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HBox
11-18-2003, 10:27 AM
Massachusetts repeals Gay Marriage Ban (http://www.msnbc.com/news/995032.asp?0cv=CA01)

The best part about this will be all the religous zealots coming out and throwing out ridiculous claims that this will be the end of society and will lead to all sorts of ridiculous behavior. William Donahue of the Catholic League already said on CNN that this could lead to incestual marriages since marriage can't be limited to between a man and a woman. Can't incest occur between a man and a woman, genius?

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A.J.
11-18-2003, 10:31 AM
Provincetown must be like Mardi Gras right now.

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Teenweek
11-18-2003, 10:32 AM
Now instead of the story of Adam and Eve, we will hear the story of Adam and Steve.

HBox
11-18-2003, 10:54 AM
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This message was edited by WWFallon on 11-18-03 @ 5:42 PM

curtoid
11-18-2003, 10:54 AM
I just have to wonder if people 100 - 200 years in the future are going to look back and scratch their heads at what kind of nonsense people today worked themselves over.

Seriously...what do the zealots really expect is going to happen if they alow gays to get married? Does it cheapen their unions? And what would they rather gays do - pretend to be straight and marry their daughters, or die?

As far as I'm concerned, if a gay couple wants to make themselves miserable, they are welcome to the holy union of marriage - put the hole in holy, as far as I'm concerned - why should us straights be the only ones unhappy!

[KOP]

Tall_James
11-18-2003, 11:26 AM
Now Nomar has to field gay marriage proposals in addition to ground balls.


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Tall_James
11-18-2003, 11:26 AM
I blame the Kennedy family.


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TheMojoPin
11-18-2003, 11:27 AM
If homosexuals continue to want to be a part of our worst institutions, who am I to deny them their freedoms?



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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

curtoid
11-18-2003, 12:59 PM
If homosexuals continue to want to be a part of our worst institutions, who am I to deny them their freedoms?

Ok...now who doesn't have shame?! I get one, good original thought and you swipe it, like Michael Jackson going after the Beatles music!

[KOP]

JohnnyCash
11-18-2003, 01:08 PM
It was a rediculous law in the first place.

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Mike Teacher
11-18-2003, 01:17 PM
Well; two seperate issues for me here.

The first is the 'moral' one, ie. Is a Marriage the union of a Man and a Woman? Always? Is Same sex Marriage 'Right'?

The second is what may often be the real impetus for some of these suits; and its legal and financial. On it's base level, marriage is the change of legal status of a person. And for the gov, so far, that's been pretty much it.

Meaning, same sex couples who have lived together for quite a long time might wish to enjoy some of the legal and financial benefits of marriage.

With estates, wills, life insurance, power of attorney, contracts, property and few dozen other legal institutions having specific advantages [or disadvantages, often] for 'Spouses', so there's that element also.

My thoughts? Who cares!

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TheMojoPin
11-18-2003, 01:26 PM
Meaning, same sex couples who have lived together for quite a long time might wish to enjoy some of the legal and financial benefits of marriage.

Yet in some people's delusional land of make-believe, this is only reserved for people who insert the penis into the vagina.

I simply ask...why? Two adult people married is just that...two married adults. Not three or four or an adult and a kid or a person marrying an animal or their cousin.

FOOLS.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

Fallon
11-18-2003, 01:43 PM
Now Nomar has to field gay marriage proposals in addition to ground balls.
Now I know the real reason James moved here.

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Se7en
11-18-2003, 02:57 PM
Very bold, but still, mainstream America isn't ready for this.

The best part about this will be all the religous zealots coming out and throwing out ridiculous claims that this will be the end of society and will lead to all sorts of ridiculous behavior.

Don't act as if it's just the zealots - a good half of the nation (if not more) aren't too happy with the idea of gay marriage.

In the short term, at least, look for disapproval of gay marriage (and perhaps of homosexuality in general) to jump quite a bit (as it did when the S.C. decided Lawrence v. Texas this summer).

