And they say we are the bad guys. [Archive]

Bestinshow

11-20-2003, 08:13 AM

Blasts Kill Dozens, Injure Hundreds in Istanbul
Top British Diplomat Among the Dead
By ESRA AYGIN and JAMES C. HELICKE, AP

ISTANBUL, Turkey (Nov. 20) - Trucks packed with explosives blew up at a London-based bank and the British consulate Thursday, killing at least 26 people and wounding nearly 450. The worst terrorist bombings in Turkey's history coincided with President Bush's trip to Britain and were blamed on al-Qaida.
Security forces were put on highest alert after the blasts at the high-rise headquarters of the HSBC bank and the British consulate occurred five minutes apart at about 11 a.m.

Among the dead was British Consul-General Roger Short, an embassy chaplain told the British Broadcasting Corp.

The blasts followed two synagogue bombings Saturday - also blamed on al-Qaida - that killed 23 people, plus the two bombers.

Bush, at a new conference with Prime Minister Tony Blair, said Thursday's bombings showed terrorists' ''utter contempt for innocent life.''

''The terrorists hope to intimidate, they hope to demoralize. They are not going to succeed,'' Bush said.

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw described the attacks as ''clearly appalling acts of terrorism'' and suggested a link to the al-Qaida network. ''I'm afraid it has all the hallmarks of international terrorism practiced by al-Qaida,'' he said in London.
A man calling the Anatolia news agency said that al-Qaida and the militant Islamic Great Eastern Raiders' Front, or IBDA-C, jointly claimed responsibility for attacks.

It was the worst single-day toll from terrorism in Turkey since 1977, when gunmen opened fire on leftists celebrating May Day, killing 37 people.

Turkish Premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan vowed to defeat the terrorists. ''The goal of these attacks is doomed to be destroyed in the face of the government's determination ... and international solidarity in fighting terrorism,'' he said.

Interior Minister Abdulkadir Aksu said Thursday's blasts were ''most probably'' the work of suicide bombers.

At about the same time Thursday, in Iraq, a deadly truck bomb exploded in front of a U.S.-backed Kurdish political party in the northern city of Kirkuk. Officials pointed to an al-Qaida-linked militant group, Ansar al-Islam, as being behind that blast.

The first Istanbul blast was at the Turkish headquarters of HSBC, the world's second-largest bank, shearing off the facade of the 18-story building and shattering the windows of nearby skyscrapers.

Body parts, the charred shells of cars and broken glass were scattered around a 9-foot-deep crater in the streets outside the bank. Water gushed from the top floors of the building.

Bystanders bloodied and covered in dust looked dazed as they walked past lines of ambulances. Several people helped carry the limp bodies of victims

The second bomb, detonated about five minutes later and five miles away, ripped off the wall surrounding the garden of the British consulate in the Beyoglu district downtown.

At least 26 people were killed and nearly 450 wounded, Aksu said. TV reports initially said there were up to five blasts, but authorities later confirmed only two.

Straw said three or four British employees from the consulate had not reported to a roll call after the blasts.

Consulate chaplain Ian Sherwood told the BBC that Short was killed immediately by the blast. ''Quite a few people have been killed - Turkish staff and some British staff. But I'm not able to say just yet who has been killed, other than the consul general,'' he added.

Short, 58, served as consul general in Istanbul since 2001, was Britain's ambassador to Bulgaria from 1994-98, and oversaw peace-building efforts in Bosnia-Herzegovina between 1999-2000.

''Once again we are reminded of the evil these terrorists pose to people everywhere and to our way of life,'' Blair said. ''Once again we must affirm that in the face of this terrorism there must be no holding back, no compromise, no hesitation in confronting this menace, in attacking it wherever and whenever we can, and in defeating it ut

high fly

11-20-2003, 08:16 AM

How'd they get past our guys in Iraq?

" and they ask me why I drink"

TheMojoPin

11-20-2003, 08:33 AM

And they say we are the bad guys.

"Tsk, tsk, tsk..."

