Abbas Resigns [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

Death Metal Moe

09-07-2003, 08:34 PM

I guess we'll see about that, Moe. I'd like to think that you're wrong, but time will tell.

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Oh believe me NYDragons, I hope I'm wrong too! I don't know WHY someone in the Palistinian community hasn't thrown up their hands and said ENOUGH WITH THE KILLING. Why won't someone stop the cycle of this shit, and hope for a better future for their children then walking bombs and martyrs?

I hope it happens in our lifetime. But things always look bleak overthere.

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TheMojoPin

09-07-2003, 09:32 PM

The one's that don't don't.

Unfortunately, the "cult" of Palestinian terrorists just grows and grows as Hamas' and Arafat's control grows tighter and tighter. Lies, hopelessness, pure evil, WHATEVER. I don't care about the reason, because there's far too many that are overshadowed by one key point...Arafat needs to be removed and Hamas knocked from power.

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reeshy

09-08-2003, 12:03 AM

Quote: Let the killing begin!!! Let loose the Dogs of War!!! Hopefully, no one here is advocating the continuation of killing of innocent bus riders by homicide bombers bent on inflicting death and violence.

Hey Newbie,
Let's not jump to conclusions!! I was being sarcastic!! We all know ( or we should) that the killing wlll go on in this region as long as there is a moslem and a jew within 500 miles of each other. Read your history for the last 1500 years!

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sr71blackbird

09-08-2003, 03:00 AM

Whats Lou gonna do now?????

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neoprosto

09-08-2003, 05:35 AM

Let the killing begin!!! Let loose the Dogs of War!!!
Hopefully, no one here is advocating the continuation of killing of innocent bus riders by homicide bombers bent on inflicting death and violence.
Hey Newbie,Let's not jump to conclusions!! I was being sarcastic!! We all know ( or we should) that the killing wlll go on in this region as long as there is a moslem and a jew within 500 miles of each other. Read your history for the last 1500 years!
I hope that "newbie" business is not supposed to be some kind of insult or put down (like saying "nyah, nyah, n-nyah, nyah"), because this is not a down n' dirty type brawl, it is only a conversation about an important news item. Intelligent conversation is welcome; babyness is not.

It was interesting to see that you felt it would be ok to explain that you were being sarcastic. Other people may not have taken your views this way. So, I am glad you have cleared it all up.

Oh, and yes - history does show that a lot of killing has gone on over the past 1500 years, and quite a bit longer than that. Your point is ... ?

You see, the problems in the Middle Eastern part of the world we live in are quite complex and have roots. Saying things like "Let the killing begin!!! Let loose the Dogs of War!!!" is not a joke, and not productive. Comments like that make it seem that you are marching in lockstep with one of the two sides.

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silera

09-08-2003, 09:36 AM

reeshy

09-08-2003, 10:24 AM

Thank you, Silera, for your kind words..but I must clear something up...the pentagon DOES ask for my opinion all the time!!! I hope I'm not being too babyish!!!!

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TheMojoPin

09-08-2003, 10:25 AM

Can't sleep.

Reeshy'll eat me.

Can't sleep.

Reeshy'll eat me.

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Bestinshow

09-08-2003, 10:43 AM

Comments like that make it seem that you are marching in lockstep with one of the two sides.

Actually it appears the people in this thread are marching in lockstep with one of the two sides. The side that says until someone 1) wants to and 2) has the power to stop Hamas, there will be no peace in Israel. Why, do you disagree?

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NewYorkDragons80

09-08-2003, 01:16 PM

I hope that "newbie" business is not supposed to be some kind of insult or put down (like saying "nyah, nyah, n-nyah, nyah")
Then prepare to be sorely disappointed.

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"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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Alice S. Fuzzybutt

09-08-2003, 03:57 PM

Can't sleep. Reeshy'll eat me. Can't sleep. Reeshy'll eat me.

Iron helps us play! Hey Joe!

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Tazz

09-08-2003, 04:01 PM

I guess the shooting of people throwing rocks and the leveling of people's homes with bulldozers does not equal terrorism anymore?

Let's be fair here. Both sides are equally to blame for the violence.

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A.J.

09-09-2003, 04:04 AM

the pentagon DOES ask for my opinion all the time!!!

Reeshy, my Admiral wanted me to ask you what kind of guns we should put on the next generation destroyer.

Thanks for your help!

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This message was edited by AJinDC on 9-9-03 @ 9:18 AM

neoprosto

09-09-2003, 05:10 AM

Saying things like "Let the killing begin!!! Let loose the Dogs of War!!!" is not a joke, and not productive. Comments like that make it seem that you are marching in lockstep with one of the two sides.
Comments like this make it seem that you are unaware that you are posting on a messageboard for fans of a comedy radio show.
And comments like that sure make it seem that you are forgetting that there happens to be quite a few interesting threads here that are actually not comedy, but discussions about newsworthy items of interest. Not interested? Don't let the door hit you in the ass.
By the by, anyone that assumed Reeshy wasn't facitious should really just shoot themselves in their empty worthless skulls.
! Silera, that is uncalled for, and unduly harsh. I will give you the opportunity to apologize.
...until someone 1) wants to and 2) has the power to stop Hamas, there will be no peace in Israel. Why, do you disagree?
You raise an interesting point, Best. Even thought the UN and the world would apply the double-standard and disallow it, it is evident that the Israelis, all the while being the good guys and giving concessions every step of the way for 50 years, should be better off dispensing with diplomacy and redoubling their efforts in killing off Hamas and their ilk.
Then prepare to be sorely disappointed.
I am sure you misunderstood me, NYDragon.
I guess the shooting of people throwing rocks and the leveling of people's homes with bulldozers does not equal terrorism anymore? Let's be fair here. Both sides are equally to blame for the violence.
Tazz - it is very good you raised this, because this is a common misconception out there that people tend to suffer from when just dealing with a small and rudimentary knowledge of the facts.
"People throwing rocks" sounds like this does not have even the potential of causing any damage. We imagine 5 yr. olds picking up any available pebble and hurling it with all their might - not a very big threat. Now, think about it in terms of a supply of large rocks, brought to be used as ammunition, in the arms of 10, 20, 50 people at a time. And imagine weapons designed to aim these rocks. The damage caused to the human body would surprise you. People have lost eyes, teeth, and parts of noses and ears. There have been countless emergency plastic surgeries to deal with these casualties inflicted by rocks launched at close range. Then mayor Ed Koch on a vist to Israel in the 80's was struck on the forehead by such a rock, and required an hour-long surgery and many stitches to repair the wound.

Indeed, "Let's be fair here". In NY right this minute, there are hundreds if not thousands of people sitting in prison because they were convicted of assault. They commited a crime by assaulting another human. And they were sentenced to punishment for that crime. We do not then say "oh, how bad we are for sentencing them to punishment for their crime", because that would be just silly.

The Arabs are to blame for the violence.

Reeshy's callous comment of "Let the killing begin!!! Let loose the Dogs of War!!!" is not a joking matter. It is sad that some of us here - instead of taking him to task - automatically choose to be apologists for it. I think that is wrong, I think that Reeshy is probably a decent person, but misspoke here, and I hope no one here feels that killing and war should be advocated.

