View Full Version : Should God remain in The Pledge?
ChrisTheCop
10-14-2003, 07:02 PM
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NewYorkDragons80
10-14-2003, 07:08 PM
I'm against the 10 Commandments in a courthouse, but this does not recognize a religion.
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joshG
10-14-2003, 07:11 PM
I meant to vote No. Religion is so irrelevant now. If you want to practice it, do it privately and don't involve other people. It doesn't belong anywhere in the federal government.
For those people that say "Our founders believe in God therefore we are a Christian nation blah blah blah", the people that created the constitution were racist, sexist, violent bastards and I don't care what they believed in.
Edit: As a matter of fact, what's the point of the pledge at all?
This message was edited by joshG on 10-14-03 @ 11:17 PM
furie
10-14-2003, 07:19 PM
yes
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Reephdweller
10-14-2003, 07:21 PM
I say Yes, leave it as it is.
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Cybersoldier
10-14-2003, 07:21 PM
Yes, but there should be an option for anyone not to say it if they don't want too, whether it personal or for some other reasons
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This message was edited by Cybersoldier on 10-14-03 @ 11:22 PM
ChrisTheCop
10-14-2003, 07:29 PM
Actually CS, it's already an option. Kids arent forced to recite it if they (or more likely their parents) dont want (them) to.
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Try not reciting it in a southern school. You'll get a nice trip to the principals office and a few days off.
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FollowThisLogic
10-14-2003, 07:32 PM
No. Hell no.
This debate is easy. The god implied is the Judaic one. Jews, Christians, maaaaybe Muslims if you really want to stretch it, but they wouldn't be happy. You definitely leave out Eastern religions, like Hindus, Buddhists..... and any other odd religion you can think of.
Get it out.
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TheMojoPin
10-14-2003, 07:42 PM
Of course not.
It was added during the "Red Scare" to seperate us from the "Godless" commies. It's a holdover from McCarthyism and wasn't part of it when it was first written.
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erole
10-14-2003, 07:52 PM
and I don't care what they believed in.
better re-phrase that. if no one cared what they believed in...then welcome to the British Empire. you'd have bad teeth and couldn't buy tea right now.
voted yes. whether the nation is christian, or founded christian...the point is the nation is overwhelmingly in the belief of a god. of course the athiest minority must be cared for, so you don't have to say the word "God" if you don't want to.
i seriously think that this whole separation of church and state has gone so far overblown that we have become trained as a nation to fear mixing anything slightly close to being church AND state. OH OH! don't write Christmas on the White House letterhead because the word CHRIST is in there! MUST SEPARATE!
come on...you can't say in a school that you believe in God when you are accepting an award at graduation? you can't say Jesus plays a part in how well you did in school and how you live your life? you don't have that right to say that in a public place? shouldn't we be understanding that some people hold the belief of God so closely that they feel expressing appreciation when it is called for?
how can we as a nation allow the practicing of Islamic prayer in school to better understand a religion, and not allow the name Jesus be said? or not allow a general name of a higher diety to be said in our pledge?
what happened to just plain old common sense? we see violence on TV. there are titty bars in plain sight on city blocks. there are shock jocks spewing what people see as sexually explicit or vulgar talk. what do we say to that? Use parental guidence with the TV...don't go in or look at the titty bars if you don't like it...turn the radio off cause you are free to. BUT you can't have God in the pledge of allegiance because it is so bad...no one can ignore it or tune it out. you can scream VAGINA on the airway but not God in a pledge. you can wear a thong and string bikini on a public beach so small you don't have to imagine what you look like naked. BUT you can't walk past the ten commandments because it turns some signal on that it's not fair a religons amazing contribution to the world might make America look like a bunch of Jew lovin' religious fanatics making the US look like a synagogue.
real smart people out there. real smart.
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joshG
10-14-2003, 08:11 PM
and I don't care what they believed in.
better re-phrase that. if no one cared what they believed in...then welcome to the British Empire. you'd have bad teeth and couldn't buy tea right now.
