PISSING IN THE GENE POOL

[Hawiian shirt craig]

no, not alkey having kids, i'm being serious.

Think about this. Medical technology can adjust for most minor defects in people, ie glasses, leg braces, corrective surgery. fine. Think about this though... lets say someone who is born with a degenerative disorder of the liver, gets a transplant. we have allowed this person to live indefinately, but they still have the bad gene that caused their disorder.

When this person has kids, the bad gene is passed on to one, two etc, kids. thus multiplying a negative gene that should have ended with him. Even things like glasses mess it up. for example someone who can't see their hand in front of their face without glasses wouldn't have made it in the ice age, b/c they simply would have starved. now those sight genes are staying b/c of glasses and corrective surgery. its all a bitch.

I dont deny anyone's right to medical technology, drugs, etc. And i dont advocate like sterilization or anything.

BUT what do you guys think will be the long term effect on relatively recent advances, even as simple as glasses? little to no evolution could possibly have occured or been interupted in the last 300 years in which most of this stuff came into being. I mean if we overide natural selection, aren't we fucking up the system that made us what we are? stupid monkeys died, so the whole species got smarter. u know? (pardon the over simplification)

-Hawiian Shirt Craig
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T
HAVE NICE THINGS!!

<img src=http://www.richstillwell.com/HSC.gif>

anal on the boss' couch since 1982....

[IrishAlkey]

You are no longer allowed to think on your own.

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[Death Metal Moe]

I'll tell you what actually happens. My family has Cystic Fibrosis in their genes. So my family members have been getting tested to see if they are carriers of the gene.

None of them were I believe. And thank goodness that all my cousin's kids have been born healthy.

But what you should do is be tested for the genes that they can detect and be open to abortion if during the pregnancy you detect a serious problem.

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[Hawiian shirt craig]

MOE- well the way i see it, if medical technology allows someone with such an unfortunate condition to have children, is it morally right for them to do so? you know? i mean if ur dieing wish is to have a child and u do, and u pass on even just the gene, its very selfish.

but i think ur family is being responsible. my view point weird.

-Hawiian Shirt Craig
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T
HAVE NICE THINGS!!

<img src=http://www.richstillwell.com/HSC.gif>

anal on the boss' couch since 1982....

[DarkHippie]

"Oh, brave new world, that has such people in't!" --William Shakespeare "The Tempest"

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[Se7en]

I listened to the show a bit the other day and I was disturbed my some of the things Ron was advocating.

I can't see a great deal of wrong, morally or ethically, in using advancements in genetics to cure various physical illnesses or infirmaries. If it's possible for us to wipe out something like cerebal palsy, or sickle-cell-anemia, etc., that's great.

But I think Laura Brooks had a real point. People WON'T stop there. Suddenly, you'll have people creating "designer babies" - they'll be able to pick and choose which traits their child will have. Don't immediately scoff at that like it's science fiction - if the technology to do this becomes available (and it will eventually do so), than unless the government not just in this country but on a WORLD STAGE puts some sort of restrictions on the process, than we could conceivably reach a parallel with Huxley's Brave New World.

Furthermore, just like the book, we'll enter into a whole new class / caste system, not just of socioeconomic difference (the rich, it is likely, will be the only ones who can afford the process) but of genetic disposition. One can, at least theoritically, overcome socioeconomic disparity - that will never be the case with genetics. We'll have a further separation of classes, only with the genetic have-nots at the bottom of the cultural ladder.

These fears may seem outrageous and extreme but I don't believe they are. If you want to use genetics to ensure that your child does not now, nor ever will, have cystic fibrosis, that's one thing; if you want to mess with his genes in order to create a "most-favorable" child (such as say......ensuring that the child is MALE, a practice that I feel will become rampant once China gets the technology to do this), I think that's utterly morally and ethically repugnant. Medical science, I believe, is here to help aid in our natural evolution by ensuring the continuation of the species, not replacing our natural evolution.

In sum: no matter how good of an actor Jude Law is, I don't want to live in Gattaca.

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[TooCute]

sort of been discussed already:
http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=69&Topic=24971

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[HBox]

MOE- well the way i see it, if medical technology allows someone with such an unfortunate condition to have children, is it morally right for them to do so? you know? i mean if ur dieing wish is to have a child and u do, and u pass on even just the gene, its very selfish.


That was, personally, the most offensive thing I have ever heard in my life. You can figure out why.

Moe, you and your family are very lucky.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[Death Metal Moe]

I don't think Craig was talking about my family, I think he was talking about his original hypothetical story.

Just in case he WAS, my grandparents had 4 kids. The youngest, my aunt Ruthanne had cycstic Fibrosis. They had her LONG before things like sreening for diseases was common, or even done. I'm not sure of the history of such research.