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<marquee behavior=alternate><Color="brown" bold>Catch as catch
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silera

09-09-2003, 05:18 AM

nd comments like that sure make it seem that you are forgetting that there happens to be quite a few interesting threads here that are actually not comedy, but discussions about newsworthy items of interest. Not interested? Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

Again, you are choosing to call someone to task for a quite obvious light hearted post in a discussion that is not intended to be humorous. Reminds you of something? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? What show do we all purport to be fans of does this on a regular basis? I WONDER??

Idiot.

Furthermore, your selective views on this topic are obviously one sided and contribute to the reason why that whole region is one big clusterfuck. In any conflict, one party is never solely at fault. Period.

By the way, people are convicted of crimes after a "fair trial" and the death penalty isn't at the option of police officers.

Yerdaddy did a wonderful job of showing you, (yes you bunny), all of the evidence that proves you wrong. You choose to believe that "The Arabs are to blame for the violence." That is a belief and not a fact and that belief is why the violence will never end.

<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif
AND WHAT?</center>

This message was edited by silera on 9-9-03 @ 9:58 AM

neoprosto

09-09-2003, 05:43 AM

Again, you are choosing to call someone to task for a quite obvious light hearted post in a discussion that is not intended to be humorous.
Sorry, but you cannot convince me that these words of yours: Let the killing begin!!! Let loose the Dogs of War!!! should simply be dismissed as a "lighthearted" joke. If you had ever been to 'nam, you would have a different perspective on being so flippant.
Idiot.
Silera: I did not call you names, man - why are you getting like this?
In any conflict, one party is never solely at fault. Period.
No one said that the Israelis did not make their share of mistakes. But when it comes to the killing and violence and terrorism, the Arabs are solely "at fault", as you say.
By the way, people are convicted of crimes after a "fair trial" and the death penalty isn't at the option of police officers.
Moving away from splitting hairs here, the fact is that when Israel defends itself and its people, the Arabs get punished in a suitable way. And that is great.
Yerdaddy did a wonderful job of showing you, (yes you bunny), all of the evidence that proves you wrong. You choose to believe that "The Arabs are to blame for the violence." That is a belief and not a fact and that belief is why the violence will never end.
Whoever started this "bunny" stuff, thanks a lot, can we finish it now? Meanwhile, it is a belief that is based on cold hard facts - also known as REAL evidence, if you will, and not only is it my belief, it is the belief of the majority of the world - sorry to burst your bubble, but the Arabs prove this themselves every time they go after innocent people and kill them. I am sure that you don't want to go on record as being on the side of the Arabs, you just want to make sure that you are being "fair", but you surely come to the same conclusion.

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silera

09-09-2003, 05:57 AM

neoprosto

09-09-2003, 06:41 AM

You are obviously one of those people that refuses to accept when he is wrong on some things because he feels that it will negate his entire argument. If you only realized that acknowledging where you were mistaken would make you seem like a reasonable and intelligent person.

Reeshy was kidding. You know it. I know it. Everyone knew it

Sorry, but no, it just doesn't cut it to say that he was "kidding", and not everyone knew it, because I didn't, nor did a few others here. Does it bother you that I have an opinion that "kidding" about Arabs letting loose and killing more Jews is a wrong thing to do?

and Nam had nothing to do with it you drama queen.

Nothing "dramatic" about it. I was just giving an analogy to help Reeshy see that a person who is exposed to actual war is less inclined to make "light hearted" jokes about it. Especially when the Arabs naturally kill Jews as often as you tie your shoes.

Fact is, Abbas was a nobody to start with. The replacement will also be a nobody. Arafat and others like him call the shots, literally. And there is no shortage of Arabs who want to strap on the bomb (oh, and be sure to include the nails and other shrapnel to inflict maximum injuries to those innocents who may escape death), and put on the garb of a Jew, and mingle in with the crowd and get on a bus and kill more Jews.

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Se7en

09-09-2003, 06:49 AM

Can't sleep.

Reeshy'll eat me.

Can't sleep.

Reeshy'll eat me.

And if you die before you wake BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!

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PutYourAppleOn

09-09-2003, 07:18 AM

Arabs naturally kill Jews as often as you tie your shoes.

Thank you Dr. Seuss

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This message was edited by PutYourAppleOn on 9-9-03 @ 11:20 AM

IrishAlkey

09-09-2003, 07:25 AM

I will not kill a gook in Nam
I could not, would not with a bomb
But I'll take taxes from your mom
To send troops, more troops for Sadaam

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silera

09-09-2003, 09:41 AM

Star light, star bright
All the Arabs want to fight
America should with all its might
Just Dr0p the bomb and set things right.

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AND WHAT?</center>

Tazz

09-09-2003, 12:24 PM

I know the area is very religiously important historically.

However, the Israelites had left for years, and the Arabs took over.

Think about it this way:

My house was built in 1959. Four families have lived there since then. However, they sold (Israelites), and a new family moved in (Palestinians). We have lived there for 23 years now. If one of the former owners decided that it was their land, and tried to forcefully move back in, I think I would be pissed too.

This is exactly what happened there. The Arabs had been there for years before the current Israel was formed after WWII.

The Israelis just have to give up some land to the Palestinians, but they refuse. They are not innocent here.

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This message was edited by Tazz on 9-9-03 @ 4:26 PM

reeshy

09-09-2003, 01:47 PM

I was just giving an analogy to help Reeshy see that a person who is exposed to actual war is less inclined to make "light hearted" jokes about it.

Hey Bunny,
I don't need any help from an idiot like you. If you spend a little more time reading the threads on this board instead of trying to dominate them with your bullshit, you wouldn't be opening your big yap and 1nserting your little foot in it.!! To presume that I know nothing of combat and violence is really overboard. You don't know everything and obviously, very little of anything. Stop presuming that you know anything about me and you'll do fine!! Until then, shut the fuck up!!!!

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Se7en

09-09-2003, 02:15 PM

The Israelis just have to give up some land to the Palestinians, but they refuse. They are not innocent here.

You make it so utterly simplistic.

There is a myth that the Palestinians had this state and the Israelis came along and kicked them out - they didn't. The Palestinians NEVER had a state. They were nothing but nomads who even the other Arabs didn't give two shits about (and they still don't, outside of the terrorism that the Palestinians can do towards the Jews).

The Israelis were given the land freely; some land expansion came after they won a war perpetrated against them (to the victor go the spoils). It's not as if they stole it.

Oh, and pardon them for not jumping at the chance of giving up land bought with Israeli blood to the one group of people on this planet who know more than anyone how to spill that blood.

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neoprosto

09-09-2003, 06:45 PM

Bravo, Se7en, for that perfectly articulated post. I could not agree with you more. Tazz has his history screwed up, unfortunately winking at the Arabs. Probably some agenda. Anyhoo - the fact is that the Jews never left Israel. There were always at least some Jews in Israel, although they were forcibly removed several times throughout history. Like they are trying to do now, in $elected locations.

Too bad for the Arabists among us - the Jews will prevail, one way or the other.

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<marquee behavior=alternate><Color="brown" bold>Catch as catch
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neoprosto

09-09-2003, 06:50 PM

I was just giving an analogy to help Reeshy see that a person who is exposed to actual war is less inclined to make "light hearted" jokes about it.