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Bestinshow

11-20-2003, 09:31 AM

How'd they get past our guys in Iraq?

Nobody said the war in Iraq was going to stop terrorism. But of course we shouldnt have gone into Iraq in our war against terrorism. Obviously there are no terrorists there.

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TheMojoPin

11-20-2003, 09:34 AM

Spin, SPIN! SPIN!!!!!!

Is a magazine that's REALLY gone downhill in the last few years.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

high fly

11-20-2003, 09:41 AM

Obviously we shouldn't have gone into Iraq

No, we should have. The terrorists hate to travel and giving them more targets closer to home is the polite thing to do.

" and they ask me why I drink"

Teenweek

11-20-2003, 09:46 AM

Better in Baghdad than in Times Square.

silera

11-20-2003, 09:49 AM

Better in Baghdad than in Times Square.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

It just hurts so much.

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AND WHAT?</center>

high fly

11-20-2003, 10:00 AM

Yeah, them Iraqi missiles were pointed right at NYC.

" and they ask me why I drink"

TheMojoPin

11-20-2003, 10:10 AM

And they say we are the bad guys.

"I say YOU are the ones who are the ball-lickers!"

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furie

11-20-2003, 10:11 AM

wow. I pretty much knew every post before i opened the thread.

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TheMojoPin

11-20-2003, 10:16 AM

Stop trying to impress the ladies.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

high fly

11-20-2003, 10:22 AM

Yeah, him and his big, bulging, throbbing, nodulated foreknowledge of love....

" and they ask me why I drink"

silera

11-20-2003, 10:26 AM

Yeah, him and his big, bulging, throbbing, nodulated foreknowledge of love....

That made my vagina tingle.

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AND WHAT?</center>

Bestinshow

11-20-2003, 10:27 AM

Spin, SPIN! SPIN!!!!!!

And what am I spinning? Or are car bombs not terrorism now. The only thing thats spinning is my head from the general malaise on the left.

Yeah, them Iraqi missiles were pointed right at NYC.

Yeah, those Iraqi militants are great guys. I hear they even work off the clock. And we all know that its impossible, with their limited resources, to do any damage in New York. They would have never done that.

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TheMojoPin

11-20-2003, 10:30 AM

And what am I spinning? Or are car bombs not terrorism now. The only thing thats spinning is my head from the general malaise on the left.

We're being attacked by terrorists in Iraq BECAUSE we're in Iraq. It's a shitty, horrible thing, but you tried to pass it off that they "found and exposed terrorists" as opposed to being attacked by terrorists after the occupation began that came there to attack the troops BECAUSE they're there. It's not a malaise, it's just horsehit goggles. These attacks are awful, but you're trying to pass this whole thread and the fact that our guys are getting killed as "proof" we should be there, which is just plain odd.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-20-03 @ 2:33 PM

Bestinshow

11-20-2003, 10:32 AM

That made my vagina tingle.

And that makes the whole thread worth while!

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Bestinshow

11-20-2003, 10:37 AM

We're being attacked by terrorists in Iraq BECAUSE we're in Iraq. It's a shitty, horrible thing, but you tried to pass it off that they "found and exposed terrorists" as opposed to being attacked by terrorists after the occupation began. It's not a malaise, it's just horsehit goggles.

You make it sound like these guys were working in Denny's until we rolled in and they said, "We are not going to take it anymore". These factions already existed here, hence "Terrorist Regime" You make it sound like these F'en radicals are freedom fighters and heroes. They are F'en terrorists and they were there all along. A climate like what existed before was a freakin hornets nest for this shit. I am not wearing shit goggles, you have your head in the sand.

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Bestinshow

11-20-2003, 10:39 AM

Better in Baghdad than in Times Square.

Wasn't that a Neil Simon play?

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TheMojoPin

11-20-2003, 10:43 AM

You make it sound like these F'en radicals are freedom fighters and heroes.

No I didn't.

Our own government is saying most of these guys are coming in from outside of Iraq to kill our troops and "fight for the Iraqi people."

