A liberal who gets it.

[Bigden]

I am glad that there is one liberal member of the media who gets why we are in Iraq. It's not the WMD's only- its to march into the Middle East ready to Kill and die in order to protect our open society from terrorists. Sometimes I think we all should look back at some photos of that day- and stop the petty politics. I believe that the troops fighting know that they are not only there to find a few weapons, but to "Pop the bubble of terrorism" as Mr. Friedman so cleverly puts it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/04/opinion/04FRIE.html?n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20O p%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fColumnists

[Yerdaddy]

If Friedman's bubble theory that building a democracy in Iraq would be a deterrence to terrorism then I've got some questions:

Why did the administration decide to pare down the military's forces to 2 divisions, from the originally suggested 7, which was sufficient to win the military campaign but not to secure the country afterwards? The security vacuum set back the rebuilding process months, at least.

Why was there no apparent plans for an interim administration? General Jay Garner was pulled out and replaced with Paul Bremmer on the fly, when the reconstruction process was going nowhere.

Why is the pentagon propping up Ahmed Chalabi in the Hunting Club in Baghdad and is brokering US power through him in an attempt to bolster his political power in Iraq? The CIA and the State Department had dismissed Chalabi as a cheat and a liar 7 years ago. He has no political support within Iraq, and has no democratic credentials. He is simply a corrupt businessman with support from the few neoconservatives in the administration. Yet he is, and will be, the preeminent political figure in Iraq. Whether fact or opinion, this will be the feeling of both leaders and people of the Arab world if Chalabi continues to play this artificial role of leadership in Iraq.

There are many other, more specific, questions to be answered if this theory is to be taken seriously. But the bottom line is that democracy is not looking good in Iraq right now. The administration has done too many things wrong. A year from now the president may be able to convince an apathetic American public that democracy is taking shape in Iraq, but the world, and especially the Arab world which would be the required audience for this model to be valid, will be looking much more closely at Iraq than we will.

In fact, by failing to provide security in the interim period, which still has not been done, the administration has invited terrorism into Iraq, with 150,000 US troops as targets. And if this difficult task of restoring authority and order to Iraq, much less democracy, is not done right, then Iraq will fall the way of Afghanistan and become a failed state - exactly what the president in his National Security Strategy claims is the breeding ground for terrorism.

I'm not buying it.

And since when is Thomas Friedman a "liberal"?

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[Bigden]

But the bottom line is that democracy is not looking good in Iraq right now.


Right now.... Exactly you have answered your own question. Patience, it has not been long, and the country is the size of California with many different ethnicities to deal with. Did you expected a Democracy overnight? I certainly did not but some things have been accomplished:

1) Rolling through a hostile arab nation with a large army in six weeks- let me know when you find a military victory in history at less cost of life, and in the same timeframe- you won't

2) Israel is safe- not one causualty- considering the amount of Scuds that could have been launched- a very major accomplishment.

3) The oil wells and the future of the Iraqi economy is saved. Only a few minor well fires occurred. Another victory.

The 2 divisions are more than enough when one of them is the most advanced and well-equpped division in history of the world- the fourth ID.

I agree that times are hard, and will continue to be that way in the near future. I don't know when Iraq will be completely under control, but I thank God that our troops have more foresight and belief in their mission than you do.
It is so easy to pick on a situation like you do in your post. I think alot of you can't stand that we won. Friedman is right on the mark, we had to strike Iraq.

[Bigden]

apathetic American public


Speak for yourself- I have a little more faith in this country than you do. Boy.. liberals at it again-Thinking that only their opinion matters. It just kills you guys that we set out to do something which you opposed, and we did it-get used to it. Sorry, someone has to look out for the safety of our country and its citizens. It is easy to criticize try to offer some solutions- that would be nifty.

[silera]

Sorry, someone has to look out for the safety of our country and its citizens. It is easy to criticize try to offer some solutions- that would be nifty.

We don't live in Iraq.

We spent 80 billion there and it's a mess.

