Tax the rich!

[FiveB247]

Have a look. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=68&ncid=68&e=2&u=/nyt/20030626/ts_nyt/veryrichestsshareofincomegrewevenbiggerdatashow)


The rate actually paid by the top 400 in 2000 was about the same as that paid by a single person making $123,000 or a married couple with two children earning $226,000, according to Citizens for Tax Justice, a labor-backed group whose calculations are respected by a broad spectrum of tax experts.

So much for the notion of the rich paying "their fair share"...no more no less...right?

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Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 6-26-03 @ 4:13 PM

[Aggie]

Sounds like a job FOR:

http://www.geocities.com/puckrobin/rh/disneyrh1.jpg



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New Jersey Devils ~ 2003 Stanley Cup Champions

[HBox]

http://www.geocities.com/puckrobin/rh/kevincost.jpg

Oh great. Look who showed up. Now look what you've done.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[furie]

the problem is the tax brackets. the government considers someone thaT MAKEs $150k to be rich, and lumps them in with millionares. they need to restructure the brackets.

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<marquee>Don't make me Ang Lee. You wouldn't like me when I'm Ang Lee.</marquee>

[HBox]

What we really need to do is stop focusing on income taxes and look at payroll taxes. People stop paying FICA taxes after they have earned over $98,000. Why, I ask? How about we just strip the limit altogether and lower the FICA tax rate. That way we can lower taxes for most Americans AND also increase government income. Sounds fair to me.

Bush seems so concerned with the "double taxation" of dividends which only affect a few but unconcerned with every working person getting taxed twice, once on payroll taxes and once on income taxes.

There is no coincedence why Bush is concentrating on income taxes. Income taxes hurt the rich. Payroll taxes give them a huge break.

That was my serious post of the day.

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[El Mudo]

Tax the rich!


http://www.ancientspirit.de/covers7/fozzy1.jpg

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States Rights are dying

[FiveB247]

It's a questionable arguement how much each bracket should be paying. But it is only fair that everyone pay their fair share on their incomes. This is just one study showing how the rich make and carry out policy and agenda on their own behalf.

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[fluffernutter]

http://www.ancientspirit.de/covers7/fozzy1.jpg

Maybe I am totally missing it here but the song I think you were referencing was Eat The Rich and that was off of:

http://www.sonicdeath.co.uk/antileech.asp?id=341

If I am wrong may I be taxed like a piece of rich filth. Fuck the Rich!

Come to think of it:

http://www.antville.org/img/infam/lemmy.jpg

Now back to the intelligent conversation.

Proceed.

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[TheMojoPin]

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"And unlike some OTHER threads...THIS thread speaks with an English accent..."

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[FUNKMAN]

this is exactly what I spoke about in the other tax thread we had when the new plan went into affect...

people complain "don't take it from the rich, it's not fair, people will not want to become millionaires"

i'll state it again, if they took half of Bill Gates assets and he has to live on "ONLY" 30 billion, then FUCK e'm

if Lebron James only got a 45million dollar ad contract with Nike instead of 90, then TOO fucking bad... put the other 45 into the Community, the schools, and the infrastructure...

and don't let me get into the CEO salaries, they don't own the fucking company, their an employee like everyone else...

the guy at the bottom is getting fucked 6 ways from Sunday, and most of them are busting their asses for shitty pay and shitty benefits...
what kind of interest are they earning at the bank, what interest rates are they paying on their credit cards and loans, they get penalized on checking accounts and mortgages, their insurance costs are higher, and they pay more for auto repairs cause they can't afford a new car every 2 or 3 years...

and if you say that their is opportunity for everyone, then i believe you are mistaken... people are getting left out in the street and in the cold because of the greed of others....

PEACE
:)

<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/ontime100.jpg">

[mdr55]

I agree with "not taxing the rich their fair share" economics-If we do that (taxing the rich) the economy will worsen and there will be less jobs. Remember by giving tax incentives to the rich, it will allow them to hire more people and spend money on the economy which as a result will re-energize and stimulate the economy.
How come is no one is talking about taking away all that "FREE Government MONEY" that some people get for not doing JACK? Geez, some of them live better than I do. Anyone else notice this?

[El Mudo]

Maybe I am totally missing it here but the song I think you were referencing was Eat The Rich and that was off of:


Yeah i know it was "Eat the rich" but "tax the rich" reminded me of "eat the rich". i couldn't find a pic of that first fozzy album that wasn't gigantic

http://users.pandora.be/dave.depickere/Images/29th.gif
States Rights are dying

[Bergalad]

i'll state it again, if they took half of Bill Gates assets and he has to live on "ONLY" 30 billion, then FUCK e'm
On behalf of Mr. Gates, let me reply by saying fuck you right back. How about you live on half your salary? Why is it his responsibility to subsidize your lazy ass? Because he is smart and motivated and rose up out of the lower middle class? It's not his fault that you don't feel you get paid enough. It's not his fault poor people exist in the world. Why are you making this his problem? You are pretty fucking free with other people's money, aren't you?! If you're not willing to give up half of your own money, then you should probably not be telling someone else they have to give up theirs.

[FUNKMAN]

On behalf of Mr. Gates, let me reply by saying fuck you right back. How about you live on half your salary? Why is it his responsibility to subsidize your lazy ass? Because he is smart and motivated and rose up out of the lower middle class? It's not his fault that you don't feel you get paid enough. It's not his fault poor people exist in the world. Why are you making this his problem? You are pretty fucking free with other people's money, aren't you?! If you're not willing to give up half of your own money, then you should probably not be telling someone else they have to give up theirs.


Good Comeback!!!!

Just want to say that I am not a "lazy ass", I've been working for approx 25 years now.




<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/ontime100.jpg">

[silera]

If you're not willing to give up half of your own money, then you should probably not be telling someone else they have to give up theirs.


By that logic, I think the government shouldn't tax me anymore. I'd say most elected federal officials earn twice my salary for a part time job, and they consistently enact legislation that fucks me over. Furthermore, they fail to give me anything back on all that fucking money they take from me.

Fuck them.

Fuck them in their ear.


<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif
<font size="3" color="red">AND WHAT?</font></center><font color="FBF2F7">

[JerryTaker]

Because he is smart and motivated and rose up out of the lower middle class? It's not his fault that you don't feel you get paid enough. It's not his fault poor people exist in the world. Why are you making this his problem?


Are you fucking kidding me? You are so friggin' blind to the world, it's not even funny. Ask that same question to the employees of all the smaller companies that Microsoft destroyed and put out of business by putting a stranglehold on the Internet browser market, and the Operating system market, and the office suite market. That's millions of jobs lost because of Bill Gates. Hell yeah he deserves to live on half his salary bacause he can still buy and sell ecvery member of this messageboard on a QUARTER of his salary.

And bringing up wellfare is a completely different issue... typical republican... We're talking about the Rich vs. the MIDDLE CLASS!!! Ever hear of it? Oh I guess not, because you're a Conservative!



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Even in death you still look sad.
Don't leave me! Dont leave me, here.

[Homerismyidol]

So Bill Gates cost millions of people their jobs? Are you insane. He has created millions more jobs through his company, it's products and pushing the high tech industry to work harder. In addition, while the man is disgustingly rich, he is also generous beyond belief. He is singlehandedly putting millions of dollars up to sponsor charter schools in New York. The best part of this is that Joel Klein is the chancellor of NYC public schools. If that name is not familiar to you, he was Bill Clinton's pitbull in the Anti-trust office that prosecuted that bogus anti-trust case against Microsoft. It's ironic that all of a sudden Bill Gates is a great guy for giving NYC schools money to help Klein in his current job, but he's an evil scumbag when Klein was AOL's lapdog three years ago. The reality is that Explorer is a far superior product to netscape navigator, and that gap has grown since AOHell took it over. The problem in this country is not that the rich are taxed too much. The problem is that the government is addicted to pork, which while delicious, can cause serious heart problems in the future. When the boomers retire in the next few years you are really going to see the country go down the tubes because taxes will continue to go up and up until our economy is as useless as France or England, which by the way tax their rich as much as 75% of their income. What is the sense of even bothering at that point? Even though I am not wealthy I at least have the dream that my children and grandchildren will do better than I have. That's called the American dream.

This message was edited by Homerismyidol on 7-1-03 @ 9:44 PM

[FUNKMAN]

to be honest, now that i reflect back on my reply i really didn't mean to bash Bill Gates personally, you could probably tell I was venting a bit...

I would say that you could include him in my other item about CEO's...

I really couldn't give you "exact" statistics on what Bill Gates gives back to the community, i'm sure in most people's eyes it's a "very generous" sum. What I'm looking at more is what he is left with. Plus you have to think about the wealth of the other executives at Microsoft, i'm sure there may be another billionaire or a bunch of multi-millionaire's in their Management.

One of the "odd" (for lack of a better word) things i see is a situation where our country is running with a deficit of (what is it now, 100's of billions of dollars) and we have a few people in this country that hold wealth above the amount of our deficit.

I'm talking a few out of(what is it 400 million people)

Sure, you can say they earned it, but in my mind someone else is suffering or doing without due to this transition of wealth, or increase in wealth.

And i will say again that people at the lower end of the financial spectrum continue to get squeezed and squeezed.(like in the examples i gave in my previous reply)
And you just can't keep squeezing them. i think there may be a time where the Government will have to 'take" it from the very wealthy.