William Donahue of the Catholic League already said on CNN that this could lead to incestual marriages since marriage can't be limited to between a man and a woman. Can't incest occur between a man and a woman, genius?

You're missing the point - this goes back to the same thing Frist got in trouble for saying after the Lawrence decision. Declaring bans like this unconstitutional basically opens the door for the courts to say that everything that occurs in a person's bedroom is protected under the right of privacy - including incestual relationships between consenting adults.

I know, I know, we went through all of this before - how often would you even have an incestual couple? - but technically, Frist & Donahue have a point, from a legal perspective.

This might blow up to be a major issue come the 2004 elections - at the least, look for a big push by Republicans to pass the marriage amendment that's been proposed now for a while.

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TheMojoPin
11-18-2003, 03:09 PM
Very bold, but still, mainstream America isn't ready for this.

"Mainstream" AKA "the middle states."

Tough shit. This is mostly an issue NOT in the states full of people that oppose it. And as it was done here, this should be handled state to state. This was Mass.'s call, not the nation's. This was a state issue and decision and it was handled as such. The opinions of people in other states is moot here. If it was a federal ruling, it would be a different matter, but it wasn't.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-18-03 @ 7:18 PM

HBox
11-18-2003, 03:18 PM
Don't act as if it's just the zealots - a good half of the nation (if not more) aren't too happy with the idea of gay marriage.

The zealots are going to be the ones saying the stupid, ridiculous shit.

And I don't care what the majority of Americans think. There's no reason why they should even fucking care. This is going to be an issue where future generations look back in disgust. It's already started. The younger you are, the more likely you are to accept gay marriage. It's going to continue. The only differences between this and civil rights for blacks is that gay civil rights are not being infringed on nearly to the degrees blacks were and that religious insititutions will likely never accept gay marriage(which is well within their right).

You're missing the point - this goes back to the same thing Frist got in trouble for saying after the Lawrence decision. Declaring bans like this unconstitutional basically opens the door for the courts to say that everything that occurs in a person's bedroom is protected under the right of privacy - including incestual relationships between consenting adults.

The only way incestual relationships could affect society at large is the birth of a baby from an incestual relationship. Incestual sex could affect the rest of us, so if they wanted, they could ban that. But this isn't about incest. Or beastiality, or any wild, hair-brained scenario. They aren't societal problems and never will be. This is about the religous right using anything they possibly can to stifle gay marriage. And they, at this point, have the majority of Americans on their side.

We have a constitution that is supposed to protect the basic rights of the minority. And it apparently does in this case, or they wouldn't be trying to change it with an amendment. Passing the amendment would be a mistake, and it would ultimately end up with the same fate as the prohibition amendment.

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Tall_James
11-18-2003, 03:19 PM
Now I know the real reason James moved here.

You can wrap a turd in a championship belt but in the end...it's still a turd. :eg:


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HBox
11-18-2003, 03:23 PM
The opinions of people in other states is moot here. If it was a federal ruling, it would be a different matter, but it wasn't.

It will eventually. People will get married in Mass., move away, and then challenge their state to recognize the marriage. They will challenge the Defense of Marriage Act, and it will be overturned, as it is clearly unconstitional. If one state does something, the rest of the states have to recognize it. I'll try and find exactly where in the constitution that is, but I know it's there.

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TheMojoPin
11-18-2003, 03:55 PM
Fine. As long as it's maintained as a LEGAL issue and not a RELIGIOUS issue, as so many seem so eager to do. They seem to think both are hand in hand here.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

Se7en
11-18-2003, 04:24 PM
"Mainstream" AKA "the middle states."

Tough shit. This is mostly an issue NOT in the states full of people that oppose it. And as it was done here, this should be handled state to state. This was Mass.'s call, not the nation's. This was a state issue and decision and it was handled as such. The opinions of people in other states is moot here. If it was a federal ruling, it would be a different matter, but it wasn't.

