The Death Penalty [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

furie

05-27-2003, 01:24 PM

I'm against the death penalty. Not because of this sanctity of life crap, but because it doesn't deter crime.

First, most criminals work under the assumption that they're not going to get caught. Even though the punishment is severe, it's meaningless if they think it won't happen to them.

Second, The death penalty is handed out to 1st degree murders only. This group of criminals has the lowest rate of recidivism of any crime.

I think the death penalty should be applied to the uber-criminal. those that we tried to reform time and time again, but they simply continue to be a drain. And I'm not limiting to just repeat murderers like serial killers, but any criminal that continually commits a crime. We pick a number for a particular crime. once that criminal is convicted that number of times for that crime, he's done.

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TheMojoPin

05-27-2003, 01:41 PM

I'm against it. But mainly because it keeps my dream of a gulag-style hellhole up in the wilds of Alaska for our worst criminals.

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FUNKMAN

05-27-2003, 01:42 PM

i would believe that any level headed person would have to admit that there have been "innocent" people executed and "innocent" people waiting to be executed...

the Justice system is not "perfect" and at times can be "very corrupt"...

my opinion is if there is just one "innocent" person executed it is TOO much... there have been some recent happenings in the news where they have taken a good handful of people off of Death Row and people have been found innocent through DNA testing and have been released...

On The Other Hand!

If a person is caught on video or there are numerous witnesses such as the case with the man on the train who murdered several people and defended himself in court, then there should be no Trial, just one gathering in Court to set the date of execution. And the execution needs to occur within a 1 month timeframe to allow the family to make arrangements...

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Death Metal Moe

05-27-2003, 02:37 PM

Sorry but I'm pro DEATH Penalty.

Hope these guys helped you.

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Heavy

05-27-2003, 02:37 PM

canofsoup15

05-27-2003, 02:41 PM

I think that we should be harder on criminals, they rob a 711, 30 in the slammer, they kill somebody: life, they kill more than 2 people death. And when you do catch them, make sure to shoot them at least once, in the leg or something.:)

But that aside from that i am for the death penalty based on the crime, somebody like McVeigh deserved to die and should, but other people that did something not that wasnt that bad should be in jail so they can suffer in there and live in their self-hatred.

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Drudge Jr.

05-27-2003, 03:24 PM

I find it hard to argue against the death penelty, it just seems so right. First off if you kill someone theres no reson why you shouldnt die also. Secondly, if you were to kill every person that has no hope of getting out of prison it would save bilions of dollars. It really is that cut n dry.

believe it or not, it costs much more to execute a prisoner than it does to keep that prisoner alive. this sounds like liberal bullshit but it's totally true.

and for finding it hard to argue against the death penalty, here's an argument that you simply can't beat. innocent people HAVE died, and innocent people will continue to die as a result of the death penalty. it does not save lives in any way, it does not deter crime.

almost every civilized country on earth has outlawed the death penalty. britain, japan, germany, russia, canada, australia, south africa
look at the countrys that do have the death penalty: china, iran, iraq, libya. this is the country the united states is putting itself in

furthermore to trust the death penalty as being in anyway fair you'd have to trust the justice system. can you honestly say you trust the justice system?

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HBox

05-27-2003, 03:43 PM

Secondly, if you were to kill every person that has no hope of getting out of prison it would save bilions of dollars. It really is that cut n dry.

We, as a country, do not kill people just to save money.

believe it or not, it costs much more to execute a prisoner than it does to keep that prisoner alive. this sounds like liberal bullshit but it's totally true.

Explain please.

This message was edited by HBox on 5-27-03 @ 7:46 PM

phixion

05-27-2003, 04:09 PM

first of all i am for the death penalty. but i dont want retards being killed, and i want DNA testing to occur on old cases and any new case where applicable. teh reason i am for the death penalty however, is because prison in itself is more torture than being put to death. the prison system today needs to reevaluated. it is not in place to rehabilitate just to punish.