No I said it like I meant. Back then you had to have land to vote, what kind of democracy were they planning on. And what do you mean we wouldn't have tea right now, it's not like we created it.
FUNKMAN
10-14-2003, 08:15 PM
NO
but if individuals want to add the name of their god into it while their saying it, let them.
the emphasis should be on "nation" and respecting it's laws.
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ChickenHawk
10-14-2003, 08:27 PM
Sure why not... Never bothered me.
Oh wait, there was that ONE time, in 4th grade, I was reciting the pledge, and when I said "God", someone ran up to me and stole all of my religious freedoms.
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erole
10-14-2003, 08:50 PM
sure they were land owning white voters with slaves doing their every bidding. disgusting vermin they were. just awful. just wish they never existed. too bad they wrote that piece of crap declaration of independence and what was it called? oh yeah, the constitutution. they had no right.
are you raving mad? if you are going to use the same measurement to the founding fathers and what they founded let's keep going.
damn those Greeks sucked ass. they had slaves too. Athens sucked ass. because they had all of those problems with slavery and their own prejudices we should just hate them. let's hate em'. we should not honor them for what they did because of how they lived in their own time.
My point is, you CAN NOT discount an idea, and a foundation, and a people because of their ignorance in a society that thought everything they did was normal for their time. You CAN NOT brush off the founding fathers and not care what they did because of the lifestyle of that time. yes what they did was bad and wrong by our enlightend standards, but having a historical perspective is key to appreciating fully what those great men did.
As an American, aside of religion and slavery and womens rights and everything else, you must admire what they did. You don't have to admire their stance on slavery.
Just like you can appreciate a persons belief in God. You don't have to admire a specific god...or one at all. I appreciate people who don't believe in a god, but, the fact remains that more people believe in God. and if we weren't so scared by PC police and the barb wire and landmine separation of church and state, we would clearly understand that God should stay in because more people believe in God. And to appreciate those who don't believe in God the option is given to say nothing. It hurts no one. No one is emotionally drained by hearing the word God, once a day. The government will not shut down because of the honor it gives to a foundation and a majority belief in a higher power.
Our nation is very young. We need a sense of history, and a sense of togetherness. We need tradition and a hold on something of our past in relation to our present. It is our identity. Lose our identity and we lose ourselves.
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TheMojoPin
10-14-2003, 09:02 PM
We need a sense of history, and a sense of togetherness. We need tradition and a hold on something of our past in relation to our present. It is our identity. Lose our identity and we lose ourselves.
Did you even read what I posted? The "in God" part was only added 50 years ago. It's perfectly fine to add it in, but taking it out would be dangerous to our "national identity"? It was added WAY AFTER THE FACT.
And let's stop acting like this isn't a big deal. If it's not, why the fuck do we have the Pledge to begin with? You can't have it both ways. Either it's no big deal or it DOES mean different things to different people. America is America...the gods are something different. Is someone somehow less of an American because they don't pledge to the Pledge's God? Because that's EXACTLY what it's implying. Read the damn thing. It's called a "PLEDGE" because that's what it's making you do. Never at any point have we forced people to support "our god" to be an American. The "under God" part of the Pledge was added to it under a stupid context and it's continued removal or existence is moot when it comes to actually BEING an American. Believing or pledging to a god is a totally different matter.
Flat out, WE do NOT ALL believe in or under the same god, period. Quit pretending like we do. Personally, I don't care if it's there or not. If there was a vote, I'd say take it out. If not, oh well. Life goes on and nothing really changes. Stop acting like this is some desperate battle that NEEDS to be fought to "save" us. It's as ridiculous as those people that think flag burning is somehow a threat to our "national security".
