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HBox
08-21-2003, 02:45 PM
Alabama judge refuses to remove 10 Commandments monument (http://www.msnbc.com/news/954934.asp?0cv=CB10)

Some people just can't grasp the concept of separation of church and state, and it is very discouraging that one of them happen to be a state supreme court justice, even if that state happens to be Alabama.

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Mike Teacher
08-21-2003, 03:15 PM
One thing you get to learn as a teacher is Government vs. Religion vs. Prayer vs. evolution vs. Graduation Invocations vs. Team Prayers etc et al ad nauseum... From My Blog:

His Argument: The Alabama State Constitution invokes the name of God in it's Preamble. It does, like many other state constitutions. No argument there.

He believes that not only is the statue proper; he believes that since the Alabama State Constitution invokes God, the statue Follows, not Contradicts, the laws of the State of Alabama.

BUT: The fact that while the Alabama state Constitution invokes God, it is Superceded by the Constitution of The United States of America, which does not invoke god, and as we all know, the statue violates That Constitutions ban on the Governmental Establishment of Religion.

SO: The Supreme court, agreeing with the decision of the state, refused to get involved.


INTERESTING: This is it. It's over. Now that the decision has been made, the order Must be carried out; and folks may indeed start Civil Disobediance, and lay down in front of the statue, blocking its removal. He's talking about an appeal; but the Court of the Land said on Wednesday it would not entertain it. Could Get VERY interesting, especially with a sitting Prez who is Invoking God left and right.

INTERESTING FACT: Many people who support the Statue say they are doing the work of Martin Luther King, Jr.

Actually, while King did defy STATE orders to disperse when he and others engaged in Civil Disobedience; but King Never went against a FEDERAL ruling. He said he would indeed follow the Law of the Land, meaning the US Constitution, but he would not follow State constitutions that had anti-black/Jim Crow/Segregationist Laws.



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Grim
08-21-2003, 04:49 PM
Comparing what they are doing to the work of Martin Luther King Jr is absurd and offensive. Dr. King worked towards trying to gain awareness and acceptance of a people and their struggle...Not an idea and set of beliefs.

No matter what your feeling on religion is, it is now, and will forever be, an idea. If you feel as though following in the ways stated by that idea makes you a better person, then by all means, you have the right to do so. But to compare a civil disobedience to try and bring upon change that would make life more liveable for a people to "Please don't take my statue away...I love my God" is absurd.

It just goes to show that no matter how far we come, there are some people who just don't get it.

As far as the actual law and decision to remove the statue, I think the arguement is pretty clear cut. Do I think this whole removal of "God" thing is getting absurd? A bit, yeah. But then again to me, "God" is only a word. But the fact is people take religion way too seriously and literally, and until the day comes when there is a definitive answer on "Who's God, if any, is the right one to follow" we're asking for trouble from radicals who can't seperate themselves from their religion by giving them any reason to believe that we are trying to push one system of beliefs over another.

Moreover, is this infact an attempt to maintain some sort of honor and continued worship to "The Lord" or is it rather just a situation where someone refuses to accept change to the status quo, because it may in some manner, eventually lead to more progressive ways of thinking?

Grim

This message was edited by Grim on 8-21-03 @ 8:51 PM

ChickenHawk
08-21-2003, 05:11 PM
The term "separation of church and state" is an easy cop out, because it is often loosely and improperly used. The occurance in this story is by no means a violation of church & state. The ammendment in The Constitution that discusses separation of church and state says:
"Congress shall make no law with regard to an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

This sign in front of the building does not infringe on anyone's Constitutional rights or civil justices. Nor does it strip anyone of their right to practice the religion of their choice. It's simply a statue. The statue's presence does not have any effect on a person's right to a fair trial. Basically, what I'm saying is, "church and state" discusses that the government cannot make decisions that are based on any specific religion and vice versa.

Now that everyone who says "it's a violation of church and state" is out of the way, the question lies within the judge's right to place a statue of his choice in front of the courthouse. The focus of the argument lies in his liberty to "decorate" the outside of the courthouse. What if he put a statue of a naked couple 69'ing in front of the courthouse? What if he wanted a sign that says "I love shrimp!" THAT is the issue. Can he decide what the outside of the courthouse looks like? Should the statue be removed or not? I don't know. It depends on whether or not he's allowed to put it there.

It's not a church and state issue. That's just a bogus leftist argument.

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TheGameHHH
08-21-2003, 05:12 PM
god bless the South!