I think that we should be harder on criminals, they rob a 711, 30 in the slammer, they kill somebody: life, they kill more than 2 people death. And when you do catch them, make sure to shoot them at least once, in the leg or something.

i seriously hope ur kidding about this. first of all most ppl dont commit crime for the quik buk, they do it cuz htey feel they need to. and i would steal before i let my kids starve. most criminals arent born that way, they feel as if its their only way to make money,a nd in some cases their rite.

Explain please.

it would cost more in court fees to put soemone on death row than it is to give them life. this is due mostly to the unending list of appeals.

japan, germany, russia

dude u shouldve left these 3 countries out of ur list.

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Heavy

05-27-2003, 04:15 PM

believe it or not, it costs much more to execute a prisoner than it does to keep that prisoner alive. this sounds like liberal bullshit but it's totally true.

Seriously, youre gonna have to shoot some numbers at me.

and for finding it hard to argue against the death penalty, here's an argument that you simply can't beat. innocent people HAVE died, and innocent people will continue to die as a result of the death penalty. it does not save lives in any way, it does not deter crime.

Innocent people have died.....ok I dont get your point. First off, link me to atleast 2 or 3 cases of an innocent person being executed. And by your rational one could argue that prison sentences shouldnt be allowed because innocent people have served time.

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HBox

05-27-2003, 05:04 PM

it would cost more in court fees to put soemone on death row than it is to give them life. this is due mostly to the unending list of appeals.

I really do find that hard to believe. Of course there will be court costs in pushing for the death penalty, but the prisoner has to be prosectued anyway. Does it cost THAT much more to prosecute for death than for life in prison. There will probably be appeals if the prisoner is sentenced to life too. And is it taking into account the amount it will cost to keep the prisoner incarcerated for the rest of his life?

Heavy

05-27-2003, 05:21 PM

I seriously doubt it Hbox. I think the number i heard was around 100,000 a year on avg for each prisoner. That number could be way off but even if its only that much its way too high. Execute everyone convicted of murder and itll open room for new criminals and/or save cash

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Drudge Jr.

05-27-2003, 05:41 PM

i dont have access to lexus nexis right now, but look up why the governer of illinois has pardoned everyone on death row, because several of them were found innocent. you doubt that no one innocent ever dies? that's plane ignorance, and you know it.

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Death Metal Moe

05-27-2003, 05:45 PM

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Se7en

05-27-2003, 05:56 PM

believe it or not, it costs much more to execute a prisoner than it does to keep that prisoner alive. this sounds like liberal bullshit but it's totally true.

I want some figures for that assertion.

Actually, I don't care one way or the other....it's not going to change my mind....I just want to make you work.

If it costs more, than I say this: we're just not doing it the right way. Fuck this humane shit. Just go with the old Chinese way - bullet to the back of the head. How much would THAT cost?

and for finding it hard to argue against the death penalty, here's an argument that you simply can't beat. innocent people HAVE died, and innocent people will continue to die as a result of the death penalty. it does not save lives in any way, it does not deter crime.

Why the hell is everyone down so much on good old fashioned punishment and / or revenge?

All this worrying about reducing recidivism. In my opinion, that's what other social programs or punishments are for. Capitol punishment should just be for what it really is all about: ending the life of some bastard who deserves it.

As for killing innocents....eh, it happens. But if you were to tell me that more innocents are killed than the guilty, I'll politely laugh in your face. But maybe you follow Funkman's approach and think one life is too much.

almost every civilized country on earth has outlawed the death penalty. britain, japan, germany, russia, canada, australia, south africa
look at the countrys that do have the death penalty: china, iran, iraq, libya. this is the country the united states is putting itself in

Well, I guess we'll just have to be uncivilized then.

Boo hoo.

furthermore to trust the death penalty as being in anyway fair you'd have to trust the justice system. can you honestly say you trust the justice system?

Speaking as someone who is in law school, I'd have to say that I seem to trust it a lot more than you do.

I'm rabidly pro-death penalty. Kill em all. Kill the retarded too. Hell, we don't use the death penalty ENOUGH. I'm all for making crimes like rape or child molestation capitol offenses.

Draco REALLY got a bad rap. The guy's heart was in the right place.

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TheMojoPin

05-27-2003, 06:12 PM

"Cruel and unusal" anybody? Or only when it's convenient?