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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 10-15-03 @ 1:06 AM
FUNKMAN
10-14-2003, 09:22 PM
It's as ridiculous as those people that think flag burning is somehow a threat to our "national security".
the flag represents our nation, not God. when people burn the flag to me it means they are unhappy with 'everything' this nation has to offer them and if so, they have the freedom to live elsewhere.
it's said over and over but there are hundreds of thousands of men and woman that died to protect the "way of life" in this country, and the flag is something that represents that sacrafice.
go to some foreign countries and attempt to burn or disrespect the national flag and i'm sure you will most likely not enjoy what will happen to you.
fight your battles within the laws but don't disrespect the country as a whole by burning the flag...
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Death Metal Moe
10-14-2003, 09:28 PM
I say take it back out. It wasn't in there to begin with. Maybe if it's out those commie kids that don't want to recite it for religious reasons will have no excuse. I'd rather they pledge to that one then not at all.
Fucking Pinkos.
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TheMojoPin
10-14-2003, 09:36 PM
See, this I'd want out, but I have no problem with kids praying or doing religious schtick in school. As long as it's not the public school or it's staff participating or endorsing it (Like with the Pledge), it's no big deal. Why can't the kids themselves do it?
Heck, if a kid is saying the Pledge on his own time, he can say "God" all he wants. But if it's during the school-decided and "ordered" "Pledge-time", no dice.
The line seems clear to me. Public school-controlled and enacted? No religion. Anything else when it's on the terms of each individual person, who cares?
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shamus mcfitzy
10-14-2003, 09:37 PM
Should God remain in The Pledge?
so that's why i get dizzy when I'm polishing my coffee table, God is in the fumes........
and Moe, us Commie kids don't object for religious reasons, we object for the obvious "anti-pledge" reasons
TheMojoPin
10-14-2003, 09:38 PM
fight your battles within the laws but don't disrespect the country as a whole by burning the flag...
Flag-burning IS legal.
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FUNKMAN
10-14-2003, 09:48 PM
Flag-burning IS legal.
it's a shame!
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erole
10-14-2003, 09:48 PM
50 years ago there was an affirmation of important ideals that our nation held true. it was added as a stance for our identity. Of course it is identity. If you want to say we did it because of the commie russians...fine...stay with that. We identified ourselves by embracing one of our cherished beliefs. An American foundational truth of our history embodied in the present. The use of the word God SEPARATED ourselves giving us identity. It conjoined a long held belief with our country. It was an identification of who we were in relation to the world. It said, this is who we are, because this is where we came from and what we a majority happen to believe. It was a verification and affirmation of our foundation - definatly national identity.
(Anymore "-tion" ending words and I'll shoot myself)
And it is a big deal when you add or subtract anything that has to do with national tradition or national anything. It needs to be mulled over and discussed. They become important points historically. Keep making discussion, even in places like this forum, these little things form opinions and arguments that could lead to something important on a personal level or even on a national one.
Is someone somehow less of an American because they don't pledge to the Pledge's God?
Is actually saying the Pledge a verification of a belief in God? Look at it like this...law makers see the constitution as a living document. it can be taken a number of ways, parts interpreted in different ways, and parts added to it. to give us more clarity, should be draw up a completly new constitution? literally replace the last one and draw up a more clear and concise one drawing from the old and creating a more perfect constitution. something that has no grey areas. we could do that. and it could very well work. but why don't we? because it is honored and recognized, revered and cherished...and we make due with it...do the best we can.
The pledge. For 50 years we have said it as such, and it echos a simple idea of identity and involvement with the past and present. Like the constitution, we don't have to rip it up. rather let it endure as part of who we are, because that is what was intended. And like the constitution let it grow. Define the word God as the one you believe in. Redefine the word to your own likeness, making whatever you hold highest in your life that word. It's the idea of the personal nation being part of the nation. It is belief, not universal belief, but what you hold as truest and nobelest, and giving honor to the nation through it and to it. It can be a beautiful thing, and just as diverse as our people.
