It's the end of the world

[TooCute]

I fell asleep during Days of Our Lives and I wake up to hear about bombings in Baghdad AND Jerusalem?

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[Snoogans]

holy fuckin shit really, maybe the fundamentalists are fighting over who takes credit for our natural disasters and will kill them selves

http://wnewsgirl.homestead.com/files/Snoogans.jpg
Silent Bob you one rude motherfucker, she like to go down on you, suck you. line up 2 other guys and make like a circus seal


eww you fuckin faggots, i hate guys, i LOOOOVE WOMEN!

[Aggie]

Here's the link for the one in Baghdad.
BAGHDAD, Iraq, Aug 19 - A truck bomb exploded in front of the hotel housing the U.N. headquarters in the Iraqi capital on Tuesday, killing at least 20 people and wounding about 100, U.S. officials said. Among the victims was the chief U.N. official in Iraq, who died despite frantic efforts to rescue him from the rubble. (http://www.msnbc.com/news/870749.asp?cp1=1)


There's tons of people getting killed in Afghanistan and now possibly another sniper in West Virginia.

I don't think we're far from it.

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This message was edited by Aggie on 8-19-03 @ 2:49 PM

[Snoogans]

i hate to say this, cause i know 9/11 was planned before, but i think alot of this hostility toward us has to do with bush. obviously, the middle east has always hated us for the most part, but it didnt really get this bad until Bush got in. Him starting a war there obviously didnt help, but anyone with me in thinkin it couldnt partly be motivated for a hate for his dad, and since he is now our president they are just opening up on us?
EDIT: Aggie, i heard on AM that they just said speculation is the DC shootings the other day were drug related. Its a sad day when drug related shootings are a relief

http://wnewsgirl.homestead.com/files/Snoogans.jpg
Silent Bob you one rude motherfucker, she like to go down on you, suck you. line up 2 other guys and make like a circus seal


eww you fuckin faggots, i hate guys, i LOOOOVE WOMEN!

This message was edited by Snoogans on 8-19-03 @ 3:04 PM

[IrishAlkey]

This will never end.

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[Yerdaddy]

I'm very sad to hear of the death of the chief UN delegate Sergio Vieira de Mello. I followed his work in East Timor after its independence in 1999 and found him to be a tireless worker and a decent, honest man who worked for the best interests of the people of East Timor. He was not afraid to criticize his UN bosses and other national leaders and thoroughly cleaned house in the UN administration of East Timor when it needed to be done. We need more people like him in international politics and now we have one less.

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[Heavy]

This is stupid. How is this building felt open to something like this?

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[Bergalad]

obviously, the middle east has always hated us for the most part, but it didnt really get this bad until Bush got in.
This isn't a true statement, but thanks for asking.

[bunnyluvsthem]

I'm very sad to hear of the death of the chief UN delegate Sergio Vieira de Mello. I followed his work ...
I'm very sad to hear of the death of all the innocent people yet another bus in Israel. I'm very sad to hear of the deaths of little children and babies, who were killed before they had a chance to live their lives to a ripe old age. I'm very sad to hear of the injuries to all those other people on the bus - and I'm very sad that those injuries are things like missing limbs, missing eyes, paralysis, burns requiring skin grafts, and the like.

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[Yerdaddy]

I regret the deaths and injuries in both Baghdad and Israel, but what's that got to do with my post?

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[ChickenHawk]

Bombs exploding in Baghdad and Jerusalem?!?! No waaaay... Those are usually such peaceful regions of the world...

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[mdr55]

The UN was directly attacked. So how will they respond now? Or did all the people that died, die for nothing. Stop talking and start acting!

The Ron and Fez show transcends all boundaries!

STOP! the Turf Wars.

[samnyc]

To hell with sending troops into Monrovia. When the hell is Bush going to wake up and stand by Israel? When is Israel going to put those big bully Palestinians in their place? World government have put pressure on Israel while innocent Israelis have been killed for the past 3 years.

[Snoogans]

obviously, the middle east has always hated us for the most part, but it didnt really get this bad until Bush got in.


This isn't a true statement, but thanks for asking.

thats funny, then who was president when all this terror shit came about?

http://wnewsgirl.homestead.com/files/Snoogans.jpg
Silent Bob you one rude motherfucker, she like to go down on you, suck you. line up 2 other guys and make like a circus seal


eww you fuckin faggots, i hate guys, i LOOOOVE WOMEN!

[Heavy]

Snoogans I think the answer is Washington.

and.....





innocent Israelis have been killed for the past 3 years.


huh!? :confuse:

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[Snoogans]

oh johnee no doubt, they have always hated. but bush sr was a big prob to them and it seems they are coming at us alot harder since his son has taken over. i cant help but feel some relation exists

http://wnewsgirl.homestead.com/files/Snoogans.jpg
Silent Bob you one rude motherfucker, she like to go down on you, suck you. line up 2 other guys and make like a circus seal


eww you fuckin faggots, i hate guys, i LOOOOVE WOMEN!

[Yerdaddy]

The UN was directly attacked. So how will they respond now? Or did all the people that died, die for nothing. Stop talking and start acting!
The UN is not a country or a government but a system of international laws. Therefore it is the responsibility of the Security Council member nations to decide how to respond to this. Now given that security in Iraq is now the responsibility of the United States, a permanent member of the Security Council, it is essentially the US's responsibility to deal with the investigation and response to the attack, and to provide security for the UN mission to Iraq.

innocent Israelis have been killed for the past 3 years.

huh!?
That's true, he just neglects the fact that innocent Palestinians have been killed as well.

