The Earth being the center of the universe?

[Doogie]

HK, who actually came up with the concept of the Earth being the center of the universe? I dont mean a specific person, but rather a time frame. Also, was the 'Earth being the center of the universe' an argument that is used anywhere in the Bible? Thank you in advance for any help you may give on this topic.

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[Wormwood]

I'm not sure but I'm going to go with the Catholic church, I don't know if they started that teaching but they did a good job of persecuting people for hundreds of years into believing it.

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[Tall_James]

I thought I was the center of the universe.

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[canofsoup15]

I think it was capirnicus, but then again im retarted, and im pretty sure the bible says nothing about it.

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[furie]

I think it was capirnicus, but then again im retarted,


WHAT?!? Nicolaus Copernicus proved that the Earth WAS NOT the center of the universe. I think you just set science back 500 years with that statement. Copernicus stated that:

There is no one centre in the universe.

The Earth's centre is not the centre of the universe.

The centre of the solar system is the sun.

The distance from the Earth to the sun is imperceptible compared with the distance to the stars.

The rotation of the Earth accounts for the apparent daily rotation of the stars.

The apparent annual cycle of movements of the sun is caused by the Earth revolving round it.

The apparent retrograde motion of the planets is caused by the motion of the Earth from which one observes.


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[furie]

As for what the bible says, it doesn't say much on the subject, and what it does say is wrong. The Book of Genesis states that our planet was created three days before the sun, moon, and stars (Gen. 1:14).

I think Ptomey was the first to declare it a scientific fact after he had completed some experiments, but the idea has been around since pre-history.


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[East Side Dave]

I think Christopher Columbus discovered fishing.

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[IrishAlkey]

No, no, silly!

Fish discovered Columbo, who discovered rubber.

Got it?

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[TooCute]

I googled "bible earth center universe" and found this:
http://home.teleport.com/~salad/4god/geo.htm

There is not one statement in the bible saying the planet
earth is the center of the universe.

None.

The planet earth being described as the center of the
universe was promoted by the Alexandrian astronomer
and mathematician Ptolemy in the 2nd century AD. In
Ptolemy's system, the earth is at the center of spheres
having stars and such attached to them that rotate
around the earth. Ptolemy based his system on earlier
work from Aristotle, while Aristotle built on theories
from Eudoxus and Callippus. Later on in the 16th
century, Copernicus suggested a helio-centric or sun
centered universe.

etc. etc.

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[sr71blackbird]

Genesis has a description of the Earth within a sphere that has the moon and sun revolving around it with water (???) on the outside of the sphere that drips through "flood gates" that allow rain to fall. On the inside walls of this sphere are the stars we see at night and below the surface of the Earth is "Sheol" where Hell is located and oil flows. (Shell Oil?)
From this description, its easy to see how early cultures thought the earth was the center. From the ground, the Moon and the Sun seem the same size, but we know its far from true, but it obviously made people think it was true. Until Gallelio looked at the moon magnified, it was assumed it was a smooth flat disk. What he saw was craters and imperfections that shook the pillars if ideas at the time. Before that, people assumed that God made it and therefore it was perfect and smooth. It was a shock.

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[jamesdiggy]

According to the wrapper, the center of the universe is nougat.

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[canofsoup15]

Like i said

but then again im retarted


At least i had something to do with Earth and Center of the Universe. lol. :)

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[East Side Dave]

Columbo, who discovered rubber


I got it! I do!!!






















*asking sock puppets to explain*

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[TheMojoPin]

Remember, the Bible was written when people were even STUPIDER than they are now.

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[HordeKing1]

I believe that Aristotle was the first philosopher to write about the idea later adopted by many religions that earth is the center of the universe.

TOO CUTE - Google has TONS of references to "Biblical references to earth as center of universe" and "religion and geoncentricism" (the belief that earth is center of universe).

Some examples:

1 Chronicles 16:30: " Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

Psalm 93:1 "The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is established, that it cannot be moved.

Psalm 96:10: Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously...."