Hey Bunny, I don't need any help from an idiot like you.

You are still going on and on with your "Bunny" bs, but since you quoted me, you are obviously trying to address me and get under my skin (that part won't work, pal - sorry!). Stop calling people "idiots" if you know what's good for you - I am not here to have a playground brawl with you, Reeshy (or should I call you "Bunny" too?), you should recognize that you cannot bait me into your little fisticuffs, and besides, it is not proper to call people names here - it is insulting.

To presume that I know nothing of combat and violence is really overboard. You don't know everything and obviously, very little of anything. Stop presuming that you know anything about me and you'll do fine!!

It was an analogy, pal. Don't get all sweated up. You sound like you are 16 grams of cholesterol short of bursting an artery.

Until then, shut the ef up!!!!

That is not very nice now, is it.

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TheMojoPin

09-09-2003, 07:51 PM

Eh...not worth it.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-9-03 @ 11:56 PM

TheMojoPin

09-09-2003, 07:55 PM

Look, the Palestinians have more to answer to here than the Israelis.

But to think the Israelis are completely in the clear or 100% right is just foolish.

As in all modern political clashes, both sides have something to be called out on.

But in any debate on the issue, using blatantly agitating and instigating terms like "Arabist" is simply misguided, insulting and obviously inflammatory.

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Yerdaddy

09-09-2003, 07:55 PM

Tazz has his history screwed up, unfortunately winking at the Arabs. Probably some agenda.
This is the kind of bullshit slandering that has no place in an intelligent debate, or on this board. Hopefully the problem of it coming from a banned member will be addressed. But the tactic of accusing everyone who criticizes Israel's policies of anti-semitism or pro-arab sympathies is an insult to Jews and gentiles alike by reducing the defense of Israel to an ad hominem fallacy. It's not just because it makes the accuser look like a retarded asshole either. Jews who have suffered persecution and genocide have the meaning of their sufferings minimized by false accusations of anti-semitism as a cheap attempt to win an argument. It's a fucking disgrace that it happens at all.

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reeshy

09-10-2003, 01:06 AM

Stop calling people "idiots" if you know what's good for you

I'm out o' here!!! I just shit myself!!! I resign from the board effective immediately!!! Oh, crap!!!!Sorry, sorry, sorry!!!!!!

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Bestinshow

09-10-2003, 05:30 AM

Obviously no one is immune from mistakes and to say Israel is perfect in their strategies and judgement would be naive. Obviously, some situations could have been handled better. But I find it scary and disconcerting that several board members consider this a "matter of opinion" and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict nothing more than a "two sided circle of escalating violence". What many seem to conveniently overlook is that Israel would make concessions and stop the conflict tomorrow in exchange for peace. Anyone who feels the Palestinians would do the same is naive and fool hardy.

Oh, and this incessant gang banging of certain board members, whether you like their posts or not, is getting boring and tiresome.

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TheMojoPin

09-10-2003, 08:04 AM

But I find it scary and disconcerting that several board members consider this a "matter of opinion" and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict nothing more than a "two sided circle of escalating violence".

Why the hell is it "scary"?

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extracheese

09-10-2003, 08:23 AM

lets get some facts into this discussion , the opinions are sickening.

click here for link to article (http://www.aish.com/SSI/articleToPrint.asp?PageURL=/jewishissues/middleeast/What_Occupation$.xml&torahportion=notparshapage&author=Professor+Efraim+Karsh&teaser=Few+subjects+have+been+falsified+so+thoroug hly+as+the+recent+history+of+the+West+Bank+and+Gaz a%2E)

Tazz

09-10-2003, 08:27 AM

Palestinian-Israeli conflict nothing more than a "two sided circle of escalating violence"

But that is exactly what it is. Eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye to infinity.

<img src=http://tazz1376.homestead.com/files/homersig.gif>

extracheese

09-10-2003, 08:28 AM

History in a Nutshell

1917 - Balfour Declaration - After the fall of the Ottoman Empire, British Foreign Secretary Lord Balfour declares: "His Majesty's Government views with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people."

1922 - British Mandate - After World War One, the League of Nations affirms the British Mandate to create two distinct entities in the territory both east and west of the Jordan River, one Arab and one Jewish. 78 percent of the original Mandate is then lopped off to create the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, which is closed to Jewish settlement.

1929 - Arab riots - Arabs protest the growing Jewish presence in Palestine, murdering 133 Jews in Hebron and elsewhere, and pressuring the British to impose restrictions on Jewish prayer at the Western Wall.

1937 - Peel Commission - The British Peel Commission recommends that all the future Jewish state be confined to a tiny sliver of land along the Mediterranean coast and a small piece abutting the Sea of Galilee.

1939 - Immigration Quotas - In order to appease the Arabs, a British "White Paper" severely restricts Jewish immigration to the Holy Land to a token number for five years, even to the point of turning away boatloads of Jews fleeing Hitler.

1947 - U.N. Partition Plan - On November 29, 1947, the U.N. authorizes Resolution 181, calling for separate Arab and Jewish states west of the Jordan River. The plan is accepted by Israel, but rejected by the Arab League.

1948 - War of Independence - On May 15, 1948, following Ben-Gurion's Declaration of Independence, the armies of five Arab states join local Arab militias to invade Israel, with the goal of aborting the newly-declared state. Jordan conquers and annexes the "West Bank" (the lands heretofore called "Judea and Samaria" on all British mandate maps), expelling all Jews from the Old City of Jerusalem, and destroying 57 synagogues and Mount of Olives tombstones. One percent of the Israeli Jewish population is killed in the war.

1949 - Refugee Issue - In the ensuing war, approximately 650,000 Arabs flee Israel as refugees. In the war's aftermath, approximately 600,000 Jewish refugees flee from Arab countries, when massacres, arrests, and ostracism made life impossible. The Jewish refugees are integrated into Israeli life; the Arab refugees are placed in squalid camps by their Arab hosts, supported by the UNWRA.

1956 - Suez War - After Egypt blockades Israel's shipping and Nasser assumes command of the Syrian and Jordanian armies, Israel attacks Egypt and captures the Gaza Strip and much of the Sinai. International pressure forces Israel to withdraw without obtaining any concessions.

1964 - Palestine Liberation Organization - While Jordan and Egypt hold the "territories," the PLO forms with the goal of annihilating the State of Israel through violence and terror. In the ensuing years, a rash of airplane hijackings, bombings and the Munich Olympic Massacre bring the Palestinians media attention.

1967 - Six Day War - Egyptian President Nasser closes the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, and Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad declares that "the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." Israel responds with a pre-emptive strike and captures the Golan Heights, West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Sinai Peninsula. Israel immediately offers to return the conquered land in exchange for peace. Meeting in Khartoum, the Arab League issues the infamous three noes: "No peace with Israel. No negotiations with Israel. No recognition of Israel."

1973 - Yom Kippur War - On the holiest day of the Jewish year, Egypt and Syria launch a surprise attack. In the Golan, 180 Israeli tanks face an onslaught of 1,400 Syrian tanks. Along the Suez Canal, 500 Israeli soldiers are attacked by 80,000 Egyptians. Israel suffers heavy casualties, but wins the war.