I've never seen any evidence that terrorists had any more hatred towards the Bushes than any other American president. It's the secular nature of our society and our foreign policy decisions that they hate. Bush's decision to go into Iraq was probably good news to most of these clowns because as Brent Scowcroft said before the war, it will be a recruiting poster for al-quaeda.

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[Bergalad]

bush sr was a big prob to them
And he did what to Islamic Extremists?
it seems they are coming at us alot harder since his son has taken over
What does this mean? "We" have only been attacked a couple of times, and the planning for incidents like September 11th began during the Clinton Presidency (no I am not blaming him, just giving a timeframe), so how does this tie into either of the Bush's? The attacks in Israel have been occuring for years, and cannot be attributed to any one President. Certainly the hatred of the Palestinians is not fairly placed on the current President since he has done more to establish a Palestinian State than any other President in history.

[FUNKMAN]

TooCute,

i felt the same way... i worked from 4pm to 8am due to the latest WORM and Tue afternoon i awoke and turned on CNN... it gave me a similar feeling like the time i worked through the night and awoke in the early afternoon to the radio announcing the WTC's had been taken down... just seems to be too much hate in the world at times...


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Sig by ADF

[Snoogans]

"We" have only been attacked a couple of times, and the planning for incidents like September 11th began during the Clinton Presidency (no I am not blaming him, just giving a timeframe)

i had said that if you read, but i mean now the countries all tryin to get us. i dont know if maybe we are just more aware now, but it seems a whole lot more anti american shit is happenning now

http://wnewsgirl.homestead.com/files/Snoogans.jpg
Silent Bob you one rude motherfucker, she like to go down on you, suck you. line up 2 other guys and make like a circus seal


eww you fuckin faggots, i hate guys, i LOOOOVE WOMEN!

[bunnyluvsthem]

I regret the deaths and injuries in both Baghdad and Israel, but what's that got to do with my post?

That's true, he just neglects the fact that innocent Palestinians have been killed as well.

Let's see if you will back up your homicidal statements with more vitriol, or back off.

You "regret" the deaths and injuries in "both Baghdad" and Israel? Can you compare the two so easily?

So many "innocent" "Palestinians" have been killed that you need to equate them to the Israeli men, women, children, and babies that have been slaughtered - innocent people?

What planet do you live on, Boy, "planet Hitler"?

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[Yerdaddy]

I'm going through this horse shit again. At least the last guy had a brain. Either read the sections relating to "extrajudicial executions" in this ( <a href="http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2002/18278.htm#ot" target="_blank">Country Reports on Human Rights Practices</a> ) or shut the fuck up and get out of my face.

In a nutshell, Israel's hardline tactics in Palestine and the occupied territories results in three times the number of Palestinian casualties as Palestinians cause Israelis every year. BOTH sides are guilty of killing innocents.

Aside from that I'm not having this conversation with you. You can dig up the years worth of Middle East threads if you want my opinions.

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[bunnyluvsthem]

No discussion with you. You are obviously a jew-hater, plain and simple, and a "Palestinian" sympathizer to boot. Oh, pardon me, make that "jack-boot". You are the reason for the Holocaust and the homicide bombings, you sob. Tell me all about it.

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[Yerdaddy]

Listen Bunnyluvscock, you're obviously retarded and want to argue that Israel can do no wrong and all Palestinians are terrorists. I've had that discussion already and I'm not having it again. So either read the old threads or fuck off. You obviously came into this thread with a grudge brought over from your own god-awful threads about electricity and were looking for a fight. Now you think you have it. You don't. You have some sort of fetal-alcohol syndrome, but you don't have a fight.

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[Snoogans]

You don't. You have some sort of fetal-alcohol syndrome, but you don't have a fight.

haha

http://wnewsgirl.homestead.com/files/Snoogans.jpg
Silent Bob you one rude motherfucker, she like to go down on you, suck you. line up 2 other guys and make like a circus seal


eww you fuckin faggots, i hate guys, i LOOOOVE WOMEN!

[Reephdweller]

i hate to say this, cause i know 9/11 was planned before, but i think alot of this hostility toward us has to do with bush. obviously, the middle east has always hated us for the most part, but it didnt really get this bad until Bush got in.


I think this is partially right, in that there are certain Arab elements that hate Bush and his dad. But you also have to remember that the first Word Trade Center attack occured during the Clinton presidency, there were numerous terrorist attacks on U.S. citizens in foreign places by terrorists during Clinton.

So while I don't doubt that the Bush's have those who hate them, I think there's also a general element there that just plain hates the U.S.A.

Every president will always have some form of foreign policy that others despise him or her for. GW Bush will most likely get the most flack from the extremists though because he appears to be taking the threats these terrorists bring and taking them head on. I don't say that as a fan of his, but just from observation.

Also I believe there is evidence that has suggested that 9/11 was planned years before it happened, during the Clinton administration, so it's not necessarily always based on who is currently in the Oval Office. I think there is a general hatred of the U.S. and regardless of the commander in chief there will be someone who wants to cause mayhem and destruction.

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[DarkHippie]

Let's remember that Islamic fundamentalism got its start in the aftermath of WWI, after the fall of the Ottoman empire and the western scramble for arab land after that. There is nearly 100 years of resentment built up there, and Israel is a very obvious symbol to the arabs of that.