I agree that it should be handled state to state - but by the legislature, not by the judiciary (this runs into the same sort of problems that followed Brown v. Board of Education and Cooper v. Aaron).

The opinions of people in other states isn't moot though - if a significant portion of the population (and O'Reilly - uh oh, FAUX NEWS LOL 2003 - quote a poll stating that only 32% of people support gay marriage) supports an amendment banning gay marriage, that amendment is probably going to pass. Maybe it'll be repealed as Hbox suggests, but opinions here matter.

The zealots are going to be the ones saying the stupid, ridiculous shit.

Agreed. But to act as if they're the only ones who don't support gay marriage is a bit dangerous.

And I don't care what the majority of Americans think. There's no reason why they should even fucking care. This is going to be an issue where future generations look back in disgust. It's already started. The younger you are, the more likely you are to accept gay marriage. It's going to continue.

I agree somewhat in that the issue will likely become moot within our lifetime.....but my point was, it's not moot NOW. Now, today, most people aren't for gay marriage - and thought they may be wrong, their opinion can't be discounted because they'll be the ones who support efforts to ensure gay marriages are banned. And, like it or not, though they may be wrong, their wishes must be considered - at least, since this is a democracy.

The only way incestual relationships could affect society at large is the birth of a baby from an incestual relationship. Incestual sex could affect the rest of us, so if they wanted, they could ban that. But this isn't about incest. Or beastiality, or any wild, hair-brained scenario. They aren't societal problems and never will be. This is about the religous right using anything they possibly can to stifle gay marriage. And they, at this point, have the majority of Americans on their side.

I agree that the incest / bestiality / etc. argument is largely a straw man, but don't trivialize the anti-gay marriage constituent by just saying it's fueled by the religious right - it's led more by those who subscribe to a "tradition" family model, and that covers a lot more ground than people who are just against this for religious reasons.

If one state does something, the rest of the states have to recognize it. I'll try and find exactly where in the constitution that is, but I know it's there.

Article IV, Section 1, of the Constitution.

Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state.

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HBox
11-18-2003, 04:38 PM
Agreed. But to act as if they're the only ones who don't support gay marriage is a bit dangerous.

I'm ready to admit that most sane, normal people oppose this. But I do feel that this is driven mostly by religion.

But while on the subject of crazy zealot quotes, here's one from O'Reilly, and I am not paraphrasing:

"If I want to marry a duck, I'm going to marry a duck!"

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TheMojoPin
11-18-2003, 04:38 PM
I agree somewhat in that the issue will likely become moot within our lifetime.....but my point was, it's not moot NOW. Now, today, most people aren't for gay marriage - and thought they may be wrong, their opinion can't be discounted because they'll be the ones who support efforts to ensure gay marriages are banned.

Then how will it EVER be moot? Sometimes the majority IS wrong. The civil rights comparison is excellent because countless acts, measures and bills related to that struggle were often opposed by the majority in that city, state or even the country as a whole. Yet the various governments and courts pushed ahead because it was the right thing to do. That's the case here, because there's no REAL reason to ban it except for the simple and moronic fact that people don't like homosexuality, period. Again, tough shit. I don't like paying part of my taxes towards millitary spending and I don't like traffic laws, but ultimately they need to be done. Anything preventing this is ultimately just discrimination, pure and simple.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

Heavy
11-18-2003, 04:57 PM
Wow, Mojo only posted 5 times in a gay thread. I gotta admire a man that sticks up for the rights of gay men. Get a window seat on your flight Mo?

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TheMojoPin
11-18-2003, 05:00 PM
Got enough shirtless men in those sig pics?

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

shamus mcfitzy
11-18-2003, 06:08 PM
Wow, Mojo only posted 5 times in a gay thread. I gotta admire a man that sticks up for the rights of gay men. Get a window seat on your flight Mo?


of course it would have nothing to do with the fact that the issue has other ramifications in politics. Where were you Johnee, celebrating with your guy pals?