I don't promote the belief in Christianity into governing law, but I do promote tradition, honor, and loyalty to our identity that is of such immense value to us as a whole. let the words live and grow rather than die.
It's as ridiculous as those people that think flag burning is somehow a threat to our "national security".
i agree not a threat to national security. it is a threat to One Nation xxxxx Xxx indivisible. it threatens national pride, and togetherness. it divides. and it really pisses off a lot of people who fought for it. there are many other ways to voice an opinion. no one should ever be arrested over it...no way, not ever. it's more of an ideal of respect to the symbol of freedom, not a flag that stands for whoever is in office this year.
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TheMojoPin
10-14-2003, 10:10 PM
Like the constitution, we don't have to rip it up. rather let it endure as part of who we are, because that is what was intended. And like the constitution let it grow. Define the word God as the one you believe in. Redefine the word to your own likeness, making whatever you hold highest in your life that word. It's the idea of the personal nation being part of the nation. It is belief, not universal belief, but what you hold as truest and nobelest, and giving honor to the nation through it and to it. It can be a beautiful thing, and just as diverse as our people.
I honestly don't understand this at all.
So regardless of whether something enacted in this country was right or not...it should always and without question be allowed to exist from there on out to "grow"?
And are you saying it's better the more herd-like we are? The only thing that the Pledge is to be uniting is us as Americans, not "believers" or "worshippers". Everyone can do what they want on their own...the Pledge itself is supposed to reflect our unity as citizens of this country, not as believers in God, or any god.
The "under God" represents Americans who believe in THAT God, not ALL Americans. Shouldn't the national Pledge reflect ALL Americans? Even if it can be "modified", as you say, to "other gods", what about people who don't believe in a god? Are they left out?
Read the Pledge without the "under God" part. It's just what it says it is...a pledge of allegiance to America for ALL Americans. "Under God" instantly cuts out a big ol' chunk of America and detracts from it being about and to America. Shouldn't we want something like this to be for all of America and everyone who lives here as an American? It's not a pledge to God, or any other god. There's no reason for God to be in a pledge of allegiance to AMERICA. Not what some people in this country believe in...to AMERICA itself.
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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 10-15-03 @ 2:14 AM
Yerdaddy
10-14-2003, 10:34 PM
The use of the word God SEPARATED ourselves giving us identity.
It's the exact opposite. The use of the word God was the part of our founding documents that was JUST LIKE every other nation on earth. Every country in history has endorsed and claimed its authority from one god or another, including the one most accepted here. What separated us was the secular institutions that were set up as the foundation of our society. The freedom to believe as one chooses, or not to believe, was what was unique to the world at the time, and what has ensured a progessive increase in freedoms for Americans, irregadless of the various religious endorsements scattered about the documents at the time.
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monsterone
10-14-2003, 10:37 PM
it's ok with me.
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TooCute
10-14-2003, 10:43 PM
1. Who actually says the pledge of allegiance? The only time I recall it ever coming up in my life was at summer camp one year where we said it every morning when we raised the flag, and when I was in kindergarten in Boston.
2. Why the hell is this such a big deal? Who gives a fuck if the pledge of allegiance says under god in it? Those two instances where I recall having to say it, I certainly gave no thought to the phrase "under god", and even less thought to what the other words meant. I am assuming that somehwre in this country kids are being forced to recite this every morning in school. I am further assuming that in these places, this practice begins very early, say in first grade. Who knows. Either way, kids that age sure as hell don't understand what they're reciting. How many 5 year olds do you know that understand what a republic is? Indivisible? Liberty? Allegiance? Are these things discussed in places where this pledge is recited? I imagine that by the time kids are old enough to start giving thought to what the pledge actually means, they're also probably aware enough to take whatever meaning they like from it. I mean, "under god" doesn't offend me, and I am about as atheist as they come (as an aside, a few months ago I asked my father out of curiosity what religion his parents had been and his answer was "I don't know."). I honestly don't give a shit that someone 50 years ago when such things actually meant something and people weren't so sensitive about religion that someone decided to stick it into the pledge (which I haven't recited since I was 9 years old, and that was only over a course of three weeks).