What's ironic is before the 20th century, arabs were much more tolerant to Jews than christians were, seeing them as "brothers." They let them practice Judaism and did not persecute. Its only in the modern age did things become violent.

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[bunnyluvsthem]

Listen Bunny, you're obviously retarded and want to argue that Israel can do no wrong and all Palestinians are terrorists. I've had that discussion already and I'm not having it again. So either read the old threads or ef off. You obviously came into this thread with a grudge brought over from your own god-awful threads about electricity and were looking for a fight. Now you think you have it. You don't. You have some sort of fetal-alcohol syndrome, but you don't have a fight.

1. I have never seen your purported discussions you have had already in any "old threads", it is silly to expect someone to have an encyclopedic knowledge of your hatred of innocent jews who you obviously condone the killing of.

2. No grudges here, pal. This is a seperate discussion from electricity, there is no connection between your inability to fully comprehend the electric problem with your proudly Nazi-esque opinions on how to deal with jews. But of course, I knew you would try to find a subterfuge way of slithering out of your absurd statements, camoflauging your raw hatred with a veil of disjointed "connections" and other deflective pretense.

3. You are now on
FULL IGNORE MODE
too bad, go talk to Allah, maybe you will get your wish and help your cause by strapping a vest on, but I hope that the Mossad pre-empts your plans.

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This message was edited by bunnyluvsthem on 8-20-03 @ 9:19 AM

[bunnyluvsthem]

Let's remember that Islamic fundamentalism got its start in the aftermath of WWI, after the fall of the Ottoman empire and the western scramble for arab land after that. There is nearly 100 years of resentment built up there, and Israel is a very obvious symbol to the arabs of that.

What's ironic is before the 20th century, arabs were much more tolerant to Jews than christians were, seeing them as "brothers." They let them practice Judaism and did not persecute. Its only in the modern age did things become violent.

Hip - coming from you, who I don't know, this either sounds like you don't know what you're talking about, or else you are trying to slip everyone here some rewritten history to make it seem as if it is 1938 all over again advocating some sort of Final Solution.

So, for this one, let's give you the 100% benefit of the doubt and say you have a misguided and error-filled concept of historical facts.

To say that Arabs have built-up resentment makes it seem as if you are rewriting history. To say that there was no persecution of Arabs against Jews until the "modern age" (whatever that terminology of yours is supposed to connote) and that Arabs let their "brothers" "practice Judaism" is absurd, and again seems as if you are rewriting history. To say that it only became "violent" (I guess this euphamism is supposed to mean Arabs killing innocent Men, Women, Children, and Babies, said in such a way to make it as trite as possible) in the "modern age" again makes it seem as if you are rewriting history.

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Shut out, but not shut Up.
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[TooCute]

So either read the old threads or ef off.

Am I the only one that noticed that bunny edited "fuck off" to read "ef off"?


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[Teenweek]

Isn't the end of the world when the second coming of christ happens.

http://www.drudgereport.com/bush.jpg

http://publish.hometown.aol.com/egudsze246/images/teenweeksig1.jpg

This message was edited by Teenweek on 8-20-03 @ 11:52 AM

[bunnyluvsthem]

So either read the old threads or ef off.

Am I the only one that noticed that bunny edited "ef off" to read "ef off"?

You will find that I do this in every instance that there are objectionable words tossed into a sentence that I am quoting to respond to. I need not repeat the offense by duplicating it. After all, this is a family show.

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Shut out, but not shut Up.
<marquee> Both of them are good! I love them! I Love them! Both of them! Both of them are good! BOTH of them! Both Ron, and Fez! Oh, they are good! mmmmm! Juicy! They are good! Creamy! Creamy! I love them! Both of them! Ron and Fez! Ron and Fez! Oooooo! They are GOOD! They are so good! </marquee>

[Heavy]

Am I the only one that noticed that bunny edited "fuck off" to read "ef off"?

I would have to think the answers is yes, cause I think what we're all doing is skipping over her posts and ignoring her. I recommend it

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[bunnyluvsthem]

I am so shivering from that one, John. This ignoring stuff is such a grand idea - just to think, right now, there are countless people out there skipping right over this very message, not reading it, just knowing that there is something I wrote and yet they are forcibly skipping it over. Not just checking it out and not replying, but actually not reading it. Because you said so! Or, because someone else convinced them that, no, you will ususally not find anything intriguing, interesting, or informative from reading through any of Bunny's thoughts comments and ideas.

No, you are better off just to squeeze your eyes tightly closed as you scroll down just enough to read the very next message, but not too little lest your eyes get Drawn In and ever so slightly glance at anything that Bunny said, god forbid, he is just so so "shocking" it is really just verboten to read him, you need to protect yourself from even reading any word of his.

Good job, John. Nice guy that you are. Can I be you?

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Shut out, but not shut Up.
<marquee> Both of them are good! I love them! I Love them! Both of them! Both of them are good! BOTH of them! Both Ron, and Fez! Oh, they are good! mmmmm! Juicy! They are good! Creamy! Creamy! I love them! Both of them! Ron and Fez! Ron and Fez! Oooooo! They are GOOD! They are so good! </marquee>

[HBox]

http://www.nefsc.noaa.gov/faq/images/fishing.jpg

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[ChickenHawk]

Hey, what the F! Bunny stole my patented FULL IGNORE MODE! You bastard!

<IMG SRC="http://homepage.mac.com/papahawk/.Pictures/chickenhawkcracker.jpg">

[Katylina]

I would have to think the answers is yes, cause I think what we're all doing is skipping over her posts and ignoring her. I recommend it


Bunny is a "her"? I always thought that "she" was a "he" when I read the posts.

