View Full Version : Which Came First Man or Woman?
Reephdweller
05-30-2003, 08:28 PM
I'm not asking in the biblical sense, but more along the lines of historically and scientifically, is there any evidence that suggested man appeared before woman on the planet,
or vice versa?
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IrishAlkey
05-30-2003, 09:31 PM
I came first and got yelled at for it.
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silera
05-30-2003, 09:38 PM
reef-The egg.
alkey-liar.
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IrishAlkey
05-30-2003, 09:48 PM
I yelled at myself, stupid.
Go shave your asshole.
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silera
05-30-2003, 09:51 PM
Oh yeah.
You're right.
BRB!
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TooCute
05-30-2003, 10:01 PM
You can't really have one without the other. Extremely generally speaking, there are several pros and con for organisms to "want" to be asexual, and several pros and cons for evolving sexual reproduction.
In literature dealing with the actual evolution of sexual reproduction, the initial reason for organisms to evolve sex is largely ignored in favor of discussing the subsequent advantages/disadvantages of it, however, one sometimes reads that it may have evolved initially as a means of repairing "broken" DNA, that is, two little organisms would get together and trade DNA. Who knows. This is kind of irrelevant to the question anyhow.
There are lots of organisms that release their gametes (the cells that need to get together to make the offspring; our eggs and sperm are gametes) that are all identical and don't have sexes.
When those gametes are different from each other ("anisogamy"), then you have sexes. ALL anisogamous animals have only two sexes - egg making and sperm making (=females and males). There are several popular theories for why anisogamy (that is, the sexes) evolved in the first place. One of them figures that reproductive strategies that maximize the number of offspring that you have are the ones that are going to evolve (that's just Darwin. Survival of the fittest. The fittest are the ones that have the most babies like them). There are two ways to ensure this: one is to have just a few gametes that you make really big so you're sure that other gametes will run into them and fertilize them, and make sure they have enough energy stored in them that they will live (that sounds like eggs right?). The other is to invest a little bit of energy in to TONS of gametes and figure that a few of them will actually run into another gamete and fertilize it and a few of those will actually survive.
You figure that both of these strategies evolved together - that as some organisms took the course of making fewer, larger gametes, other organisms could take advantage of that by making fewer, tiny gametes (why make an 'average' number of 'average' sized gametes when making a 'gazillion' (to use the technical term) 'tiny' gamete works just as well, as long as someone else is using their energy to make the big gametes? - and vice versa for the big gametes)
So really, neither woman or man evolved first. They evolved together.
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irishkb
05-30-2003, 10:02 PM
wow too cute i think this might have been more of a joke.. but thanks for the info... i think
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guttersnipe
05-31-2003, 02:27 AM
Too Cute? Can I hire you to home school my children?
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PanterA
05-31-2003, 05:03 AM
first was Adam, then came Eve.
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Arienette
05-31-2003, 05:26 AM
adam was evil.
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sr71blackbird
05-31-2003, 05:34 AM
I remember reading in National Geographic that we are all descended from a woman, who gave birth to Homo Sapiens-Sapiens. Obviously, the children must have either inbred or mated with other Homo types that were around at the time. They called this woman "Eve" and she was suppose to be the originator, as she passed on her DNA into subsequent females and whos DNA can be traced even in todays females.
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TooCute
05-31-2003, 08:43 AM
I remember reading in National Geographic that we are all descended from a woman, who gave birth to Homo Sapiens-Sapiens. Obviously, the children must have either inbred or mated with other Homo types that were around at the time. They called this woman "Eve" and she was suppose to be the originator, as she passed on her DNA into subsequent females and whos DNA can be traced even in todays females
I KNOW I posted about this but I can't seem to find the thread. Maybe I just talked about it on the air and I'm nuts. You're thinking of the so-called "mitochondrial eve". Mitochondrial DNA is passed from a mother (NOT fathers) into her offspring, and is not subject to recombination like 'regular' genomic DNA is (like when a sperm and an egg get together, the 'regular' DNA swap bits and pieces of themselves, so the child doesn't have an exact copy of either the mom or dad's DNA - it's a sort of mix) - so offspring have exact copies of mom's mitochondrial DNA, and her mom's mitochondrial DNA, and so forth - except that mitochondrial DNA DOES mutate, so the copies aren't totally exact (however, scientists can extimate how quilckly the mitochondrial DNA mutates, and use that to figure out how long ago it was that mitochondrial eve existed).
Mitochondrial Eve was NOT the first Homo sapiens sapiens; she is just the first Homo sapiens sapiens that all Homo sapiens sapiens today can trace their ancestry back to - kind of like the way all throroughbred horses can trace their ancestry back to the Godolphin Arabian, Byerley Turk or
the Darley Arabian or all Morgan horses can be traced back to Justin Morgan's horse "Figure". Well okay no, not exactly, because those were in fact the founding horses of their breeds - but if you can imagine the tree of descent from those horses - how it spreads out generation to generation as more and more offspring are born and have offspring of their own - that's kind of what the tree from Mitochondrial Eve to us looks like.