Sure you have some abusers at the bottom, people who take advantage of welfare, but it is a minority(no pun intended)

You have millions of people out of work who want to work. And a big reason for unemployment is PROFITS. This word is one of the leading causes of unemployment. How much PROFIT is enough. Got to keep the shareholders happy. Got to keep the Big Bonuses coming in for the executives.

In my mind they should pass a law that as long as corporations are making a profit they should not be allowed to layoff.

if you read that THANKS! any feedback is appreciated and just keep it light with the "go fuck myselves"


:)

<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/allthe100.gif">

[JerryTaker]

Bill Clinton's pitbull in the Anti-trust office that prosecuted that bogus anti-trust case against Microsoft.


Bill Gates told the computer retailers that if they wanted to sell computers with windows already loaded on them, that they had to have a nice, prominent Internet Explorer Icon. And at the time, IE was far inferior to netscape. Gates used more propietary software, like Frontpage, to make Netscape seem inferior because he made sure it wouldn't run right on Netscape....

...Also if you had IE and you tried to download the Netscape browser, IE would "Mysteriously" crash everytime. I remember this very well.

Now how exaclty was this not antitrust again?

I know it's a tangent, but I did a lot of reading up on this stuff when I was in college, and calling the antitrust accusations "bogus" is really showing complete and total ignorance of the situation


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Even in death you still look sad.
Don't leave me! Dont leave me, here.

[FiveB247]

I think Bill Gates has helped create a prominent technology industry and furthered us in many aspects as a society. But in some cases, the growth of technology has minimilized the human factor in employment and taken away or reduced many needs for employees, tasks and jobs in various industries. It's clearly brought more employment overall, but it has had some negative aspects as well.

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Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[FiveB247]

twice isn't always nice.

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 7-2-03 @ 11:18 AM

[Bergalad]

Are you fucking kidding me? You are so friggin' blind to the world, it's not even funny.

Curious, but why would you use "fucking" in one and only "friggin'" in the other? I find that odd.
Ask that same question to the employees of all the smaller companies that Microsoft destroyed and put out of business by putting a stranglehold on the Internet browser market, and the Operating system market, and the office suite market.

Hello, welcome to Capitalism. Enjoy your stay.
That's millions of jobs lost because of Bill Gates.
Show me stats on this. Show me anything even close to this. How about all the jobs he helped create with the boom in home computing? Dell? Gateway? Additional hardware manufacturers? I would bet that he actually greatly INCREASED the number of jobs out there. Prove me wrong.
Hell yeah he deserves to live on half his salary bacause he can still buy and sell ecvery member of this messageboard on a QUARTER of his salary.
That makes no sense. It's his fault now that you're "poor" too? He must be the Anti-Christ as well, right?
And bringing up wellfare is a completely different issue...typical republican...
Where did I mention Welfare? Oh yeah, I didn't. Nice reading job there.
We're talking about the Rich vs. the MIDDLE CLASS!!! Ever hear of it? Oh I guess not, because you're a Conservative!
Again, what? Read the whole thread before you comment. It might help your posts make some sense. My comments had nothing to do with political parties; you brought that up. You deserve to keep as much of your paycheck as possible, just as Bill Gates does. Why you feel you deserve to pay proportionately less than he should is the question.

This message was edited by Bergalad on 7-2-03 @ 12:19 PM

[HBox]

Why you feel you deserve to pay proportionately less than he should is the question.


Because Gates can afford to, and some cannot. This isn't a fair world, and as long as that holds true the tax system will not be fair. No one should seriously condone that Gates pay half his salary, but to say that a family making $25000 a year should pay the same 15% as Gates is unfair. The family can barely afford to live as it is, but they are being held to the same obligation as someone like Bill Gates?

Again, I'd like to see FICA taxes lowered and the limit removed. My mother pays twice as much in FICA taxes as she does in Federal income tax. Why do people stop paying these taxes after they earn $98000? We could lower the rate substantially, and remove that limit, and most people in this country would see big returns, even many who earn over $98000. Then, everyone would truly be paying their fair share. It would be a flat tax rate for everyone and a huge majority of this country would see a tax break substantial enough to be noticed in every single paycheck.

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[JerryTaker]

Curious, but why would you use "fucking" in one and only "friggin'" in the other? I find that odd.


I thought it would be excessive to use "fuck" twice in a sentence regarding politics... that's also how I talk...


Hello, welcome to Capitalism. Enjoy your stay.


I don't get it... You tell me this is a normal part of capitalism, then you ask me to prove it with numbers...


Show me stats on this. Show me anything even close to this. How about all the jobs he helped create with the boom in home computing? Dell? Gateway? Additional hardware manufacturers?


a) stats are bullshit. numbers are always swayed and fudged and bloated by whatever motivation puts the study together that comes up with these numbers. let's be realistic here... It's not like anyone's given any stats regarding all the wonderful jobs Bill Gates created...

b) Ummmm Bill gates owns Microsoft... They do Software. Bill Gates put many Software companies out of business. see there's a difference between Hardware and software... CIS 098



Where did I mention Welfare? Oh yeah, I didn't. Nice reading job there.


I wasn't talking about you. If you had bothered to read all the posts in the thread, then you would see that someone else brought up wellfare. I just didn't feel like quoting multiple posts... sue me

ok, now let me get this straight. You're Bill Gates, ok? You own a Gigantic company that destroyed all its competition, and people buy every shitty product you put out, no matter how badly it works or how often it crashes. People who work for you essentially have nowhere else to go. Now, given this info... how would you conduct business? Do you...

a) hire more people out of the goodness of your heart, after all, there are people out there who sure could use some money...

b) cut as many corners as possible, hire the minimum amount of people, and pay them less becasue they have nowhere else to go, altogether putting more profit in your pocket...

which one is more realistic, hmmmmmmmm?

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Even in death you still look sad.
Don't leave me! Dont leave me, here.

[Bergalad]

...but to say that a family making $25000 a year should pay the same 15% as Gates is unfair.

To me, it would be nice if both paid much lower than 15%.
The family can barely afford to live as it is, but they are being held to the same obligation as someone like Bill Gates?
They should be held to the same obligation. They have the same rights and privileges under the Constitution as Gates does. They are equal citizens under the Constitution. They are equal. Discrimintation based off wealth is still discrimination.
Again, I'd like to see FICA taxes lowered and the limit removed.
I agree. And Flat Tax for all!

Now JT.
stats are bullshit.
How convenient.
Bill Gates put many Software companies out of business. see there's a difference between Hardware and software... CIS 098
Let's do this slowly then. Software is used on computers, which use all sorts of hardware: monitors; hard drives; memory; keyboards; etc. Now let's add Internet Service Providers, game designers...the list continues. So some non-innovative software companies go under (happens every day anyway), but hundreds and hundreds of other businesses are sprouted to take advantage of the ease of Windows. Hmm. You with me now?
I just didn't feel like quoting multiple posts... sue me
Obviously I can't expect extra work out of you, especially in a thread where you want successful people to pay for your desired standard of living.
and people buy every shitty product you put out, no matter how badly it works or how often it crashes.
Um, what operating system are you using right now? If you don't like it, don't complain about it.
People who work for you essentially have nowhere else to go.
Really. What about game designers? Webmasters? The whole slew of non-Microsoft software companies out there? Nowhere else to go? Alright Mayonaise.

This whole idea that Gates should give up his cash for the poor is retarded. He makes more than anyone else on the planet, so should he give out money to every person alive? You (people in general) don't like how much you make? Get a better job, and don't start with the "I can't, because..." bullshit. That's the exact reason you're poor, because you don't have the will to do anything about your situation. Blame Gates for being rich, make him pay for your laziness, that's the ticket! How stupid and petty. Gates is an equal citizen along with every other asshole in this country, and as such has no greater or lesser responsibility to it than anyone else.

[silera]

They have the same rights and privileges under the Constitution as Gates does. They are equal citizens under the Constitution. They are equal. Discrimintation based off wealth is still discrimination.



That's only in theory. In reality, the more money you have, the better the constitution works for you. People with less economic resources don't get to live where the good schools are. They don't get to buy homes away from pollution, crime, and congestion. When they get arrested, they are pretty much railroaded to a guilty verdict.

On the one hand, you seem quite aware of reality yet only choose to apply it to the elite few that really don't have to face it because they can create their own.

It is an unfair world. The American Dream is possible for many through hard work. However, the burden of taxes cannot be based upon that dream because it is not the reality. For every success story there are 1000 other American citizens that are busting their asses and coming up short at the end of the day.

The reason taxing the rich doesn't sit well with all of us is that obviously, we hope to one day be that rich. I would think however, that there comes a point when you have enough.

It is almost un-American and defeatist to think that you have enough. Having enough however, isn't a bad thing. The drive to always want more is dangerous and at the root of all the scandals like Enron and MCI.

So, the rich have enough and because of that, their percentage of income paid to taxes should be higher than the other 85% of the country.

I think a good solution would be to create comparative tax brackets. IE: Basing it on a formula like 10% of citizens hold 50% of the country's wealth. (Just random numbers, I don't know if they're true).



<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif
<font size="3" color="red">AND WHAT?</font></center><font color="FBF2F7">

[FiveB247]

This whole idea that Gates should give up his cash for the poor is retarded. He makes more than anyone else on the planet, so should he give out money to every person alive? You (people in general) don't like how much you make? Get a better job, and don't start with the "I can't, because..." bullshit. That's the exact reason you're poor, because you don't have the will to do anything about your situation. Blame Gates for being rich, make him pay for your laziness, that's the ticket! How stupid and petty. Gates is an equal citizen along with every other asshole in this country, and as such has no greater or lesser responsibility to it than anyone else.