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[StupidGirlllll]

Yea Bunny is a he....he is the 1 who calls the show & goes on for like 5 minutes about R&F love

http://members.aol.com/thetoddsterlsp/images/stupidgirlllll4.gif
Thank U Toddy Bear

[StupidGirlllll]

Yea Bunny is a he....he is the 1 who calls the show & goes on for like 5 minutes about R&F love

http://members.aol.com/thetoddsterlsp/images/stupidgirlllll4.gif
Thank U Toddy Bear

[Heavy]

when I read the posts.

theres your first mistake

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[high fly]

Wasn't the Bunny Man a kid toucher in P.G. County?

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Snoogans]

No grudges here, pal. This is a seperate discussion from electricity, there is no connection between your inability to fully comprehend the electric problem with your proudly Nazi-esque opinions on how to deal with jews

one question, how did yerdaddy become a nazi because some fundamentalist group suicide bombed in isreal, while another did in bahgdad. i dont ever remember him sayin did you hear about the dead isralies, woo hoo.

sometimes the arguements from your posts are funny, but to kick around a term like nazi and jew hater, especially with no premise isnt right. it only makes me lose the small tolerance level for you and im sure lose whatever respect you may have had from the others on this board.

and incase you dont know how to read bunny, its not really a jewish thing here. the bahgdad bombing was a UN/anti american thing and the isralies and palistinians have been fighting forever.

i dont see you calling me a dirty mic hater cause im irish and they are fighting with northern ireland. its called a war

http://wnewsgirl.homestead.com/files/Snoogans.jpg
Silent Bob you one rude motherfucker, she like to go down on you, suck you. line up 2 other guys and make like a circus seal


eww you fuckin faggots, i hate guys, i LOOOOVE WOMEN!

[PanterA]

Isn't the end of the world when the second coming of christ happens.

http://www.drudgereport.com/bush.jpghttp://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1855000/images/_1855897_bush150.jpg

we're in trouble......

damn it, I just looked at the url of the jesus pic, and it actually is GW's face on the body of christ. I thought I was cool for a second. :(


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This message was edited by PanterA on 8-20-03 @ 3:49 PM

[-=|SpearheaD|=-]

christ happens

[-=|SpearheaD|=-]

get it?

[Snoogans]

dont worry pants, i thought you had the greatest joke ever for 5 min and then was like hey wait, they are both bush

http://wnewsgirl.homestead.com/files/Snoogans.jpg
Silent Bob you one rude motherfucker, she like to go down on you, suck you. line up 2 other guys and make like a circus seal


eww you fuckin faggots, i hate guys, i LOOOOVE WOMEN!

[DarkHippie]

Actually, Bunny, its not revisionist history, its real history. I suggest you look it up.

So am I an anti-semite too? My rabbi would love to hear that.

and by the way: GE KAKEN AYA FAM YAM, MUTHA FUCKA!!!!

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[Snoogans]

seriously bunny. i always read what you say and try to take good points from it, but this i cant. how can you call someone a jew hater because a bomb went off in a jewish country, and the bomb laid by a country that country was at war with.
i didnt see you callin us muslum haters when we bombed iraq, and hippie and yerdaddy didnt even do anything. they commented on it.
if you have ideas, put them here. But dont tell people what they are or tell them what they should think and that they are wrong, because thats what angers people. when i say your wrong you get all pissed.
maybe for once read what they fuckin say and you'll see that some others, especially when its like a thousand against you, are right. your not always right, in fact i have yet to see an overall point you were right on.

http://wnewsgirl.homestead.com/files/Snoogans.jpg
Silent Bob you one rude motherfucker, she like to go down on you, suck you. line up 2 other guys and make like a circus seal


eww you fuckin faggots, i hate guys, i LOOOOVE WOMEN!

[silera]

It's like deja vu all over again.



<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif
<font size="3" color="red">AND WHAT?</font></center><font color="FBF2F7">

[Bergalad]

That's true, he just neglects the fact that innocent Palestinians have been killed as well.

Many Palestinian children have been killed, true, almost every time in response to Israeli reprisals for Palestinian-supported bombings. I would prefer no one to be killed, but just as there was no US outcry against the deaths of Taliban children from our response to Afghanistan, the same should be true when we look at Israel.

Here's what Hamas and Islamic Jihad had to say in response to the controlled strike Israel made on a Hamas leader:
The assassination of Abu Shanab...means that the Zionist enemy has assassinated the truce and the Hamas movement holds the Zionist enemy fully responsible for the consequences of its crime
They completely neglect the fact that just the day before they murdered 20 people (including 3 Americans I believe), yet Hamas says Israel broke the truce. Israel offers to turn over 4 cities to Palestinian control a few weeks ago and this is how they are repaid.

The Palestinian Authority once again "condemns" the terrorist bombing, pledging to bring those responsible to justice. Of course on the same day as the bomb went off Abbas was meeting with Hamas and Islamic Jihad, so obviously he has zero ability to reign them in.

I applaud Israel's response to these terrorists. Those who want to pity the Palestinian people in all this are completely misguided. Without the tacit support of the Palestinian people these terror groups would cease to exist. This has been seen before, when even mighty terrorist groups like the Tupamoros disappeared when popular support faded. Until the Palestinians (and other arab supporters) end their support for these groups, they are and will continue to be supporters of terrorism. Continually bemoaning the "poor Palestinians" is, in my opinion, feeling sorry for terrorist sympathizers. The Palestinians have the power to end all of this, yet they refuse to. No matter what other nation is funding Hamas or Islamic Jihad, without the Palestinians those groups would end.