1978 - Camp David Accords - Egyptian President Anwar Sadat meets with Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin to negotiate a settlement. Israel agrees to return the entire Sinai Peninsula - constituti

Meatball

09-10-2003, 08:35 AM

not true tazz, that may be the way you take in your nightly news, where they report on a bus full of israeli civilains getting blown up, followed by an israeli airstrike to take out a terrorist leader...but that is simplistic.
Most intelligent people who have studied this conflict know that Israel has made many offers and consessions to apease the Pals and make peace..always rejected by the Palestinains. The Israeli army has accidently killed civilains in its attempts to take out Terrorist leaders..that is unavoidable and has always occured around the globe - US also kills civilans BY accidnet in its war with AL QUEDA and IRAQ. How cant you see this distinction?? Do Buses accross Manhattan have to blow up before you can say " ohhhh NOW i see what they have been saying all these years" ??

99% of Israelis want peace willing to give up land to do it. The Pals only want peace if it means they get the whole country and jews are 'outa there'.

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This message was edited by Meatball on 9-10-03 @ 12:40 PM

A.J.

09-10-2003, 08:50 AM

Eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye to infinity.

"Not with this 'Palestinian thing' that's been going on for 5,000 years!"

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Tazz

09-10-2003, 08:58 AM

Edit: Deleted because it is impossible to have a mature argument with people who are racist against all Arabs, not just the terrorists.

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This message was edited by Tazz on 9-10-03 @ 1:10 PM

IrishAlkey

09-10-2003, 09:17 AM

Discussions are fun.

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Bestinshow

09-10-2003, 09:22 AM

Why the hell is it "scary"?

Edit: De1eted because it is impossible to have a mature argument with people who are racist against all Arabs, not just the terrorists.

Like I said. Scary.

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TheMojoPin

09-10-2003, 10:46 AM

8000 BC: Permanent agricultural settlements in Jericho.
2500 BC: Settlement of the Canaanites.
1250 BC: Israelite conquest of Canaan.
965-928 BC: Reign of King Solomon.
721 BC: Assyrian conquest of Israel.
586 BC: Judah defeated by Babylonians.
539 BC: Persians conquer Babylonia.
333 BC: Alexander's conquest of Persia brings Greek rule.
165 BC: Revolt of the Maccabees.
63 BC: Palestine incorporated into Roman Empire.
70 AD: Destruction of Jerusalem Temple by Romans.
135: Bar Kokhba revolt suppressed.
330: Palestine under Byzantine rule (to 638).
638: Muslims capture Palestine from Byzantines.
1099: Jerusalem under Crusader control (to 1187).
1291: Mamelukes capture final Crusader strongholds Acre and Caesarea.
1516: Ottomans capture Palestine (to 1917).
1776-1804: Ahmad Pasha Al Jazzar appointed Ottoman ruler of Acre; builds port, monopolizes trade.
1799: Napoleon attacks Acre; repulsed by Al Jazzar.
1832: Muhammad Ali Pasha of Egypt occupies Palestine (to 1840).
1840: Lord Palmerston advocates Jewish immigration to Palestine.
1869: Suez Canal opened.
1878: First Zionist settlement at Petach Tiqwa.
1882-1903: First wave of 25,000 Zionist immigrants.
1906-14: Second wave of 40,000 Zionist immigrants.
1909: Tel Aviv founded north of Jaffa.
1914: World War I starts; Ottoman Empire joins war on side of Germany, and attacks Russia.
1916: Sykes-Picot Agreement secretly divides Ottoman Empire.
1917: Balfour Declaration pledges UK support for "a Jewish national home in Palestine."
1918: Palestine occupied by UK forces under General Allenby; World War I ends.
1919-23: Third wave of over 35,000 Zionist immigrants.
1920: League of Nations mandates Palestine and Mesopotamia to UK.
1921: UK appoints Haj Amin al-Husseini as Mufti of Jerusalem
1922: UK excludes Transjordan from Jewish immigration; first UK census of Palestine shows 78% Muslim Arab, 11% Jewish, 9.6% Christian Arab.
1924-28: Fourth wave of 67,000 Zionist immigrants, raising Jewish population to 16%.
1929-39: Fifth wave of over 250,000 Zionist immigrants, raising Jewish population to 30%.
1936-39: Arab rebellion in Palestine.
1939-45: World War II in Europe.
1947: UN adopts plan to partition Palestine into two states; Israel declares independence, fights war against Arab forces.

WHO owns this land again?

Seems both sides have a pretty legitimate claim. And let's clear up ANOTHER thing...nobody was there "first". Arabs and Jews have been both living there for thousands of years. Nobody ever really "left". Both Palestine and Israle have existed in one form or another in the disputed lands before the current crisis. So again, I ask why one side, EITHER side, should get peferential treatment in this issue?

Look, I have no opinion on Israel. It's just another country, like any other world, whose actions and decisions I can observe, weigh and decide upon. I don't understand the idea that you "can't talk against Israel" or that "Israel is always right". It's just another country. I don't think they're a particuarly valuable ally. Countries like France and Germany supposedly "defy" us over the Iraq issue and are villainized, but Israel, who constantly goes against our policy requests, is spared such criticism.

Israel is a political entity, just like any other country. It's not any worse to criticize them over any other country. The unspoken implication here is that if you disagree with Israel's political policies you are somehow THIS close to being anti-semitic or supportive of terrorists. How is this so? I don't support the terrorist actions of Yassir Arafat, Hamas or other Palestinian terrorist groups in any way, shape or form. I think they're horriffic, criminal and completely detrimental to any type of peace process in the region.

But at the same time, I refuse to condemn the entire Palestinian people, because, quite frankly, that's stupid and small-minded. The Palestinians, other Arabs, Christians and Jews lived together in relative "peace" (It wasn't

Bestinshow

09-10-2003, 11:45 AM

Look, I have no opinion on Israel. It's just another country, like any other world, whose actions and decisions I can observe, weigh and decide upon. I don't understand the idea that you "can't talk against Israel" or that "Israel is always right".

I can't see how you can confuse condemning a movement that uses targeting civilians as a primary strategy with saying Israel is always right.

It's just another country. I don't think they're a particuarly valuable ally. Countries like France and Germany supposedly "defy" us over the Iraq issue and are villainized, but Israel, who constantly goes against our policy requests, is spared such criticism.

And how do you define a "valuable" ally. And I suppose if a group was blowing up buses and catering halls in France and Germany you would expect them to settle it with diplomacy.

So again, I ask why one side, EITHER side, should get peferential treatment in this issue?

I don't consider condemning terrorism as preferential treatment. Or do you not consider the
attacks on Israel terrorism? And enough of the bullshit of retaliatory strikes being terrorism. I hope you can distinguish the difference.

Israel is a political entity, just like any other country. It's not any worse to criticize them over any other country. The unspoken implication here is that if you disagree with Israel's political policies you are somehow THIS close to being anti-semitic or supportive of terrorists.