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HBox
08-21-2003, 05:32 PM
The term "separation of church and state" is an easy cop out, because it is often loosely and improperly used. The occurance in this story is by no means a violation of church & state. The ammendment in The Constitution that discusses separation of church and state says:
"Congress shall make no law with regard to an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

That amendment's, like other amendments, meaning has been expanded by many Supreme Court rulings. The government cannot endorse any one religion. The argument here would be that this does just that. This isn't some vague mention of God, it is a monument to the teaching of one specific belief.

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Fallon
08-21-2003, 05:45 PM
Alabama 10
You woke up this morning
Got yourself a gun
Mama always said you'd be
The chosen one
She said you're one in a million
You've got burn to shine
But you were born under a bad sign
With blue moon in your eyes...

Oh wait, that's Alabama 3. Sorry!

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sr71blackbird
08-21-2003, 06:04 PM
I'm deeply offended




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DJEvelEd
08-21-2003, 06:13 PM
If they allow this, then Buddists, Muslims, and any other religion can sue to have equal treatment.

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sr71blackbird
08-21-2003, 06:26 PM
Thing is, I understand what your saying, but the fact is that no major religion, Christain,Jew, or Muslim all have Moses in their holy books. Our legal system and social mores are based upon the Ten Commandments. Its clear that as a society, the further we move away from the more conservative idealogy that we were founded under (despite the phrase "Seperation of Church and State") the more deeply we become a repugnant culture that embraces idealogy's which undermine the basic freedoms and liberty that we all currently enjoy.


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phixion
08-21-2003, 06:41 PM
but the fact is that no major religion


since when is hinduism not a major religion? last time i checked the billion people in india were all loving vishnu.

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dcpete
08-21-2003, 06:47 PM
my main fear in this entire thing is if the judge won or even doesn't get disbarred. there will be a huge surge in appeals in alabama if the defendant isn't christian judism. they could claim that the judge was biased for christianity and judism and that had an effect on his ruling. and they would win the appeals because its obvious he is. that would just destroy the judiciary system in alabama which is bad.

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Yerdaddy
08-21-2003, 07:22 PM
Our legal system and social mores are based upon the Ten Commandments.
Well, let's see how many of the Big Ten are codified into US law:

NO 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

NO 2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

NO 3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

NO 4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.

NO 5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

YES 6. Thou shalt not kill.

NO 7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

YES 8. Thou shalt not steal.

YES 9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

NO 10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

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HBox
08-21-2003, 07:33 PM
.333 is a good batting average in baseball, but not so good for your theory. Sssoorrrry!

That's .300, Mr. Hawking.

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Yerdaddy
08-21-2003, 07:36 PM
That's .300, Mr. Hawking.

I wasn't a theology major.

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ChickenHawk
08-21-2003, 09:21 PM
The government cannot endorse any one religion. The argument here would be that this does just that. This isn't some vague mention of God, it is a monument to the teaching of one specific belief.
Yeah, there's no law against monuments that have religious messages. The question is whther or not the judge is allowed to put it there. Once again, the law of the land is not in any way infringed upon by this statue. It doesn't change the rules of the courthouse. That is all that matters in an issue of church & state.

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Bama
08-21-2003, 09:28 PM
I hear about this crap 24-7. Who cares.

ROLL TIDE.

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TheMojoPin
08-21-2003, 10:14 PM
The term "separation of church and state" is an easy cop out

EXACTLY.

JUST LIKE "the right to bear arms".

BROTHER!!! COME TO MY ARMS!!

We both see though these bogus leftist/right arguments!



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Death Metal Moe
08-21-2003, 11:18 PM
Leave 'em.

It's each state's right to decice if they want it. And even though I'm not for it, revisionist history will not be able to change the fact that the Founding Fathers believed in God.

Plus, I LOVED watching Alan Keys make Colmes uncomfortable tonight on FOX. What a ball buster.

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TheMojoPin
08-21-2003, 11:25 PM
And even though I'm not for it, revisionist history will not be able to change the fact that the Founding Fathers believed in God.

That is in no way concrete.

Nor is the idea that the founding fathers were mostly atheist or Unitarian.

Take your pick.

Was America founded as a Christian nation? (http://r2rministries.com/history/X0067_America_-_A_Christia.html)

The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians (http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/march96/morris.html)

In my opinion, laws and government do not mix with religion. History tends to back me up. But that's just me.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-22-03 @ 3:26 AM

A.J.
08-22-2003, 04:28 AM
The most disturbing thing about this controversy is the Chief Justice's god-awful hair plugs.

