Best President Ever

[HBox]

OK, I'm blatantly ripping of Furie, but after seeing how our Presidents the last 50 years haven't been stellar, I figured we would have the ultimate showdown here.

This message was edited by HBox on 6-23-03 @ 10:12 PM

[canofsoup15]

Damnit my comp glitched out and all i saw was jefferson and washington, but id probably go with lincoln or FDR.

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[HBox]

I picked FDR. He saw this country through the most devastating economic crisis and the biggest, bloodiest war the world has ever seen, and he did it while infected with Polio.

If you saw only Jefferson and Washington, that was my fault. I accidentally posted without all of the choices in the poll. Sorry Canofsoup.

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This message was edited by HBox on 6-23-03 @ 10:18 PM

[mdr55]

Where's Ben Franklin? I know when I have a bunch of these, I'm happy. It beats out having a Washington and a Lincoln in my book. What? He wasn't president? Then why is he on money?

[canofsoup15]

Ben franklin was never the president of the united states of america, he was of continental congress, and yes, i thought he was president once too.

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This message was edited by canofsoup15 on 6-23-03 @ 10:37 PM

[FUNKMAN]

I picked FDR. He saw this country through the most devastating economic crisis and the biggest, bloodiest war the world has ever seen, and he did it while infected with Polio


and all the Big Bank owners said "you can't shut the banks", and he said "Oh Yeah, Watch Me"

kind of like when MacArthur went against Truman's order, Truman said "Oh Yeah, You're Fired"

he was responsible for creating the FDIC, to federally insure people's money, Unemployment Pay,(Republicans were hell bent against it and said that "nobody would want to work anymore") Social Security and other social programs...

mind you, i'm going on my Grandfather's recollections...

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[canofsoup15]

He also had the balls to nuke japan and take on one of the greatest superpowers the world has/had ever seen at that time.

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[Yerdaddy]

Where the fuck is Chester A. Arthur?! This shit is rigged! I'm starting my own poll!

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[phixion]

id just like to vent on lincoln for a minute. his civil rights work was great, but he was bad president. during the civil war he basically threw out the consititution. he imprisoned ppl without charge nor conviction.there are other examples but i cant remember them. thats my only major gripe with him.

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[FiveB247]

Civil rights for Lincoln? Do you not remember when he suspended Habias Corpus?

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[TheMojoPin]

He also had the balls to nuke japan and take on one of the greatest superpowers the world has/had ever seen at that time.

Roosevelt died before that. Truman ordered the bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Man, now I'm torn. See, with great men like Jefferson and Washington, I think they achieved their greatest accomplishments OUTSIDE of the office of the president. Think about it...are you voting for what they actually did IN office if you vote for them? Washington's two terms are usually glossed over in a paragraph or two in most US history textbooks (Not that that's GOOD)...sure, he obviously had to deal with a lot being the first and all, but when you think of everything he did, it's all events and actions BEFORE he was president.

Which leaves me between Lincoln and FDR. I don't see how you can knock Lincoln...you think 9/11 is trying on our country. That ain't SHIT compared to what he had to deal with. And you can argue the reasons as to why he freed the slaves...he did it. Period. And FDR pulled us through both the Great Depression AND most of WW2. Diz-AMN.

Wilson should be knocked the hell off, basically because he's about the most racist and sexist president we've ever had. And I'm not talking, "oh, that was just the talk of the day!" kinda shit...the REAL ugly, hateful stuff.

TR, again, like the first two, I respect and admire him more for what he did OUTSIDE of the office.

And I really, REALLY admire Truman...for what he came from, his steps towards civil rights...

This IS tough.

Hmmmm.

Alright. I'm going with FDR.

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[TheMojoPin]

No William Henry Harrison?!?!

DENIED.

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[HBox]

No William Henry Harrison?!?!


Only 30 days, but WHAT A 30 DAYS IT WAS!

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[El Mudo]

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This message was edited by El Mudo on 6-24-03 @ 12:43 AM

[Yerdaddy]

during the civil war he basically threw out the consititution. he imprisoned ppl without charge nor conviction.there are other examples but i cant remember them.
Well, let's not assume that Lincoln suspended habeas corpus just for shits and giggles. The state of Maryland was tottering between secession and remaining in the US in 1861, and Lincoln essentially made their decision for them - that they were staying in the union. Had Lincoln allowed Maryland to seceed, Washington DC would have been completely surrounded by confederate states and the US would have had to move it's capital city. While that doesn't sound like too big a deal, it would have meant a great political and psychological blow to the unionists and given more weight to the "Peace Democrats" who supported allowing the south to seceed. So, let's understand that Lincoln was faced with the decision of suspending some constitutional liberties, (not the constitution as a whole), and preserving the union. Habeas corpus was restored after the war in 1866.