The question is does this mean that the government is recognizing a religion? Or religion at all? I don't know. Maybe it just means that once upon a time it did. What's the harm in it? Not much that I can see. I just can't figure out why this seems to be such a big fucking deal. If I had to say anything, I'd say get rid of the pledge altogether. Making kids mouth some phrase that they likely don't even understand every morning serves no purpose that I can see. It's not making them better, more patriotic Americans, is it?
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TooCute
10-14-2003, 10:49 PM
we would clearly understand that God should stay in because more people believe in God.
So, how did Bush get into that White House, again? Can we do a recall?
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TheMojoPin
10-14-2003, 11:13 PM
I just can't figure out why this seems to be such a big fucking deal.
It's not.
Only fake patriots and super hippies think it is.
But the question was asked, so some of us answered.
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shamus mcfitzy
10-14-2003, 11:39 PM
Only fake patriots and super hippies think it is.
But the question was asked, so some of us answered.
poorly I say :)
I like my original answer.
Anyway, it's more gooder to just forget about the issue than pointlessly debate over an action that this country took in trying to pat itself on the back 50 years ago. "We" "won". The "godless Communists" were defeated. So I guess in that respect the "God" part should be doneski. A religious debate can only end with the conflict that is inherently present between religions. So arguing this issue is pointless.
The choices are
1) Leave it in and "offend" Atheists and Muslims/Buddhists/etc. who are so self-concious that they think Christianity is after them
or
2) Take it out and have Christians shout about losing their "rights" (to impose the concept of their religion on others?)
ToddEVF
10-15-2003, 02:17 AM
these are my feelings on this subject.
The Pledge should be reverted back to the pre-McCarthyism Pledge
The war is on... the lines are drawn, but there's
a lot of people saying that we've already won
But how can they believe that we have reached the end
with "In God We Trust" on every dollar we spend?
I'm sick and tired of stupid Christians
trying to run my life with their superstitions
Thats my next debate. and by "the war is on" it means the war over religion.
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McNabbShouldDie
10-15-2003, 03:41 AM
Parents REALLY need to stop talking for their kids. I go to school now and I dont know a single person who has any problems with saying "God" in the Pledge. I mean, half of them dont even say the pledge anymore, they just stand like zombies with a hand on their heart. And if someone doesnt want to say(well, if their parents dont want them to) God, dont. It's not that hard to not say a single word, or change it to whatever fake-God other people may beleive in.
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Teenweek
10-15-2003, 04:21 AM
should in god we trust be on our money?
Aggie
10-15-2003, 07:34 AM
I don't really know, I don't feel strongly either way. I believe in God, but if it wasn't originally in there it shouldn't be this controversial. But I think the kids who would say God would continue to say it even if they took it out.
Try not reciting it in a southern school. You'll get a nice trip to the principals office and a few days off.
Not only do they recite the National Pledge, they are now making it a law to recite the Texas Pledge of Allegiance.
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NewYorkDragons80
10-15-2003, 07:49 AM
The question is really whether or not it is Constitutional, so what was added and when it was added is really irrelevant. It is Constitutional because no religion is being endorsed by the state.
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TheMojoPin
10-15-2003, 07:50 AM
should in god we trust be on our money?
As long as you're fine with all the creepy Masonic symbols and imagery, sure, why not?
But again, "In God we trust" was added after the fact, during the Civil War, to be exact. It's only been part of continuous use on our coins since 1916. It only appeared on our "modern" currency from 1964 on. But please, keep thinking that it's been there from the beginning. It was added by people with an agenda, just like the people trying to get it removed. Tit for tat.
So like the Pledge, the God-heads have NO problem with things, traditions and institutions being changed THEIR way after the fact, but LOOK OUT if you try and correct their mistakes.