This thread is supposed to be some kind of pity party for America, and it's not needed. Who the hell here is supporting our guys getting killed this way? It's awful. The purpose of the invasion was NOT, "let's invade, wait until terrorist groups start attacking our soldiers, and THEN we'll be right!" Iraq was supposedly a threat ABROAD. Who the hell thought our troops wouldn't be at risk from this shit? It's not the reason we invaded, nor a justification, yet you're trying to make it like it was and still is. We went TO the problem that's currently happening. The terrorists weren't "working at Denny's", but they weren't targeting American soldiers. Does it take a genius to assume that anti-America terrorists in the region wouldn't attack American troops once they arrived? I should hope not.

And what the FUCK does a terrorist attack in Turkey have to do with the perception of America around the world, OR the attacks in Iraq?

I hate all of you. EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD WILL DIE.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-20-03 @ 2:47 PM

silera

11-20-2003, 10:48 AM

That was just mean.

I cried.

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AND WHAT?</center>

high fly

11-20-2003, 10:49 AM

Huh' wha?
Terrorists are bad? Like we shouldn't invite them over and stuff?

Since when?

" and they ask me why I drink"

Bestinshow

11-20-2003, 11:09 AM

And what the FUCK does a terrorist attack in Turkey have to do with the perception of America around the world, OR the attacks in Iraq?

First of all, I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say a terrorist attack on a British consolute and a British bank is unrelated to the inability to acquire Monty Python and Benny Hill reruns. I'd say its probably related to their role in Iraq.

2nd, is my point being while their are protests around the world how awful we are, the real culprits are blowing up innocent people on street corners, banks, buses, consulates and such. And to say because they are in different countries they are unrelated is naive. They are all intertwined with the same motive, they hate us, Israel and all our allies.

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high fly

11-20-2003, 11:14 AM

But this time next year, they'll be sitting back, all peaceful-like, fat and happy with their democracy we got fer them.

I bet they send us some real nice thank-you notes.

" and they ask me why I drink"

TheMojoPin

11-20-2003, 11:16 AM

2nd, is my point being while their are protests around the world how awful we are, the real culprits are blowing up innocent people on street corners, banks, buses, consulates and such. And to say because they are in different countries they are unrelated is naive. They are all intertwined with the same motive, they hate us, Israel and all our allies.

All excellent points in the proper context, which this was not. Whether you want to think so or not, the title of this thread and most of the posts (Yours, high fly's and mine) are just spin, plain and simple. The news story is a terrorist attack in Turkey, yet it's twisted to be about foreign perception in America, our presence in Iraq, where the terrorists in Iraq are coming from, and now even Israel. How is this all NOT spin?

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

high fly

11-20-2003, 11:17 AM

Let's all get together and drop some acid.

" and they ask me why I drink"

Bestinshow

11-20-2003, 11:17 AM

I want Christmas cards. "Merry Christmas, from Bagdad" with camels pulling a sleigh.

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Bestinshow

11-20-2003, 11:21 AM

Mojo, that would be true if we were living in a fish bowl, but all these events are related. I strongly believe so anyway. Every suicide bomb that goes off is part of the same war. Until everyone realizes that, it can never be stopped, or at least lessened.

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high fly

11-20-2003, 11:24 AM

I used to know this guy named Skip who saved and saved till he got enough money; then he went out and bought 2 bottles of acid.
He used to put a drop in his eye, first thing in the morning.
I'm sorry I never tried it.

Skip would know what to do about all this terrorist shit.

" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 11-20-03 @ 3:25 PM

TheMojoPin

11-20-2003, 11:25 AM

You're spinning it even more now. Now the topic is all terrorism is inter-related, whereas it initially started off seemingly as a comment on foreign interpretation of America. Which is it?

Yeah, I'm probably coming off like a dick here. What else is new?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-20-03 @ 3:25 PM

Bestinshow

11-20-2003, 11:26 AM

Let's all get together and drop some acid.

Isn't it nice how we can talk politics...and than settle our differences over something so basic and wholesome. I'm in. I'll bring the sugar cubes!