There were OTHER females at the same time as Eve who were having offspring; it just happened that those lineages went extinct (kind of like, once there were lots of Mohicans, but when Wes Studi killed Eric Schweig, that left Russell Means to be able to tell Daniel Day Lewis that "I am the last of the Mohicans" - and then there were no more Mohicans when he died).
So Mitochondrial Eve isn't the first woman, our ultimate grandmother; she's just the one that everyone today happens to share. If you want something a little bit clearer and perhaps more in depth I think that <a href="http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Facility/4118/misc/eve.html">this website</a> does an admirable job explaining the concept of mitochondrial eve and why she must exist.
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TooCute
05-31-2003, 09:02 AM
Too Cute? Can I hire you to home school my children?
How much ya payin', and will you pay for me to relocate to DC?
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The Chairman
05-31-2003, 11:53 AM
There is nothing sexier than a smart woman and no organ more sexy than her brain.
cK1
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IrishAlkey
06-02-2003, 04:46 PM
It's a good thing your dick is small enough to fit in her ear, Kagster.
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HordeKing1
06-02-2003, 09:04 PM
This was discussed in another thread.
A species by definition involves breeding. (Only members of the same species can mate and produce viable offspring). Man and women evolved simultaneously.
The woefully named Eve hypothesis, is pretty much confirmed by computer analysis and by tracing lineage through mitochondrial DNA.
Lets say there was originally a breeding population of 1000 women. Every one of these women had 2 kids, but one woman had 3 kids, and all her decendants had 3 kids. Within a relatively few years, she outbred all the other woman combined and in essense eliminated their genes from the population. So all human's are decendant's of this one woman who outbred the others. We can tell about when the split occured (about 150,000 years ago) by diffrentiating the degree of difference in the mitochondrial dna of the woman of today with fossils before that time. Our species is young.
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TooCute
06-03-2003, 06:39 AM
A species by definition involves breeding. (Only members of the same species can mate and produce viable offspring). Man and women evolved simultaneously.
There are MANY definitions of species. I believe that this, too was posted about sometime within the last year or two but I can't find that thread. Only one definition of the word 'species' involves breeding. Others look at various other factors, such as phylogeny, their ecology, their evolutionary history, etc...
So all human's are decendant's of this one woman who outbred the others.
Clarification: not necessarily outbred in the sense that she had more offspring and her offspring had more offspring than anyone else, but in that sense that her offspring may have survived when others didn't. Imagine, for example, a large natural disaster or plague that decimated most of the population of Homo sapiens at the time. It's possible that all survivors happened to carry mtDNA from "eve". It's also probable (look back at that link I posted earlier) that the current "eve" was not the original "eve". Of course, in a finite population, ALL modern gene copies evolved from single ancestral copies.
We can tell about when the split occured (about 150,000 years ago) by diffrentiating the degree of difference in the mitochondrial dna of the woman of today with fossils before that time.
?? I wasn't aware that molecular clocks were calibrated by looking at the DNA of fossils - they can extract enough DNA to do this?! Jurassic Park isn't so far off as I thought, then! :)
The way that molecular clocks are calibrated is to look at the differences between the DNA of two lineages (for example, humans and chimps), and then to estimate the time of their most recent common ancestor (from who all of their respective DNA, regardless of how different it is must have evolved - imagine a V. At the base of the V is the ancestor, and the two descendents at the tips of the V both must have gotten their DNA from that ancestor. Like a bunch of siblings who, regardless of how different they are, all got their DNA from the same source - their parents) - the time of the most recent common ancestor is generally estimated by looking at the age of fossils (not their DNA as far as I know), and saying well, if there are x number of differences between human DNA and chimp DNA, and if their most recent common ancestor probably lived about y number of years ago according to the fossils, then we must have x/y mutations/year (that is a rate!).
The reason mitochondrial DNA is so special is that it is (supposedly - this is debated) not subject to selection like 'regular' (genomic) DNA - that is, every generation you should be able to expect it to collect the same number of mutations as the generation before. The other way that rates of mitochondrial DNA are estimated is to look at the differences between the offspring of one parent and compare their mtDNA and extimate from the differences.
Of course, as with anything in science, there is lots of debate - not as to the existence of mitochondrial eve, which as HK stated is a mathematical necessity/fact, but as to when she existed. The rate of mutations and their accumulation in mtDNA is still being debated.
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Death Metal Moe
06-03-2003, 08:51 AM
We should just ask the aliens that seeded our planet with us.