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TheMojoPin
10-15-2003, 07:53 AM
It is Constitutional because no religion is being endorsed by the state.
How the hell not?
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No.
And take the "So help me God" out of the Presidential oath.
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TheMojoPin
10-15-2003, 08:05 AM
This is the stupid part of this...is it worth ANYONE fighting?
With each example, you could say, "oh, people want this" or "we need to get rid of this"...why?
It's not like more of this stuff is being added...and has anyone REALLY been effected by what's already been in place?
Technically, I think all this stuff should be gone. It's stupid, outdated tradition that takes away from the legitimacy of pretty much any situation. I mean, if they want me to swear on a Bible, does this mean I can lie my ass off on the stand or totally abuse my political power since I think it's a collection of myths, lies and fairy tales? An elected official has to be "blessed" by God? Sweet...Pharaoahs, here we come! Why is it there? Does it make people feel better? Would the action of testifying in court or taking office somehow mean LESS if the person didn't swear to THAT God?
Useless semantics. Let it ride. It's not that important in the end because it doesn't actually mean anything.
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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 10-15-03 @ 12:08 PM
mdr55
10-15-2003, 08:25 AM
Anyone that want's to get rid of their cash due to having "In God We Trust", e-mail me and I will gladly take that cash off your hands.
Do they still have people sworn in during court by placing their hand on the bible? If they do, how can the court system be neutral?
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Furtherman
10-15-2003, 09:49 AM
I stopped pledging years ago. I never received my tote bag worth a value of $75.
TooCute
10-15-2003, 11:40 AM
When I'm being sworn in as president I'm not going to be blessed by god.
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The Supreme Court will leave it in. I think Scalia would literally kill someone before allowing the Court to take these words out.
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erole
10-15-2003, 06:54 PM
The use of the word God SEPARATED ourselves giving us identity.
It's the exact opposite. The use of the word God was the part of our founding documents that was JUST LIKE every other nation on earth.
You misunderstood. That quote was in reference to what happened 50 odd years ago not our inception. The addition of the word God did separate us and did gives us a clear identity 50 years ago as it drew from our history.
we would clearly understand that God should stay in because more people believe in God.
So, how did Bush get into that White House, again? Can we do a recall?
Is your implication, those who voted for Gore did not believe in God? Those people prayed to God that Bush wouldn't get in, as many did.
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NewYorkDragons80
10-15-2003, 07:10 PM
When I'm being sworn in as president I'm not going to be blessed by God.
An asian atheist president, that'll be the day.
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shamus mcfitzy
10-15-2003, 07:10 PM
Is your implication, those who voted for Gore did not believe in God? Those people prayed to God that Bush wouldn't get in, as many did.
yeah, because a majority of people voted for Gore, in case you or someone else didn't actually know
erole
10-15-2003, 07:12 PM
2) Take it out and have Christians shout about losing their "rights" (to impose the concept of their religion on others?)
Interesting. If God is taken out, I wouldn't shout about it or feel that my rights have been taken away. My belief is on a personal level. If God was taken away, He wouldn't be taken away from me. To be honest, the word God in the allegance and how people use and define God is most likely not the one I pay honor to. If it happens...actually, when it happens, it will just happen. Many poeple will keep fighting to put it back, but not me. I would abide what the government says and keep my opinion.
I would render onto Ceaser what is Ceasers, but for myself I will render what is in my heart to God.
Technically, I think all this stuff should be gone. It's stupid, outdated tradition that takes away from the legitimacy of pretty much any situation. I mean, if they want me to swear on a Bible, does this mean I can lie my ass off on the stand or totally abuse my political power since I think it's a collection of myths, lies and fairy tales? An elected official has to be "blessed" by God? Sweet...Pharaoahs, here we come!