Joshua 10:13: "And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies." So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

II Timothy 3:16 - The Bible is authoritative in all that it touches upon, science included. One commentator noted that either God writes what he means and means what he writes, or else he passes off mere appearances as truths and ends up the liar.

Protestant leaders like Luther, Calvin, and Melanchthon led in citing Scripture against Copernicus and in urging repression of Copernicans. Luthor called Copirnicus a "fool" in 1539. Furthermore, he felt astronomy was
"superstition," and "idolatry" and a violation of the first commandment.


It should be noted that the geocentricism endorsed by religions is entriely in keeping with androcentrocism and patriarchy (still practiced today in most cultures.)

There's a really good website (from Counsil for Secular Humanis) which you may be interested in taking a quick look at.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/avalos_18_4.html

Among my favorite quotes from this site is the brilliant introduction to Stephen Hawkings "A Brief History of Time" by Carl Sagan. Sagan wrote, "Hawking outlines "a universe with no edge in space, no beginning or end in time, and nothing for a Creator to do."

Finally, it is noted that there some fundamental creationists STILL believe in the literary Aristotlian/biblical version of geocentricism. Then again, there is still a "Flat Earth Society." (I wish I could say I was kidding)



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[A.J.]

centre


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[TooCute]

TOO CUTE - Google has TONS of references to "Biblical references to earth as center of universe" and "religion and geoncentricism" (the belief that earth is center of universe).


HK - none of those explicitly state that the earth is the center of the universe - they merely state that the earth is stable, that the sun rises/sets etc. I really don't think there's any place in the bible that says "the earth is the center of the universe", but then I never did read the entire thing.

For example, from <a href="http://www.apologeticspress.org/faq/r&r8612a.htm">this website</a> (a website which is devoted to explaining why all of the discrepencies that skeptics use to show that the bible is "wrong" are false; there are indeed as you say many sites on geocentrism and the bible, and many of them suggest exactly what this one does...)

One of the passages used to defend the biblical basis of geocentricity was Joshua 10:12-14, and later references to the same event, in which Joshua prayed, ?Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; And thou, Moon, in the valley of Aijalon? (v. 12), that he might defeat the numerous armies assembled against his people. God immediately answered Joshua?s prayer, and in the following verse he wrote: ?And the Sun stood still, and the Moon stayed.? Keil and Delitzsch have suggested that either the day appeared long to the warriors of Israel because of the greatness of the task they performed (i.e., defeating the enemy), or that God miraculously caused the day to be lengthened so the Lord?s army could perform its task. The former is consistent with similar language in other parts of the Old Testament, and the latter explanation is totally consistent with God?s infinite power over the Universe (1982, 2:106-112). In any case, as Joshua goes on to say in verse 14, ?there was no day like that before it or after it.? Thus, whether miraculous or not, to say that these verses teach that the Earth continues to stand still, and that the Earth is the center of the Universe, is both a gross misinterpretation and a misapplication of the verse. This passage does not teach geocentricity, despite Calvin?s claims to the contrary.

In addition to Joshua 10, Calvin used Psalm 93:1 in defense of geocentricity. The verse simply suggests that the Earth is stable, and cannot be moved, but is it trying to say that the Earth is totally motionless in every sense? As the passage is primarily concerned with God?s majesty and power, it is more likely that the psalmist is saying, ?Who but God could move the Earth?? Besides, the Earth is set in an unchanging orbit around the Sun, all the while rotating at a steady speed on a fixed axis.

Either way, it's in the interpretation. People believed that the earth was the center of the universe, because humans were the center of God's creation. My only point was that it doesn't explicitly say "the earth is the center of the universe".

btw in the earlier link I posted they mention where Aristotle might have gotten his ideas about the earth and the universe. Don't really know how reliable it is. You'd have to do a little research on your own.

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This message was edited by TooCute on 5-29-03 @ 9:48 AM

[JerryTaker]

Protestant leaders like Luther, Calvin, and Melanchthon led in citing Scripture against Copernicus and in urging repression of Copernicans. Luthor called Copirnicus a "fool" in 1539. Furthermore, he felt astronomy was
"superstition," and "idolatry" and a violation of the first commandment.