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hyperspace

05-27-2003, 06:23 PM

i'll never forget what one of my high school teaches you to say "no crimminal who was excecuted has yet to come back and do it again"

Yerdaddy

05-27-2003, 06:30 PM

I don't support the death penalty because as long as it's run by humans it's going to fuck up. If the system sentences someone to life in prison, and finds out 18 years later that he's innocent, he has the opportunity to sue for compensation, (<a href="http://www.truthinjustice.org/offer.htm" target="_blank">as in the Ford Heights Four case</a>). But the death penalty can't be undone. Consider some of the stories about what people have to go through to prove their innocence in some of the most bizarre and obviously fucked up cases. I've never seen anyone in the justice system try to make the case that innocent people have not been executed before. I'd put a guess at one in twenty.

<a href="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=109" target="_blank">List of 108 death row inmates released since 1973 on evidence of their innocence.</a> Nobody has done any major studies of possibly innocent people who were executed. Generally, judges will not hear evidence of innocence after an execution, and defense attourney's have a tough time collecting fees from dead people. Few people in the criminal justice system think it hasn't happened.
<a href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-dptrialerror-special.special" target="_blank">A five-part Tribune investigation that found 381 people who had homicide verdicts overturned because of prosecutor misconduct since 1963.</a>
<a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/case/" target="_blank">Frontline: the case for innocence: a "total sestem failure?"</a>

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Se7en

05-27-2003, 06:33 PM

"Cruel and unusal" anybody? Or only when it's convenient?

Depends upon your definition.

Ain't cruel & unusual to me.

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TheMojoPin

05-27-2003, 06:57 PM

Bullet to the head?

Alright then.

But then again, as you've just demonstrated in the Israel/Palestine thread, you've got this swell, "if it ain't TOTALLY broke, don't fix it!"-mentality to situations where even only the minimum of "innocent" people are being killed.

"Acceptable losses" in cases like this are only for the weakminded and weakwilled.

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Death Metal Moe

05-27-2003, 07:05 PM

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Heavy

05-27-2003, 07:07 PM

Why doesnt someone show me how many people since 1963 actualy did do it and how much cash it wound up costing to keep them alive

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Yerdaddy

05-27-2003, 07:18 PM

<a href="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7" target="_blank">Financial Facts About the Death Penalty</a>

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ChrisTheCop

05-27-2003, 07:58 PM

Thanks to all, especially Yerdaddy for the above info. my God, it's like this paper is writing itself! Although, I do need a little more facts for the PRO side people!! It would be so much easier to write an anti paper, since there really are more arguments against the dp than for it. But, I do believe there are certain instances which demand the death penalty, and where the costs would be well worth it. Violence-prone offenders and those deemed irreformable for example, are a danger to the prison population and those who work there. I'm leaning toward a federal jurisdiction type system for capital cases, where in certain few cases appropriate for capital punishment, the states would pass the case on to the feds for review/prosecution/funding, lessening the financial burden for smaller counties, also removing partisan politics from county to county making the decisions less arbitrary. These cases would be thoroughly investigated, including dna testing where applicable, and both the defense and prosecution would be lead by professionals in capital cases. As for "cruel and unusual", I say the only part of the current system that applies to is the time between sentencing and execution. Telling someone "youre gonna die 8 months from now, at this time and date, " I feel is what violates the 8th amendment, not the actual act which has become almost TOO humane. Further comments are of course welcomed.

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phixion

05-27-2003, 08:35 PM

Speaking as someone who is in law school, I'd have to say that I seem to trust it a lot more than you do.

i dont trust the justice system, but i have a very personal reason as to why. if u want to rfmail me ill tell u cuz its a long story that i dont want to bore teh board with.... i truly believe that the justice system should b renamed to the vengeance system.

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Se7en

05-27-2003, 09:22 PM

But then again, as you've just demonstrated in the Israel/Palestine thread, you've got this swell, "if it ain't TOTALLY broke, don't fix it!"-mentality to situations where even only the minimum of "innocent" people are being killed.

"Acceptable losses" in cases like this are only for the weakminded and weakwilled.

Hey, I'm voicing my opinion, which you're free to disagree with and dislike. There's no need to resort to namecalling you know.