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high fly

11-20-2003, 11:27 AM

Prob'ly some bad acid...

" and they ask me why I drink"

Bestinshow

11-20-2003, 11:39 AM

Mojo, now who's wearing the goggles? :p

Obviously all terrorism isn't related. (I doubt Oklahoma city had any ties to this) But while you are trying to treat all these conflicts as separate little wars, they are not. They are all part of the bigger picture of us vs. them. Us being the ones trying to stop terrorism. Them being the terrorists. You can debate our methods all you want but our motives are clear. So are their's. These attacks in Turkey are clearly related to the conflict in Iraq. England feels the same way. My point being, while we are being demonized oversees, the terrorists are having a field day, relatively unfettered by the same press that is killing us.

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Bestinshow

11-20-2003, 11:41 AM

Mojo, is it my imagination or did this turn into another one on one conversation between you and I. Maybe its time to move on.

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high fly

11-20-2003, 11:53 AM

I'd say it's a little bigger than just being related to our involvement in Iraq.

Most of the Islamic terrorism is related, at least ideologically, if not organizationally.
What we need to understand is that they want to impose their version of Islam on the entire world, and terrorism is a means to that end.
If we walk out of Iraq, abandon all our bases over there, abandon Israel, etc. today, the bastards will still try to kill us.

Soooo, loik, did you ever imagine, loik, y'knew how an atom has those electrons going around it and stuff?
And did you, loik, ever imagine that, loik, we, our universe was maybe loik a teeny little electron going around an atom in a bigger universe, and, loik, that universe was just a little electron in a BIGGER universe, which of course is just an electron in....

" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 11-20-03 @ 4:03 PM

HBox

11-20-2003, 12:57 PM

Us being the ones trying to stop terrorism. Them being the terrorists.

That's an incredibly black and white way to look at a grey issue. If the Israeli army kills a bunch of innocent Palestinians, for any reason, is that terrorism?

Furthermore, have we created more terrorists with the Iraq invasion? Even Rumsfeld conceded that might be the case. Would these people attacking our troops right now in Iraq ever even have the means or the motive to attack Americans? It seems like we've given them both. It doesn't make it right, but you can't say we didn't know this would happen.

Have we ever had even the slightest bit of evidence of an Iraqi backed terrorist attack against the U.S. before the war? Iraq obviously supported Palestinian terrorists, but is that really our problem? Especially right now, with Al Qaeda still active? And especially considering the military support and leeway we give Israel. I'd say deal with our threats first, and Iraq wasn't one of them.

We may have done a wonderful thing in freeing this country. And maybe in our wildest dreams Democracy will spread in the Middle East. But I just don't buy this argument that these terrorists we are fighting in Iraq now would have otherwise someday attacked our mainland.

My idea is that we vigoursly attack and hunt down Al Qaeda, stop our enemies from developing WMDs, and try to do whatever we can to stop people from hating us in the first place. Whether that means pushing Saudi Arabia to stop funding these fundamentalist schools or re-examining some of our more questionable foreign policies. If we follow the current policy (invade country, rebuild it) I fear we will just create more terrorists. And everytime we try to strike back we will end up creating more and more terrorists.

But that's just my two cents.

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high fly

11-20-2003, 01:18 PM

Have we ever had even the slightest bit of evidence of an Iraqi backed terrorist attack against the U.S. before the war?

Uhhhh, yeah, sad to say. Before the first Gulf War, that is.
I just finished a book called Terrorist (sorry, can't recall the author). It is based on the author's interviews with a terrorist defector who was assigned to blow up a hotel in Switzerland, but who turned himself in, instead.
A large part of the book concerns a terrorist master bomb maker who invented the barometric bombs that were stashed either in luggage, or sometimes a terrorist would shove one down under a seat of an airliner. Then he'd get off and the bomb would go off on the next flight.
Supposedly the explosives were well hidden in the lining of suitcases or carry-on bags. Also, several didn't explode and were seized by us and others.
These terrorists operated out of Iraq and were supported by the government.
This was back in the 80s.

