The White House and NYC Air [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

42nd-delay

08-23-2003, 04:20 PM

Wait...you mean to tell me they cherrypicked information from reports to fit whatever their agenda was?! No way!

Aug. 22, 2003 | WASHINGTON (AP) -- At the White House's direction, the Environmental Protection Agency gave New Yorkers misleading assurances that there was no health risk from the debris-laden air after the World Trade Center collapse, according to an internal inquiry.

President Bush's senior environmental adviser on Friday defended the White House involvement, saying it was justified by national security.

The White House "convinced EPA to add reassuring statements and De1ete cautionary ones" by having the National Security Council control EPA communications in the wake of the Sept. 11 terror attacks, according to a report issued late Thursday by EPA Inspector General Nikki L. Tinsley.

Click here (http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/08/22/epa/index.html)

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"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

This message was edited by 42nd-delay on 8-23-03 @ 8:21 PM

Death Metal Moe

08-23-2003, 05:13 PM

What should they have done? Shut down NYC for even longer then they needed to?

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ChickenHawk

08-23-2003, 05:17 PM

What George Bush SHOULDDA done was temporarily replace the Twin Towers with two 110-story HEPA filters from The Sharper Image...

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HBox

08-23-2003, 05:22 PM

Really, someone please give me a legitimate reason why the National Security Council should have anything to do with the measuring of air quality in NY? Please. I beg you.

I mean, we don't know if the air was a problem. But the NSC didn't even let the EPA measure before forcing them to say the air wasn't. That is bullshit.

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Yerdaddy

08-23-2003, 06:33 PM

What should they have done? Shut down NYC for even longer then they needed to?
No. They should have allowed the EPA to give correct information so NYers, especially people with health problems, could have taken precautions, like worn masks or stayed indoors, until the risks went away. Shutting down NY, and national security in general, should have had nothing to do with air quality.

What the fuck does air pollution from the debris have to do with national security? I have less and less respect for this administration every day.

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Heavy

08-23-2003, 07:18 PM

They wanted things to go back to normal. Cut them some slack

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sr71blackbird

08-23-2003, 07:48 PM

Shutting down NY, and national security in general, should have had nothing to do with air quality.

This would have had dire conequences. People were already on edge at the time. This might have caused a panic and it was important to alot of firefighter friends I have to be there and help as they did. The air could have been radioactive and they would have been there.
20/20 hindsight is a wonderful talent. There has been some suggestion that the blackout we had here last week was terrorist related. If they had gone and stated that, what would have been the reaction of the public? Mass exodus from Manhattan? Economic instability? We have to be careful what we release. Granted I know what your saying, that if someome with asthma was suffereing because of incorrect information, I think that they should weigh whats in the best interest of society at large than what effects a numerically small percentage of the population and its effect on our economic stability. Any educated person would have had to assume that the air was full of dust and microscopic glass particles and asbestos, if that was used in the Trade Centers construction. I wont go into morbid details regarding particulates of biological origin.

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TheMojoPin

08-23-2003, 07:55 PM

I wont go into morbid details regarding particulates of biological origin.

Thanks, Spock. I thought you were out of your Vulcan mind.

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sr71blackbird

08-23-2003, 08:06 PM

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This message was edited by sr71blackbird on 8-24-03 @ 12:09 AM

FUNKMAN

08-23-2003, 08:09 PM

i think they should have been up front and "cleared the air"...

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Yerdaddy

08-23-2003, 08:21 PM

Airliners crashing into the Twin Towers didn't cause a panic but telling people they should wear paper masks if they have health concearns would have? Sugarcoating health info potentially allowed the attacks to do more damage to Americans. Is there anything that the administration could do that would make you Bush supporters the least bit critical of them? And do you see any comparisons between uncritical opponents of the administration and uncritical supporters? Just curious.

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Yerdaddy

08-23-2003, 08:26 PM

Nice Trilogy of Terror pic, Funkybunch!

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sr71blackbird

08-23-2003, 08:39 PM

I admit to having right leaning tendencies and I also am a bit of a believer that the government hides things from the public. Im also a realist. If it turned out that a terrorist on one of those flights had in his briefcase a vial of some type of contagious agent (ala 12 Monkeys) it wouldnt suprise me. My point is that, its thir responsibility that we, as a populace, dont go into a panic attack and do just what these bastard terrorsits want, which is, by our actions, shut down our world and just cower in a corner mumbling incoherently. I feel we should fight back and show them that regardless of what they throw at us, that we will be still functioning after any attack they throw at us, just to prove that we are a resliant people. What are you suggesting, that we now sue the government because they knew there was an irritant in the air from the collapse of two huge buildings in the symbolic heart of the greatest city in the world?