It is unacceptable that we as Americans just sit here and do noting about terrorists. The focus of Hamas and their peers are on Israel for now, but don't be fooled to think they don't hate the United States almost as much. By not helping Israel end the threat of these groups now, we are endangering our own future.

It's not the end of the world yet, but if we continue to become distracted and not focus on the main threats to the United States we imperil ourselves more each passing day.

This message was edited by Bergalad on 8-21-03 @ 9:33 AM

[FUNKMAN]

you would tend to believe that if the "homicide bombings" stopped, Israel would stop retaliating and innocent Palestinian children would not be killed. It's at a point where "who started it" does not matter, they both have to "stop it"... i don't believe i see Israel ever taking aggressive action unless it is in response to a "homicide bombing"

the MAIN problem is the Palestinian Authorities have NO control over the terrorist groups that live within their communities. these terrorists will surely kill the Palestinian leaders if they were to make full agreements with Israel and try to dismantle the terrorists organizations...

so in other words, this shit is gonna be going on for a long time....

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[high fly]

I applaud Israel's rersponse to these terrorists

I'm with you on this one, BERGALAD.

The MAIN problem is that two groups want to govern the same piece of land and neither one will budge.
For 29 years now it has been Palestinian strategy to say or do anything to get a foothold in the West Bank and/or Gaza from which to attack Israel with the final goal of eliminating Israel.
They have not deviated nor renounced this strategy since they declared it.
I come down on the Israeli side because A) they are a democracy, B)they are an ally, and C) because the Palestinians have been purposefully slaughtering civilians for 40 years.
The Palestinians have not proven they can be a good neighbor or shown a capability of running something as complex as a nation.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

By not helping Israel end the threat of these groups now, we are endangering our own future.

How remarkably similar to the thinking that pushed the Iraq invasion.

Again, how is a threat squared directly at Israel somehow magically made a threat to US? Hamas and the other radical Palestinian sects are NOT a direct danger to America. OUR terrorists ARE of a completely different cut, whether people want to finally accept that or not. They're NOT all the same, and more of us are only going to be killed unless that is realized and we don't stop swallowing this "attacking any Arab group/country will make us safe" dog and pony show.

This horeshit notion of "all terrorism is a danger to America" is just that...horseshit.

Quite frankly, I don't give a damn about the Israelis in this regard. Or the Iraqi people. Supposedly we were embarking on a huge "war on terror" to make AMERICA safe after 9/11. And while we have waged this battle in many regards, the main focus in the past year has been to topple a government that was pretty much only a difect threat to its neighbors and Israel. Now we're supposed to feel that guys blowing up buses and malls in Israel are a threat to Americans? A + B does NOT = 3.

It's a ridiculous dose of spin on these issues. Yes, there's little to no hope for a legitimate peace being established. Yes, Israel needs to take a hardline stance. Yes, I feel they either need to cut themselves off from the Arab world totally or be unleashed on whoever wants to take them on. These things are all very much true. And unfortunate. But that's how the world is. But to somehow lump America in with that and make it a "fight we must fight to keep us safe" is absolute nonsense. If anything, getting into the trenches with Israel WOULD actually encourage more direct attacks on America, probably from groups and individuals who wouldn't have attempted it before. Our foreign policy these days should focus on two key points above all else...AVOIDING and STOPPING terrorism directed at AMERICA. Boom. Done. That's it. Everything else is secondary.

Why should we stick our neck out for Israel? Honestly? And dont give me this "anti-Jew" schtick either. It's a political issue like any other. We can say whatever we want about ANY other country, but if you question or criticize Israel you're automatically "anti-Jew". Uhm, OK. See the equation above. Israel offers us nothing except UN votes. We have other nations that will allow us use for our millitary forces. Our support of them only encourages more resentment of our country from groups that actually WILL attack us and more attacks on Israel itself from terrorist groups. Us pulling back would, what, encorage LEGITIMATE millitary strikes against Israel? Yeah, we know how they handle those. Let 'em smack everyone down. They know how to handle themselves. All we're doing now is making them fight blindfolded with one arm tied behind their back. Cut 'em loose and sort everything once the dust settles.

What are we obligated to do here? I for one do NOT buy into the whole "world's policeman" bit. Why is it the "hardliners" suddenly happily show off their bleeding hearts in situations like this? "Oh, what about the Iraqi people? They need to be FREED! What about those poor Israelis? We should pour in as many American money and lives as possible!"

You can't have it both ways. The safest course for America is LESS involvement, not MORE. Set 'em loose and let God/Allah/WHATEVER sort 'em out.

I see only two countries here who offer us NOTHING and only end up killing children and innocents and this is uspposed to involve us WHY? And I'M usually called a "bleeding heart liberal" by people who readily push for our involvement in a struggle like this? Right. Why do I have to pick a side here? Because one side has malls and capitalism and listens to the same music? Please. This isn't our fight. I don't have to pick a side, and I won't, and we shouldn't have to.

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[high fly]

For the most part, our involvement there has been to restrain Israel from fighting back.
I say let them and the Palestinians just go ahead and declare war and fight it out.

This "peace process" is bullshit.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[canofsoup15]

What are we obligated to do here? I for one do NOT buy into the whole "world's policeman" bit.