You want a solution:

a) Revamp customs so that there are enough employees and systems in place to ensure that 100% of all shipments into the United States get searched prior to entry. Not only do you cut off supply lines for materials used in building terrorist weapons, you reduce illegal immigration, drug trafficking (and in effect terrorisn's source of funding), as well as create jobs and boost the economy.

b) Arm each and every American plane with a missile defense system. Again, the money stays here with us where it belongs.

c) Develop and implement an across the board training program for all law enforcement and emergency response persons that assist in preventing future attacks as well as responding to emergency situations.

d) Figure out a way for all the various hands of our humongous conglomerate government work together so that persons involved in terror do not simply slip through the cracks.

There are many more.

I'm just tired of rehashing the fact that this war is retarded.


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[DarkHippie]

You didn't answer Yerdaddy's question, Bigden.

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[Yerdaddy]

1) Rolling through a hostile arab nation with a large army in six weeks- let me know when you find a military victory in history at less cost of life, and in the same timeframe- you won't
Nobody's arguing that the forces used weren't sufficient to win the military campaign. But many important people, including Generasl Van Riper, <a href="" target="_blank">White and Shinseki</a> are making the point that it was insufficient to secure the peace. That was the point of the original larger force plans.
2) Israel is safe- not one causualty- considering the amount of Scuds that could have been launched- a very major accomplishment.
If there aren't any scuds capable of reaching Israel then where's the accomplishment?
3) The oil wells and the future of the Iraqi economy is saved. Only a few minor well fires occurred. Another victory.
Oil fields, and refineries were allowed to be looted by the lack of sufficient forces, causing a significant setback for restoring oil production. A victory lost by the war planners.

I'm not criticizing the military, they performed superbly. But now, they are being given the burden of securing a country with insuficient forces. That puts them at risk, and makes harder for them to assist in the nation-building process that they are now tasked with. The problem is not that the military is failing to create democracy, but that the administration has failed to prepare for the post-war period. They did not take the steps that they were told, by the military among others, would be necessary to secure and rebuild the country.

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[Yerdaddy]

I suggest you dont try to make this a left/right feud because if Iraq does turn into a failed state then the liberals, or at least the opponents of the war, would then become the hawks who tried to prevent an action that makes us less safe than before.

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[HBox]

I'm so sick of this. Just because you oppose this war doesn't make you a fucking liberal. It just means you don't agree with why we waged this war.

The biggest reason we waged this war is because of WMDs. We have found none. All this liberation stuff was supposed to be an extra consequence of the war. If we wanted to just liberate the oppresed Iraqi people, we could have done it a LONG LONG time ago, before even the first Gulf war.

Sure, we did a good thing in liberating the Iraqi people. But that is not out job, not worth American lives. And why don't we move on to Africa? We'd have to liberate half the continent, where mass graves litter the land.

Bush tried to convince the American public and the world that Iraq was a threat with WMDs and that ne needed to be removed for our own safety. The American public mostly believed him, and now not only have we not found WMDs, it seems that the administration may have purposely misled the public.

So, the current problem is not what Bush did, but that he may have lied to the American public. (Hmm, where did that happen before?!) If there were other reason he waged this war, he should have presented them to the public, and if they agreed, then we have no problem.

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[TheMojoPin]

Sometimes I think we all should look back at some photos of that day- AND STOP THE PETTY POLITICS.

Hmmmmm...

A liberal who gets it.

I am glad that there is one liberal member of the media who gets why we are in Iraq.

Boy.. liberals at it again-Thinking that only their opinion matters.

Right. Way to go. That's SO not petty.

As soon as you realize that it's not just "liberals" who opposed this war, and that opposing it does not automatically make you a "liberal", it might not seem so frustrating.

By the way...which day is "that day?" Don't tell me that almost unspoken but clearly implied "nudge-nudge, wink-wink, 9/11" reasoning for invading is coming back already...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 6-5-03 @ 11:45 PM

[Bigden]

I thought Friedman is considered a Liberal, but I could be mistaken. Whatever he is, he knows the Middle East and its politics better than any journalist I have read.