Yeah, it looks real.

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/LAW/08/22/ten.commandments/top.moore.jpg

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Bergalad
08-22-2003, 06:01 AM
I don't think the Judge should have the statue out there. If he wants it in his yard, that's one thing, but not at the courthouse. While it is plausable that one could point to the 15, no 10 Commandments as a basis for western law, so too could someone claim Hammurabi's Code had the same sort of influence. So until we get a Babylonian statue up there, the current one needs to be removed.

The "Separation of Church and State" protest was already aptly thwarted by ChickenHawk. This statue does not establish one specific religion, as the 10 Commandments are inherent to both Judism and Christianity. You could throw in Islam too, but I am not feeling too generous to them right now.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard it on a news program the other day. I heard that the court that told the judge to remove the 10 Commandments statue had the 10 Commandments engraved on the walls inside their courtroom. Anyone else hear that? If it's true, then I don't understand how they could tell that judge to do anything.

Furtherman
08-22-2003, 07:54 AM
I just think it's sad that people waste their time over religion.

Bama
08-22-2003, 09:24 AM
Moore is just beginning his run for governor. He's trying to have a stand like Wallace did back in the day. The current Republican governor is not too popular because he's looking to raise taxes. Moore's gonna stand up and make speeches until the things over and then bitch about it until the 2006 election for gov.

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Bergalad
08-22-2003, 09:46 AM
I haven't heard he was thinking of a gubernatorial run, but I haven't gotten too invested in this issue. Did you hear that somewhere Bama or is that your analysis of the situation? If it's yours, nice insight.

HBox
08-22-2003, 01:15 PM
And even though I'm not for it, revisionist history will not be able to change the fact that the Founding Fathers believed in God.

And many of them were slave owners. So what does that mean?

What the founding fathers believed in has absolutely nothing to do with this case. It's what they actually wrote in the Constitution.

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keithy_19
08-22-2003, 01:39 PM
People have seperation of church and state totally wrong. It states that the state can not force any single religion on the American public. Having the ten commandments doesn't do that. There is mention of the ten commandments in lots of places including, the bible, the koran and so on and so forth. There laws that the United States based there laws on. Its just a way to completely get rid of religion. Yeah, thats gonna help our country.

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Bama
08-22-2003, 01:53 PM
I haven't heard he was thinking of a gubernatorial run, but I haven't gotten too invested in this issue. Did you hear that somewhere Bama or is that your analysis of the situation? If it's yours, nice insight.

Well, I can't really take credit for it. It seems like most of my professors at the law school feel like he will anyway. The Alabama Supreme Court is an elected position so our judges have to be political. He ran on being the "10 Commandments judge" to win the Chief Justice office in a state wide election and won by a landslide. It's not crazy to think he could do the same thing as governor - especially since the Republican party has turned on Governor Riley. They need a new guy and he's the most famous Republican in the state.

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TheMojoPin
08-22-2003, 11:47 PM
There is mention of the ten commandments in lots of places including, the bible, the koran and so on and so forth

All religious texts. Holy books, sacred writings...how would that not be endorsing or forcing one religion over another again? Throwing up a statue of these things in the middle of the town says, "we choose THIS religion". I don't care if a judge has one in his office or home...this effectively says that the ENTIRE town is going by this creed. Sounds like trying to force something on someone to me. It doesn't have to be the Spanish Inquisition to be "forced religion".

There laws that the United States based there laws on.

Bullshit.

Yerdaddy made a great point and laid out the Commandments. There's THREE of them that are applicable to laws in this country. Three. Less than half.

Its just a way to completely get rid of religion. Yeah, thats gonna help our country.

Nobody's trying to get rid of religion, just keep it out of our government and, quite frankly, out of the general public. Religion is a personal thing that holds importance with each INDIVIDUAL that practices it. God's not gonna love you any harder because you've got some fucking stone statue in the middle of the town. Why do so many people in ANY religion feel the need to parade their PERSONAL faith to anyone who is within earshot? If you want to, hey, go ahead...you can. But don't expect people to just roll over and take it. Like it or not, we're FAR from all being the same.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-23-03 @ 3:50 AM

NewYorkDragons80
08-23-2003, 12:30 PM
I'm a pretty religious individual, but I don't feel that the 10 Commandments belong in the courthouse. Nor do I feel that Greek Goddesses belong there either. Plus, based on the tone of his speeches, I think this judge has higher political aspirations.