That is the statement of the thread. Right there. Why is it OUR problem? Why do we have to sort all the shit of the world out alone, and very few of the situations we put ourselves in are lose -mlose situations. This is one of them, what could we possibly do that would make everyone happy, send in troops? Let innocent americans die because two other countries in a seperate part of the world aren;t getting along? What other choices do we have, we've built roadmaps, met with both leaders numerous times, tried policing the place, nothing seems to work. The big wall sounds like a good idea but I don't think it is finished yet. It's all just history repeating.

No, this is not the end of the world. These two countries have been hating each other for the past 50 years, since WWII when Great Britain decided to give the land to both groups. Only now do we acknowledge the fact that it is happening because we have reporters over there constantly now that the whole world has gone on "Terrorist Mode". And people have hated America since America was founded, but we realize it now, again, because of all the 24/7 news coverage of the middle east and such.

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Stuck in believe there is a lie, Promises promise an eye for an eye.
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[high fly]

Part of it is the allure of the Nobel Peace Prize

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

Hey, y'know Diddy ONLY wants to party with the peeps down wit' Nobel.

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[Bergalad]

The safest course for America is LESS involvement, not MORE. Set 'em loose and let God/Allah/WHATEVER sort 'em out.
I am not sure which you should pull your head out of first, the sand or your ass. Take your pick.

[Yerdaddy]

Bergalad tells half the story. The US government tells the whole story. I'm only touching this thread now because it's disingenuous to base opinions on half-truths. I hate glitches in the matrix.

<a href="http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/nea/8262.htm" target="_blank"> US State Dept. 2001 Human Rights Report on Israel and the Occupied Territories</a>

On the Palestinian Authority, (PA), Palestinian civilians, and terrorist groups:

The PA's overall human rights record continued to be poor; its performance improved in a few areas, but worsened in several others during the year. Unlike in the previous year, there were no documented instances of on-duty Palestinian security forces killing Israeli security force members in the occupied territories during the year. Some off-duty members of Palestinian security services and Fatah faction reportedly participated with civilians and militant groups in violent attacks against Israeli settlers, other civilians, and soldiers. At year's end, there was no conclusive evidence that the most senior PLO or PA leadership gave prior approval for these acts. On a number of occasions, Arafat called on Palestinians not to fire from Area A and ordered a complete cease-fire. However, Arafat did not take sufficient sustained action to end the violence. PA security forces arrested some of those implicated in the violence, but many quickly were released or not kept under credible conditions of arrest.

Palestinian civilians were responsible for the deaths of the 87 Israelis killed in the occupied territories. Palestinian-instigated violence in the initial months of the Intifada was characterized by violent demonstrations; shootings; incidents in which Palestinians usually threw stones and Molotov cocktails at IDF checkpoints; random shootings at Israeli settlements and IDF positions; and limited armed attacks on Israeli settlers, soldiers, and civilians. During the year, violence directed at Israeli civilians and settlers became more lethal as Palestinians targeted Israelis in drive-by shootings and ambushes, suicide and other bombings, mortar attacks, and armed attacks on settlements and military bases. Palestinians acting individually, or in unorganized or small groups, including some members of Palestinian security services, killed at least 36 Israelis, including 17 settlers, as well as 10 members of the Israeli security forces in the occupied territories during the year. Off-duty members of PA security forces and members of Chairman Arafat's Fatah faction participated in some of these attacks.

A number of extremist Palestinian groups, including the militant Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), the Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ), the PFLP, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), and Fatah-affiliated groups such as the al-Aqsa Brigades, the Thabet Thabet Group, and the Brigades of Return, killed 51 Israelis and 4 foreigners and injured numerous others in the occupied territories during the year. The PA had made few arrests in these killings by year's end.

On the Israeli Defense Forces in the Occupied Territories:

[quote] Israel's overall human rights record in the occupied territories was poor, continuing a deterioration that began in late 2000, after the beginning of the sustained violence of the Intifada. Israeli security forces committed numerous, serious human rights abuses during the year. Security forces killed at least 501 Palestinians and 1 foreign national and injured 6,300 Palestinians and other persons during the year, including innocent bystanders.

Some journalists who were covering the clashes were injured and killed by IDF fire. The Israeli authorities placed limits on freedom of assembly, and severely restricted freedom of movement for Palestinians. Israeli security forces failed to prevent, and in some cases protected, some Israelis who entered Palestinian-controlled areas in the West Bank and injured and killed several Palestinians.

In contravention of their own rules of engagement, which provide that live fi

[TheMojoPin]

I am not sure which you should pull your head out of first, the sand or your ass. Take your pick.

No, really, go ahead. Show me how we are directly threatened. Or what Israel provides that's so valuable that requires us to stick our necks out again and again and again and again and again...

Scratch that, I'll tell how we're threatened. Everything Israel does is also automatically blamed on us because we back them on EVERYTHING. Which has done...what? How has our support for Israel benefited us? An ally in the Middle East? Again, if they don't produce oil (And NO, this is NOT a "war for oil" thing), what HONEST use do we have for ANY of those countries? Why should we support Israel when they can clearly handle themselves and kick EVERYONE'S ass around them, and having us as a direct ally only HINDERS them and forces them to do everything to the minimum of their capability? Why? And don't give me some useless, pie-in-the-sky, "we need to defend democracy" nonsense, because it's not worth it if it we're not going to let the people we're helping fight their own fight as best they can and it's just getting us deeper into a "war on terror" that CAN'T be fought like we're trying to fight it.