First off let me say, that I don't believe Gates should pay for others...at worst case, he should pay the same percent on his holdings and worth that everyone else does.

But with that said, such things don't occur (due to inflated salaries, stock holdings as well as retirement plans, amongst others items). For all the fortune Gates has made, how many of all the microsoft operations, ideas and products are actually his? He virtually ripped off the original idea and placed it onto the market before his competitors. With the rising of status in such a company, the accountability is lessened and the salary is increased tremendously. It's got very little to do with the laziness of poor as you call it or the initiative of rich. The economy and capitalism we proclaim is so great, hurts the long term efficiency as well as competitive nature of pure capitalism. Adam Smith's "invisible hand" form of economy only works on localized and community levels. Conglomerations, corporations, buy-outs, take- overs and mergers are hurting the market as well as the consumers option for choice and competition. The illusion of the American dream is long dead. The new American way is to work, consume products and die. To simply point out the small group in society that are "lazy" or don't actually have the opportunities you talk of, and to blame them for their own level of standing is irresponsible and neglectful. People like Gates get where they are in life due to using cutthroat tactics and devilish business decisions that not only hurt/ end other companies...it takes the human cost/ factor out of the equation. But similar to most "well respected media" like the Wall Street Journal, NY Times and other financial distortions, people are taught to envy, emulate and follow the paths of such evil scoundrels.

Silera, I agree with many of your points. 85% of the wealth in the US is owned by 15% of the population....taxes would be quite different.

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Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 7-2-03 @ 4:29 PM

[Bergalad]

Hi Silera. I do understand what you are saying, and although I don't agree with it, I hope you have a great holiday weekend.
In reality, the more money you have, the better the constitution works for you.
I feel the Constitution grants everyone the same rights, and it's up to the individual to use them. Sure there are circumstances which limit some people, but I believe the majority of Americans can do a lot better than they are right now. We don't push ourselves to do more because we know there is a social program there to pick up the slack.
For every success story there are 1000 other American citizens that are busting their asses and coming up short at the end of the day.

Absolutely true. But again, why is the one success story responisble to fund the 1000 that didn't make it? Why? That's what's happening...the success story is required to pay proportionately much more of his money than the others because he is more successful then they are? I don't see why that should be. It's not his (or her of course) fault that those 1000 aren't at his level. Let's look at it like this: should you Silera be penalized because you've hot and 1000 other women aren't? Is it your fault they are not attractive? Then why should you be punished for their shortcomings? I know looks and income are not the same, so pardon the generalism of the analogy, but you get the idea.
The reason taxing the rich doesn't sit well with all of us is that obviously, we hope to one day be that rich.
I am against unfair taxation because it's not fair. I don't expect to become rich, and I certainly am not rich now. I am all for fairness though, and don't think one group should have to contribute more than any other.
I would think however, that there comes a point when you have enough.
I would think so too, but who is to decide what enough is? It should be the person aquiring the wealth, not the masses. If you think you have enough, then give the money away or do whatever. That's what Gates does.
So, the rich have enough and because of that, their percentage of income paid to taxes should be higher than the other 85% of the country.
Again, I just can't agree with that. Everyone should pay the same level, ie the Flat Tax. Like I said, I am in the Army, so I'm not rich and never will be. Equality is a big thing to me, and therefore I can't get behind any program or idea that penalizes one group over another.

Have a great 4th of July.

This message was edited by Bergalad on 7-2-03 @ 5:15 PM

[silera]

I can't disagree with you more that taxes punish the rich. Punishment implies suffering. How would the rich suffer if they were left with 3 million instead of 6 million at the end of the day?

I think I posted this somewhere else.

You're moving, and you have a heavy chest, some moving boxes, and some plastic bags.

Are you going to distribute all of your belongings evenly or blindly into these three items? The strong chest could end up carrying pillows, while all your books are ripping through the plastic bags.

It's just common sense that unfortunately our federal government refuses to display.

There are ideals that are noble and in a perfect world no one in our democracy would go without or suffer or need.

However that is not the case. For every 1 person that may abuse of our social service programs, I'd say there are 10 that abuse of their lobbying power, money and influence and cause much more damage economically, and on our society as a whole.

I'm far from a socialist or a liberal, but until we can educate, house, feed, employ, and provide healthcare for our citizens meaningfully, the US is not living up to its covenant with the American people. So, social programs have to exist, and the more fortunate should pay them because they're part of the whole idea of America too and they get a WHOLE fucking lot out of it.


As far as who gets to decide who's rich, I think it's very simply. Take each individual tax payer/couple's gross income and divide it by the national gross income. Then lump the people that fall within a range of each other together. Then you tax inversely.

I don't know what the fuck to do about corporations. I don't even want to go there.

EDIT: Happy Independance Day! I'll be bartending at a strip club, living the American Dream... :)

<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif
<font size="3" color="red">AND WHAT?</font></center><font color="FBF2F7">

This message was edited by silera on 7-2-03 @ 6:13 PM

[Bestinshow]

The top 400 reported 1.1 percent of all income earned in 2000, up from 0.5 percent in 1992. Their taxes grew at a much slower rate, from 1 percent of all taxes in 1992 to 1.6 percent in 2000, when their tax bills averaged $38.6 million each.


Those numbers can be read to show that the wealthiest, as a group, carried a disproportionate share of the overall tax burden 1.6 percent of all taxes, versus just 1.1 percent of all income evidence that all sides in the tax debate will be able to find ammunition in the data.


You can all relax. The rich are paying more than their share.


In 2000, the top 400 on average paid 22.3 percent of their income in federal income tax, down from 26.4 percent in 1992 and a peak of 29.9 percent in 1995. Two factors explain most of this decline, according to the I.R.S.: reduced tax rates on long-term capital gains and bigger gifts to charity.


If you notice, the article fails to note the average percentage paid by everyone else. I will tell you as a CPA, the average taxpayer pays much less than 22.3% tax on their income. In fact, for married taxpayers,the first $55,900 after deductions and exemptions are subtracted from your income are only taxed at 10-15%.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

<marquee>98% I used to buy 2% but it tastes like water<marquee>

[FiveB247]

Bestinshow...I'm not going to argue numbers with you. I think the problem lies in one of the two scenarios....1) Tax brackets and cuts guard the rich or 2) You are a devout Republican, shielding the rich via funny math. Either way...the separation of wealth is growing (and has been) in our nation and it is not an accident. The victim is the average working people, which is the majority.

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[Bergalad]

As far as who gets to decide who's rich, I think it's very simply. Take each individual tax payer/couple's gross income and divide it by the national gross income. Then lump the people that fall within a range of each other together. Then you tax inversely.
That popping sound you heard was my brain exploding. My dying words: "FLAT TAX!"

Bestinshow, could you provide a link for those figures of yours? That would help quite a bit in this discussion. Thanks.

[A.J.]

How would the rich suffer if they were left with 3 million instead of 6 million at the end of the day?

They wouldn't have as many cars, tacky decorations and other useless crap to show off on MTV's "Cribs".

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">

A Skidmark production.

[Bestinshow]

Bestinshow, could you provide a link for those figures of yours? That would help quite a bit in this discussion. Thanks.


Actually, the ironic thing is most of my "Funny math" was from five`s link. Most of those numbers were from that article. As far as that tax bracket information, it was taken out of the 2003 master tax guide, and than I adjusted by the new tax reform which changed the married 15% bracket to double that of the single 15% bracket.(Which effectively removes the marriage penalty)



Bestinshow...I'm not going to argue numbers with you. I think the problem lies in one of the two scenarios....1) Tax brackets and cuts guard the rich or 2) You are a devout Republican, shielding the rich via funny math. Either way...the separation of wealth is growing (and has been) in our nation and it is not an accident. The victim is the average working people, which is the majority.


Five, Funny math? These were numbers from your F`en article. I didn't have to do anything with them. Tax brackets and cuts guard the rich? Maybe you should stop reading from anarchist and radical sites and understand the material you are talking about. Instead of reading that propaganda that you love to spew, why dont learn who the cuts are for and how the brackets work. You have no clue how wrong you are.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

<marquee>98% I used to buy 2% but it tastes like water<marquee>

This message was edited by Bestinshow on 7-3-03 @ 1:22 PM

[TooCute]

You mean "I can't make more money because xxx" ISN'T a valid excuse? WOO HOO!! Watch out Bill Gates, cause here I come!!

Bergalad, if you think that everyone in the country can make more money than they currently do if only they had the will... well... nevermind, it's not even worth explaining.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

[Bergalad]

Hi TooCute. We've all talked about this before, and I know where you stand (tax the rich, they don't need the money) and you know where I stand (flat tax so everyone can pay equally), so I would prefer not to fight it out again.

To answer your question though, I do think that each physically capable person can achieve what they want in this country if they try. I didn't like the job I had, I got a new one. Why is this so hard for others to do? Because I had willpower and motivation and they didn't? Yes. I don't buy the "I didn't have the same education" or whatever. Then go out and get more education! It's not that hard to do, especially if you try even a little bit. Everyone's always in denial about something, eager to blame their past for why they can't do something now. I don't accept those things as reasonable excuses.