All those collections of fairy tales and stories, the Bible being sworn in court and to get into office, the including of Nature's God and Creator in the declaration, all and more are historically imperitive to our national identity. We are only more than 200 years old, and we need tradition. This tradition is not legitimacy, but it is identitiy and a foundation of being.
I like your example of Pharohs. Starting at around 3110 BC and ending 1069 BC when civil war breaks out in Egypt. That's 2041 years of rule. Add another 1,039 years of rule in the midst of Persian and Greek kings until the Roman Empire where there would not be another Egyptian ruler for 2,000 years. Over 3,000 years of history. Not bad for a bunch of myth lovers. Their identity and tradition involved in the scope of their power made them last, and even come back to present day.
I like that kind of longevity for our country...I wish for even more. Take away our traditions, all of them, and watch what happens.
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NewYorkDragons80
10-15-2003, 07:13 PM
yeah, because a majority of people voted for Gore
He fell short of the majority of electoral votes, and if you take a gander at the Constitution, you'll see that it's all that really matters.
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erole
10-15-2003, 07:27 PM
yo, shamus, come help me out (and anyone else) (http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/Forum/87/Topic/33007/page/electorate_and_people_s_votes.htm)
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TheMojoPin
10-15-2003, 07:41 PM
You misunderstood. That quote was in reference to what happened 50 odd years ago not our inception. The addition of the word God did separate us and did gives us a clear identity 50 years ago as it drew from our history.
Our history? Our early history is packed with people who came here and made this country BECAUSE they had forced upon them a singular state religion back in the "old country." Or they were atheists, which was kinda in vogue back in ye olde crazy revolution time. Sure, there were plenty of Christians...but overall, most of the people that first came here from Europe did it to escape the idea of a state-endorsed (And eventually forced) religion.
And, yes, we are only 200+ years old as a country. But the Christian tradition is just that...the Christian tradition. Why are you so big on making someone else's tradition OUR tradition and national identity?
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guttersnipe
10-16-2003, 12:21 AM
I certainly gave no thought to the phrase "under god", and even less thought to what the other words meant. I am assuming that somehwre in this country kids are being forced to recite this every morning in school. I am further assuming that in these places, this practice begins very early, say in first grade. Who knows. Either way, kids that age sure as hell don't understand what they're reciting. How many 5 year olds do you know that understand what a republic is? Indivisible? Liberty? Allegiance?
(1) My kids were taught the Pledge in preschool when they were 2 and 3. I had to recite the Pledge every school day, from Kindergarten through 12th grade. Maybe I'm weird, but by the time I was 6, I had a pretty good understanding of all of those words except for "republic." I was always uncomfortable saying "under god," even as a child. But if I didn't (and I did try it a few times), people looked at me funny. I was already enough of a misfit that I didn't want to attract any more attention to myself, so I went back to saying it.
(2) TheMojoPin for President.
(3) I can't believe Yerdaddy said "irregardless."
~guttersnipe
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Yerdaddy
10-16-2003, 12:45 AM
(3) I can't believe Yerdaddy said "irregardless."
But at least I spelled it wrong. So I'm not a total dork, am I?
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Se7en
10-16-2003, 02:17 PM
The whole debate surrounding this is just silly. No one's forcing religion down anyone's throat at the point of a sword.
99% of the time people say the pledge they mumble everything after "I pledge allegiance...." anyway.
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NewYorkDragons80
10-16-2003, 03:43 PM
Is the pledge even a law? I'm not being confrontational, just asking, since it says "Congress shall make no law..."
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TooCute
10-16-2003, 09:07 PM
An asian atheist president, that'll be the day
I'm not asian, you tard.
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Yerdaddy
10-16-2003, 09:27 PM
I'm not asian, you tard.
She's a Vulcan, you trebble.
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TheMojoPin
10-16-2003, 09:28 PM
Is the pledge even a law?
In what way? It is the offical, federally-mandated and supported U.S. Pledge of Allegiance...but there's no law saying anyone HAS to say the entire thing or any part of it.