Heavy
11-18-2003, 06:21 PM
oh thats a good one!!

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Yerdaddy
11-18-2003, 08:01 PM
As far as I'm concerned, if a gay couple wants to make themselves miserable, they are welcome to the holy union of marriage - put the hole in holy, as far as I'm concerned - why should us straights be the only ones unhappy!
That's the spirit!
Got enough shirtless men in those sig pics?
ZIIIIIIING!


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TEAR THE BITCH APART!

This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 11-19-03 @ 12:02 AM

Se7en
11-19-2003, 01:29 PM
I'm ready to admit that most sane, normal people oppose this. But I do feel that this is driven mostly by religion.

I oppose the ban on gay marriage. I think most young people - of ALL political persuasions - do, because we've grown up in a culture where homosexuality is more acceptable than it was in decades prior.

Religion may be the controlling factor here, BUT I don't think it's fair to say that it's just religious zealots out there. Not everyone is insane like Falwell - there may be some middle-aged Midwestern housewife who opposes gay marriage partly because of her religion and partly because of subscribing to traditional values, and I wouldn't necessarily call her a zealot. I think traditional values play a large part in this; despite the progressiveness of the baby boomer generation, they're less likely to accept gay marriage *at this point* than do us, the younger generation, because they were raised under a more traditional family view.

But while on the subject of crazy zealot quotes, here's one from O'Reilly, and I am not paraphrasing:

"If I want to marry a duck, I'm going to marry a duck!"

That one amused me.

I know O'Reilly gets a lot of hate here, but frankly, I'm glad we can always count on the man for gems like that.

Then how will it EVER be moot?

Eventually opinions and attitudes will change to the point that, as Hbox suggested, people will question why there was ever a ban on gay marriage in the first part. It's going to take some time, though - I still think it'll be at least another decade, if not more, before a majority of people accept things.

Sometimes the majority IS wrong. The civil rights comparison is excellent because countless acts, measures and bills related to that struggle were often opposed by the majority in that city, state or even the country as a whole.

Study the aftermath of the Brown case, and in particular read Cooper v. Aaron - in which the court specifically dealt with the issue of the government in Arkansas refusing to obey the law set forth in Brown.

Yet the various governments and courts pushed ahead because it was the right thing to do. That's the case here, because there's no REAL reason to ban it except for the simple and moronic fact that people don't like homosexuality, period. Again, tough shit. I don't like paying part of my taxes towards millitary spending and I don't like traffic laws, but ultimately they need to be done. Anything preventing this is ultimately just discrimination, pure and simple.

I stress the fact that the majority's opinion cannot be ignored here - though they be wrong - because the situation here is NOT entirely similar to Brown....because there is a decent chance that the anti-gay marriage amendment will pass, consequences be damned.

We can't sit comfortably yet and bask in the glory of victory - the fight for gay marriage, from here on out, could get particularly vicious.

BTW, there's another issue to this that we're ignoring, although that's understandable - the judiciary is yet again acting a way that can be interpreted as MAKING new law (something that they are NOT allowed to do under the Constitution) rather than merely interpreting the law. What do you think about this?

Look at the issue from both sides, mind you - it cuts both ways. Just because the court is making a ruling that is morally correct doesn't dismiss the issue of whether the court's actions here are violating federalism.

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FMJeff
11-21-2003, 06:19 AM
well, here it is folks. a change for the better. This is the significant first step this country takes toward a better world.

I'm very happy. This is a GOOD sign. Tolerance, acceptance...coexistence...are GOOD things.

I predict the controversy will last a good 6-8 months or so and then nobody will give a shit. I know my life is too substantial to worry about gay marraige.



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Tall_James
02-04-2004, 10:37 AM
From our friends at MAD magazine... (http://www2.warnerbros.com/madmagazine/files/onthestands/ots_438/rockwell.html)


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This message was edited by Tall_James on 2-4-04 @ 2:38 PM