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This message was edited by Death_Metal Moe on 6-3-03 @ 1:05 PM
We should just ask the aliens that seeded out planet with us.
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HordeKing1
06-03-2003, 08:58 AM
We can tell about when the split occured (about 150,000 years ago) by diffrentiating the degree of difference in the mitochondrial dna of the woman of today with fossils before that time.
I took an evolutionary biology course a couple of years ago (as a refresher) and the professor was actively involved in this research. From what I recall, there were generalist from the Human Genome Project working on this as well as people specializing in "junk DNA." The MDNA doesn't affect phenotype but is always transmitted to female offspring.
BTW, the Eve hypothesis doesn't postulate extinctions of populations based on natural disaster, but rather purely on outbreeding the competition. Of course natural disasters happened too, but even w/o them, outbreeding accounts for our common maternal anscestor.
Also, although there are many definitions of species, don't they all require that the organisms in question be able to interbreed? After speciation for example, the 2 species can no longer produce viable offspring. (They may be able to physically have sex, but not produce viable kids).
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Death Metal Moe
06-03-2003, 09:07 AM
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Will you stop hamming it up for once, you fat asshole.
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TooCute
06-03-2003, 09:56 AM
Quote:
We can tell about when the split occured (about 150,000 years ago) by diffrentiating the degree of difference in the mitochondrial dna of the woman of today with fossils before that time.
I took an evolutionary biology course a couple of years ago (as a refresher) and the professor was actively involved in this research.
Extracting mtDNA from fossils to calibrate molecular clocks? Where has this been published?
BTW, the Eve hypothesis doesn't postulate extinctions of populations based on natural disaster, but rather purely on outbreeding the competition. Of course natural disasters happened too, but even w/o them, outbreeding accounts for our common maternal anscestor.
I didn't realize that the hypothesis explicitely postulated either. I thought that the original studies done in Wilson's lab out at UC Berkeley (Cann et al., Vigilante et al., etc...) simply calculated that the gene tree that includes chimps (the outgroup used to "calibrate" the molecular clock) and humans coalesced whenever it did (I don't remember how long ago they said it coaslesced. Note also that they did not compare human mtDNA with fossil human mtDNA to calibrate their clock. They did it by comparing to present day chimp mtDNA.).
Coalescence theory doesn't really involve WHY certain copies of a given gene aren't passed on to the next generation.
Also, although there are many definitions of species, don't they all require that the organisms in question be able to interbreed? After speciation for example, the 2 species can no longer produce viable offspring. (They may be able to physically have sex, but not produce viable kids)
Close, and generally true, but it doesn't always work this way.
There are certainly examples of distinct species that produce fertile offspring. Take for example, members of the genus Anas (ducks). Mallards can interbreed with pintails (less common) and with black ducks (more common) - I think to the point that someone at Cornell (those wacky bird people) was telling me that black ducks are endangered because they're intrebreeding so much with the ubiquitous mallard duck. There are many other examples like this.
Or take for example, a "ring species" hybridization can occur between populations that are adjacent to each other, but the populations that aren't adjascent, can't. (i.e. say populations occur from east to west in a line, A-B-C-D. A&B can breed, B&C can breed and C&D can breed. But A&D can't.) It's a bit of a gray area.
The most widely accepted definition (or the most popular? whatever) of a species was Mayr's biological species concept, which defines a species as a groups of actually or potentially interbreeding populations which are reproductively isolated from other such groups (I think that's almost if not exactly verbatim - I guess I did learn something when I was studying for prelims last year!!) (under this definition, I guess all those ducks aren't in fact distinct species? I don't know...)
The problem with that is that it defines species in terms of animals TODAY.
There are also the evolutionary species concept (single ancestor-descendant lineage), phylogenetic species concept (smallest monophyletic group of common ancestry), recognition species concept (sharing a common fertilization system), cohesion species concept (most inclusive population with potential for phenotypic cohesion), ecological species concept (lineage that occupies its own adaptive zone and evolves on its own), and the internodal species concept (organisms are conspecific because they are members of a genealogical network between two permanent splitting events ) (thank you Doug Futuyma! I didn't remember some of these so I looked them up in my notes from his class)
You'll note that most of these do not explicitely require species to be able to produce viable offspring exclusively with conspecifics, per se. That's just sort of the outcome of it.
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TooCute
06-03-2003, 09:57 AM
It's a good thing your dick is small enough to fit in her ear, Kagster.
My ears aren't THAT big.
And who are you calling fat, Moe?
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TheMojoPin
06-03-2003, 12:51 PM
Mmmmmm, Vulcan-love...
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guttersnipe
06-03-2003, 01:07 PM
Too Cute? Can I hire you to home school
my children?