They did not take the steps that they were told, by the military among others, would be necessary to secure and rebuild the country.

Yerdaddy Please explain. I am interested in what information you have that the military has a plan that was ignored by the administration? I thought their plans involved defeating the Iraqi army?
The situation is very difficult with all the stupid Ak-47's that are around. I think we are doing as best as we can. Only a fool would put any blame at such an early stage of a nation building effort. It takes time- see post-war Europe under the Marshall plan, and that worked out pretty well. Though those Snakes in France and Germany have forgotten already.



This message was edited by Bigden on 6-6-03 @ 10:33 AM

[Bigden]

Don't tell me that almost unspoken but clearly implied "nudge-nudge, wink-wink, 9/11" reasoning for invading is coming back already...


I truly believe there is a connection. Read the Friedman article I linked and see if it makes sense to you, it does to me. These people are not like Americans they are told at the Mosque to hate us, told in the paper to hate us. It must stop or our children will never be safe. I think by striking at the heart of the Arab world, as they did to us, and taking down a ruthless dictator we have gotten their attention. I agree that this is a CRUCIAL time for us not to drop the ball, and rebuild Iraq correctly. Doesn't anyone think that the repressive regimes such as Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran realize that GW means business? The fight against terrorism is perhaps the toughest war the world has ever seen, it requires strength, and we are showing it. I think it would be foolish, even if you disagree politically with the administration, to throw in the towel so early in the process.

[alexc]

Thomas Friedman is a liberal. he isn't a socialist like some people.

[Butters]

if you add two more socks to the farm it'll be to big for the mini monkey whalers to hunt sea otters in the bath tub under the blimb

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[TheMojoPin]

Doesn't anyone think that the repressive regimes such as Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran realize that GW means business?

No.

Unless we stop suckling at Saudi Arabia's teet, they won't give a good goddamn.

And I read the article. I still don't see the connection, especially since we just conquered a SECULAR country, and the ideology you're talking about is fueled mostly by religion.

Oddly enough, Muslims aren't required to go to mosques. They're fully optional. They were created only to make all worshippers of equal footing in a single place...once you come in the door, there is no rich or poor, just fellow worshippers. But Muslims can do their praying anywhere, just so long as they face Mecca. One thing we should force Saudi Arabia to do if we grew some nads with them is have them simply shut down certain mosques that are known as extremist hotbeds.

And I think we COULD "lean" on Saudi Arabia with GW...but we haven't yet. I'll give him tons of credit for the attempts made so far between Israel and Palestine...a lot of that he's brought together basically just by sheer force of will, and it's impressive. But I don't think the invasion of Iraq sent much of a message. They were a broken country already. Sure, Syria might be shaking in their boots, but I highly doubt that Iran, Saudi Arabaia or Egypt would just roll over simply because of what we did in Iraq.

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[TheMojoPin]

It takes time- see post-war Europe under the Marshall plan, and that worked out pretty well.

I mentioned this already. I'd feel better if we had something even close to the Marshall Plan planned or in place, but nothing indicates that. The Marshall Plan had supply planes landing every few MINUTES for a good year. And that was almost 60 years ago.

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[Yerdaddy]

I am interested in what information you have that the military has a plan that was ignored by the administration? I thought their plans involved defeating the Iraqi army?
I posted links here: <a href="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=87&Topic=27500&RequestTimeout=50" target="_blank">Post-War Iraq</a>. See "Play to Win", a joint project of the Army, 7 members of Congress, and other government and non-government agencies. I talk in there somewhere about General Paul Van Riper's statements, and the article I posted above is of two generals who called the plans insufficient to secure the peace.

You seem to be stuck on the military campaign as proof of the correctness of the planning. I stated before that winning the military campaign is only the first step in this. The military is being expected to secure the peace and they have lost 40 people in the process so far. If you took every cop of of American streets what would happen? Looting, killings, and widespread destruction. Read the reports that I posted in the other thread and you will find reccommendations to plan for those problems, based on experience in other conflicts in the last 10 years. The warnings essentially served as a prediction for what took place in Iraq after the regime fell.

