and they are using the money to improve themselves (building infrastructure, feeding impoverished, etc.) then I have no problem with it.

I don't think we should be supporting foreign governments in building up their military in most cases.

[FiveB247]

Ugh Five. Are you saying we should give aid, not just to those countries that promote Democracy, but for those that are opposed to what the US believes? We should give money to those who believe, or are moving along the way of believing, as we do. My analogy is fine, thank you. We don't need lapdogs, but we shouldn't give aid to those countries that don't think like we do. Why help them along if they are fostering what we don't deem to be correct? And yes, it's our job to determine and judge what is correct or not, in view of US policy and goals, because it is our money they are receiving. I don't see why this is such a problem for you to accept, that we should hold nations accountable for the money we give them. Again, I am not calling for a bunch of Yes-men, but we need to funnel our foreign aid to those who are similar to us and not to those who are against our values.

"Promoting democracy" has very little to do with how much aid we give a nation. That is simply a guise used for rhetoric and pr. The US gives more in foreign aid to non-democratic governments and those that practice non-democratic values such as freedoms (That is a well known fact).

Secondly, your description clearly puts emphasis on 'doing things the American way' in all aspects; and yet you care to not call it 'Yes-men". Should we aid our enemies...of course not...but they are far and few. We actually help them sometimes more then we hinder their capabilities. The way you are explaining the use for aid is closer to the exportation of American values, ways and beliefs. Foreign aid should be monitored for development, implementations and use to make it effective for those nations we believe are in certain needs, as well as those that promote the values we base our nation upon. Simply cutting off those who aren't in full compliance with our ways will hinder the nation to hold hostilities towards the US. And if you don't believe so, ask the citizens of Cuba how they like the embargo...or the Iraqi people who had thousands of children die due to food embargo's. But we'll gladly give North Korea, China, and other similar nations trade and aid...cause they somehow hold our beliefs? Yeah that's not hypocritical at all.

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[Bergalad]

I don't think we can dictate to nations what government they have to have.
Agreed, but if we believe that our way of government is the best one, then why pay governments that are not on the same path? It's a fine line I am threading here, I know, but I think we need to foster and help those nations committed to democracy, not those who are governing contrary to those principles.