Where are all these accusations of antisemitism? I read more accusations about these accusations than the accusations themselves. There is no implication whatsoever about criticizing Israeli policies but to tell me this is a two sided conflict with neither more at fault than the other is like saying our fight with Al queda was a two sided conflict. And yes, I consider that supportive of terrorists. Israel is being attacked by terrorists on an almost daily basis as we were on 9/11.

But at the same time, I refuse to condemn the entire Palestinian people, because, quite frankly, that's stupid and small-minded.

And who the hell is condemning the entire Palestinian people. Why is an attack against Hamas and other Palestinian fundamentalists considered being anti-Palestinian.

So what happened? The formation of Israel was backed by most of the major western world powers and the UN. For better or for worse, it is legitimate, and I see no problem with Israle existing as its own nation. I just can't for an instant see how in those 30 years something that was workable for almost a thousand years goes all to shit. And how one side is instantly "hero-ized" and the other "villain-ized".

You tell me what happened . And there you go with your blanket statements again. Who is villainizing a whole people? And Israel isnt a hero, they are a victim. The only ones being villianized are the terrorists. All anybody wants is coexistence. That is the goal. All except hamas.

Maybe it's because I live and love in a country that was founded on the premise of, "if you're in a situation where you're persecuted and punished for who you are, leave so you can go and be free." The Israelis seemed to have done the exact opposite of this very knowingly and very willingly. Everyone knew EXACTLY what would have happened the minute Israel was declared legitimate and independent. People have opted, CHOSEN, to be in this awful, awful situation that didn't have to exist, and as such, my sympathies are difficult to be found for either side.

Do you really want to make this statement? This is so awful I dont even know where to begin. if you're in a situation where you're persecuted and punished for who you are, leave so you can go and be free? Should we have said this to the black people in America while we had segregation? Or any other minority who screams of discrimination? Thats not the country I live in. And where do you want them to go? They were given Israel becaus

TheMojoPin

09-10-2003, 12:48 PM

You misconstrued almost everything I said it what seems to be almost a desperate attempt to create an argument. I went out of my way to state why I HAVEN'T picked a side in this conflict, and yet you went out of yours to try and assign me one. I'll just stick to breaking about your final, most inflammatory paragraph.

Do you really want to make this statement? This is so awful I dont even know where to begin.

Yes, I do, and I did, even though I knew it would be taken the wrong way almost instantly. The continued statement is that the Jews created Israel to FLEE unjust prosecution and violence (Makes sense), so they create a country in the one place where outside of ancient Egypt, the Spanish Inquisition and Nazi Germany where they've ended up being persecuted, harmed and killed the most out of any other time or place in history (Makes NO sense, at least not to me.) From a LOGICAL standpoint it makes zero sense. It's done, it can't be changed, I just don't understand how that conclusion was come to in the first place. Why didn't they come to America? How is here any less of a "home" than some sandy country surrounded by people who hate you that you've never been to before? I'm asking questons, not demanding punishment. I'm honestly curious. Settle down.

if you're in a situation where you're persecuted and punished for who you are, leave so you can go and be free?

I'm not trying to be a smartass, but I have no clue what you just said here.

Should we have said this to the black people in America while we had segregation? Or any other minority who screams of discrimination?

I was counting the seconds until this comparison came up, even though it's blatantly wrong. Two different situations. The Jews were not taken from around the world and forced to live in Israel. They willingly formed a country there admidst a storm of local protest and threats knowing full well the political climate they were walking into. It wasn't a sudden suprise, like, "whoa, HEY! These people don't want the country of Israel here! And they're willing to FIGHT over it! Where did THIS come from?!?" I'm not saying that Israel should be removed or isn't a legitimate country. It shouldn't and it is. It has every right to exist and the people there have every right to defend themselves. I just don't support MY country supporting them constantly and over nearly every issue or me MYSELF being assumed-forced into agreeing with Israel because they're "on our side". They weren't innocent lambs naievly wandering into an unknown situation. It was VERY clear what kind of political atmosphere they were entering, and the continued policies of most of the Israeli governments in the last 25 years (Excepting Rabin) has basically demonstrated nothing but disinterest in protecting the lives of its citizens to the fullest for the sake of saving what amounts no more to political pride. THAT is why I am critical of Israel's latest GOVERNMENTS, NOT the people or the country itself. Based on what history has presented me, it simply seems that the formation of Israel was perhaps not the best planned or well-thought out of plans, and people on all sides are paying for it today. How is this "awful"? I'm just making a decision based on what history and current politics have shown me. Pardon me for having a fucking opinion and not being the uncaring monster you're so desperately trying to paint me as.

Thats not the country I live in. And where do you want them to go? They were given Israel because they were chased half accross the world. The UN even ratified it.

I never even HINTED that they should leave, move, or be removed in any way, shape or form. You're reading what you want to think I wrote. Sorry, but I don't feel that way. Hate to burst your bubble.

Yet you have no sympathy for them because they choose to be in this awful situation. Sounds like you do have an opinion about Israel.

Towards the latter statement, to a degree, no, I don't, an

neoprosto

09-10-2003, 08:08 PM

I want to say, I read every word you guys wrote.

The people that say that we cannot have intelligent discussions are full of it. Some people are simply afraid of the 1st amendment and actually seeing it in action. Instead of attacking the free exchange of ideas and opinions by trying to censor individual viewpoints, observe the discussion today.

If anyone here is interested as I am in this topic, and has read the flow of conversation between a few people here as I have, it is clear that it is a productive thing, and - yes - we are able to participate in a rational non-sensational manner.

The posts from today have gotten a bit wordy, so I would just like to weigh in so you know where I stand. First - I would just like to say that the word "Arabists" was not used as an insult, it was used rather to describe persons as having an allegience or common viewpoint with the Arabs.

On this issue, I agree with most of what BestinShow has said, as well as the brief comments by meatball, and some of what Se7en has said. Although I do not have any intentions of creating any type of personal argument, and I do not want to hurt anyones feelings, I disagree with TheMojoPin on this issue. Please keep in mind that does not mean I am "against" him as a person - I am simply stating that I feel he is wrong on this topic. I also disagree with the opinions as stated on this issue by: silera, reeshy, and yerdaddy. Again, I do not want to come across as instigating bad feelings - I mean simply to show where I stand on the issues raised in this thread.

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TheMojoPin

09-10-2003, 08:39 PM

Fair enough.

Thumbs up for opinions.

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shamus mcfitzy

09-10-2003, 09:45 PM

Do you really want to make this statement? This is so awful I dont even know where to begin. if you're in a situation where you're persecuted and punished for who you are, leave so you can go and be free? Should we have said this to the black people in America while we had segregation? Or any other minority who screams of discrimination? Thats not the country I live in.

Well in that situation, blacks would have been funded by let's say, the USSR, and we would be a country with no chance of ever holding black people segregated anyway. So that seems a bit forced, don't you?

reeshy

09-11-2003, 12:05 AM

I also disagree with the opinions as stated on this issue by: silera, reeshy, and yerdaddy

I only wrote one thing about the dogs of war. What I thought I meant by that was that more violence was going to erupt from the PM's resignation-not that I condone violence. But I guess I am mistaken. Could you please tell me what my opinion is? I'm not sure what it is!! You are the only one that seems to know. Please tell me how to think on this and all other matters!!!
So I guess that since you disagree with me...that you DO condone the violence that is occuring in the Middle East!! Am I wrong or right? Please let me know.