Because of her suffering and short life, we all understood that when screening became available, we should do it. I loved my aunt, but she did suffer her whole short life. I'd like to keep that from happening to say, my future kids. So if I turn out to be a carrier, I would have the fetus of my child tested as early as is possible, and push to have it aborted if I knew it would live everyday sick and in pain.

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[HBox]

Well, speaking as somebody who has Cystic Fibrosis, I can safely say that even on my worst days I have never wished I wasn't born. And my younger sister, who has it worse than me and had a lung transplant at 14, feels the same way. Obviously we are lucky enough to have access to treatment.

I am just a little (a lot actually) pissed off that I would be "selfish" if I had kids. And that I am some kind of blight on humanity that needs to be phased out. If I was poor and knowingly had a sick kid I knew I couldn't provide treatment to, that's one thing. But saying that I shouldn't have kids? I don't want kids, but not for this reason.

I mean, if there was a cure, nobody would have to worry about aborting babies or anything. You could just cure the child, not abort him and everybody would be healthy, wealthy and wise. (Maybe not the last two)

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[Death Metal Moe]

Wow HBox. I wish you luck. I saw 1st hand how hard it can be. My aunt lived a long time for Cystic Fibrosis people. But long was 29 then. I hear treatment keeps getting better and better.

So from your point of view as someone who is carrier of a inherited gene, I see how you are Uber-Pissed at him.

But I have to ask you if you found out your child had it, would you want to pass it on? Knowing the pain. Knowing the expense?

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[phixion]

But I have to ask you if you found out your child had it, would you want to pass it on? Knowing the pain. Knowing the expense?


moe we agree adn we dotn need chronic.

if i found out my child had down syndrome, God forbid, i would abort it. i know that i couldnt handle it. i would sit there and cry constantly so i would rather live without pain, than subject myself to in voluntarily. someitmes u gotta think also would your child want to go through all the pain. i agree if your up to it and u think u can handle than by all means have the kid. but some of us know how much pain we can handle, some of us have already reached the limit, and a few have surpassed it.

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"smoking weed, smoking weed doing coke, drinking beers
drinking beers, beers, beersrolling fatties, smoking bluntswho smokes the blunts?we smoke the blunts." -Jay

[HBox]

But I have to ask you if you found out your child had it, would you want to pass it on? Knowing the pain. Knowing the expense?


I would rather live with CF than not live at all. And that is all I could base my decision on. If I got a girl pregnant, and I knew the kid would have CF, I would still want to have it, assuming I could afford it. But, I probably would not try to have kids in the first place. I just think aborting it would be worse than letting the kid live with CF.

I also think a fetus is a living thing, and I mostly oppose abortion. I don't think kids should be aborted just because parents don't want to have it or don't feel ready. I wish people would be more responsible, but I know that isn't going to happen.

To sum up, I wouldn't feel guilty having a kid with CF. I would feel more guilty to abort it for that reason. I'm probably not going to try to have kids in the first place. But, put in a position to have a kid with CF or abort, I would only abort if I couldn't afford to treat the kid.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[TheMojoPin]

I also think a fetus is a living thing, and I mostly oppose abortion. I don't think kids should be aborted just because parents don't want to have it or don't feel ready. I wish people would be more responsible, but I know that isn't going to happen.

This should be your secret weapon since you're "outed" as a "Lib" every other thread.

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2% << December boys got it BAD. >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Hawiian shirt craig]

Well, speaking as somebody who has Cystic Fibrosis, I can safely say that even
on my worst days I have never wished I wasn't born. And my younger sister, who has
it worse than me and had a lung transplant at 14, feels the same way. Obviously we
are lucky enough to have access to treatment.


well i'm glad you're doing well, and i too wish you luck. BUT in my original statement i
even said, i think EVERYONE should have acess to ANY technology. and i never said
you shouldn't be born

what i am getting at is not your right to exist, thats not even a question. and you're
not a blight on humanity. What i am trying to say is that anyone with genes that could
potentially hurt their liniage is being selfish, at least on some level, having kids. think
about it. if you were to have kids, and they are totally healthy (god willing)... they still
carry the gene for C.F... which could be mated with the right woman and generate a
baby with the same condition you have. or maybe your kids would have it. i just think
that its a consideration.

My overall idea is not in specific cases, my over all idea is one that you cannot argue
with. take a step back... I think we all agree someone born with, lets say, a hole in
their heart or some other unfortunate genetic birth abnormality, would not have made
it to having children int he 1800's. Open heart surgery and what not just wasn't
available. Today this child gets a transplant, or repair almost immediately. Which is
great, but the gene which cause the abnormality is still in them and is passed on to
continue its trip around the gene pool. This overrides natural selection, and THAT i'm
not comfortable with. I'm all for the repair, because the person in question should be
allowed to live, its their right. but i also think that person's right comes with the
responcibility to consider adoption or no children, because tehy know that they carry a
gene which could hurt people not ever e


-Hawiian Shirt Craig
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T
HAVE NICE THINGS!!