To comment on Mojo's statement. The Founding Fathers were almost certainly Deists. What they were really doesn't matter, though. They all believed that they should not be exposed to someone else's creed through the government. The real pisser about this issue is that if I was an Alabama politician, I would be scared shitless to speak out on how I really felt. If I got up there and said "I believe in the 10 Commandments, but..." people would think that I was putting up a religious facade to add legitimacy to my argument. However, I don't think anyone is exploiting religion more that this Judge. Again, I am pretty religious and that's why I am so offended that he would use something I and about a billion other people hold sacred to sway the political climate in his favor.

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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 8-23-03 @ 4:40 PM

NewYorkDragons80
08-23-2003, 12:46 PM
Sorry, 3.3 billion.

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TheMojoPin
08-23-2003, 02:31 PM
AMEN.

Pun intended.

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Se7en
08-24-2003, 07:03 PM
Alabama Judge Orders Removal of 'No Parking' Signs
(2003-08-20) -- A federal judge in Alabama has ordered the state to remove "No Parking" signs currently posted around government buildings.

"The signs are a relic of an antiquated morality that allows a small group of people to impose their will on the majority," the unnamed judge wrote. "We learned during Prohibition that you cannot solve problems by passing laws and punishing wrongdoers. What right does the state have to say 'Thou shalt not park'?"

The judge said his ruling is consistent with precedent which forbids the posting of the so-called "Ten Commandments" in a state judicial building.

"The law has no foundation, Divine or otherwise," he wrote. "The law is what the court says it is today, and if it says something else tomorrow, then that is the law."


Alabama Monument Stays, Commandments Repealed
(2002-08-22) -- An Alabama federal judge ruled tonight that a monument inscribed with the so-called 10 Commandments can stay in the state judicial building, however, the judge's order repeals the actual commandments.

"This case isn't about a big chunk of stone," wrote the unnamed federal judge. "The real problem is the commandments themselves. I hereby repeal all 10 of the commandments."

The judge wrote that the commandments are "antiquated, provincial and short-sighted. Our modern ideas of what constitutes murder, adultery, theft and lying are much more progressive."

"The monument can stay in the building," the judge wrote, "as a relic of a bygone era when our simple-minded ancestors believed this kind of thing -- a time when people still thought of things in terms of right and wrong."


Justice Moore Installs Oath of Office Monument
(2003-08-22) -- Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore today ordered the installation of another stone monument in the rotunda of the state judicial building.

The move comes as Justice Moore continues to defy a federal judge's order to remove a Ten Commandments monument from the building.

The new monument is a simple stone block engraved on top with the words of the Alabama state oath of office which Justice Moore and other state officials have sworn to uphold.

Here is the text of the oath: "I solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the Constitution of the United States, and the Constitution of the State of Alabama, so long as I continue a citizen thereof; and that I will faithfully and honestly discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter, to the best of my ability. So help me God."

The front of the monument bears these words from the preamble to the Alabama Constitution: "We, the people of the State of Alabama, in order to establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution and form of government for the State of Alabama"

One side of the monument contains a phrase from the U.S. Declaration of Independence: "...with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

The other side of the stone displays part of the text of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."


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This message was edited by Se7en on 8-24-03 @ 11:05 PM

Yerdaddy
08-24-2003, 07:23 PM
Your news parody site has a knack for missing the point.

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TheMojoPin
08-24-2003, 07:51 PM
No offense to the homophobic Catholic church, but why are they so fucking GAY??!?!


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Se7en
08-25-2003, 12:36 PM
Your news parody site has a knack for missing the point.


You have a knack for lacking a sense of humor.

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TheMojoPin
08-25-2003, 12:43 PM
Someone tell these assholes the rest of us don't like being miserable.

I guess I'm a typical recovering Catholic. Everything is all well and good until you just get SICK AND TIRED of being told how wrong you are and how you're suppose to feel guilty and shamed over seemingly EVERYTHING you might enjoy. Everything has to be about keeping something down...other people, emotions, certain movies/TV/radio/books, desires, WHATEVER. Morality, self-control, hey, great...everyone needs a little to just be a decent human being. BUT STOP BEATING EVERYONE ELSE OVER THE HEAD WITH IT. WE'RE NOT YOU. STOP IT.

I don't care what or how people worship. Religion CAN be a good thing all the time and it makes countless people happy. But also seems to make a lot of these think that they need to push THEIR beliefs and practices on the people around them whether they want it or not. Where does this presumption come from? What's wrong with sharing in the faith of yourself, your family and the other people in your group that feel the same way you do? If people want to join, they will. Stop trying to "recruit" people or press your faith on others. It's not cool.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-25-03 @ 4:52 PM

Furtherman
08-25-2003, 12:53 PM
I agree. Plus, when you die and realize that there is no god, well then, gosh darn it ya really feel like an idiot.