And frankly, I deserve a pat on the back.

I wrote a nice little post explaining exactly how I wanted you to fuck off, but then I erased it and put this post in its place, despite how pleasing the initial post was to my overactive id.

Who says I'm weakwilled?

Phixion: With all due respect, I'm not sure I want to go down that road with you.

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TheMojoPin

05-27-2003, 09:32 PM

Look, you want to be blunt and to the point about your feelings on the subject, expect others to do the same. It was a general statement, and if you consider yourself to be part of it, so be it. I'm glad you realized that tit for tat is fair play. You have your views, I have mine. It's what makes the world go 'round.

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Death Metal Moe

05-27-2003, 09:33 PM

i truly believe that the justice system should b renamed to the vengeance system

FUCK YEA!!

And that would make a KICK ASS Metal album name!!!

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FiveB247

05-28-2003, 10:20 AM

State Sponsored Murder...whoo hoo.

Has anyone ever met a person who is pro-death penalty, yet against abortion..or vice versa?

Ps..Moe, that pic of you in a wig is frightening.

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phixion

05-28-2003, 11:21 AM

Has anyone ever met a person who is pro-death penalty, yet against abortion..or vice versa?

okay those two subjects have nothing to do with each other. simply cuz a fetus is not a human life....u can disagree with me all u want but im just reiterating what the gov't said.

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TheMojoPin

05-28-2003, 12:15 PM

Doesn't mean the government can't be proven wrong.

But that being said, I'm pro-choice and anti-death penalty. The two oddly go hand in hand. Just like how many pro-death penalty supporters often end up being anti-abortion.

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FiveB247

05-28-2003, 12:55 PM

My correlation between the two issues was not in regards to a kill is a kill. It is in regards to the government deeming an action which is a moral decision either legitimate or not. Abortion is ok, death penalty is ok, euthanasia is wrong, etc.. It's moral decisions which are imposed by the government. (Not always a matter of right and wrong.)

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Bigden

05-29-2003, 11:13 AM

Pro-

1. DNA technology is at the point where we are sure of guilt- almost to 100% if we are sure, and a crime merits the "nuke" of all penalties then do it.

2. Some criminals are beyond rehabilitation, (serial killers)and keeping them in prison for life is a (sorry) costly proposition. Then a decision has to be made for the good of our society.

3. Going forward with the help of technology the chance of an innocent going to the chair should be very, very low. In the past convictions by words alone and scant evidence has put some innocents on death row. The system is not perfect- and only the ignorant think it can be.

4. I believe that some people need to be killed by the state for the crimes they committed. The closure for the families, and our society holding up a threat so people don't going around killing one another. Criminals are in the essence cowards- so they do fear the death penalty.

FiveB247

05-29-2003, 12:10 PM

2. Some criminals are beyond rehabilitation, (serial killers)and keeping them in prison for life is a (sorry) costly proposition. Then a decision has to be made for the good of our society.

3. Going forward with the help of technology the chance of an innocent going to the chair should be very, very low. In the past convictions by words alone and scant evidence has put some innocents on death row. The system is not perfect- and only the ignorant think it can be.

4. I believe that some people need to be killed by the state for the crimes they committed. The closure for the families, and our society holding up a threat so people don't going around killing one another. Criminals are in the essence cowards- so they do fear the death penalty.

2. Since when is the US jail system a serious method of rehabilitation? That's laughable. The cost is actually cheaper to keep a person in jail then to all the court fee's and such for the death penalty.

3. If the system isn't 100%, a life should not be taken. If there is the smallest bit of indecisive questioning about guilt, the death penalty is not reversible and therefore should not be used.

4. When a criminal commits a crime, he losses his freedoms...not his life. Some criminals do not consider consequences of their actions, others do. You mention closure? For who..the dead will not re-appear for the murder of a killer. Many times killers do not value life or their actions and wish to be killed. Since when can you get the outcomes you wish after committed such awful actions? Timothy McVeigh was killed and gladly accepted. Does that act bring back the hundreds he killed? Or is it simply some sort of vengeance towards a madman? Killing such people only does them a favor and installs vengeful attitudes in the citizens who aptly watch. And for those in society who don't care about life...it installs a set outcome for their wrong doings. If they hate life enough to kill someone and seek death...why give it to them?