Anyway, have a great 4th. A soldier who is home on emergency leave came into my office an hour ago. He heads back to Iraq on the 4th, so please remember to raise a glass to the men and women in Iraq (and everywhere else) right now who are ensuring our freedom.

[Recyclerz]

They wouldn't have as many cars, tacky decorations and other useless crap to show off on MTV's "Cribs".


AJ, with the parabolic rise and fall of rap/pop/rock stars these days, all that bling is rented, in fact if not in name.

The real Rich show up in Architectural Digest



There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon, he never lived 'round here.

[Recyclerz]

Read This! (http://famulus.msnbc.com/famulusgen/businessweek07-03-080102a.asp?t=bwcom)

Even if you don't read any of my other posts, and all evidence suggests you don't (not that there is any compelling reason to read them, of course) read the article linked above. It is an almost perfectly on-point little pensee about the problems with the viewpoints expressed here while everyone is talking or yelling past one another.



There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon, he never lived 'round here.

[JerryTaker]

Berglad, I think we're all sick of arguing with you at this point. You have proven over and over that you have no grasp of reality. You live in some happy sunny world where people are rewarded for hard work and anyone can go out and get a good education and a well paying job just because they want it enough.

Instead we live in a harsh dark world where those who have become wealthy use every resource at their disposal to make sure that nobody else joins them in their elite little corner. they buy politicians, and you know it... Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Whoever... Rich people who want to stay rich, and they stay rich by making sure there are less people to give thier money to

Maybe there needs to be less people in the world... Maybe the Suicide rate in the country needs a jump. Maybe I'll start working on that... Because the seperation has gotten to far. The government wants to make a dividing line and make it so that everyone below it runs out of options other than dying in the desert so the rich can have more oil. There's no more hope....


<IMG SRC="http://afs30.njit.edu/~gsm2321/snowsig.gif">

Even in death you still look sad.
Don't leave me! Dont leave me, here.

[TooCute]

Hi TooCute. We've all talked about this before, and I know where you stand (tax the rich, they don't need the money

Actually, I don't think I've ever mentioned anything about taxes, because I really don't know what I think about them. I would venture a guess that all else being equal I would prefer a flat tax, but since all else isn't equal, I'm not really too sure. I think that the current tax brackets are utterly retarded, but that's about as far as I've gotten.

Again, I'm just arguing - no, not even arguing - I'm just telling you that you are absolutely wrong on this point - that no, people can not make as much money as they need or want if they just have the will power. It's fantastic that you're in the army, where perhaps that is the case, but in the real world people have real lives. I can't see how you can be so delusional to think that the answer to everything is just "go out and get a new job" and "go out and get more education" - my only thought is that you must have grown up comfortably in a white suburban community or else you really are blind to not see the way so many people are forced (oops, I mean desire - since if they didn't want to, they wouldn't have to) to live in this country.


Your statements concerning this matter are astoundingly naive. I guess if we all try we can all be as rich as Bill Gates, right?




<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

[Bergalad]

Maybe the Suicide rate in the country needs a jump. Maybe I'll start working on that...
Hope that all works out for you then.


Actually, I don't think I've ever mentioned anything about taxes, because I really don't know what I think about them.
Well then.
that no, people can not make as much money as they need or want if they just have the will power.
I didn't say everyone, I said able-bodied people can achieve more than they are now if they try. You say I am wrong, I say I'm right. Great.
I can't see how you can be so delusional to think that the answer to everything is just "go out and get a new job" and "go out and get more education"
I said those were answers to the usual excuses given for being poor. Oh and then this one of course:
my only thought is that you must have grown up comfortably in a white suburban community...
nicely racist of you racisty racist! Who ever said I was white? Only whites can be successful and happy? Boo hoo! Only the whites can live the American Dream?! With comments like that, no wonder you're an enabler of the lazy and complacent.
Your statements concerning this matter are astoundingly naive.
Oh sure. And this statement here
It's fantastic that you're in the army, where perhaps that is the case, but in the real world people have real lives.
just reeks of genius, right? Yup, all of us military folk are just living it up in Fantasy Land right now! Good call!

[FiveB247]

Instead we live in a harsh dark world where those who have become wealthy use every resource at their disposal to make sure that nobody else joins them in their elite little corner. they buy politicians, and you know it... Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Whoever... Rich people who want to stay rich, and they stay rich by making sure there are less people to give thier money to

Preach on my brother...
http://www.ratm.com/new2/gallery/covers/comp_testify.jpg

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[Se7en]

You have proven over and over that you have no grasp of reality.


I find it highly ironic that Mr. "Bush / Republicans is / are destroying all that is good and pure in the world" is claiming that another human being has no grasp on reality.

<img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/captainamerica.jpg" width="300" height="100">
<br>
<br>
Is the Captain a member of the proud <b>2%</b>?

[FiveB247]

Only whites can be successful and happy? Boo hoo! Only the whites can live the American Dream?!

Well it certainly is easy to play the race card and pass it off when you're defending the rich whites now isn't it.

With comments like that, no wonder you're an enabler of the lazy and complacent.

Nice level statement. Btw, where do you have your sheets cleaned to wear? Just wondering...

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[Lummox]

ANSWER: Flat tax, MA FUCKAS. Only nobody's got the sack to make it happen. And I am a REPUBLICAN!! It's so simple, but it would put so many beureaucrats out of work. Disgusting.

This message was edited by Lummox on 7-4-03 @ 1:44 AM

[Bergalad]

I am a little stunned at the amount of racism in this board. I am condoning equality for everyone, no matter you background. Any attempts to paint me as racially biased will be shat on.

Conversely though, those here who are saying that the only ones who can succeed in America are rich white males, well...you're the problem with this country. You want to make this all about color and zip code, and in doing so perpetuate the welfare state. Go ahead and keep making excuses why people (of all colors) won't improve their situations. You pay for their laziness; let those of us who have some self-respect keep our paychecks.

[Yerdaddy]

You have to remember when you're dealing with conservatives that they are idealists; that they live in a utopian world. See, in their world the rich are rich because they deserve to be. The rich are all rich beccause they worked hard and earned every penny. The poor are also poor because they deserve to be. There are only two reasons for a person to be poor: because they are lazy, and because liberals want them to be poor, (no further causality required - no realistic motive).

In their world the following things never happen:

- Wealth is never inherited. There are no prep schools to shelter wealthy children from the horrors of public schools, and to make sure that elite colleges know exactly where to find them when it's time to get them.

- The rich never use their wealth to gain political power and wield it to serve their own interests. When the executives from Exxon, Raytheon, GE, etc. spend $250,000 per head to send executives to both Democratic and Republican party fundraisers on the same night, it's because they truly believe that they represent the ideas and values that are best for America as a whole, and because the dinners are just that good. They expect nothing in return for those piles of money given out to supposedly rival politcal parties. When executives from George W. Bush's all-time largest politcal campaign contributor, Enron, met with the vice president behind closed doors, they were just there to talk about who was going to be voted off the island on the next "Survivor." When the wealthy give gobs of cash to local polititions it's never to make sure that school budgets continue to be based on local property taxes so that in order to go a good school a child's parents have to be able to buy an expensive house in the right school district. And they never ask that zoning laws be set up to keep low-income houses out of their neighborhoods. None of that ever happens.

- Poor people never get sick; they're always faking. Nobody is ever poor because they have cancer or mental illness, or gave birth to a child with downs syndrome or leukemia and were dropped from their health insurance policy as a result. There are no teams of lawyers paid to drag out resulting lawsuits until the plaintiff cannot invest any more time or money into fighting for the coverage they paid for. All lawsuits are frivolous, all big companies are helpless victims. All those 40 million people without health insurance can actually afford it, but they choose to spend their money on other frivolous things, (like food and rent), so they can get other people to pay their doctor bills for them. It's the best kept secret that county hospitals provide the best care in town.

- Welfare = $1,000,000 a month.

- The poor lack family values. And any child that grows up in a home without family values has no excuse for not getting them from one of those great schools he/she goes to, or from the people right there on the street. And just because black people spent centuries in America being separated from their families through the slave market, and then excluded from the post-war middle-class suburban expansion and legally herded into separate communities with few low-paying jobs that would eventually be shipped overseas for cheaper labor, they get one generation from the end of legalized discrimination and segregation to get their shit together. After that it's their own fault.

- A child growing up in a ghetto has the same opportunity for success as a child growing up in a gated community.

It's a utopian view of the world they have. But the difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals' utopian view of the world is an ideal that we, as a society should try to move toward, while the conservatives already live in their perfect world - where everyone deserves what they have and has what they deserve. Poor people are bad people, and rich people are good people. Where liberals try to come up with solutions to problems, conservatives will never hear of solutions because there are no problems. The only problem is whe

[TooCute]

I guess I'm not as articulate as yerdaddy because I deserve to be.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

[Bergalad]

Where liberals try to come up with solutions to problems, conservatives will never hear of solutions because there are no problems.

Your solution seems to be to throw money at an issue until it gets worse. Welfare programs have not brought about the great improvements we were promised. All of the social engineering you appear to support hasn't made this country any better, and I say it's gotten worse. But that's your solution: give out more money to the "underpriviledged". Nowhere do you mention personal accountability. That is telling.