" and they ask me why I drink"

Bestinshow

11-20-2003, 01:54 PM

That's an incredibly black and white way to look at a grey issue. If the Israeli army kills a bunch of innocent Palestinians, for any reason, is that terrorism?

Its simplistic but its true. Terrorism is defined by motive. If Israel kills innocent Palestinians, not to sound callaous, but that is Collateral damage. War is never without its horrific side. There is no such thing as a war without collateral damage. On the other hand, terrorists target innocent civilians and use that terror as a weapon of fear.

Furthermore, have we created more terrorists with the Iraq invasion? Even Rumsfeld conceded that might be the case. Would these people attacking our troops right now in Iraq ever even have the means or the motive to attack Americans? It seems like we've given them both. It doesn't make it right, but you can't say we didn't know this would happen.

I'd say many people pro and antiwar knew this would happen, but the question was , is it worth the cost? I say it is. I find it hard to believe that this war itself created more terrorists. this takes a certain mind set that already existed, and will continue to exist as long as we stand in their way. This includes Palestine as well as Iraq, Kuwait, Iran, Syria or whereever else we don't let fundamentalists exist unfettered. As far as means and motive, they have plenty of cash to afford the means and the motive existed way before we invaded Iraq.

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furie

11-20-2003, 03:58 PM

Have we ever had even the slightest bit of evidence of an Iraqi backed terrorist attack against the U.S. before the war?

yes, we have slight evidence.

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high fly

11-20-2003, 04:01 PM

I just found the book I mentioned a while ago.
Now this is only one source, but it's a pretty interesting one. It's:
TERRORIST The Inside Story Of the Highest-Ranking Iraqi Terrorist Ever To Defect To the West by Steven A. Emerson and Cristina Del Sesto.
Villard Books, 1991.

" and they ask me why I drink"

TheMojoPin

11-20-2003, 09:02 PM

My point being, while we are being demonized oversees, the terrorists are having a field day, relatively unfettered by the same press that is killing us.

Fine.

But THAT is still a totally different point from THIS...

But while you are trying to treat all these conflicts as separate little wars, they are not. They are all part of the bigger picture of us vs. them. Us being the ones trying to stop terrorism. Them being the terrorists. You can debate our methods all you want but our motives are clear. So are their's. These attacks in Turkey are clearly related to the conflict in Iraq. England feels the same way.

And the former point is something that seems totally redundant. What western media outlet is giving terrorism a "free pass"? The whole thing just smacks of not liking criticism of American, so it's twisted around in a weird way of scolding the media for not talking enough smack about terrorism, which is pointless.

"TERRORISM: STILL EVIL".

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

Yerdaddy

11-20-2003, 10:14 PM

What HBox said.

Here's a rule of thumb: If your theory of terrorism leaves the only solution that the US commit genocide, then your threory needs work. Terrorists are individuals, not a religion, a race, or a country. They have an ideology and they need to recruit people and convince them to commit acts of terrorism. What we, as their enemy, do makes a difference in what they can do to recruit and motivate their followers. If the accusations we made as justification for the war on Iraq were true, then recruiting for terrorism would be more difficult, not less. Instead, the recruiting propaganda can be as simple as "The US lied to the world to make war on Iraq. They plan to (insert conspiracy theory here), and must be driven off of Arab lands at any cost." That makes more sense to people than "The US is vigorously pursuing the group of people that orchestrated the most horrific attack on them in their history. They plan to (insert conspiracy theory here), and must be driven off of Arab lands at any cost."

The Iraq War didn't create terrorism, and we aren't the bad guys. But terrorist attacks against our allies and international agencies and their personnel are worse now than they were prior to the war, and probably ever, and we do not have a clear strategy for countering that. Instead, the president and his administration have been playing to the polls and their simplistic models of the way things work, and they've made the war on terrorism even more difficult for us to win. We need new leadership, new strategies, more open and inclusive policies that utilize our intelligence agencies instead of manipulating them, and we as Americans need to stop bitching at each other and start doing our fucking jobs as citizens of a democracy, meaning read the fucking newspaper, think for ourselves, and hold our leadership to standards of conduct worthy of America. But I'm not holding my breath.

