View Full Version : 11/7 - Six soldiers die in Iraq helicopter crash
TheMojoPin
11-07-2003, 08:28 AM
Nobody's sure whether it was an accident or an attack at this point.
All that's known is that all six who were on board were killed.
Take a moment.
http://users.ev1.net/~medosier/Cool_pics/Salute.jpg
6 soldiers die in Iraq helicopter crash (http://www.msnbc.com/news/870749.asp)
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As much as stories like this are awful to hear, we had better start getting used to them. Like it or not, we have invaded Iraq and driven the regime from power. Now we must stay to rebuild the country. Because there was no formal surrender ceremonies as in previous wars which ceased hostilites, there are going to be rogue factions out there gunning for us.
I thought this comment from Andrew Sullivan was well-stated:
"THE SOMALIA STRATEGY: Another awful day in Iraq. Watching scenes of people celebrating the killing of soldiers, soliders who just liberated them from one of the worst tyrannies on the planet, is enough to make anyone want to leave the place in disgust. But that's the point. Saddam always relied on the Somalia strategy. He believed - and probably still does - that the U.S. does not have the guts to stick this out and wear down the Sunni dead-enders now combined with Islamist terrorists. He planned on this kind of war of attrition from the minute he knew he was militarily finished. That makes our endurance all the more necessary. The slow collapse of American credibility in the 1990s will take time to reverse. And moments like yesterday are classic attempts to test our determination. Saddam and what he still represents must fail in full view of the world. And we have an irreplaceable opportunity to see it happen."
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Yerdaddy
11-07-2003, 09:47 AM
I agree with what AJ said, but that Andrew Sullivan quote is awful.
Watching scenes of people celebrating the killing of soldiers, soliders who just liberated them from one of the worst tyrannies on the planet, is enough to make anyone want to leave the place in disgust.
I don't get to see TV news very often, but I haven't seen any scenes of Iraqis celebrating the killing of Americans like we saw in Mogodishu. So unless I just missed it, I don't see why that analogy is relevant.
He also talks as though the attacks are being directed by Saddam, which I don't see any evidence of. That kind of coordination would risk exposing Saddam, and would make for a more simple and effective counter-strategy, which isn't apparent either. The phrase "the Sunni dead-enders now combined with Islamist terrorists" is a more likely explaination, but Sullivan is more focussed on Saddam, for whatever reason. And "The slow collapse of American credibility in the 1990s will take time to reverse."? Come on! How transparent is the displacement strategy of blaming Clinton for throwing away US credibility, when this administration obviously lied us into the war, deluded itself about what we would face in the aftermath, and is so secretive about the exit strategy that even congressional republicans have no clue what the plan is? Nobody outside the US believes a word the administration says and it has nothing to do with Clinton.
We have to stay the course, but we don't have to tow the party line to do it. Insead, we the American public need to demand a transparent and thorough accounting of how the administration plans on restoring Iraq to a functioning state that has both the security strength to deal with a terrorist onslaught that it is guaranteed to face for the next generation, while assuring there's a strong enough civil society that will prevent the security institutions or a dominant political faction from taking over and imposing a new authoritarian regime on Iraq once we're gone. Frankly, I'm starting to see way too much pie-in-the-sky rhetoric and not enough honest accounting of how this massive challenge is being addressed to maintain any optimism at all. I'm ready to start predicting a Vietnam-like failure - one that the leadership responsible for it can call a success and avoid responsibility for it, but that will have real long-term consequences for generations to come.
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TheMojoPin
11-07-2003, 10:02 AM
Insead, we the American public need to demand a transparent and thorough accounting of how the administration plans on restoring Iraq to a functioning state that has both the security strength to deal with a terrorist onslaught that it is guaranteed to face for the next generation, while assuring there's a strong enough civil society that will prevent the security institutions or a dominant political faction from taking over and imposing a new authoritarian regime on Iraq once we're gone.
EXACTLY.