Thank you!!

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This message was edited by reeshy on 9-11-03 @ 4:11 AM

Tazz

09-11-2003, 04:33 AM

Bestinshow

09-11-2003, 05:36 AM

I missed this before. Not to nitpick, but.....

where they report on a bus full of israeli civilains getting blown up

From Here (http://www.jafi.org.il/education/downloads/english4.pdf)

The law in Israel requires every citizen over the age of 18 years to be drafted into mandatory
service in the Israel Defense Forces.

This message was edited by Tazz on 9-11-03 @ 8:34 AM

Well in that situation, blacks would have been funded by let's say, the USSR, and we would be a country with no chance of ever holding black people segregated anyway. So that seems a bit forced, don't you?

Please someone tell me we are on Earth 2

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Se7en

09-11-2003, 06:41 AM

Look, the Palestinians have more to answer to here than the Israelis.

But to think the Israelis are completely in the clear or 100% right is just foolish.

I agree.

Israel is only about 99% in the clear.

But shame on them for that 1%. Bastards.

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Tazz

09-11-2003, 07:00 AM

Israel is only about 99% in the clear.

Whatever. Let's do some research and see who struck first after the "Road Map to Peace" was accepted by both sides:

From USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-06-29-chrono_x.htm)

June 24, 2002: Siding with Sharon, President Bush calls on Palestinians to replace Yasser Arafat as the Palestinian leader.

Jan. 28, 2003: Sharon re-elected in landslide.

April 30, 2003: Mahmoud Abbas takes office as Palestinian prime minister.

May 1, 2003: "Road map" to peace presented to both sides; Palestinians immediately accept it.

May 25, 2003: Israel's government conditionally accepts the peace plan.

June 4, 2003: Abbas, Sharon meet President Bush at summit in Aqaba, Jordan, formally launching the "road map."

June 10, 2003: Israeli helicopters fire missiles at Gaza car in failed attempt to assassinated Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi.

June 17, 2003: Hamas suicide bomber blows up Jerusalem bus, killing 17 passengers and bystanders.

June 29, 2003: Arafat's Fatah declares six-month truce and Hamas and Islamic Jihad announce three-month cease-fire to stop attacks against Israelis.

In 33 months of fighting, 2,414 people have been killed on the Palestinian side and 806 on the Israeli side.

June 4, 2003: Abbas, Sharon meet President Bush at summit in Aqaba, Jordan, formally launching the "road map."

June 10, 2003: Israeli helicopters fire missiles at Gaza car in failed attempt to assassinated Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi.

Six days. They couldn't hold peace for six days. Why attempt to kill the guy when they had just agreed to try this peace plan?

It also appears that the Israelis have killed 3 times as many people as the Palestinians. You're telling me all 2,400 of them were terrorists?

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neoprosto

09-11-2003, 08:06 AM

Look, the Palestinians have more to answer to here than the Israelis. But to think the Israelis are completely in the clear or 100% right is just foolish.

I agree.

Israel is only about 99% in the clear.

But shame on them for that 1%. Bastards.

LOL!!!

Bravo Se7en - you hit the nail right on the head.

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Bestinshow

09-11-2003, 09:35 AM

June 10, 2003: Israeli helicopters fire missiles at Gaza car in failed attempt to assassinated Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi.

June 17, 2003: Hamas suicide bomber blows up Jerusalem bus, killing 17 passengers and bystanders.

June 29, 2003: Arafat's Fatah declares six-month truce and Hamas and Islamic Jihad announce three-month cease-fire to stop attacks against Israelis.

In 33 months of fighting, 2,414 people have been killed on the Palestinian side and 806 on the Israeli side.

Six days. They couldn't hold peace for six days. Why attempt to kill the guy when they had just agreed to try this peace plan?

It also appears that the Israelis have killed 3 times as many people as the Palestinians. You're telling me all 2,400 of them were terrorists?

Lets see what came first, June 10 or June 29? Golly gee, it seems that this attack on a Hamas terrorist( which evidently you have a problem with) ocurred 19 days before the ceasefire.But I guess you wanted them to stop hunting terrorists immediately, without any guarantees from Hamas. When you do your research, maybe you should research the roadmap they agreed to on June 4 which included stopping Hamas. And you dont think most of the 2400 were terrorists? I guess Israel is attacking shopping centers and catering halls and buses. Dont make statements based on your distorted views. I am going to go out on a limb here. This has nothing to do with mature conversation as you previously stated.

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Se7en

09-11-2003, 09:43 AM

Sweaty News Upd@te:

From CNN.com -

BREAKING NEWS Israel's security Cabinet decides in principle to expel Yasser Arafat, but puts off taking immediate action, Israeli TV reports. Details soon.

NICE.

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Tazz

09-11-2003, 09:46 AM

May 1, 2003: "Road map" to peace presented to both sides; Palestinians immediately accept it.

May 25, 2003: Israel's government conditionally accepts the peace plan.

June 4, 2003: Abbas, Sharon meet President Bush at summit in Aqaba, Jordan, formally launching the "road map."

Dont make statements based on your distorted views.

What you call distorted, I call realistic. I could ask you not to make statements based on your racism against the Palestinians, but I won't.

<img src=http://tazz1376.homestead.com/files/homersig.gif>

Tazz

09-11-2003, 09:48 AM

Sweaty News Upd@te:

From CNN.com -

BREAKING NEWS Israel's security Cabinet decides in principle to expel Yasser Arafat, but puts off taking immediate action, Israeli TV reports. Details soon.

NICE.

Oh yea, that's gonna make the situation SOOOO much better. Israel doesn't see the negative ramifications of that?

<img src=http://tazz1376.homestead.com/files/homersig.gif>

Se7en

09-11-2003, 09:58 AM

It's LONG past due to get rid of him.

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Tazz

09-11-2003, 10:03 AM

I can't argue with that.

But I see retaliatory violence in the future. They need to think about that. If he stays, there will stil be violence, but I would venture to guess not as much.

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TheMojoPin

09-11-2003, 10:19 AM

Bravo Se7en - you hit the nail right on the head.

It strikes me as humorous that the average Israeli would disagree with most of the backseat policy-makers here.

Ah, but what do I know? I've only been there and stuff. FEH!!!

Look, here's the shitty, shitty truth...Israel being the "good, mature child" in this mess is going to have to concede the most if they want anything even close to a lasting peace. It sucks, but sometimes that's what goes with the territory of being the biggest and the best on the block. Otherwise they'd have to wipe out every Palestinian on the planet, which would just inspire OTHER groups to rise up in terrorism. You reach a point where you simply can no longer "win" against terror with conventional means, and Israel has pretty much reached that point. They're probably the finest example of terror-battling on the planet, and even they have clearly reached a plateau where no amount of carefully planned and executed strikes will deter a nut with a bomb and a plan. At some point the boys in charge need to figure out what's more important...fruitless eye-for-an-eye conlfict or finally sucking it up to ultimately save lives in the future. What's more valuable? Politcal face or less dead children?