Clearly, in his time, Copernicus was <I>not</I> a "patriot"....

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[sr71blackbird]

Its natural (almost child-like) to think that YOU are the beginning and end of the universe. Likewise, its easy to make the leap that we were "there first" in alot of our philosophy. Evey child looking out a car window at night says "Mom! The Moons following us!". Its natural that we think this way, since we are governed by our own perceptions. Everyone thinks how this affects him or her. Its when we become enlightened that things are not as they appear that we begin to see how things truly are. Its because of this that our culture has advaced as it has and why other cultures view us as arrogant or base when we are not as strict as they are and they think of us as "filthy" or "undiciplined". Our nature in America is the reason why we have microwave ovens in the world today...lol...because we take that "leap". Be proud of who we are!!!

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[Heavy]

There is no one centre in the universe.

The Earth's centre is not the centre of the universe.

The centre of the solar system is the sun.

The distance from the Earth to the sun is imperceptible compared with the distance to the stars.

The rotation of the Earth accounts for the apparent daily rotation of the stars.

The apparent annual cycle of movements of the sun is caused by the Earth revolving round it.

The apparent retrograde motion of the planets is caused by the motion of the Earth from which one observes.




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[HordeKing1]

TC - To my knowledge the bible doesn't state explicitly that the earth is the center of the universe. It has been interpreted that way by those who wrote it and their decendants toi perpetuate their self important ideology.

Only by supressing the truth that our tiny little planet is an insignificant speck in an infinitely expanding cosmos (which is still accelerating btw) could the idea of the importance of man as god's creation be sustained. Anyone who doubts this should take a trip to the planetarium at the museum of natural history. Makes one appreciate the insignificance of earth, (in the backyard of an insignificant nebulae, itself far off center from the galactic cluster, itself almost inconceivably removed from the center of the universe.)

3 people helped us move closer to this understanding and by doing so changed our conception of the world; They showed that the world and life is not immutable but is rather constantly in a state of flux. Copernicus (earth revovles around sun) Darwin (everything evolves) and Frued (idea of unconscious mind and early childhood trauma producing adult behavior.)

Of course, there were others equally important for example:

1. Mathes - Principle of Population. People and animals haven't overrun earth because of a high death rate and food shortage.
2. Linnaeus - Classified plants and animals into hierarchal categories using anatomical structure. This allows tracing the relatedness of all organisms.
3. Lamarck - Theory of Acquired Characteristics (which was wrong of course, but still showed that life was not immutable.)
4.Cuvier - Catastrophism - Earth was destroyed several times by God in catastrophes. Different flora and fauna in the stratum represent different times that god destroyed then recreated the world. (An early version of a non perfect god).
7. Lyle - Uniformitarianism - Changes to the earth occurred over millennium by natural physical forces that are at work now, (wind, rain, earthquakes, etc.) Lyle wrote The Principles of Geology.


BTW, I'm pretty sure that Aristotle was the one who developed the geocentric model, but I'm relying on a philosophy course I took about 20 years ago.



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[East Side Dave]

Aristotle didn't invent the geocentric model, Horde King. Paul-O did.

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[TooCute]

1. Mathes ? Principle of Population. People and animals haven?t overrun earth because of a high death rate and food shortage.

That was actually Malthus. Just in case anyone felt like looking him up. Don't want to upset the <a href="http://desip.igc.org/malthus/"> International society of Malthus</a>.

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This message was edited by TooCute on 5-31-03 @ 1:01 PM

[ChickenHawk]

Technically, EVERYTHING is the center of the universe
(Earth, the Sun, Tall James), assuming space is infinite
in all directions. If the universe has no definitive end, it
cannot have a definitive center.

...That being said, I claim my toilet as the center of the
universe.


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[grlNIN]

I don't think i have ever laughed as hard about the universe as i have while reading this thread.

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