All I get is either insults, jabs or meaningless "they're our ally" meanderings. Remember...FRANCE was our ally. That doesn't mean shit. Our own government, as shown above, officially doesn't view Israel in much higher regard than Palestine when it comes to killing the wrong people or being able to do the right thing...why should I?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-22-03 @ 4:16 AM

[sexy bastard]

I fell asleep during Days of Our Lives

i thought that was a true sign of the end of the world

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www.leohernandez.net

[Bergalad]

Alright. Here's why we should care about what these terror groups are doing.

What do you think these groups would do if Israel was eliminated? Do you think they would stop fighting? Would they just pack up and say "great! no more problems!"? Israel is hated only slightly more than the US, and our ending support for Israel will not diminish that rancor very much.

If the terror organizations succeed in defeating Israel, why would they think they couldn't beat us too? The Taliban thought they could beat us after driving out the Soviets, and so gave the green light to bin Laden for his operations against America. Hezbollah would continue to be funded by Iran, Hamas by Syria, and they would not cease in their attempts to expand their ideology (there you go YD) by force to our country. I don't believe it's reasonable to think they will stop if Israel is gone.

That is what I am concerned about. Israel can take care of itself, and I wish them the best in doing whatever is necessary to stop their people from being killed. If a bus blew up a few times a month in New Jersey, I promise the people here would go nuts. We overthrew two countries for just one (albeit spectacular and hopefully unique)terrorist attack, what would we do for 4-5 a month?

There was a time we thought al Qaeda wasn't our problem either, but this is now a global fight on terrorism, and to just sit back and say Hamas isn't a problem for all civilized people...I just don't accept that. I am not excusing what Israel and her people have done, but factor out retalitory strikes and the divide between what Israel and "Palestinian" terrorists have done is immense.

If we are to effectively win against terror, then we need the help of the rest of the world. If we need, and for some expect, multilateralism then why should other nations not expect our help in return?

[TheMojoPin]

What do you think these groups would do if Israel was eliminated? Do you think they would stop fighting? Would they just pack up and say "great! no more problems!"? Israel is hated only slightly more than the US, and our ending support for Israel will not diminish that rancor very much.

Why not? First of all, I don't buy for a second that these groups or countries can honestly come close to destroying Israel. Second of all, if we removed our presence and support from Israel (Presumably once we had left Iraq as well), how would these groups direct themselves against us? And how would the terrorists expand? Yes, they base their organizations on blatant LIES, but it's pretty fucking hard to lie when we simply AREN'T THERE.

There ARE different levels to these terrorist groups in capability. We stupidly lagged behind Al Queda (Which we NEVER "ignored", but simply COULDN'T track), but they were a global network for most of that time. Hamas is not going to suddenly have the capability to strike at us. They really don't even seem to be that skilled at setting off effective suicide bombings. Horrible as these attacks are, let's get serious...they're not that damaging. And an attack on the US would, as you say, bring us down on them. I guarentee you that the majority of these attacks go on now because they KNOW we're holding Israel on a tight leash. They KNOW Israel can't fully fight back as long as they're our ally because we can't and won't allow it. They strike how they do because they KNOW that neither us or Israel either can't or won't truly pursue them. You set Israel loose and for better or for worse, I promise you the job will be done. Israel will NOT be destroyed. Not even close.

but this is now a global fight on terrorism

We're not fighting one. And we don't need to fight one. It's almost a cliche at this point, but if we're not helping our dear friends the British with the Irish or the Russians with their Muslim extremists, why does Israel rate? Why are their local homegrown terrorists suddenly "possible threats to America itself" but others aren't? Our SERIOUS threats are limited mostly to in this country, southeast Asia, much of the Middle East and northeastern Africa. If we cut this nonsense about fighting around the world like we're S.H.I.E.L.D. or something and focus JUST ON THOSE AREAS FOR THE TIME BEING and the groups that exist to have US destroyed we'll get something serious done. Playing around pretending that bumfuck regional extremists are a threat to America itself accomplishes nothing for us and their REAL and constant target, handicapped Israel.

Hamas isn't a problem for us. We can't keep treating terrorism like it's some huge boogeyman and ALL terrorits groups and ALL terrorists can strike at us at any time. There IS a sliding scale. Anything else is just buying into the hype terrorists WANT people to believe.

Al Queda...threat to the U.S..

Hamas...NOT a threat to the U.S.. Again, that's on the scale of saying the IRA threatens us because we support their hated enemy the British.

ALL terrorists are NOT out to get us. Or would not choose to strike at us if it was beyond their means (As it is for most of the groups directed at Israel). Simple as that. We DO need to pick and choose. Priorites, plain and simple. And the best way we could help Israel right now is to let them do what needs to be done without getting our hands dirty. If we fought with them side-by-side we'd have WW3 by the end of the year. That's the sad, stupid truth. As direct allies, they do nothing but make us a target and weigh us down. It's not cool, but why do we let them drag us into messes that often are NOT our fight and why do they let us hold them back? It's a lose/lose relationship for both of us.



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Th

[Bergalad]

You type very fast.


Did you know Syria is on the Counter-Terrorism Committee for the United Nations? You should read the report they gave...oh my.

I would love to have a thorough conversation about this with you, but few on here would care very much to read it. I understand your position on this, and we differ in how we would keep America secure. That's fine.

I will say that it's nearly impossible to predict or profile what a terrorist group will do simply because anyone who is willing to blow themselves is difficult to understand for most people. To assume that Islamic Fundamentalism will pack its bags and go home...well I just don't assume it at all.