There's NO reason Bush and co. haven't and shouldn't present to the American people WHAT exactly is going to be done, how, and why. Yes, of course, there are security matters that can't be revealed, but the administration apparently has NO problem with the nation it's supposed to be running going around fueled by "maybe's, kinda's or sorta's."
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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."
I agree with what AJ said, but that Andrew Sullivan quote is awful.
Maybe, but I still agree with the part about "Saddam always relied on the Somalia strategy. He believed - and probably still does - that the U.S. does not have the guts to stick this out and wear down the Sunni dead-enders now combined with Islamist terrorists. He planned on this kind of war of attrition from the minute he knew he was militarily finished."
The American people haven't seen soldiers die in these numbers since Vietnam. How will this play on public support for our presence there? If we pull out now there will be a power vacuum in Iraq and guess who could come back?
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Yerdaddy
11-07-2003, 11:15 AM
Maybe, but I still agree with the part about "Saddam always relied on the Somalia strategy. He believed - and probably still does - that the U.S. does not have the guts to stick this out and wear down the Sunni dead-enders now combined with Islamist terrorists. He planned on this kind of war of attrition from the minute he knew he was militarily finished."
That may be true, but I don't see Saddam as relevant at all, once the regime fell and he went into hiding. Yes, if we pulled out now Saddam would try to come back into power. (He certainly would have to compete with others for the first time in 30 years, and I don't think he could succeed in that situation. And if he did come back, that would be the rationale for going right back in, so that's just not going to happen.) I just don't think talking about the current situation in terms of us vs. Saddam is helpful in the least. It's more pandering to the simplistic metaphors about Iraq than dealing with the complex realities. It's more important to understand that the security problems are coming from the "Sunni triangle" because the Sunnis are the group that have lost the most in this operation. They were the group that was in control of Iraq, (they filled all the positions of power in the security institutions as well as the bureaucracy, and now are the ones with the most incentive to oppose the occupation. But if they are assured, like the Shiites and Kurds, that they will still have representation and a stake in the new Iraqi government they will begin cooperating more with the American administration in Iraq and we'll be able to infiltrate more groups of the "dead-enders" and undermine support for them among the rest of the Sunnis. There will still be the attacks by outside fundamentalists because there is too strong an incentive to knock over an American-imposed government. I've accepted that the administration is too ideologically opposed to international institutions, and too secretive, to put any other flags on this thing, so Iraq will remain a prime terrorist target for the foreseeable future. But I think the majority of Sunnis are a managable element if they are handled responsibly and realistically. The biggest problem with that is the handful of exile groups that make up the Iraqi interrim authority are too interested in consolidating their own power and jockying for leadership of the country to let any new groups onto the council. I also see the administration hasn't abandoned the fantasy that they can funnel Ahmed Chalabi's INC into the presidency and at least salvage a maliable strategic ally out of Iraq regardless of the strength of its "democracy."
Pulling out now is not an option, but I do worry about the impulse to declare victory and pull out a year from now. If the public or an administration gets the sense that we cannot succeed, then there is the possiblity that we will pull out and leave behind an unstable Iraq that will be at risk of deteriorating into a more dangerous, more important Afganistan. This is what makes it all the more important that we be doing the right things now. We already know that the transition from war to reconstruction was fucked up. But what I haven't seen is what is being done to make up for that. Nobody held the administration responsible for coming up with a plan to do this thing right, and so they haven't presented a coherent plan. Instead they chose to paint rosy pictures, present only the good news, blame the media and political opponents for the bad news, and present straw men like Saddam and Syria and Iran to deflect criticism. That's not helping, and I don't know what is. Congress has not taken responsibility and demanded a coherent strategy because they know the administration would just blame their failures on Congress for interfering, (and I think enough of the public would buy that and it would work). The UN doesn't even want to play a part in the reconstruction anymore because the member nations know they'd get scapegoated again.