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TEAR THE BITCH APART!

curtoid

11-21-2003, 05:04 AM

What yerdaddy said...what hbox said...

In 2004 the Democrats should answer the Republican's rhetorical question "Is the world better without Saddam?" with their own question, "Is the world safer after we removed him?"

We somehow made a cluster fuck even clustier and fuckier.

Whether you want to think so or not, the title of this thread and most of the posts (Yours, high fly's and mine) are just spin, plain and simple.

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I'll be holding my breath to see if someone comes up with a way out of this mess.

[KOP]

This message was edited by KOP on 11-21-03 @ 9:06 AM

Bestinshow

11-21-2003, 11:57 AM

Unfortunately, you guys are being too simplistic in the other direction. You are using the assumption that if we leave the powder keg alone, eventually it wont go off. While there may have been no immediate plans by sadaams regime to launch a strike this was basically accomplished by preventing the country from trading and basically also starved the country out literally and financially. This could and should not have been done indefinitely and given the chance to rebuild, who knows what could have occured. There was no way restrictions could be lifted while sadaam was there and the fact that they were necessary speaks volumes of what the world felt about him.
And everyone seems to forget, this man thumbed his nose at the rest of the world and refused to cooperate. If he had nothing to hide, he could have averted this but he chose not to. I can't see how leaving a man in charge of a country,who was so anti-american, in such a volatile region , at such a volatile time would have had better results. It didn't take much in resources or man power or planning for that matter for Bin Laden to do damage.
While there is no clear solution or clean way of handling it, I don't think the world was better off before. Yes people are dying, but with him in power, other people would have died instead. I never thought that this was the solution to everything but I do feel the world is safer without Sadaam in power.

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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 11-21-03 @ 4:31 PM

Bestinshow

11-21-2003, 12:28 PM

And the former point is something that seems totally redundant. What western media outlet is giving terrorism a "free pass"? The whole thing just smacks of not liking criticism of American, so it's twisted around in a weird way of scolding the media for not talking enough smack about terrorism, which is pointless.

I don't claim to be learned in foreign journalism but the impression I get of the foreign press is they hate us more than the terrorists. With all the car bombs and consulates blowing up, I see plenty of coverage of anti-American protests but almost apathy towards the war on terrorism. It has nothing to do with criticising the US. Its much deeper than that. Its sounds basically like I said. You would think that we were the bad guys.

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shamus mcfitzy

11-21-2003, 12:40 PM

I don't claim to be learned in foreign journalism but the impression I get of the foreign press is they hate us more than the terrorists. With all the car bombs and consulates blowing up, I see plenty of coverage of anti-American protests but almost apathy towards the war on terrorism. It has nothing to do with criticising the US. Its much deeper than that. Its sounds basically like I said. You would think that we were the bad guys.

There is no good guy or bad guy. Each side had it's own motives, some of which are bad and some of which are good. And the international community can much more easily get pissed at America than "terrorism", because that's the inherent flaw with the conflict: that "terrorism" is not a country that can be defeated. Also, "terrorism" is inherently bad, so there's no reason to speak out against it.

This message was edited by shamus mcfitzy on 11-21-03 @ 4:43 PM

Se7en

11-21-2003, 12:54 PM

Terrorists are individuals, not a religion,

Oh, I would tend to disagree.

I would venture that a vast majority of terrorism today would end should we simply eliminate one particular religion from the face of the planet.

London Freed from Tyranny, Bush Statue Toppled
(2003-11-20) -- Citizens of London streamed into the streets, filling the air with cheers and celebratory gunfire as a crowd toppled a statue of the infamous tyrant George Bush.

The exuberant mob gave vent to the long suppressed hopes of a people who had suffered for almost three years without freedom under the iron fist of Mr. Bush and his puppet, British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

"I can now speak freely," said one Londoner through tears. "It is like a great darkness has been lifted from us."