<a href="http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/msa/stagser/s1259/121/7590/html/0000.html" target="_blank">the state of Maryland's current view on the issue</a>

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[HBox]

One thing we should all consider: When a President is so popular that the government has to change the laws of the country to stop the people from repeatedly voting him back into office, that is something.

I considered Lincoln. He may have really stretched the Constitution, but he did it to keep this country together, not to mention to end slavery. And all of those rights he suspended came back again.

Wilson got us through WW1, which was at that point the biggest war the world had ever seen. Also, he's from New Jersey and a building at my college was named after him, so I guess I'm biased. I never heard about the sexist and racist stuff, I guess I better read up on it. The history of this country can send you from proud as hell to ashamed as hell in an instant.

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[El Mudo]

My beef with the whole Maryland thing is Lincoln never allowed them to make a choice. Maybe they would have stayed in the Union. Heck, Gen. Lee didn't really get much support here when he invaded in 62, but then again he was in the northern part of the state, almost at the PA line.

But i guess you're right...he couldn't risk letting them secede even if they might have decided to stay. Doesn't mean i still have to like it. And the people they arrested stayed up in Fort Warren for about 3 or 4 years as i recall...

My ancestor(C Company 33d Virginia) was taken prisoner and kept here in MD..at Point Lookout...

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[El Mudo]

Wilson got us through WW1, which was at that point the biggest war the world had ever seen. Also, he's from New Jersey and a building at my college was named after him, so I guess I'm biased. I never heard about the sexist and racist stuff, I guess I better read up on it. The history of this country can send you from proud as hell to ashamed as hell in an instant.


I know there were some pissed off WW1 vets who just got off the front lines and thought they were gonna see Elsie Janis, but instead they got Woodrow Wilson's daughter who had a dress down to her ankles and sang a song about trees...

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[NewYorkDragons80]

Civil rights for Lincoln? Do you not remember when he suspended Habias Corpus?
If anyone was wondering what a liberal looks like, here it is folks.

I voted for TR. Mojo, check my list of TR's presidential achievements while he was in office in the thread about presidents in the last 50 years. I still think Theodore Roosevelt is the best president of the 20th century.

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[HBox]

I know there were some pissed off WW1 vets who just got off the front lines and thought they were gonna see Elsie Janis, but instead they got Woodrow Wilson's daughter who had a dress down to her ankles and sang a song about trees...

Did she sing this?


The Trees


There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.


The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.


There is trouble in the forest,
And the creatures all have fled,
As the maples scream "Oppression!"
And the oaks just shake their heads


So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
"The oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.

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[TheMojoPin]

Mojo, check my list of TR's presidential achievements while he was in office in the thread about presidents in the last 50 years.


Hey, don't get me wrong, I think TR is one of the greatest Americans ever, PERIOD. I'm just far more impressed with what he did when he wasn't in office. That's why I gotta go with FDR.

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[Yerdaddy]

My ancestor(C Company 33d Virginia) was taken prisoner and kept here in MD..at Point Lookout...
Sucked to be him. But it could have been worse - he could have been anywhere else:
The following year, after the Battle of Gettysburg, Union authorities started sending Confederate prisoners to Point Lookout for incarceration. As the prisoner population swelled to 20,000 and more, a wooden walled prisoner pen was constructed on the bay shore. The rebel captives were held inside and were given only tents for shelter. Exposure, disease, and starvation took their toll. Of the 50,000 men held at the Point between 1863 and 1865, nearly 4,000 died. Ironically, however, this death rate of 8 percent was less than half the death rate among soldiers who were in the field with their own armies.

Irony:
"The bottom rail's on top now!" Among the Federal Army units to rotate from the front to serve as guards at Point Lookout were African-American soldiers of the U.S.C.T. Regiments (United States Colored Troops). Ironically, in some cases, these soldiers had occasion to guard their former masters, which led to instances of brutality, or of kindness, depending on the nature of their relationship previous to the war.

<a href="http://www.dnr.state.md.us/publiclands/ptlookouthistory.html" target="_blank">Point Lookout State Park History</a>

Stories about the conditions at <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/elmiraprison/" target="_blank">Elmira</a> in New York, and confederate prisons in <a href="http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/11andersonville/11andersonville.htm" target="_blank">Andersonville</a> and <a href="http://www.salisburyprison.org/" target="_blank">Salsbury</a> are much worse that I've seen from Point Lookout, so there's a good chance that if he had'nt been at Point Lookout, you may not exist today.

There's another site on Point Lookout POWs, run by a modern day "Johnny Reb". It's got some interesting stuff if you define the Civil War as the "War of Northern Aggression" or even if you wonder just how much resentment there still is over the Civil War: <a href="http://members.tripod.com/~PLPOW/plpow.htm" target="_blank">Point Lookout POW Descendants Organization</a>

Look up individual soldiers: <a href="http://www.itd.nps.gov/cwss/" target="_blank">NPS Civil War Soldiers and Sailors System</a>

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[A.J.]