I am not saying every person can be rich. In fact, I don't think that's even important. Hell, I'm not rich. I just want everything to be equal. That's what this thread is about, taxes. Did you all forget? I want everyone who enjoys the rights and liberties of this county to contribute an equal amount back to it. I don't want to hear the excuses that the "poor" have less rights than the "rich". It's bull, and I don't accept it. That's the arguement made for failure. Let's all, rich, poor, inbetween, go out and enjoy our freedom today. I've said all I desire to say in this thread.

This message was edited by Bergalad on 7-4-03 @ 11:19 AM

[HBox]

http://www.se7en-x.com/argue/argue.jpg

Have a happy Fourth, everybody!

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

This message was edited by HBox on 7-4-03 @ 11:37 AM

[FiveB247]

Your solution seems to be to throw money at an issue until it gets worse.

Isn't this how every issue is dealt with in our nation though? (Exept the military of course, that's guarded).

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[JerryTaker]

FiveB, I hate RATM with a burning Passion, Se7en, don't talk unless you have something compelling to say. Berglad, sit on a tack.

I hate being ganged up on. TooCute and Yerdaddy have proven they can say these things better than I can. And I have to devote too much of my time figuring out how to pay the rent and my insanely high college loan bills and car insurance (NJ, baby!) on my meager unemployment while I contnue to get turned down for decent paying jobs; all the while waiting to get sick or something, because no hospital will treat me, because I already owe one hospital money. So really I'm just waiting to die, and listening to all you people tell me how great the world we live in is.... Shut Up!

<IMG SRC="http://afs30.njit.edu/~gsm2321/snowsig.gif">

Even in death you still look sad.
Don't leave me! Dont leave me, here.

[HBox]

And I have to devote too much of my time figuring out how to pay the rent and my insanely high college loan bills and car insurance (NJ, baby!) on my meager unemployment while I contnue to get turned down for decent paying jobs; all the while waiting to get sick or something, because no hospital will treat me, because I already owe one hospital money


Think positively. If you do get sick, just about all student loans have clauses that allow you to default if you are disabled. So that's one less thing you have to worry about!

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[Se7en]

Think positively. If you do get sick, just about all student loans have clauses that allow you to default if you are disabled. So that's one less thing you have to worry about!


Is this true?

If so, than I think I've suddenly contracted monkey pox......

<img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/captainamerica.jpg" width="300" height="100">
<br>
<br>
Is the Captain a member of the proud <b>2%</b>?

[HBox]

Yes you can, but there are very strict criteria. (http://www.dlssonline.com/otherforms/otherforms-req.asp?OthfId=dsch_tdis)

You can also discharge Federal Perkins loans if you are a teacher and you take a job in a low-income school district.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

This message was edited by HBox on 7-4-03 @ 8:34 PM

[FiveB247]

Jerry...sorry to hear you hate RATM. I like their music and some of their messages...not all. They were great in concert though.

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[silera]

Bravo Yerdaddy.

I just can't get over the whole notion that my paycheck doesn't cover my expenses because I do not work enough.

I've worked since I was 11 years old not counting the extra and movie work I did as a kid. I got full scholarships to elite junior high schools and high schools and worked every summer and break I had.

I worked to the LAST day of each of my pregnancies. I actually went to work in labor for my youngest because I had requested maternity leave the following Monday. I worked until 10:05, even going so far as to bring my boss tea before I got into a cab at 10:15 am to go home and get my stuff to go to the hospital only to give birth in my bed in my apartment at 11:05. If you want to confirm this, I'll email you my youngest's birth certificate that has my home address listed as the place of birth.

So, when anyone states that people don't make ends meet because they don't have ambition, I can't believe you. I know that I work 60+ hours a week. Between rent, utilities, daycare, taxes, health insurance and basic necessities, I've been living pay check to pay check for 8 yrs.

Sadly, I know you'll say I could have chosen not to have children and I'd be fine. However, I'll say this.

My life won't be measured in how much money I've accumulated at the end of it. I have children because it brings me joy to know that I can affect, love, raise, educate, and bring happiness to them. I don't think only the well off have a right to bear children and I don't believe that my instincts to reproduce should be restricted by artificial calibers of my ability to bear children.

I am a good mom, and I do my best to provide. The only place that I am at fault right now, is that our government does NOT recognize the fact that people are hurting, and unrepresented and carrying too much to handle.

So, tell me about a flat tax when some rich mother fucker has to live pay check to pay check, and feel like a failure because she has to enroll her kids in public school next year because she just can't cover tuition and rent.



<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif
<font size="3" color="red">AND WHAT?</font></center><font color="FBF2F7">

[high fly]

I am deeply, madly, insanely in love with Silera.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Bestinshow]

This thread had digressed into what most of our political threads have digressed into. A bunch of meaningless bullshit. To blanketly blame poverty
and the general difficulty of afording life itself on laziness and lack of ambition is idealistic, but it is just as idealistic as blaming it on the rich is cynical. And both arguments are just as ineffective as they are without basis. Wouldn,t life be simple if we could blame all our problems on lazy people, minorities, white people, and yes, rich people. Its amazing how many liberals on this board feel free to make blanket generalizations about rich white people. I have news for all of you, depending on what occupation you are, geography, age, era, and other circumstances, there are prejudices against all groups. And sometimes there are just no opportunities. It can be a matter of the luck of the draw. Bad career choices. And yes some circumstances such as raising a child and a living at the same time are inherently difficult. But blaming all our problems on one social or economic group is both groundless and naive. I have always worked, paper route at 13, warehouse job, college bookstore, accounting clerk and a CPA. I got no money from my parents for school so I used financial aid to get an associates degree and with that got a job that paid tuition reimbursement. That coupled with student loans got me my accounting degree. I will probably never be rich but at the same time I can afford a nice life in the suburbs, which is not to say that it is without the pressure of the bills that it brings. Yet this is a path that anyone can follow. I am white, nobody threw any fortunes at me. In fact, my path would have been simpler if I was a minority because there are many special interest groups and quotas that would have made my journey easier. And don`t tell me this isn`t so because I know of many incidences where this has occurred. And I am no more likely than any of you to be rich, regardless of your color and creed. I am not naive enough to believe that there aren't people out there who have earned fortunes on the blood and sweat of others, sometimes illegally, but unfortunately this exists in all segments of society. It is part of human nature in some circumstances. It exists in the murderer who shoots the store clerk for the days draw. And there are people out there who have legally attained hugh amounts of wealth. And yes, they pass it on to their children who don't have to work for it. And yes, some of them look down at us working stiffs as less than them. But in this country there is no crime against being rich. If they are fortunate enough to have attained great wealth, they are entitled to keep a significant portion of it, even if they aren't nice. And as you can see by Five's article , they pay more than their share of tax.
I don't know where this misnomer comes from that the rich don't pay enough tax. In fact, per Fives article the top 400 in the country pay an average of 22% tax. And while the percentage is close to someone making $130,000, the dollars aren't. For every million thay make, they are paying $220,000 in taxes at those percentages. Obviously that is much more than the average working person. And while the ratio is 1.6% of the taxes vs 1% of the income, they represent much less than 1% of the population. So they are paying much more than their share. Maybe we have to find another culprit
for our hardships then capitalism.


<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

<marquee>98% I used to buy 2% but it tastes like water<marquee>

[FUNKMAN]

they pay their fair share of taxes, PLEASE! people at the middle and bottom are getting "so fucked over" but there are some who just say "thank you, may i have another" You are being naive...

let me ask you, has your salary doubled in the past 8 years and have your taxes gone down "significantly"?

400 hundred people in America account for 1% of the income, my math is atrocious but tell me what % is 400 to the total population in America?

Richest Americans Double Their Take, Pay Less

By David Cay Johnston
New York Times Service NEW YORK -- The 400 wealthiest taxpayers accounted for more than 1 percent of all the income in the United States in 2000, more than double their share just eight years earlier, according to new data from the Internal Revenue Service. But their tax burden plummeted over the period.

The data, in a report that the IRS released Wednesday night, shows that the average income of the 400 wealthiest taxpayers was almost $174 million in 2000. That was nearly quadruple the $46.8 million average in 1992. The minimum income to qualify for the list was $86.8 million in 2000, more than triple the minimum income of $24.4 million of the 400 wealthiest taxpayers in 1992.

While the sharp growth in incomes over that period coincided with the stock market bubble, other factors appear to account for much of the increase. A cut in capital gains tax rates in 1997 to 20 percent from 28 percent encouraged long-term holders of assets, like privately owned businesses, to sell them, and big increases in executive compensation thrust corporate chiefs into the ranks of the nation's aristocracy.

This year's tax cut reduced the capital gains rate further, to 15 percent.

The data from 2000 is the latest available from the IRS, but various government reports indicate that salaries, dividends and other forms of income have continued to rise since then, even as the stock market has fallen.

The top 400 reported 1.1 percent of all income earned in 2000, up from 0.5 percent in 1992. Their taxes grew at a much slower rate, from 1 percent of all taxes in 1992 to 1.6 percent in 2000, when their tax bills averaged $38.6 million each.

Those numbers can be read to show that the wealthiest, as a group, carried a disproportionate share of the overall tax burden -- 1.6 percent of all taxes, versus just 1.1 percent of all income -- evidence that all sides in the tax debate will be able to find ammunition in the data.

In 2000, the top 400 on average paid 22.3 percent of their income in federal income tax, down from 26.4 percent in 1992 and a peak of 29.9 percent in 1995. Two factors explain most of this decline, according to the IRS: reduced tax rates on long-term capital gains and bigger gifts to charity.