The search now begins for the British torture chambers and mass graves which the Bush-Blair regime kept full during their reign of terror. The hunt is also on for the two despots who were last seen entering Mr. Blair's underground bunker at No. 10 Downing Street.

And while leaders in the jubilant crowd called for the immediate institution of democracy in England, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan urged caution.

"We welcome the fall of these tyrants," said Mr. Annan, "but it is a well-known fact that English-speaking peoples are not advanced enough to rule themselves."

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shamus mcfitzy

11-21-2003, 01:09 PM

I would venture that a vast majority of terrorism today would end should we simply eliminate one particular religion from the face of the planet.

i guess you could say that. Of course if America was desposed of the terrorists wouldn't have nearly the problems they do now.

TheMojoPin

11-21-2003, 04:11 PM

I don't claim to be learned in foreign journalism but the impression I get of the foreign press is they hate us more than the terrorists. With all the car bombs and consulates blowing up, I see plenty of coverage of anti-American protests but almost apathy towards the war on terrorism.

You want the honest truth? This is old news for most of the rest of the world. Terrorist attacks like this are, sadly, nothing special. America invading other countries? Now THAT'S news. And yes, plenty of these people hate us. But you know what? Just as many, if not more, fear us. And the idea of America invading whoever they want, seemingly on such flimsy principles as what we used to go into Iraq, is these fears seemingly coming to life. Hatred, dislike, fear, mistrust...it's all of those things. America's not supposed to do things like this, at least in their eyes, so when we do, it's HUGE. Terrorrist attacks on the level of what happened in Turkey, unfortunately, is business as usual.

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curtoid

11-21-2003, 07:18 PM

I would venture that a vast majority of terrorism today would end should we simply eliminate one particular religion from the face of the planet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/images/baader_lead.jpg

http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/terrorists_spies/terrorists/kaczynski/1a.jpg

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TheMojoPin

11-21-2003, 10:30 PM

He said "vast majority", which IS correct, even though his sentiment sucks.

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sr71blackbird

11-22-2003, 06:01 AM

These asshole terrorists are only doing this because they want to nurture the worlds current anti war sentiment agaisnt the US because they dont want us in that part of the world. We are only in that part of the world because our presence will eventually stabilize the region, like it or not. Its easy to go the popular route and never make waves, but that part of the world is getting out of hand and needs to be directed by example. What I believe is that we will enable the oil which will flow from Iraq to economically enrich the people of Iraq and their standard of living will increase and other nations around it will see them getting richer and they will see the combined benefits of stability and economic enrichment. These radicals are just doing what they are doing because they dont want their world changed, even if its for thir own betterment. They see us as infidels and because there is a high extremist percentage in their population, they justify their attacks on us as religious justification. What Bush did with initiating this war isnt popular, but is doing the popular thing always right? Will this be viewd in future history books as being a "bad" thing we did? Its easy to do what everyone wants, but its not easy doing whats right, and I believe that future historians will view this as being the right thing to do. Thats my 2›
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curtoid

11-22-2003, 07:32 AM

He said "vast majority", which IS correct, even though his sentiment sucks.

Yeah, advocating genocide against followers of a religion because you blame followers of that relgion advocating genocide against followers of religions - is, like, totally a real bummer.

[KOP]

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This message was edited by KOP on 11-22-03 @ 11:36 AM

high fly

11-22-2003, 07:42 AM

SR71 -- I suggest you read more, so that you may get a better grasp of the ideology and goals of Bin Laden, Muslim Brotherhood, etc.

SHAMUS -- Moral relativism has been so widely discredited that one espousing it looks foolish. Victim of the public school system, are we?

You youngsters need to use your eyes and ears more and your mouth less around us adults.