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phixion

05-29-2003, 12:23 PM

Since when is the US jail system a serious method of rehabilitation?

yea, i completely agree. the US jail system is crap. it doenst serve to rehabilitate. and the CO's dont care about the prisoners, and u may not think they should. but no person deserves to b raped, he doesnt deserve to b killed, the CO's shouldnt use their jobs as power trips.

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Se7en

05-29-2003, 06:09 PM

Killing such people only does them a favor and installs vengeful attitudes in the citizens who aptly watch.

You know, in terms of the death penalty, vengeance is really, really underrated.

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HBox

05-29-2003, 06:13 PM

but no person deserves to b raped, he doesnt deserve to b killed, the CO's shouldnt use their jobs as power trips.

Don't speak in absolutes. Some of these people deserve exactly what they are getting.

ToddEVF

05-29-2003, 06:14 PM

Sorry but I'm pro DEATH Penalty.

same here brotha, if it were televised it would be a great deturent for crime


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Death Metal Moe

05-29-2003, 06:31 PM

Feel like I'm reading Death Metal lyrics! All this DEATH TALK! A KILL IS A KILL!!

HORNS UP! FUCK YEA!!!!

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phixion

05-29-2003, 07:59 PM

Don't speak in absolutes. Some of these people deserve exactly what they are getting.

ur rite.

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A.J.

05-30-2003, 02:55 AM

Timothy McVeigh was killed and gladly accepted. Does that act bring back the hundreds he killed?

Nope -- but it kept a jail cell free and kept him from spending the rest of his life living off of the dime of a government he hated.

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Bigden

05-30-2003, 03:49 AM

Typical Liberalism at work NOTHING IS 100 % In LIFE I guess you haven't figured that out yet. It must be nice to live in bliss like that. I understand one being opposed based on religious reasons, but don't be simple and think any system developed by humans is flawless. I believe that some crimes deserve death by the state- and DNA evidence (now can convict with 99% accuracy) insures that unlike in the past, we convict only the guilty.

FiveB247

05-30-2003, 06:04 AM

Sure he hated the government and he gladly accepted what he called "government assisted suicide". So where does this teach a lesson to those in society? If you kill, you will know your death awaits? Is that what you want to install in people? If you don't value life and are willing to take others life away, you certainly won't mind losing your own. Simply said, it gives people some sort of glimmer to know what they do will be known, remembered, etc...and not only that...they will die (which is what they want) for their actions.

Bigden, of course nothing in life is absolute. But that still doesn't take away from the fact that the government is enforcing a moral judgement on society. Not even to mention the cruel and unusal punishment arguement. The death penalty is a brutal, uncivilized method of punishment. It's probably fitting the US is one of the only modernized nations to use such methods.

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A.J.

05-30-2003, 06:15 AM

So where does this teach a lesson to those in society?

It doesn't. I never bought into that "death penalty as crime deterrent" arguement. Having to serve time should be the deterrent in the first place-- or at least the possiblilty of becoming the prison bitch. If that doesn't scare you straight, I don't know what will.

There are some evil people in this world who don't deserve to live here. I'm for getting rid of them.

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FiveB247

05-30-2003, 06:28 AM

AJinDC, if that were the case...where's button to press to begin armagedon?

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A.J.

05-30-2003, 06:36 AM

U.S Strategic Command -- Omaha, NE

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FUNKMAN

05-30-2003, 06:55 AM

same here brotha, if it were televised it would be a great deturent for crime

maybe? but it may work the other way...

some people who feel their life is worthless and place no value on other people's lives may kill just to get themselves on TV for their "15 min of fame"

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TheMojoPin

05-30-2003, 08:25 AM

Wow, people are still so quick to ignore "cruel and unusual."