Had U.S. President George W. Bush's latest tax cuts been in effect in 2000, the average tax bill for the top 400 would have been about $30.4 million -- a savings of $8.3 million, or more than a fifth, according to an analysis of the IRS data by The New York Times. That would have resulted in an average tax rate of 17.5 percent.

The rate actually paid by the top 400 in 2000 was about the same as that paid by a single person making $123,000 or a married couple with two children earning $226,000, according to Citizens for Tax Justice, a labor-backed group whose calculations are respected by a broad spectrum of tax experts.

Detailed information about high-income Americans has become increasingly important in setting tax policy, because the government relies on the top 1.3 million households for 37.4 percent of individual federal income tax revenue. The half of Americans who earned less than $27,682 in 2000, paid less than 4 percent of income taxes.




<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/whats100.jpg">

[high fly]

Let's see....Warren Buffet would be in that top 400.
He's worth about 30 billion and is taxed on about 300,000.
Sounds fair to me.
Indeed, he probably needs a bigger tax cut.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Bestinshow]

Its so Fucking annoying when people post shit they don't understand.





Let's see....Warren Buffet would be in that top 400.He's worth about 30 billion and is taxed on about 300,000.
Sounds fair to me.
Indeed, he probably needs a bigger tax cut


That is 1.6% of the total tax paid by all. 1.6% of the total tax paid by everyone. Not a 1% income tax. At $30 Billion at 22% (If you read and understood the article) that would be $6.6 Billion.




they pay their fair share of taxes, PLEASE! people at the middle and bottom are getting "so fucked over" but there are some who just say "thank you, may i have another" You are being naive...


That is the same article five linked to. Did you read my posts above which were also quotes? They make up 1.6% of the tax and only 1% of the income. They are not 1% of the population, but they are not 1.6% of the population either. So even though they make up a small fraction of one percent of the population, they pay 1.6% of the tax. I hope I don't have to explain how disproportionate that is, which by the way, is what that article alludes to. And their taxes didn't go down, their percentage to the whole went down. While no wthey pay 1.6% of the total tax , they used to pay over 2%.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

<marquee>98% I used to buy 2% but it tastes like water<marquee>

[FUNKMAN]

While no wthey pay 1.6% of the total tax , they used to pay over 2%


either way you cut it they are still excessively rich...

can you agree that these people earn higher interest on their money? why is their money worth more than yours and mine. The average person gets about 1% in their bank account, would you think these people are earning a higher interest than that.

Do these people need to take loans to pay for their cars, homes, or personal items? What interest are people at the middle and lower ends paying for these loans? People at the lower end who most likely have a mark on their credit are paying the "highest" interest on loans...

What % of a person's income who is at the middle and lower level has to go towards Medical coverage and Home and Auto insurance, and towards prescription drugs...

Do these top 400 pay penalties on their checking accounts or mortgage loans(PMI)... because they are unable to keep a certain sum in the account or provide 20% downpayment...

there are 6.4 million people out of work yet the CEO's and other Executives of these corporations(who make up alot of this list) continue to see increases in salary, it's basically just "not fair"...

you try to use the numbers above to back up your argument but it's not the only thing that is disproportianate...





<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/whats100.jpg">

[Bestinshow]

can you agree that these people earn higher interest on their money? why is their money worth more than yours and mine. The average person gets about 1% in their bank account, would you think these people are earning a higher interest than that.



No, I don't agree because that isn't true. The same investments, (Money market, stocks, bonds, CD's, Mutual Funds) are available to us as them. The average person who sets up retirement accounts, if they research wisely have many investment choices. Obviously, rich people have more money to invest and take chances but that is the nature of the beast.


either way you cut it they are still excessively rich...


Yes they are, and despite the fact that most of us aren't, there is nothing wrong with that. People are entitled to earn what they can and give it to who they want to. As long as they pay their taxes, they can keep the rest and burn it if they want to. This is not a socialist society. We have no right to tell someone what they can earn and what they do with it.



there are 6.4 million people out of work yet the CEO's and other Executives of these corporations(who make up alot of this list) continue to see increases in salary, it's basically just "not fair"...


I'm sorry but life isn't fair, in many ways. People are born rich or poor, healthy and sick, intelligent and simple, its sometimes simply the luck of the draw. But who are we to decide that someone has to give more than their share because life sucks for most but not them. They are no more responsible to help out than their share of taxes. It would be nice if they made donations to charities, and many such as Bill Gates do. But they have a right to be selfish, stuck up egotistical pricks, as long as they pay their taxes.



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[FiveB247]

The same investments, (Money market, stocks, bonds, CD's, Mutual Funds) are available to us as them. The average person who sets up retirement accounts, if they research wisely have many investment choices. Obviously, rich people have more money to invest and take chances but that is the nature of the beast.

85% of the US's stocks, bonds and real estate is owned by about 15% of the population. The rich get better investment rates, interest rates which make them richer. Go try and open a back account with a small amount of money in "dignified" or "respected" bank and they will laugh at you. They are geared and based for the rich and their accounts. The only thing readily available to the middle and lower classes is credit which builds debt and further makes the rich, richer. It's naive to believe the middle or lower classes have the same options and opportunities that the rich do.

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[Bestinshow]

Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?


Five, this little slogan pretty much sums up your philosophies. Sorry to inform you put capitalism is part of democratic values. You can continue to read your left wing propaganda and preach socialism. I'll stick with Capitalism thank you.



85% of the US's stocks, bonds and real estate is owned by about 15% of the population. The rich get better investment rates, interest rates which make them richer. Go try and open a back account with a small amount of money in "dignified" or "respected" bank and they will laugh at you. They are geared and based for the rich and their accounts. The only thing readily available to the middle and lower classes is credit which builds debt and further makes the rich, richer. It's naive to believe the middle or lower classes have the same options and opportunities that the rich do.


Why don't you stop reading your left wing propaganda and learn what is really going on. What a bunch of bullshit. If you know anything about investing, every house has different minimum requirements but most allow opening an account with $5,000. While not everyone has this, this hardly qualifies as fortune 500. As far as preferential interest rates, that is illegal. All funds trade publicly and are available over the counter. Your right wing conspiracy bullshit is created by the left who obsess with attacking the wealthier classes. You have no information backing these statements because they are out right lies. As far as rich investors owning more assets than us, Doy, obviously they do. But sorry, in this country, you are allowed to accumulate wealth.I am thankful that people with your philosophies aren't running things because despite your denials, you will not be happy with anything short of wealth redistribution. You show me the "respected" or "dignified" bank that has laughed at your business. I bet you haven't even tried it.

The only thing readily available to the middle and lower classes is credit which builds debt and further makes the rich, richer.
I am just as guilty as the next guy as abusing my credit cards. But to blame our irresponsible spending on the rich is typical of your arguments. It is our choice to spend what we don't have. And as far as it making the rich richer, why don't you stop with this whole us against them anticapitalism propaganda. If you knew anything about banking, the interest income affects a whole cross section of people, rich as well as poor. Rich people have more money to invest so naturally they have more investment income. This is America live with it. I am tired of people blaming all the problems of society on people just because they have money. I can start pointing my finger in lots of directions, but I am not going to start with that.

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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 7-8-03 @ 1:59 PM

[Bestinshow]

BTW, there are several other conservatives on this board. Why do all vanish whenever I get involved in a thread?

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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 7-8-03 @ 3:28 PM

[Bergalad]

BTW, there are several other conservatives on this board. Why do all vanish whenever I get involved in a thread?

It's not you. I was getting bored with the poor pity party and saidI've said all I desire to say in this thread.

[Yerdaddy]

BTW, there are several other conservatives on this board. Why do all vanish whenever I get involved in a thread?
Maybe it's because a rich pity party isn't an easy ticket to sell.

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[FUNKMAN]

BTW, there are several other conservatives on this board. Why do all vanish whenever I get involved in a thread?


it's your breath...
:)

alright, that was uncalled for

a winner should never gloat and put down the opposition, my apologies...

<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/whats100.jpg">

[Duke]

look there i something that some of you guys are not understanding your tax is based on your income..the only way the rich could be paying less is if they retire......


STOP MAKING FUN OF THE RICH JUST BECAUSE THEY MAKE MORE MONEY THAN U......AND HALF OF THEM EARNED IT.......

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[Yerdaddy]

AND HALF OF THEM EARNED IT.......

priceless

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[HBox]

look there i something that some of you guys are not understanding your tax is based on your income..the only way the rich could be paying less is if they retire......


Go back to the kiddie table and let the adults talk.

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[FUNKMAN]

Go back to the kiddie table and let the adults talk


and don't forget to brush your teeth and wash your face...
:p

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[Bestinshow]

Maybe it's because a rich pity party isn't an easy ticket to sell.


No, lets just seize the assets of the rich. Being rich they are the lowest form of life. And give it to anyone that doesn't work. Because naturally anyone that is poor is of the best moral fiber. The only reason anyone is poor is because the rich people are holding them back. And I know, we will call it welfare because everyone knows how that helps solves all the problems of the world. If only we could pay out more welfare. And than this would be the America we can all be proud of.........

I hate to say it but berg is right. This is a fucking poor pity party. Wake the fuck up.

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[A.J.]

If think you are being oppressed here in America by the evil rich keep in mind you probably still make more money than most people in Third World countries do and would be considered "rich" by their standards.

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A Skidmark production.