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This message was edited by sr71blackbird on 8-24-03 @ 12:44 AM

Yerdaddy

08-23-2003, 09:15 PM

So lying to the public about health risks is "fighting back," "showing them," "funtctioning after an attack, and "proving we are a resiliant people?"

A vial full of whatever is irrelevant here, and so is mass panic and suing the government. What is relevant is that witholding this information, if it proves to be the full story, was stupid, dangerous and wrong. Being a democracy we should be able to demand a full investigation, and if it's the case, then to hold the administration accountable at the polls. But since we've got so many people willing to think only along partisan or ideological lines, this may not even lead to a full accounting of the circumstances, much less accountability for whoever made the decision. And I don't even expect that it would have much of an effect on the voting public. It's depressing.

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TheMojoPin

08-23-2003, 11:39 PM

Im also a realist. If it turned out that a terrorist on one of those flights had in his briefcase a vial of some type of contagious agent (ala 12 Monkeys) it wouldnt suprise me.

So real that you forgot that the extreme heat of the impact, explosion and buring jet fuel would have likely destroyed the agent/virus?

And right on, this isn't about Bush. ANY administration could have been in power after 9/11, and if they had told us that wearing plates on our heads piled high with dog turds would show the terrorists that they "hadn't won" I doubt anybody would have even blinked.

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Bergalad

08-24-2003, 07:17 AM

Is there anything that the administration could do that would make you Bush supporters the least bit critical of them?
Yes, there is and has been in my case. The better question would be is there anything this administration does that you don't criticize? I don't recall ever seeing you post something positive about the administration.

Here, I don't see a very good reason why this report was modified from the get-go. No doubt was an extra level of terrorist paranoia that drove the government to obscure the truth, but that does not make it right. The report should have been issued with the correct facts or not issued at all.

silera

08-24-2003, 09:19 AM

This disinformation prevented people from making fully informed decisions. Because of this, many of the volunteers at Ground Zero are now suffering from serious respiratory problems. Beyond those that chose to go into the hot spot and help out, there are many, like me, that live or work within 2- 5 miles of the area. I actually live and work within one mile.

In the days immediately following the attack, I went about my normal business and took no precautions with myself or my children to keep from breathing the air. I've noticed that I've been much more susceptible to respiratory problems, am constantly congested and coughing, and even got bronchitis last year. Is this directly related? I don't know, I'll never be sure. I do know that before 9/11 I very rarely got sick.

That doesn't bother me so much as the fact that I may have put my children in danger, and I say that because I was stupid enough to believe the reports about the air.

Why not be proactive and honest? If you are aware that the air quality is not up to par, come down with a barge full of HEPA filters for every resident of NYC. (I know the FEMA plan offered reimbursements, but I didn't take one because I felt like it was a hand out, and I bought my own AC's out of pocket with the filter. Either way, that program didn't take off until at least 6-7 months after 9-11.) Why not make it clear that if you are going to live and work in New York City and the Hudson area of Jersey, you should wear protective face masks? When China was hit with the Sars scare, I saw everyone on the news going about their daily business with masks on.

I think those measures would have cost a lot less than the health care costs associated with the backlash from the misinformation, or the lawsuits.

However, I suffer from having common sense, which our government (Democratic and Republican alike) haven't contracted yet.

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high fly

08-24-2003, 11:38 AM

Anyone coming out with facts contradicting the White House line can expect retaliation.

" and they ask me why I drink"

A.J.

08-26-2003, 06:58 AM

Maybe he's not so "wacko" after all.

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Furtherman

08-26-2003, 08:25 AM

Anyone quick to support the White House administration blindly, just open your eyes and read Silera's post. That is the reality of it. The real air quality should have been made public. If it disrupted downtown, then we would have adjusted and moved on. Don't ask me how, but we would have. That is what Americans do best.

high fly

08-26-2003, 09:52 AM

SILERA, once again, demonstrates her perfection.

I am insanely jealous of Alkey.

" and they ask me why I drink"

phixion

08-26-2003, 11:45 AM

I am insanely jealous of Alkey

tell me about it

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A.J.

08-26-2003, 11:59 AM

What the fuck does air pollution from the debris have to do with national security?

It was the result of a terrorist attack, therefore NSC had to be involved.

My guess is that the administration downplayed any dangers to prevent a panic. Remember the public's reaction to the anthrax scares? How do you think an already shell-shocked city would react if it was reported that it was dangerous to breathe the air?

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This message was edited by AJinDC on 8-26-03 @ 4:00 PM

Yerdaddy

08-26-2003, 12:26 PM

Not in determining whether to tell the public if the debris might be harmful or not. Maybe it played a role in the decision-making, but why? My point is that they should have dealt with the health risks, not tried to cover them up to prevent an unlikely panic.