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[Bob Impact]

We can install all the democracy we want but the children who are growing up in rubble will learn to hate us just as their parents did. Children who are starving will not pin it on the government who can't feed them, but on the US war machine that destroyed their country. Parents will relay the stories of lost or dead family members to their kids.

Yes, atrocities happened in Saddam's Iraq, and they were horrible, but now that our hands are deeper in the country we will begin to take more of the blame. People have short memories and the children of Iraq will not remember the Saddam regime, only the problems that came when it was removed.

Will these children say "The US is really serious about stopping terrorism," "Look at how much good democracy has done for us." or will they say "The US has forced it's will upon us and has destroyed our country and killed our people."

As time goes on it will become less and less about what we've done well and more and more about the death caused by it. We could kill every terrorist on the face of the earth and it will not stop, there's always a new generation ready to step into their place, and waging wars on smaller countries is doing nothing to stop that, instead it perpetuates hate.

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[high fly]

Somehow, even with the fall of Saddam, I don't feel any safer.
After all, tons of nuke material went unguarded by us for 2 weeks, even after reports of it being looted.
Talk about a terrorist's dream scenario....

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Bigden]

We could kill every terrorist on the face of the earth and it will not stop, there's always a new generation ready to step into their place, and waging wars on smaller countries is doing nothing to stop that, instead it perpetuates hate.


That is possible, but with education we must somehow get the rest of the Middle East to realize that we are not bad people. The young minds must be fed real information- I.E. that we are the largest contributor to the U.N. we feed the world and equip poor nations with medicine, irrigation systems, and valuable knowledge about how to live better. I am a little sick of some foreign nations (France with 20% unemployment trying to keep their contrymen from looking in at a terribly run country) focusing eclusively on the mistakes we make. Yeah we make mistakes, but if we isolated ourselves from the world- no foreign aid, no UN contributions, No Nato peacekeeping The world would quickly fall into Chaos. Millions would starve, Disease would spread. Its tough being number one- especially when even some Americans don't look at all the good the U.S. does in the world.

[TheMojoPin]

That is possible, but with education we must somehow get the rest of the Middle East to realize that we are not bad people. The young minds must be fed real information- I.E. that we are the largest contributor to the U.N. we feed the world and equip poor nations with medicine, irrigation systems, and valuable knowledge about how to live better.


The younger generation in Iran seems to have come to at leat a somewhat similar conclusion...but how? It just sorta happened...what happened THERE that's not happening elsewhere?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 6-17-03 @ 11:18 AM

[FiveB247]

That is possible, but with education we must somehow get the rest of the Middle East to realize that we are not bad people. The young minds must be fed real information- I.E. that we are the largest contributor to the U.N. we feed the world and equip poor nations with medicine, irrigation systems, and valuable knowledge about how to live better. I am a little sick of some foreign nations (France with 20% unemployment trying to keep their contrymen from looking in at a terribly run country) focusing eclusively on the mistakes we make. Yeah we make mistakes, but if we isolated ourselves from the world- no foreign aid, no UN contributions, No Nato peacekeeping The world would quickly fall into Chaos. Millions would starve, Disease would spread. Its tough being number one- especially when even some Americans don't look at all the good the U.S. does in the world.

Your statement is only partially true. Yes we do many good things, but we always trade off democracy, freedoms, etc in order to help maintain stability. We also don't seem to mind profiting off and participating in the poor working conditions in which we regularly trade with, buy and consume as well as bring to other nations. Organizations like the WTO, IMF, World Bank and free trade agreements all which have major US influence and power, keep the poor nations in line for our gain and maintain control in world order. But let's just pat ourselves on the back for a few good deeds and ignore the rest...right? The US acts and carries out items in its own interest (always) and attempts to rattle off alternative reasons like human rights, humanitarian interventions, security, development, spreading of democratic or free market values amongst others...it's a load of bs, a guise and disgusting.