Grover Cleveland.

He has the best damn rest area on the Jersey Turnpike!

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[McNabbShouldDie]

FDR Rules this school!

I mean, he was president for like 12 years, hes gotta be good.

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[furie]

McKinley? there were better men than him certainly.

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[furie]

Where's Ben Franklin? I know when I have a bunch of these, I'm happy. It beats out having a Washington and a Lincoln in my book. What? He wasn't president? Then why is he on money?

please tell me this is a joke.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

Grover Cleveland.

He has the best damn rest area on the Jersey Turnpike!
Apparently my ignorant friend has not heard of Vince Lombardi.

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[A.J.]

Apparently my ignorant friend has not heard of Vince Lombardi.

Too crowded.

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[FiveB247]

If anyone was wondering what a liberal looks like, here it is folks.

Lincoln ended slavery...yes. Were his intentions just of that?...Of course not. He was trying to hold the union together! And if you don't think suspension of Habias Corpus goes againt being a leader of civil rights...you're crazy. That'd be as logical as calling Fidel Castro a humanitarian cause he sends doctors all over the world to help less fortunate people in other nations.

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[El Mudo]

Stories about the conditions at Elmira in New York, and confederate prisons in Andersonville and Salsbury are much worse that I've seen from Point Lookout, so there's a good chance that if he had'nt been at Point Lookout, you may not exist today.


Thanks for the Info Yerdaddy.

He was also at Elmira (and survived that too), and didn't get out till around July of 65 i believe because he wouldnt take the oath. I've got his service records from the National Archives and found out all sorts of things about him. Like he was a poor illiterate millworker(with about 7 children) who didn't own slaves, volunteered for C Company at 38 or 39 in 1861(which makes his POW survival even more amazing) and was wounded twice, both times at Manassass, the second wounding which put him out almost a year, so he missed Sharpsburg where he probably wouldve gotten killed. Came back in time for Gettysburg, and was captured at Spotsylvania.

I'm very proud of my ancestor and all the sacrifices he made for what he believed was right, and I'm also glad to say as a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, I hope I can continue to see his memory is honored.

Oh yeah and one more thing. The conditions at Federal POW camps were made that way on purpose by order of the General in charge of prisons(Hartman i believe) because of the outcry in the Northern press about the "coddling" of Southern prisons. At least at Andersonville and Libby and Salisbury they didn't really have a choice about conditions, but at Fort Delaware and Lookout and Elmira and Johnson's Island they did.

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This message was edited by El Mudo on 6-24-03 @ 11:28 PM

[El Mudo]

The Federal Government also will not allow any Confederate Flag to be flown at Pt. Lookout any more, something they just imposed recently....

Also did you know there are Confederate dead and a Confederate monument at Arlington Cemetery? The tour will not take you by there and no ranger will mention it even exists...

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[TheMojoPin]

The tour will not take you by there and no ranger will mention it even exists...


So? It's a huge cemetary. The tour skips a LOT. It only goes to the "major" sites. I've seen the Confederate memorial. It's nothing special. Unless there's a directive specifically stating to NOT mention it, what's the problem?

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[Yerdaddy]

Arlington National Cemetary was originally the The Custis-Lee Mansion, which was Robert E. Lee's house until 1861, when Virginia seceded. Lee went to Richmond when he couldn't get enough Confederate troops to Arlington in time to secure it like he wanted. His wife stayed in the house for a few months after the Union army started using the house as a local headquarters. General Montgomery Meigs, who was the Union Army's quartermaster general, and who grew increasingly hostile towards the Confederacy brought 26 Union soldiers from the morgue and burried them on the grounds of the place as an insult to Lee and to make sure he wouldn't return after the war. Later he brought, I think, 1,800 soldiers killed at Bull Run to the grounds and burried them there, founding the National Cemetary.

If I remember correctly the mansion is on one of the long stops on the tour, but I don't know if they mentioned it. I probably wasn't listening.

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[TheMojoPin]

If I remember correctly the mansion is on one of the long stops on the tour, but I don't know if they mentioned it. I probably wasn't listening.


Outside of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and Kennedy's flame, it's the biggest highlight. The story you just related is the crux of the tour stop...what else would they talk about?

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[El Mudo]

General Montgomery Meigs, who was the Union Army's quartermaster general, and who grew increasingly hostile towards the Confederacy brought 26 Union soldiers from the morgue and burried them on the grounds of the place as an insult to Lee and to make sure he wouldn't return after the war


It wasn't to insult Lee, Meigs buried soldiers there to get revenge on Lee. His son John Meigs was killed in 1864 by Mosby's men in a battle, and Meigs blamed Lee. Because the cemeteries were getting too full around DC, he began to bury troops at Arlington, so Lee couldn't live there any more. He buried his son in Mrs. Lee's rose garden...

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[high fly]

Yeah, like Chester A. Arthur.

" and they ask me why I drink"