How much ya payin', and will you pay for me to relocate
to DC?
Ooops, I forgot for a moment that I am no longer rich
like I was on paper a couple of year ago. In fact we're
bankrupt, have downsized our cars, and are moving
out of our palatial estate and into a rental townhouse
in less than two weeks.
I guess I'll have to get back to you on that in a couple
of years. Are there any veterinary schools in the DC
area? Hmm, I may be onto something. Bring the
Chairman with you, of course, so he can be my son's
shrink.
You can help us keep Baby Shu Shu alive, too, right?
~guttersnipe
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The Chairman
06-03-2003, 02:13 PM
I have a B.S. in Biology. Various other high level science degrees.
I took Evolutionary Biology, Biochemistry, Genetics, Anthropology, Animal Physiology, etc. etc.
Everything Too Cute (B.S. Biology, Brown University) and currently finishing her Ph.D in Biology and Evolution under a world famous Yale professor....is CORRECT.
What is wrong with us just letting someone who knows what they are talking about answer a question?
I know nothing about plumbing. If I wanted advice on how to snake my toilet I'd call a plumber.
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The Chairman
06-03-2003, 02:36 PM
I did not realize as I read this that this thread was in the "Ask the Horde King Forum." I did not intend to direct my post at any particular person who posted in this thread.
HK can answer anyway he wants I guess, since it's his forum and the person is asking him.
But I guess my broader issue is whether this is a forum for asking questions and allowing anyone who is an authority on the subject to answer, or just a forum to ask questions like Dear Abby or Ann Landers where we are just seeking either the ADVICE or OPINION of one person.
Some of the responses by various people in this forum have been incorrect. I have also seen advice posted in this forum by various people that can be dangerous (in my opinion) if followed.
Perhaps a clarification is called for.
Examples of what I'm talking about:
Does the earth revolve around the sun?
Irrefutable fact. I can look that up in Google.
Is abortion ever right? Is it ever wrong? The death penalty? Is there a God? Is religion good?
Opinion. I can ask someone wherever and hope they give me a sensitive answer in their opinion that's light on the hubris and doesn't make me feel stupid or hurt if I don't agree.
Should I break up with my girlfriend because (fill in the blank).....
Opinion. Ask away......
Should I stop taking my medication?
Ask YOUR doctor or medical professional.
How do I go about finding out if I have a problem with...or to get help with....or know if I need to.....?
Ask away.
That's my answer to "Ask The Chairman."
But I don't have a forum....nor want one.
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Reephdweller
06-03-2003, 03:36 PM
Chairman, even though I did ask this question in HKs forum it is open to any who has the answer. Or at least some good theories. Between HordeKing and Too Cute I got lots of good information so I appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't necessarily have to be HK that has the answer though.
So, I don't know if others have problems with you or Too Cute or whoever answering instead, but it don't really matter to me because I was just looking for an answer and I love the discussion that's been going on.
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monsterone
06-03-2003, 10:22 PM
what i rememeber: women (XX), men(XY); first there are women(XX)-mutation-"/" breaks off from "X"-now there are men also(XY)
The Chairman
06-03-2003, 10:31 PM
what i rememeber: women (XX), men(XY): first there are women(XX)-mutation-"/" breaks off from "X"-now there are men also(XY)
Did you read that in The Onion?
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Does this mean that all relationships are incestuous? Ewwww!
FUNKMAN
06-04-2003, 08:02 AM
i dated a Dominican girl and she would get me worked up beyond belief... the first time we made it all I did was insert it and "shplatt", didn't have time to extract it one time...
all i heard was
"Oh Ron"
sorry, that "little" experience just strikes me funny for some reason...
and on that note I would say the man came first...
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HordeKing1
06-04-2003, 10:11 AM
Of course, anyone can respond.
But the Chairman is right that there is a lot of dangerous information out there, especially psychological advice, which is well-meaning but can make the person feel worse when reading it, or much worse.
I think everyone knows that anyone who responds to people calling out for help has good intentions. Just remember, "First do no harm."
what i rememeber: women (XX), men(XY): first there are women(XX)-mutation-"/" breaks off from "X"-now there are men also(XY)
I can't even begin to understand this. Perhaps it was an abortive attempt at how cows speciated? (Through mootation) (Groan.)
FUNKMAN - A guy can almost always orgasm first, but if you take care of your partner's needs (i.e. let her come first) it will be a much better experience for both of you.
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FUNKMAN
06-04-2003, 10:20 AM
FUNKMAN - A guy can almost always orgasm first, but if you take care of your partner's needs (i.e. let her come first) it will be a much better experience for both of you.
Horde,
no problem, i been working on it and now i do get to extract it one time...
:)
i hear ya though... i usually have fish fingers and a funky moustache before i even start getting mine...
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