And Se7en, I understand what you're saying, but it still bugs me when people just shrug things like this off. "It's been there for so long...nobody really cares...who pays attention to this stuff?" It no doubt seems paranoid, but this kind of attitude is what allows more of this stuff to sneak in the back door and build up...and a lot of "little things" tends to build up after a while. And while the crux behind this particular issue may or may not be one you support, the current phrasing does not include all Americans, period, when it easily could minus that phrase. Personally, I think that including all Americans should be the ultimate goal of the Pledge, frivalous and meaningless as some of you think it is.
I don't.
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TheMojoPin
10-16-2003, 09:29 PM
She's a Vulcan, you trebble.
That's a "tribble", you nerfherder.
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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 10-17-03 @ 1:43 AM
TastelessGinny
10-16-2003, 09:34 PM
Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister and Socialist, wrote the pledge of allegiance in 1892. It was published in a Reader's Digest" type magazine for kids, September 8th (1892) issue of "The Youth's Companion."
There was no mention of God in the pledge, and that was done on purpose: Rev. Bellamy felt that he must maintain the spirit of equality and inclusion for all Americans, even the ones that don't believe in God.
In 1954, Congress added "under God" to the pledge after a successful campaign to do so by the Knights of Columbus.
It was the second change. The first one, the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America' in 1924. Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.
Minister Bellamy's granddaughter said that he would have also objected to the 1954 addition, especially considering the fact that he left out religious wording intentionally in the first place.
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erole
10-17-2003, 05:41 PM
And, yes, we are only 200+ years old as a country. But the Christian tradition is just that...the Christian tradition. Why are you so big on making someone else's tradition OUR tradition and national identity?
Christian tradition is separate from National tradition. Christian tradition is something done when you are a Christian. Communion, daily prayer, Sunday church, yadda yadda yadda.
National tradition is something held onto and grown over time from the inception and from the ideal of the nation. At least that's kinda how I would define it. And we were happened to be founded predominately by Christians, not Christian tradition.
It just happens that Christians had the overwhelming role in the nations rise and growth. I am in no way saying that non-Christians did not...a majority did. It was such a majority that 170 odd years later in a country that is only 200+, it was decided as Tasteless Ginny put it that "under God" would be put in. That was how strong the times were then, and 170 years before. We can go back and forth and take it out, put it in, re-word it, rearrange it, yadda yadda yadda. What would be nice is to keep it tradition, and understand it as such.
Because this is a Christian founded nation does that mean it is all Christian and always will be? No. We could all go athiest. Does it mean because "under God" is in our pledge it means you have to be a Christian to say it? No. Are you directly honoring God? No. It's interpretive as the constitution itself, and also nice to know that we remember where we came from and give honor to the people who did it - who happened to be Christians. If we all go athiest or branch dividian, or scientology crazed, or buddhist, or what-yadda-yadda-yadda-ever, there still should be honor and tradition made to when we first started and who started it. It keeps the past alive, and it connects the long years our country will go through. That is a good thing to know.
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Melrapuo
10-17-2003, 05:45 PM
Is this whole debate the reason why they bleep out God when someone says "God damnit" on TV?
I always thought that damnit was more of a curse than God.
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TheMojoPin
10-17-2003, 06:39 PM
Are you directly honoring God? No.
Then why is it there?
If the phrase is there to "remember the founding Christians", then add in something like "and thanks be to the founding Christians". "under God" is there for the Christian God, period. You can try and explain around it, but it's there and it's obvious WHY it's there.
The Pledge is a daily re-affirmation of one's current allegiance to this country as a citizen, and that's it. History, religion, whatever...it's all moot. The purpose of the Pledge is just that and ONLY that. "Under God" perverts and distorts that.
Any way, I've said what I gots to say. I'm Audi 5000...PEACE. TWO FINGAZ.
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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 10-18-03 @ 12:11 AM
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