Face fact: we ARE the good guys. And we can't stay that way if we start murdering people anyway we want to, just because we THINK they deserve it. If we're not sure, the numbers of innocent people killed will just rise and rise...at what point will some of you think that is unacceptable? 100? 500? 1,000? As our prison population explodes with no significant modifications to the system, these numbers can do nothing but increase unless changes are made. I think the death penalty SHOULD work and SHOULD be effective. But to be that, it needs to suspended immediately and radically reworked and revolutionized. Why are some of the pro-death penalty here so adamant about this failed system that they don't even think it should be put on hold temporarily?

Until there's a COMPLETELY 100% effective way to prove people beyond a shadow of a doubt that every person killed by their own government deserved to be killed by their own government, it's practically the very definition of "cruel and unusual." Can YOU think of anything more "cruel and unusual" than being murdered by your own government for something you didn't do?

We ARE the greatest nation on Earth by far, but this is nothing but a HUGE black eye for all of us. Again, just do a quick search of the other countries that fully endorse captial punishment. Practically all of them are countries we readily label our "enemies". This is NOT the company we wish to keep.

For whatever reason, our country has an underlying aura of violence surrounding it, and nobody is doing anything to attempt to change that. It has nothing to do with guns, but simply the "fact" that more members of our population are for whatever more inclined to murder somone than any other country on Earth. I don't know why or how, but you only have to look at the numbers to see that. This needs to change. But instead we simply continue to use a prison system that doesn't work and is falling apart and a death penalty that serves to accomplish nothing.

I remember stating in another thread that in the late 1800's and early 1900's, the world marvelled at the modern, effective and brilliant prisons being developed in America. Is it it too much to expect that as our population and criminals change, so should the system that serves to protect/penalize them?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-30-03 @ 12:37 PM

BronxBabe

05-30-2003, 08:45 AM

I definitely believe in the "an eye for an eye" concept.

I think that if the death penalty had no "kinks" it would definitely deter criminals, but, as is true with everything in this world, it isn't always carried out properly.

But, YES, I am "pro-death penalty"

FiveB247

05-30-2003, 08:52 AM

An eye for an eye...what century are we in again? It's always nice to hear about the technologies and thoughts of a society growing simultaneously through the decades.

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TheMojoPin

05-30-2003, 08:59 AM

but, as is true with everything in this world, it isn't always carried out properly.

But this isn't just "something going wrong"...this a case of a government willingly murdering innocent civilians again and again. I am pro-death penalty as well...but only of a death penalty that WORKS.

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JerryTaker

05-30-2003, 09:02 AM

blah, blah, blah....

I am pro death penalty and pro abortion...

bottom line is we need less people in the world... enough already!!!

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Heavy

05-30-2003, 09:38 AM

bottom line is we need less people in the world... enough already!!!

Truer words never spoken! Anyway we can take people off the planet is good as far as I'm concerned. Well, within reason. If a baby isnt wanted then so be it. if someone is in prison for life theres no reason they should be fed and cared for instead of killed!

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Heavy

05-30-2003, 09:46 AM

Until there's a COMPLETELY 100% effective way to prove people beyond a shadow of a doubt that every person killed by their own government deserved to be killed by their own government

Hey Mojo, what about this akbar guy that threw the granade into the command tent in Kuwait? It's obvious to everyone he did it and he admits to it. Why should he not be killed?

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FiveB247

05-30-2003, 10:20 AM

bottom line is we need less people in the world... enough already!!!

Malthus..is that you?

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TheMojoPin

05-30-2003, 11:05 AM

Hey Mojo, what about this akbar guy that threw the granade into the command tent in Kuwait? It's obvious to everyone he did it and he admits to it. Why should he not be killed?

Of course. I stated very early on and flat-out that I WANT there to be a working death penalty. Far too many crimes practically DEMAND it. But as of right now, if this man were to be tried in civilian court (This isn't the best example you could have thought of, because he might he tried by the millitary, and this isn't a "civilian" crime), the system that would sentence him to death is still the same one that may and alreayd has sentenced innocent people to death. For the system to work, it needs to have universal rules/appliances/rulings. So "Akbar" is sentenced to death for a crime he clearly committed...but that still doesn't change the fact the next person behind him may NOT be guilty and is still far too likely to executed despite this.

Again, I'm not saying abolish the death penalty. Simply put it on "hold" so it can be updated, corrected and hopefully made more certain and efficient.

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