If they had said there's a chance that anthrax is floating around in the air, then yes, the city is likely to panic and flee the city. But what we're talking about here is how dangerous the materials that the buildings were made of were. To say that this stuff could cause health problems and you should put on paper masks if your're concearned, or if you're going to be working on or near ground zero, is not going to cause people to freak out any more than they already were. We're not that stupid of a people. I just don't think that's a reasonable expectation, and I think it was a calous and stupid decision.

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high fly

08-27-2003, 07:00 AM

If the people are told the truth, the terrorists win.

" and they ask me why I drink"

Bergalad

08-27-2003, 08:03 AM

If the people are told the truth, the terrorists win.
I think I liked you better when you only posted on weekends.

A.J.

08-27-2003, 12:07 PM

It begins...

Clinton calls for hearings on EPA's 9/11 report (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/26/epa.clinton/index.html)

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TheMojoPin

08-27-2003, 12:38 PM

B-but she voted for the war on Iraq...so she MUST be a hypocrite, right?

Right?

Right?

RIGHT?!?

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high fly

08-27-2003, 02:11 PM

Well, yeah, kinda right,... but hasn't she been soft on Christy Todd Whitman and isn't this is just a cold-blooded political move to assuage the hardass anti-CTW hawks who hold the balance of the next election in their hands?
Hmmm?

" and they ask me why I drink"

Bergalad

08-27-2003, 04:45 PM

isn't this is just a cold-blooded political move

How dare you Sir accuse any Clinton of such a thing. How dare you.

high fly

08-27-2003, 04:55 PM

We'll win the war against terrorism by lying to the American people.

If the administration tells the truth, the terrorists win.

oh, I said that once before, didn't I?

" and they ask me why I drink"

TheMojoPin

08-27-2003, 05:03 PM

REMEMBER.

God forbid you automatically take everything Bush does as suspect because you oppose him.

NOW BRING ON THE HILLARY BASHING.

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high fly

08-28-2003, 12:32 PM

The nerve of that Hillary, asking for the truth and all.

We were doing just fine with the lies and all.

" and they ask me why I drink"

A.J.

08-28-2003, 01:42 PM

The nerve of that Hillary, asking for the truth and all.

I just hope the people she investigates have better memories than she did when she was under investigation.

"Billing records? What billing records?"

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This message was edited by AJinDC on 8-28-03 @ 5:43 PM

TheMojoPin

08-28-2003, 09:50 PM

YEAH!!!

FUCK HEALTHY LUNGS!!!

FUCK BREATHING!!!

THERE'S HILLARY AFOOT!!!

YEAH!!!

YEAH!!!

FUCKIN'-A!!!

YEAH!!!

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A.J.

08-29-2003, 06:01 AM

FUCK HEALTHY LUNGS!!!

FUCK BREATHING!!!

Sssssssssh! Mayor Bloomberg will hear you! He'll ban cars in NYC next!

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TheMojoPin

08-29-2003, 08:09 AM

Was he born rich or self-made?

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high fly

09-02-2003, 04:48 PM

What MOJO said.

I mean, like, when he said "YEAH!"

and "FUCKIN' A!"

" and they ask me why I drink"

HBox

09-03-2003, 05:21 PM

What was known about post 9/11 air (http://www.msnbc.com/news/961134.asp?0cv=CA01)

Sept. 13: The EPA draft release - never released to the public - said: EPA "testing terrorized sites for environmental hazards." The White House changed that to EPA "reassures public about environmental hazards."

Sept. 16: The EPA draft said: "Recent samples of dust ... on Water Street show higher levels of asbestos."
The White House version: "New samples confirm ... ambient air quality meets OSHA [government] standards" ... and "is not a cause for public concern."
And the White House left out entirely the warning "that air samples raise concerns for cleanup workers and office workers near Water St."

Why all these changes? Tinsley said, "We were told that a desire to reopen Wall Street and national security concerns were the reasons for changing the press releases."

When all the tests on PCBs and particulates did come in, they did not raise any red flags.

Sigh.

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high fly

09-04-2003, 05:48 AM

YEAH!!!

WHOOP SOME ASS!!

YEAH!!!

" and they ask me why I drink"

HBox

05-18-2004, 03:31 PM

Significant Adverse Effects (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5006568/site/newsweek/site/newsweek/)

I have some personal experience with this. A person who I go to pulmonary rehab with has been waiting for a lung transplant for the last 2 years. He has IPF, Pulmonary Fibrosis. He had to walk around with an oxygen machine. I didn't talk to him much, but today I found out he had his transplant yesterday. The nurses were talking, and they said that the onset of his health problems were caused by 9/11. I don't know too many details, and I've probably seen the last of him since he won't be needing rehab anymore, but this whole situation is really sad. The EPA failed, and it has destroyed people's lives.

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