This message was edited by Furtherman on 8-25-03 @ 4:53 PM

Megadeth
08-28-2003, 07:15 PM
Why is it impossible for people to tell the difference between what the First Ammendment actually says and the little punchline "Seperation of Church and State" by the bigoted left?

douchebagsean
08-28-2003, 07:21 PM
If they allow this, then Buddists, Muslims, and any other religion can sue to have equal treatment.
which is exactly why there should be a separation between church and state. as for saying a prayer before a football game, i have no problem with a "quick non-denominational please lets not have any serious injuries" type of prayer. but again there should always be a nice clean line between church and state.

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Yerdaddy
08-28-2003, 07:55 PM
Why is it impossible for people to tell the difference between what the First Ammendment actually says and the little punchline "Seperation of Church and State" by the bigoted left?
By "bigoted left" you mean, of course Thomas Jefferson, who coined the phrase. I think he would object to the term "bigoted."

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TheMojoPin
08-28-2003, 09:29 PM
"Where's your Messiah NOW?!?!"

Oh, that's right. In the broom closet.

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAH!!!

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NewYorkDragons80
08-29-2003, 11:36 AM
What does this have to do with the Catholic Church?

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ChickenHawk
08-29-2003, 01:09 PM
Plus, when you die and realize that there is no god, well then, gosh darn it ya really feel like an idiot.

If there is no God, you'll never know. Thus, you can't feel like an idiot because you'll be too busy being dead. There's no such thing as an "I Told You So" Party for Atheists.

*SIG PENDING*

Se7en
08-29-2003, 05:35 PM
I'm a Christian (of sorts), so this whole mess had distressed me a little bit. There are times I feel that the U.S. is becoming more of a secular nation than I'm comfortable with.

But then I look at the Middle East and at the millions of Muslims in the world, and I think to myself, gee, maybe a secular nation isn't SO bad compared to the alternative.

By "bigoted left" you mean, of course Thomas Jefferson, who coined the phrase. I think he would object to the term "bigoted."

Yeah, but he owned (and fucked) slaves, so I think the term "bigot" is a little bit appropriate.

I don't care what or how people worship. Religion CAN be a good thing all the time and it makes countless people happy. But also seems to make a lot of these think that they need to push THEIR beliefs and practices on the people around them whether they want it or not. Where does this presumption come from? What's wrong with sharing in the faith of yourself, your family and the other people in your group that feel the same way you do? If people want to join, they will. Stop trying to "recruit" people or press your faith on others. It's not cool.

There's problems with this, though.

For some people, having a harmless nativity scene on your lawn is "shoving" your religion down their throats.

What's the line? It's not so easily defined, and trying to define it too strictly borders upon religious persecution.

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TheMojoPin
08-29-2003, 09:38 PM
For some people, having a harmless nativity scene on your lawn is "shoving" your religion down their throats.

Those people are wrong.

They shouldn't even have a say against if it's on public property. The only time this stuff needs to come into issue is when it's involving government buildings/grounds/offices/officials. That's it. It's a VERY clear distinction in my book. Anything else is a dispute between private parties or individuals.

I don't care whether it says church and state are seperate or not. You'd have to be naive as fuck to read just a LITTLE of the history of mankind to not realize that religion and government simply canNOT mix.

Regardless of what the founding fathers believed (Which NOBODY seems to know for sure, so shut up before you say anything), I have yet to see anything where they encouraged religion to have a say in our government, state or federal. It's one thing to have moral basis in a religion...it's another to say that they actually supported and propped it up when they formed our nation and 1nserted it into our country's framework. They didn't.

Religion and government. No-no. Bad. Booooo. Anything else goes. Anything and everything. How is this so hard?

The other thing that irks me here is all this bemoaning about our decline as a "moral" society because people are moving away from "the church". How disgustingly arrogant. The implication is that basically someone like me, who no longer attends church and might not believe in God, isn't as "moral" or "right" as this country supposedly "needs" and anyone who IS "of the faith" is part of the solution and not the problem. What the eff? Pardon me for simply believing in common human sensibility and decency without the invisible guidance of some higher power living somewhere "up there". But don't act like because someone doesn't feel like spending an hour tw a week in church that we're teetering on the brink of anarchy.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-30-03 @ 3:36 AM