I'm not saying it's fair, but until the Palestinians get better leaders, the Israelis are the best bet for flexibility. It sucks that they need to "roll over", but at what point does the body count become too much? NEVER? I don't know what they'd have to do, but there's gotta be a better way than what's going on now.

On a side note...it's a given that the majority of Palestinian methods are totally wrong and criminal...but beyond the actual attacks, do the people here who so readily dismiss them think that they have ANY legitimate grievances? Yes, there's plenty of baseless accusations, but at some point it becomes unavoidable that they've been treated pretty shittily in the last 50 years. This does NOT excuse any terrorist strikes EVER, but hell, even more than 50% of Israel believes what I just said. Why the fuck are WE supposed to be so hardline?

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The future teaches you to be alone
The present to be afraid and cold
So if I can shoot rabbits
Then I can shoot fascists

Bullets for your brain today
But we'll forget it all again
Monuments put from pen to paper
Turns me into a gutless wonder

And if you tolerate this
Then your children will be next
And if you tolerate this
Then your children will be next
Will be next
Will be next
Will be next

Gravity keeps my head down
Or is it maybe shame
At being so young and being so vain

Holes in your head today
But I'm a pacifist
I've walked La Ramblas
But not with real intent

And if you tolerate this
Then your children will be next
And if you tolerate this
Then your children will be next
Will be next
Will be next
Will be next
Will be next

And on the street tonight an old man plays
With newspaper cuttings of his glory days

And if you tolerate this
Then your children will be next
And if you tolerate this
Then your children will be next
Will be next
Will be next
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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-11-03 @ 2:32 PM

Bestinshow

09-11-2003, 10:24 AM

What you call distorted, I call realistic. I could ask you not to make statements based on your racism against the Palestinians, but I won't.

What the F dont you understand? The roadmap said nothing about an Israeli ceasefire. In fact, one of the requirements of the roadmap was to disable Hamas and other terrorist groups. But you dont confuse yourself with the facts , you let your antisemitism lead you. And thank you, I can now finally label you for the antisemetic that you are, which I bit my tongue from saying until now because I didnt want to see people crying like they always do when someone as yourself is pointed out for their hatred.

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Tazz

09-11-2003, 10:35 AM

What the F dont you understand? The roadmap said nothing about an Israeli ceasefire.

I believe I was stating that Israel started the round of violence that began after the "Road Map" was agreed to. They couldn't wait to see if it would work before they started attacking Palestinians (terror groups or not, they are still Palestinians) again.

you let your antisemitism lead you

Whoa. I have never claimed to hate Jews, ever. Nothign i have said even implied that. You are obviously racist against Arabs, and I only could tell that because you claim that all 2,400 of their dead were terrorists. That's not stereotyping or anything.

Besides, what the fuck does that have to do with my opinions on needless violence that is caused BY BOTH SIDES over a shitty piece of desert.

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Se7en

09-11-2003, 10:43 AM

Ah, but what do I know? I've only been there and stuff. FEH!!!

I hear the Dead Sea is nice this time of year.

It sucks that they need to "roll over", but at what point does the body count become too much? NEVER?

I don't know. Maybe never.

If I was Jewish - and an Israeli at that - I know I'd be bitter and reluctant to capitulate towards a group of people that wishes to see my race wiped off the face of the planet.

Yes, there's plenty of baseless accusations, but at some point it becomes unavoidable that they've been treated pretty shittily in the last 50 years. This does NOT excuse any terrorist strikes EVER, but hell, even more than 50% of Israel believes what I just said. Why the fuck are WE supposed to be so hardline?

They've been treated shittily by EVERYONE in the Arab world.

And you cannot divorce their treatment from the fact that, in many ways, they've brought much of the bad shit that's happened to them down on themselves.

What do you mean by "WE"? America? I'm not entirely sure; probably because we've never approved of the Palestinian's terrorist activities, and perhaps there's still some lingering guilt towards the Jews for our inaction in WW2.

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TheMojoPin

09-11-2003, 10:54 AM

If I was Jewish - and an Israeli at that - I know I'd be bitter and reluctant to capitulate towards a group of people that wishes to see my race wiped off the face of the planet.

But it doesn't have to be capitulation.

The key is that Arafat needs to be gone, YESTERDAY. Until then, no legitimate peace effort can be established. But once that happens...polls in Israel constantly show that over half of the population prefers some sort of concession on Israel's part over the current courses of action. There's got to be some kind of middle grounds, or steps for peace...none of this is going to be instantaneous. Expecting all or nothing from either side right away just isn't realistic. It's going to be slow-going and people WILL still die...but if it eventually leads to LESS people dying, isn't it more worth it than what's going on now?

I just don't see it as capitulating. I would just see it as Israel being the bigger, better, wiser party. It just seems like so much of the scrapped peace efforts come back to being trashed over nothing more than political pride and arrogance on either or both sides.

And despite all the chaos, I loved my two trips to Israel. It's a beautiful country, especially out from the cities. My opinions on the Palestinians came from when on the second trip I went with my friends Noam and Gil through a Palestinian work "camp"...basically a shantytown that was kept as close as possible to the cities where the Palestinians worked. It was moved constantly every few months, and was just generally an awful place and way to live. Yes, you had assholes there who wanted nothing more than what just amounted to a war with Israel...but the majority were just people who wanted to work and be able to live SOMEWHERE stable. Before that I just assumed all the Palestinians wanted Israel destroyed and were essentially all terrorists. I realized that there were innocent people on both sides now getting caught in all the violence and madness, and that really made me slide to the middle on this issue, politically.

It just frustrates me that innocent people on both sides are getting killed because of the actions of dicks who claim to have the best interests of the people they're "fighting for" at heart, and all they do is cause pain, death, suffering and misery to everyone they encounter.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-11-03 @ 3:00 PM

Bestinshow

09-11-2003, 11:04 AM

Whoa. I have never claimed to hate Jews, ever. Nothign i have said even implied that. You are obviously racist against Arabs, and I only could tell that because you claim that all 2,400 of their dead were terrorists. That's not stereotyping or anything.

Nor did I claim any such thing about Plastinians. I find your insensitivity to terror attacks and your naivity to the magnitude of the terrorist population obviously antisemetic, but lets just stop the name calling.

I believe I was stating that Israel started the round of violence that began after the "Road Map" was agreed to. They couldn't wait to see if it would work before they started attacking Palestinians (terror groups or not, they are still Palestinians) again

Thats why I say you have a distorted outlook. The violence had never ended. Part of the requirements of the roadmap was as end to the violence and thats why the ceasefire was negotiated. The one the Palestinians broke with the bus bombs. What are you talking about see if it would work? It was just a piece of paper at inception. Than the different steps were supposed to be achieved. The end product was a Palestinian state. At that point there were no guarantees from Hamas the attacks would stop.

Besides, what the fuck does that have to do with my opinions on needless violence that is caused BY BOTH SIDES over a shitty piece of desert.

Because that shitty piece of desert as you call it is where they live.

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Tazz

09-11-2003, 11:12 AM

I find your insensitivity to terror attacks and your naivity to the magnitude of the terrorist population obviously antisemetic

It's needless because it's so easily solved. These people want this hunk of desert so much, let them have it. Israel can stop the violence by leaving.