[Bestinshow]

it's your breath...
alright, that was uncalled for

a winner should never gloat and put down the opposition, my apologies...




Actually the breath remark I can handle. I can always have a mint. But who ever said you won? I am just tired of doing tag team with you guys and my only relief is Duke.

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[Yerdaddy]

Quote:

Maybe it's because a rich pity party isn't an easy ticket to sell.

No, lets just seize the assets of the rich. Being rich they are the lowest form of life. And give it to anyone that doesn't work. Because naturally anyone that is poor is of the best moral fiber. The only reason anyone is poor is because the rich people are holding them back. And I know, we will call it welfare because everyone knows how that helps solves all the problems of the world. If only we could pay out more welfare. And than this would be the America we can all be proud of.........

I hate to say it but berg is right. This is a fucking poor pity party. Wake the fuck up.
Way to turn to the old dependable straw man argument. None of those things I said or suggested. Nobody says or suggests that crap. I only said there are any numer of reasons people are poor, but you conservatives will never aknowledge that. Then I suggested that being rich is an advantage economically and politically in this country. That shouldn't be a shocking idea. But you conservatives can't hold on to your world view without straw man fallacies, stereotypes, red herrings... (fuck it. go back and read my long-winded post about conservative world view because you just verified it.)


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[FiveB247]

Poor pity party? You marvel at "accomplishments" and "business savy" as if it's righteous. I don't recall people like Rockeller, Carnigie or Morgan being cheered by their workers or the average observers. These types were hated in their times and only cheered by other in the upper class. People like that, the entitled rich, use evil and grotesque methods in order to get to the level they do. That's orginially what this thread was about....taxing the rich. People like that (which you cast as achievers, accomplished or successful), are evil, manipulate snakes which feed and work off the middle and poor classes. You're readily pointing at the "lazyiness" or lack of effort of such non-rich. If you want to do a simple analysis, how many people are actually not working and collect free money compared to the those who are rich? And of those two, who holds more standing, has more avaivable to them in terms of opportunities to make money and gain status? The rich stick to their own kind; policies, entitlements and such all prove so. Their existence in becoming and maintaining such status is based and built on those below them, yet they expect the lessors to suffer in silence.

Someone also mentioned a comparison to those here in the US to those in the 3rd world? Is that even a valid comparison? Is the point not to create fair, stable and balanced economic policies which raise the level of living for all? It is not to just raise your own level...for that person would be on the same path as the one he previously was fighting against.

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[Bestinshow]

But you conservatives can't hold on to your world view without straw man fallacies, stereotypes, red herrings... (fuck it. go back and read my long-winded post about conservative world view because you just verified it.)


You see us conservatives don't like when you liberals stereotype, but of course you have license to because liberals are the only ones that know reality. Actually it was your post that contained the stereotypes and cliches. Telling conservatives how they think. what a bunch of bullshit. You don't like it when the table is turned! Actually, my post was meant as sarcasm, in response to your horseshit, if you didn't already get it. Just proves how closeminded you are if you think that verifies that garbage you posted.

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[Bestinshow]

People like that, the entitled rich, use evil and grotesque methods in order to get to the level they do. That's orginially what this thread was about....taxing the rich. People like that (which you cast as achievers, accomplished or successful), are evil, manipulate snakes which feed and work off the middle and poor classes.


I think that it is grotesque that you sit on your throne and feel free to judge based on propaganda you read on your brainwashing sites, throwing around meaningless, factless, baseless cliches and generalizations. While you are quick to jump at people who bunch the poor into stereotypes you sure have grouped the rich into a nice neat little package. Anyone who has accomplished financial success you catagorize as an "evil, manipulative, snake"? And this is an all inclusive set I guess? Everyone in your eyes who has achieved more than x-dollars is automatically evil. And of course, the opposite is never true. Those who are poor are all victims of the machine. There was a time and place where someone decided that all the rich, all the bankers, all the businessmen with money were the ruination of society. His name was Hitler.

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[HBox]

His name was Hitler.


OK. Argument over.

Rules of Argument #547273:Anyone who has to invoke Hitler or Nazi Germany in an argument automatically loses.

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[FiveB247]

I think that it is grotesque that you sit on your throne and feel free to judge based on propaganda you read on your brainwashing sites, throwing around meaningless, factless, baseless cliches and generalizations. While you are quick to jump at people who bunch the poor into stereotypes you sure have grouped the rich into a nice neat little package. Anyone who has accomplished financial success you catagorize as an "evil, manipulative, snake"? And this is an all inclusive set I guess? Everyone in your eyes who has achieved more than x-dollars is automatically evil. And of course, the opposite is never true. Those who are poor are all victims of the machine.

I don't consider myself any better or worse than anyone else. And it's obvious that there are many that are lazy and just collect instead of attempting to create something for themselves. But it'd be naive to believe that group is anywhere near the size of the opposite in which you defend and which also holds more power and influence on the entire realm. I have no problem with people being rich or successful, but when you do so at the costs or suffering of others...that's where I have a problem.

There was a time and place where someone decided that all the rich, all the bankers, all the businessmen with money were the ruination of society. His name was Hitler.

As for this comment...if you recall your history, Hitler came to power as a result of the awful economic depression and inflation in Germany. He and the nazi fascists faught against communists and rose to power. He didn't just go around and kill the rich, bankers, businessmen....he went after jews. Your mention of him in this thread is laughable and so far out of left field.

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Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[Yerdaddy]

For the sake of wasted energy, this thread has degenerated into a more polarized, less meaningful battle of wills. Bestinshow, you aknowledged some of the complexities of the issue in the last page of the thread, (in the big blob of a post without any paragraph breaks that I avoided yesterday because it made my eyes hurt)[read this in the tone of lighthearted ribbing]. But with the other people's posts we aren't addressing each other alone. So I think I'm now defending the people that, If I was talking to them alone, I would be arguing against them.

So let me take a step back and say there are things that Bestinshow and I agree on:
To blanketly blame poverty and the general difficulty of afording life itself on laziness and lack of ambition is idealistic, but it is just as idealistic as blaming it on the rich is cynical. And both arguments are just as ineffective as they are without basis.
There are those liberals that assume that all wealth is ill-gotten, and demonize the rich to fit their ideological view of the world, (I can think of 4 or Five of them here). That's stupid and wrong. There are also those on here that fit my generalization of conservative ideologues as well, blaming the poor and glorifying the rich. Bestinshow, you don't fit that mold, so unless someone else wants to come in and start throwing around glib generalizations and personal attacks, I say we put this thread out of its misery.

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[Bestinshow]

But it'd be naive to believe that group is anywhere near the size of the opposite in which you defend and which also holds more power and influence on the entire realm.


And where do you get your information? How do you back this to be true? Where do you get off deciding that their are more evil or lazy rich people than poor? And why is it okay to make generalizations against people because they are economically advantaged? As far as power and influence,In my experiences in life, I find this not to be true. You have to be very naive to believe that the special interest groups have little influence and power. But you guys wont be happy until every law and politician is strictly about packing up those mansions and distributing them to the poor.


I have no problem with people being rich or successful,


I find this hard to believe.


but when you do so at the costs or suffering of others...that's where I have a problem.


Only problem is you think this applies to all those rich evil snakes.



As for this comment...if you recall your history, Hitler came to power as a result of the awful economic depression and inflation in Germany. He and the nazi fascists faught against communists and rose to power. He didn't just go around and kill the rich, bankers, businessmen....he went after jews. Your mention of him in this thread is laughable and so far out of left field.


I guess you must have read text books with lots of information crossed out. I guess you thought Hitler was a devout antisemite who just had religious differences. maybe you need to go back and reread what really happened. How did he rally his people behind him to aid in the extermination? Were they devout antisemites too? Or did he tell his people that they were starving because the bankers and lawyers and doctors, who were predominately Jewish held all their money? And if they exterminated the rich Jews, they would free themselves. But I guess you know a different version.

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[Bestinshow]

in the big blob of a post without any paragraph breaks that I avoided yesterday because it made my eyes hurt)[read this in the tone of lighthearted ribbing


I am sorry for that. It was kind of a free flowing rant that went on longer than intended. After I finished it, I realized it looked awful but I didn't have the energy to fix it.



Bestinshow, you don't fit that mold, so unless someone else wants to come in and start throwing around glib generalizations and personal attacks, I say we put this thread out of its misery


Yerdaddy, you are my new best friend. From your mouth to Gods ears.

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[Yerdaddy]

Its not your politics, but I've always loved the term "horseshit," so when I read it I couldn't be mad anymore.

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[Bestinshow]

I've always loved horseshit myself!

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[Bergalad]

I hate to say it but berg is right.
The sooner everyone accepts this as their mantra, the happier they will all be.

[FiveB247]

I guess you must have read text books with lots of information crossed out. I guess you thought Hitler was a devout antisemite who just had religious differences. maybe you need to go back and reread what really happened. How did he rally his people behind him to aid in the extermination? Were they devout antisemites too? Or did he tell his people that they were starving because the bankers and lawyers and doctors, who were predominately Jewish held all their money? And if they exterminated the rich Jews, they would free themselves. But I guess you know a different version.

Actually, If you want to get technical, Hitler blamed Germany's loss in WWI on the jews as well as past problems. It had nothing to do with whether a jew had money and was rich or a jew was poor. So you're oversimplification of equating the anti-semitism to Hitler's rise to power and removal of jews is incorrect. It may have been a factor in convincing the average german into hating jews...but largely had little to do with his actual rise to power. If it were as economically motivated as you state, please explain why other races and people were also exterminated? It doesn't fit your explination nor does your explination encompass the issue (it's more of a mere side issue, but not the main point or factor).