[TheMojoPin]

Well, you just answered it for BOTH of us.

Neither of us can read minds. And in my opinion we can't put ourselves at risk over "could be's" and "maybe's" when there are viable and active threats TODAY.

I'm readily aware of possible terrorist threats and the backings of Palestinian. I still have my lowly Agency security clearance. I read every document my father, a senior intelliegence officer with the CIA's CTC, is able to get his hands on that I am cleared for. I do my best to stay informed, and I can only make ASSUMPTIONS from that. I'm by no means no expert, but I'd like to think I'm somewhat more informed than the average citizen (As you are as well), and I can only make my decisions based on what I know and assume (As you are doing).

Let me put it another way...BEFORE 9/11, what would our reasoning be for standing by Israel so unflinchingly? Now we need them to take a stand...to learn from our past mistakes. But BEFORE those mistakes...what accounts for the 30 years of rolling with the political punches for this tiny bit of land? Seemingly because they can kick some ass in the region, but we don't even let them do that anymore.

What you say now makes perfect sense, just as much as my arguments since we're both being subjective and playing with guesswork. I just don't "get" why this one little country who does NOTHING but cause us trouble (Yes, they do provide intelligence, mostly on groups that exist to harm us BECAUSE of our relationship with Israel) rates so highly. I don't care who lives there or who runs it or WHATEVER. It's a mess, it causes us nothing but headaches and the return is SO minsicule compared to the trouble that I simply do not understand WHY.

I think they key is seperation. Not everything can end with us sending in the cavalry. We need to pull back from Israel, Israel needs to expell the Arabs and seperate itself from the Arab world, Britian needs to seperate itself from Ireland and Russia needs to seperate itself from Chechnya. Sure, it kinda sucks not being able to have the pride in extending all these conflicts in all the bitter, pointless ways we've enjoyed for so long, but sometimes you DO need to take some steps back to finally start moving forward.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-22-03 @ 5:32 AM

[Bergalad]

Great post Mojo.

/mindmeld on

We need to pull back from Israel, Israel needs to expell the Arabs and seperate itself from the Arab world, Britian needs to seperate itself from Ireland and Russia needs to seperate itself from Chechnya.

God I wish this would stop the fighting. In 2 out of 3 cases I think it might.

[high fly]

Damn damn damn damn!
Can't think of a way to stir shit up here.
grrrr.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

Too late, high fly, too late...

At this point, Berg and I are rapidly becomming the Hannity & Colmes of the board.

Just as long as we don't become Buchanan & Press...everything will be just fine...

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[high fly]

I'll just shaddap and siddown....






but if you ever need a guest host?

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Snoogans]

ill stir up shit if you want. i dont know whats up but im down for trouble :)

http://wnewsgirl.homestead.com/files/Snoogans.jpg
Silent Bob you one rude motherfucker, she like to go down on you, suck you. line up 2 other guys and make like a circus seal


eww you fuckin faggots, i hate guys, i LOOOOVE WOMEN!

[Bergalad]

Colmes and his freaky eyebrows remind me of an evil Charlie the Owl. Scares the bejebus out of me.

This just in:
The Bush administration on Friday froze the assets of five European-based organizations it says raise money for the radical Palestinian group Hamas.

President Bush said he was taking the action because Hamas claimed responsibility for Tuesday's suicide attack on a packed bus in Jerusalem that killed 20 people, including six children.

The move, being carried out by the Treasury Department, also targets six top Hamas leaders.
Asset Freeze (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20030822/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_hamas)

[high fly]

Headline in tomorrow's paper:

"Terrorists Heed Bush's Call To 'Bring-Em On"

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Snoogans]

ill say right off the bat on the question im about to ask, i really dont know. ive thought about it, good and bad of both, and i still dont know. so help me, you guys really think we should be involved with that
they are at war, have been for a long time. i dont see us freezing northern irelands assests for doin the same things.
on the other hand its fucked up shit to do that, and is as much so if not more fucked up to pay for it.
i dont know, but i wouldnt like someone tryin to tell me if im in a fight, you dont get any weapons because you keep fighting with a friend of mine

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Silent Bob you one rude motherfucker, she like to go down on you, suck you. line up 2 other guys and make like a circus seal


eww you fuckin faggots, i hate guys, i LOOOOVE WOMEN!

[TheMojoPin]

Beyond the asset-freezing, I think we're on the verge of Israel taking a HUGE move towards taking matters into their hands. The news reports I've been seeing supposedly indicate that if the Palestinian authority does not crack down on terror groups ASAP, the Israeli government is willing to wage strikes as far as Syria to get the list of targets they have now. How should the US respond to an action like this if it goes down?

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[high fly]

my head is in my hands and I am weeping uncontrollably...

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Snoogans]

mojo, isreal broke talks, sealed up. they shot some missles and killed a high rankin hamas guy today from what i heard. i say let em have it out, and someone ends up with a country. how the fuck you think we got ours. we got bigger shit to worry about on our homefront

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Silent Bob you one rude motherfucker, she like to go down on you, suck you. line up 2 other guys and make like a circus seal


eww you fuckin faggots, i hate guys, i LOOOOVE WOMEN!

[Bergalad]

How should the US respond to an action like this if it goes down?

Add another color above red to the Terrorist Alert levels. They're gonna need it.

[high fly]

I'm thinking "puce".

" and they ask me why I drink"