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

Why practice democratic values when you can pract

[high fly]

That "Marshall Plan For Afghanistan" doesn't seem to be working out as promised.
Terrorists there roam at will, the warlords still have their power, much food and other humanitarian isn't getting to the needy, democracy is still no more than a dream, and Iranian influence is expanding.
By failing to follow through, the Bush administration appears to be snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[alexc]

the reason why afghanistan is a mess because this stupid adminstration hasn't figured out a plan to help afghanistan. idiots in the administration were too focused on iraq. not that i was against the war in iraq. this adminstration f'n figure out a plan to win the god damn peace in ANY conflict.

[A.J.]

The younger generation in Iran seems to have come to at leat a somewhat similar conclusion...but how? It just sorta happened...what happened THERE that's not happening elsewhere?

Mojo raises a good point here.

Having talked with Iranian exiles, they pointed out that pre-1979 was fairly "Western" for the region. The influence there may be supressed but it has not been forgotten.

Also, at my old job I worked on a study that included an overview of Iran. This study was done back in 1997 but the fact is still relevant:

...of its 66 million people, about half are under 18 years old. As this population moves toward adulthood, Iran is beginning to experience a lot of domestic pressure as these young adults seek higher education and economic opportunity.


And the population there is still booming.

Additionally, the populous is unhappy with the devotion to expanding the military and related-programs at the expense of other programs.

Here are some links and stories relevant to the reform movement in Iran:

iranvajahan.net (http://iranvajahan.net/english/)

Iranian blogs (http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,58976,00.html)

Student protestors (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2996604.stm)

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[TheMojoPin]

Mojo raises a good point here.


Thanks, AJ.

There's a new book out called "Persepolis" where a woman talks about growing up in Iran in the last 20+ years, and the picture she paints is of a VERY "westernized" country that existed very seperately and differently from much of the Middle Eastern countries until this fierce, religious minority took over and dominated the populace with their doctrines and practices.

But at the same time, something tells me that they would NOT be happy to see the US rolling in to "liberate" them, and it would probably just seem like one oppressive regime taking over from the previous one. I think the smartest thing we could do here is just "push" for some kind of internal change or revolution and support that movement while being as hands-off as possible.

We really missed the boat by not fully supporting the Iraqi people in an overthrow of Saddam in '91 (BY the Iraqi people, NOT us), and now it might be biting us in the ass. We shouldn't make the same mistakes with Iran.

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[A.J.]

I tend to think a "Velvet Revolution" is needed for Iran.

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[alexc]

Iran is a country where vast majority of the population is under the age of 25. This means that a lot of the people did not see the horrible reign of the Shah and the revolution afterwards. It was reported that in Iran there was spontaneous demonstrations of support of the US after 9/11. I think the young people there want to be integrated with the rest of the world. they are not rebelling against islam. they are rebelling against oppressive government.

[TheMojoPin]

"This just in...Iran draped in 'Velvet Fog'...more to come!"

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[FiveB247]

Iran has not forgotten the US backing of Saddam and Iraq...it'd be silly to think they are begining to lean towards our ways. In many ways, they have stayed out of the global economy, trade and economic forums the US and other Western nations would gladly welcome them into.

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Why practice democratic values when you can pract

[A.J.]

"This just in...Iran draped in 'Velvet Fog'...more to come!"

Iran is feeling the "shock and awe"...of MEL TORME!

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[TheMojoPin]

"Religious clerics react with a knee-capper of a counter offensive!"

http://www.salem.edu/archives/forever40s/images/youngfrank1.jpg

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 6-19-03 @ 11:23 AM

[A.J.]

But nobody expected the asymmetric attack from student protestors:

http://www.capitolint.com/tony%20bennett.jpg

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This message was edited by AJinDC on 6-19-03 @ 11:30 AM

[Teenweek]

http://www.sfn2.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=223412

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[TheMojoPin]

"HEY!!! Don't you MAKE me bat these babies!"

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[high fly]

Coulda worked in Iraq

" and they ask me why I drink"