Believe me, I want to see the violence end as much as anyone else. But the unwavering support for Israel is why most of the Arab world hates us. Quite frankly, I look out for and care about the U.S. alone, and if our favoring Israel makes us enemies, well, time to change that.

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This message was edited by Tazz on 9-11-03 @ 3:18 PM

Se7en

09-11-2003, 11:31 AM

It's needless because it's so easily solved. These people want this hunk of desert so much, let them have it. Israel can stop the violence by leaving.

Why should they have to.

I really want an answer.

And please, do not say "Because they took that land away from ____1nsert Arab people here___".

At this point, Israel has a right to be there, so why should they be forced to leave?

Mojo - okay, Israel wants some sort of concession made - perfectly understandable, as they just want the nonsense to end. But do the Palestinians want the same thing?

They don't seem to want to get rid of Arafat, for one.

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Recyclerz

09-11-2003, 11:36 AM

See Ya Arafat? (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/09/11/mideast/index.html)

It seems to me Sharon is following W's template in Iraq. While getting rid of Arafat does have some merits on its own it doesn't do anything to fix Israel's real problems: Hamas, Hezzbollah and the other Islamist terrorists who are keep the "race war" stoked, just as us taking out Saddam didn't make al-Qaeda any less of a threat. And both will prove to be messy, expensive (in shekels and lives of "our"side) and ultimately, not worth it because the troubles we started with will still be staring us in the face.

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Bestinshow

09-11-2003, 11:40 AM

I honestly believe if it was as simple as making concessions, that the violence would stop, I think the Israeli people would stampede the government and force them to do it. But I dont think anyone seriously believes it would make a difference. At least there are no indications it would.

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Tazz

09-11-2003, 11:44 AM

Why should they have to.

Because if they did, the Palestinians would be content (well, until they got bored a few years later and found something else to bitch about).

But if Israel wants to stay, make them stop complaining. Violence is a way of life there, deal with it. But remember, you go somewhere else, and the violence against you will stop (for the most part)

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neoprosto

09-11-2003, 12:07 PM

Tazz, why don't you come straight out and say how you feel, why do you hold back? If you truly believe what you have stated, why do you not say all of it out in the open.

Tell us, so that we know where you stand. Tell us - do you like Jews? Hate them? Want to see Jews live? Die? Do you love Arabs? Hate them? Want to see them blow up another Jew bus filled with Jew babies? Want to see them make peace, all nicey-nice? Do you side with the Arabs? Against them? Do you feel that there have been too many Arab deaths?

The fact is, your statements have been based in falsities, and slanted contortions of fact and history that are contrived to favor an Arab terrorist point of view. I am not making a judgement or pronouncement, I am just conveying my impression of how your comments have come across, of who you are an what you're all about.

It is not an even and esoteric battle. The Israelis have - I don't know - a more "human" way of dealing with things. You know, they tend to shy away from slaughtering innocent people in cafes, malls, for that matter, they refrain from killing little infants and their mothers, brothers, sisters, fathers, grandfathers - that sorta thing. A little too barbarian for those Israelis. They try to go after the people responsible, and kill them.

Tazz, tell us how you really feel.

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Tazz

09-11-2003, 12:18 PM

Tell us, so that we know where you stand. Tell us - do you like Jews? Hate them? Want to see Jews live? Die? Do you love Arabs? Hate them? Want to see them blow up another Jew bus filled with Jew babies? Want to see them make peace, all nicey-nice? Do you side with the Arabs? Against them? Do you feel that there have been too many Arab deaths?

To answer, in order:

Depends who it is, like with every person. Not up to me to fault someone because of religion (well, besides born-agains), no, yes, no, no, yes, sometimes, sometimes, yes.

And don't be claiming that Israel never slaughtered any innocent children. There is no need to attack a car or house with a war plane. (And to cut you off, the palaces that were bombed going after Saddam were palacial estates, not two-story residential houses.)

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Bestinshow

09-11-2003, 12:19 PM

But if Israel wants to stay, make them stop complaining. Violence is a way of life there, deal with it. But remember, you go somewhere else, and the violence against you will stop (for the most part)

Come on Taz, you know that is crazy. A whole country doesnt up and quit and say , "Move me to Arizona where it is nice and quiet". Obviously I am being facetious but this is an impossibility. Besides, you are rewarding terrorism by doing that. You admit the terrorists are wrong. There is obviously no simple solution to this mess but quitting and giving in is obviously not the solution. It is easy for you to say because you dont live there.

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TheMojoPin

09-11-2003, 02:34 PM

I honestly believe if it was as simple as making concessions

It's not. It's only a step. You can't build a peace process if you don't maintain the first step. Like I said, it's not really fair, but Israel is the side that appears to be the closest to being led by reasonable men, so the responsibility falls to them. Unless they WANT to just stick to this shitty cycle right now...

Again, what ultimately ends up being more important? Being "right" or ultimately saving lives? That should be THE issue.

I'm not going to pretend I have or know all the answers...just based on what I have in front of me, Israel seems like the best bet for taking the first step and being reliable enough government-wise to stick to it. Am I wrong in assuming this?

And Se7en, I don't buy for a second that if the Palestinian's voted out Arafat he'd go anywhere. The guy is a thug and a terrorist and didn't get to where he is without being able to hold his power by any means necessary, even against his own people.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-11-03 @ 6:38 PM

Bestinshow

09-12-2003, 05:06 AM

You can't build a peace process if you don't maintain the first step.

Yeah but I believe (my opinion of course) if just an olive branch was extended, concessions would be made. I dont think total abandonment of the settlements at first but probably eventually, as a final step. Unfortunately the first concession that is always demanded is not for the benefit of the Palestinian people, it is for the benefit of Hamas (Release of prisoners) which was the monkey wrench in anything really taking off.

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Se7en

09-12-2003, 07:29 AM

Because if they did, the Palestinians would be content (well, until they got bored a few years later and found something else to bitch about).

First off, you're working under an assumption which has no concrete basis, as the problem between the Palestinians and Israel is not so simply stated (or solved) that all will be well so long as the Israelis just up and leave.

Secondly, you still didn't answer my question. WHY should Israel have to abandon their land, their homes, etc., to make the Palestinians content? That's an extreme step to take.

But if Israel wants to stay, make them stop complaining. Violence is a way of life there, deal with it. But remember, you go somewhere else, and the violence against you will stop (for the most part)

Name me ONE country on the face of this planet where Jews have existed and NOT been persecuted for who and what they are. Name me one.

They could move to the wilds of Canada and before long the Eskimos would be giving them shit.

They shouldn't complain?!?!?!?! You're making me crazy here.

At the LEAST, they have the right to complain. Even if you think they're far to harsh in their treatment of the Palestinians, they have a goddamn right to be upset at dozens of their citizens - civilians at that - being massacred every year in suicide attacks. If terrorists were attacking New York every couple weeks, I think you'd probably be raising your voice in outrage.

Mojo - I agree that Israel should take charge in the peace process, but I think it still all comes down to Arafat. As long as he's in charge (which he is, whether it's acknowledged or not), I don't think Sharon or anyone who's running Israel will entirely buy into the Palestinians' efforts to make peace, so they're reluctant to do anything significant to move things along.

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