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Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[Bestinshow]

Those things may be so, but that doesn't make my issues inaccurate. He blamed the jews for alot of things and he also was a white supremacist and believed in purity of the race. But why are you dragging in other issues to cloud the argument? During the depression everyone was starving but many jews still had money because they were savy business men.This is a fact, many Jewish business men still had money. This is how he was able to unify his country. He made them the culprit. The rich evil business men stole their money. (Sounds familiar) How else can you get a country to cooperate in a mass extermination? The issues you mentioned were additional factors, but the main motivation to the German people was they were starving.

The following day, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were published in the local anti-Semitic newspaper. The false, but alarming accusations reinforced Hitler's anti-Semitism. Soon after, treatment of the Jews was a major theme of Hitler's orations, and the increasing scapegoating of the Jews for inflation, political instability, unemployment, and the humiliation in the war, found a willing audience. Jews were tied to "internationalism" by Hitler. The name of the party was changed to the National Socialist German Worker's party, and the red flag with the swastika was adopted as the party symbol. A local newspaper which appealed to anti-Semites was on the verge of bankruptcy, and Hitler raised funds to purchase it for the party.


That was a quote from www.remember.org/guide/facts.root.hitler.html

Just change Jew with rich white people and it becomes one of your arguments.
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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 7-10-03 @ 11:15 AM

[HBox]

Just change Jew with rich white people and it becomes one of your arguments


Look, you have valid points. But quit with this analogy. It doesn't work and you are looking desperate.

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[Bestinshow]

Look, you have valid points. But quit with this analogy. It doesn't work and you are looking desperate.


Valid points? Its balls on accurate. Not with everyone but Five's diatribes are reminiscent of a Nazi witch hunt labeling a class as evil snakes and the main cause of all those things mentioned above.(Unemployment, political unrest, etc.)
Desperate, I don't think so. I would like to end the subject but he insists on arguing its validity.

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[FiveB247]

Your comment towards me is plain absurd. But Here...let me play along with your asinine joke of a statement.

http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.php/38c0f559/hitler.jpg

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Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 7-10-03 @ 12:01 PM

[Bestinshow]

I was kind of hoping your mustache was grown in by now.

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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 7-10-03 @ 12:04 PM

[FiveB247]

First off.... I'm a Nazi?? You're insane.

Secondly, I noticed you posted something from Remember.org? Do the terms "never again" or "remember" only apply jews? So who exactly is hypocritical in such thinking or throwing around such terms? If you ask a person like yourself, the answer would be no...which shows exactly the lack of perception in the actions perpetrated to begin with. People like yourself care to ignore other such atrocities, but hold yours as a badge to "never forget"....for your own kind only. That is the misleading part of your argument and vantage point.

You also mentioned at some point in this thread that you find it hard to believe that I don't have a problem with anyone with money. The truth is I don't have any issue with someone having money, it's how they get it. If it's legitimate, good for them. If it costs others problems or is gained by lackluster business methods or similar, I have a problem with it. It's nothing more than that.

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[Bestinshow]

First off.... I'm a Nazi?? You're insane.


First of all don't get your panties in a bunch. The moustache line was supposed to be a joke. I never called you a Nazi. I never said you condoned exterminating anyone. I said your political philosophies are similar to those used as propaganda by a fascist regime. And are still just as much propaganda without the murderous intent. I never said you should be hunted down.I am saying you are paranoid and your latest post proves that more.



Secondly, I noticed you posted something from Remember.org? Do the terms "never again" or "remember" only apply jews? So who exactly is hypocritical in such thinking or throwing around such terms? If you ask a person like yourself, the answer would be no...which shows exactly the lack of perception in the actions perpetrated to begin with. People like yourself care to ignore other such atrocities, but hold yours as a badge to "never forget"....for your own kind only. That is the misleading part of your argument and vantage point.


What the fuck are you talking about? What bullshit are these organizations filling your head with? What attrocities do I condone? And how dare you tell me what I believe? You don't know me from adam. Because I don't back your paranoid delusions doesn't make me a hypocrit. who are you to decide that your interpretations are law? Thats right never forget. And if more people believed what you were saying, the same shit would happen again.


People like yourself care to ignore other such atrocities, but hold yours as a badge to "never forget"....for your own kind only


People like myself? Who the hell are you to judge me? And my kind only? Don't forget, you are my kind. Just because you are self hating doesn't let you off the hook.


The truth is I don't have any issue with someone having money, it's how they get it. If it's legitimate, good for them. If it costs others problems or is gained by lackluster business methods or similar, I have a problem with it. It's nothing more than that.


Yeah right!


And now that this thread has turned ugly and we called each names over political bullshit, lets apologize to each other and go back to being friends. Because even if you were a Nazi, you'd be my favorite Nazi.

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[FUNKMAN]

do i need to jump back in and WIN this argument AGAIN!!!!!

my fingers are itchin...

<img src="http://www.markfarner.com/2001tour/ribfest8_small.jpg">

am i in my cabin dreaming, or are you really scheming

[Bestinshow]

do i need to jump back in and WIN this argument AGAIN!!!!!


You didn't win jack, but if it makes you happy, we'll give you a stuffed animal, and send you are your way.

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[Bestinshow]

These threads get ugly but they certainly draw hits from the board. About 1100 now. We should be charging admission.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

<marquee>98% I used to buy 2% but it tastes like water<marquee>

[FUNKMAN]

we'll give you a stuffed animal


yeah I got your stuffed animal right here pal...
;p

it's useless to go on, please take your defeat like a man.... i won't tell too many people...

<img src="http://www.markfarner.com/2001tour/ribfest8_small.jpg">

am i in my cabin dreaming, or are you really scheming

[Bestinshow]

it's useless to go on, please take your defeat like a man.... i won't tell too many people...


Okay....Move along son. I have connections with the storm troopers. ;p If you don't go I am going to have you escorted.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

<marquee>98% I used to buy 2% but it tastes like water<marquee>

[FUNKMAN]

i just checked your Profile and it said "disabled"...

I had no idea, if i did know i wouldn't have made you look so bad...

can I buy you an ice cream or something?

:)

<img src="http://www.markfarner.com/2001tour/ribfest8_small.jpg">

am i in my cabin dreaming, or are you really scheming

[Bestinshow]

I'd rather go to the zoo. Retards love animals.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>
<marquee>Kiss a Doberman Today<marquee>



<marquee>98% I used to buy 2% but it tastes like water<marquee>

[Se7en]

The truth is I don't have any issue with someone having money,

Uh oh, you're going to lose support amongst the proletariat if they hear you talking like this.

<img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/captainamerica.jpg" width="300" height="100">
<br>
<br>
Is the Captain a member of the proud <b>2%</b>?

[high fly]

Shall we let the President have the last word on this topic? Speaking of his economic plan, he was quoted in the March 15th, 2000 issue of the New York Times as saying:

"I'm doing what I think what's wrong."

(this is so much fun!)



" and they ask me why I drink"

[Se7en]

I will have the last word.

Because I killed this thread 2 solid weeks ago until YOU had to bring it back to life.

<img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/captainamerica.jpg" width="300" height="100">
<br>
<br>
Is the Captain a member of the proud <b>2%</b>?

[high fly]

[snicker]

" and they ask me why I drink"

[LiquidCourage]

How about we just make massive cuts in spending and taxing and avoid this problem altogether?

[CaptClown]

How about we just make massive cuts in spending and taxing and avoid this problem altogether?
Because pork is king and the more you can bring to your district, the greater your chances of re-election.

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army

http://www.nudeafrica.com/discus/messages/45722/3068438.gif

[FUNKMAN]

Because pork is king



MOE knew that...

<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/closer100.gif">

sig by ADF...

[high fly]

How about we make massive cuts in spending and taxing and avoid this problem altogether

Ain't gonna happen, and not just because of the pork.
OMB said 2 weeks ago that the 2003 deficit would be 455 billion and the 2004 deficit would be 475 billion.
This is money the government is borrowing in order to operate, and those loans must be paid off, preferably before the interest balloons them to unmanageable proportions.
I don't think there's a single politician in or out of Congress that can come up with 475 billion in spending cuts.
Nope, it's gonna take mostly tax increases, and since the rich pay less, more of the burden of the upcoming tax increase will fall on the rest of us.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Bergalad]

and since the rich pay less
Less than who? What the hell are you babbling about? Are you completely drunk right now?

[CaptClown]

MOE knew that...

Moe is wise beyond his years.

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army

http://www.nudeafrica.com/discus/messages/45722/3068438.gif

[high fly]

Less than who?

Less than themselves before they got their tax cuts.
Since the top 2% (who have 40% of the money)went from paying 40% of the taxes to paying 36% of the taxes, then their share of the upcoming tax increase is less than what it would be had there been no tax cuts.

Then again, had there been no tax cuts, the deficit would not be as large, and the upcoming tax increases not so large.

BERGALAD, you can't keep on borrowing forever, especially when the interest on what you borrow increases faster than the increase in your income.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Bergalad]

Since the top 2% (who have 40% of the money)went from paying 40% of the taxes to paying 36% of the taxes
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You are my favorite High Fi!

[high fly]

Thanks, BURQACLAD!

" and they ask me why I drink"