<img src=http://www.richstillwell.com/HSC.gif>

anal on the boss' couch since 1982....

[Hawiian shirt craig]

If I got a girl pregnant, and I knew the kid would have CF, I would still want to
have it, assuming I could afford it


i find this more offensive than anything i have ever seen... you would only not have a
kid if you couldn't afford it, rather than if you knew it would be liek;ly
to live a life filled with illness and physical pain? thats SELFISH like i said above
thats haveing a kid for your needs... not for anyother reason.


-Hawiian Shirt Craig
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T
HAVE NICE THINGS!!

<img src=http://www.richstillwell.com/HSC.gif>

anal on the boss' couch since 1982....

[HBox]

i find this more offensive than anything i have ever seen... you would only not have a
kid if you couldn't afford it, rather than if you knew it would be liek:ly
to live a life filled with illness and physical pain? thats SELFISH like i said above
thats haveing a kid for your needs... not for anyother reason.


I once asked my mother if she would have had me if she knew I had Cystic Fibrosis. She said yes.

I'm glad she was being "selfish."

P.S. Whether or not you meant it, there is the implication in your post that I am "piss" in the gene pool, and it pisses me off more and more the more I think about it.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

This message was edited by HBox on 6-6-03 @ 1:16 AM

[monsterone]

it's not uncommon for humans to overestimste their knowledge. but isn't the actual pursuit of knowledge? nasa does these stupid little projects for science sake, but most of you don't know that the intenet is controlled by nasa. the internet is government controlled bc it's govt created.

that's kinda off the topic but here's my point- if we extend beyond our capacity, won't it revert to natural evolution? we might downsize the human race , but eliminate the dead weight. that could mean me, you, etc.. but it is self-imposed disease. the underlying notion is the arrogence is the fact that we think we can destroy the world but are completely incapable of it. nature is always stronger than we are.

[Se7en]

Quote:
I also think a fetus is a living thing, and I mostly oppose abortion. I don't think kids should be aborted just because parents don't want to have it or don't feel ready. I wish people would be more responsible, but I know that isn't going to happen.



This should be your secret weapon since you're "outed" as a "Lib" every other thread.

*whisper* This is part of why I like Hbox more than Five.

But Hbox is a chick, right? RIGHT? I sure hope so. These strange feelings I have.....

<img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/captainamerica.jpg" width="300" height="100">

[Hawiian shirt craig]

I'm glad she was being "selfish."


you're being combative and reactive. What I'm getting at is your mother didn't KNOW she carried a C.F. gene. once you existed i dont dispute your right to live or her right to have you.

what i am saying is in YOUR case you might consider otehr options besides having your own children, b/c the genes you pass on could potentially kill a dozen of your great-great-grandchildren... or at least put then through a lot of pain. Its YOUR choice, not mine, not the governments. its just something to consider, so i will not be sucked into an arguement with you. this is the last argumentative post of yours i will respond to.

so dont act like i'm trying to tell you to jump off a bridge or that ur useless, b/c i'm not. If thats what you want to read, tuff shit.

-Hawiian Shirt Craig
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T
HAVE NICE THINGS!!

<img src=http://www.richstillwell.com/HSC.gif>

anal on the boss' couch since 1982....

[Bergalad]

But Hbox is a chick, right? RIGHT?

Wait, is this right?

[HBox]

But Hbox is a chick, right? RIGHT?

Wait, is this right?


?????????????????????????

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[HBox]

so dont act like i'm trying to tell you to jump off a bridge or that ur useless, b/c i'm not. If thats what you want to read, tuff shit.


I'm just trying to give you the point of view of all the people who you would deny the chance to live. Not deciding to have kids in the first place is one thing, but deciding to abort just because a child has a disease, I think, is cruel.

And, IMO, the abortion is a selfish decision. You can say you don't want the child to suffer all you want, but you are aborting the child because YOU don't want to deal with it, because I guarantee if that child was able to choose between life with a disease and death, they would choose life, in all but the most extreme (and I mean very extreme) cases. (I'm not speaking directly to you Craig, just in general)

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

This message was edited by HBox on 6-7-03 @ 5:39 PM

[Steels]

I find your thoughts stimulating Craig, you raise some excellent points.

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[TheMojoPin]

I find your thoughts stimulating Craig, you raise some excellent points.

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[BrianTheBailBondsman]

Damn Shirt You really did pay attention in School ! MOM AND DAD are glad to see they didnt waste tuition.

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[Death Metal Moe]

Jesus. Am I sorry I ever brought up Cyctic Fibrosis.

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[monsterone]

when did humanity become so arogant that we thought we might be capable of ending everything as we know it?

impossible. we might become a detriment to our own legacy, but how does that effect the rest of the universe?

and when have we ever backed off from conquering knowledge?

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[high fly]

I just want an affordable Pam Anderson clone to serve as a sex slave. Is that too much to ask?

" and they ask me why I drink"