Basically, I think the clock is ticking louder and louder
Recyclerz
11-07-2003, 01:20 PM
As usual, Yerdaddy has thought this through and is right on target. In fact I propose we liberals breed him with Silera to produce a superprogressiveDalaiLamababy that will rule the world and rain vengance on the neo-Cons, irresponsible tax cutters and Tom Delay. Especially Tom Delay.
But I digress. Unless W has a moment of clarity and fires everybody on his foreign policy "Dream Team" except Colin Powell and hires his Dad to make nice with the rest of the world, the only constructive thing we can do so there is even a chance of salvaging anything good from this ill-conceived clusterfuck is to start organizing now to get somebody (anybody!) else elected in '04. I'm backing Clark but there are a few other good choices.
Some more good work from Slate on this topic:
Neocons are Stupid Commies (http://slate.msn.com/id/2090852/)
Zbig Trouble (http://slate.msn.com/id/2090817/)
And yes, a moment of silence for our war dead.
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TheMojoPin
11-07-2003, 09:07 PM
But I digress. Unless W has a moment of clarity and fires everybody on his foreign policy "Dream Team" except Colin Powell and hires his Dad to make nice with the rest of the world, the only constructive thing we can do so there is even a chance of salvaging anything good from this ill-conceived clusterfuck is to start organizing now to get somebody (anybody!) else elected in '04.
I don't even think he needs to fire anyone. We just need international help in there with us helping re-shape this country. Everything would be a 1,000% times better that way. What's more important...a sting to our national pride for a little while or a continued terrorist threat to our troops (And possibly back here in America) with no forseeable end?
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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."
Se7en
11-08-2003, 11:29 AM
As usual, Yerdaddy has thought this through and is right on target. In fact I propose we liberals breed him with Silera to produce a superprogressiveDalaiLamababy that will rule the world and rain vengance on the neo-Cons, irresponsible tax cutters and Tom Delay. Especially Tom Delay.
Please, no.
We all know that I would kill the child before it reached maturity. Such abominatios before God and Man are not meant to be, but still, I don't want the death on my conscious.
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Yerdaddy
11-08-2003, 11:40 AM
I don't want the death on my conscious.
It's already full of past and future American soldiers sacraficed by your boys in office.
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CaptClown
11-08-2003, 02:45 PM
As usual, Yerdaddy has thought this through and is right on target. In fact I propose we liberals breed him with Silera to produce a superprogressiveDalaiLamababy that will rule the world and rain vengance on the neo-Cons, irresponsible tax cutters and Tom Delay. Especially Tom Delay
Or the child could decide to rebel against his parents as all children do at a certain point and be the liberals worse nightmare.
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This message was edited by CaptClown on 11-8-03 @ 6:45 PM
carcass
11-08-2003, 03:17 PM
so saddam is irrelevent?...he's still out there...and Im sure he's [ probly in syria]...got some money...and friends in al queda [ enemy o my enemy is my butt buddy]....I think he is relevant
and if yo boy [ clinton].had any balls.he woulda done this shit earlier..
bush prob is this..its political...the microscope is focused .so anything bad is what is reported..
the military are peace keepers now...instead of killing em all [ what they is good at]..so they are cops....
aint that hard to shoot down a copter...
regardless of what you all think we are in this together....united we stand and win
divided we fall and lose [ nam]
face down in the gutter
wont admit defeat
thou his clothes are soiled and black
he's a big strong man , w/ a childs mind
dont you take his booze away
TheMojoPin
11-08-2003, 08:14 PM
Is he drunk?
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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."
high fly
11-09-2003, 12:53 PM
I don't know, but whatever he's on, I want some.
(edit) And I know that AJ's just waiting for me to quote myself...
You know the one. First 3 letters: "C-a-l...."
" and they ask me why I drink"
This message was edited by high fly on 11-9-03 @ 5:02 PM
(edit) And I know that AJ's just waiting for me to quote myself...
You know the one. First 3 letters: "C-a-l...."
"ifornia-sized Gaza Strip?" :)
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high fly
11-10-2003, 02:27 PM
close.
(hint-- it ain't California roll)
" and they ask me why I drink"
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