" and they ask me why I drink"

Yerdaddy

11-22-2003, 07:52 AM

I would venture that a vast majority of terrorism today would end should we simply eliminate one particular religion from the face of the planet.
Thank you for making my point. If you're looking to pinpoint terrorists you have narrowed it down to a billion people. That's worthless to dealing with the problem. If you had said that the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists, then you would have gotten into the realm of useful information. In fact, since the 9-11 attacks the vast majority of Terrorist attacks have been in Muslim countries. So you've also taken allies with an incentive to join with us in rooting out the terrorists, and lumped them in with our enemies. Nice work.

I do feel the world is safer without Sadaam in power.
Be sure and try the bubble gum trees there in Candy Land. I hear they're yummy. The war on Iraq has been a boost for al-Quaeda, and a burden on our war on it. It was stupid and wrong.
And the U.S. invasion of Iraq has dramatically boosted the growth potential of this more diffuse jihadi movement over which al-Qaeda can still claim parentage. Analysts such as those at the prestigious Institute of International Strategic Studies in London (which hosted President Bush's speech on Wednesday) believe that al-Qaeda has successfully capitalized on the upsurge of worldwide Muslim outrage over the invasion to swell its ranks. And the escalating insurgency confronting U.S. troops in Iraq - punctuated by regular suicide terror attacks reminiscent of those committed by al Qaeda - may be amplifying Bin Laden's message that the path of jihad can defeat the U.S. and redeem Arab honor.
<a href="http://www.time.com/time/world/printout/0,8816,547798,00.html" target="_blank">- Turkey Bombings Reflect New-Look Al-Qaeda</a>
If Al Qaeda is behind Thursday's attacks - as well as last week's twin bombings of Istanbul synagogues and the explosions that devastated a residential compound in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, earlier this month - it would mark an unprecedented surge in activity for the Islamist terrorists.
<a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1121/p01s03-wome.html" target="_blank">- 'Phase shift' in terror's war on West</a>

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high fly

11-22-2003, 08:07 AM

..simply eliminate one religion...

No sweat.
Should be a snap, kinda like when we got rid of saccarin.

" and they ask me why I drink"

TheMojoPin

11-22-2003, 08:11 AM

Yeah, advocating genocide against followers of a religion because you blame followers of that relgion advocating genocide against followers of religions - is, like, totally a real bummer.

Sorry, are you sharing bestinshow's sentiment that people like me aren't criticizing blatantly evil notions like genocide and terrorism "hard enough?" Yeah, I'll get right on that. Let me warm up first.

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HBox

11-22-2003, 08:13 AM

I've been thinking. If I kill everybody on Earth except for me, nobody can bother me. That'd be cool. I think I'll do it.

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TheMojoPin

11-22-2003, 08:31 AM

I've already got a giant bomb with an outline of me cut out of it, so SUCK IT.

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high fly

11-22-2003, 08:36 AM

So, like I was really really peaking and I couldn't stop looking in the mirror in the bathroom.
I couldn't believe it was really me!
And I was seeing not just every pore like I'd never seen before, but I could, loik, see inside each and every pore....
And I, loik, kept staring into my eyes, just to see who would look away first, me or the other guy.And I could, loik, see right down inside his eyes and it was loik that view screen on Star Trek cuz I could see these little comets coming out of the center and all and I had that feeling of falling, falling, falling down this hole and then it was loik I was speeding through the universe at warp speed and sometoims the teeny comets would be coming outta the center and then other toims they would be going into the center and try as I might, I could never catch it when it would switch....

" and they ask me why I drink"

sr71blackbird

11-22-2003, 07:06 PM

SR71 -- I suggest you read more, so that you may get a better grasp of the ideology and goals of Bin Laden, Muslim Brotherhood, etc

Stop it!http://www.film.warka.pl/images/mctiernan/12922.jpg

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This message was edited by sr71blackbird on 11-22-03 @ 11:42 PM

curtoid

11-23-2003, 10:11 AM

These asshole terrorists are only doing this because they want to nurture the worlds current anti war sentiment agaisnt the US because they dont want us in that part of the world.

As opposed to the poseur asshole terrorist in Asia (The Sipah Suhaba), or South Africa (Warriors of the Boer Nation), or Europe (Irish Republic Army) or South America (the Shining Path guerrillas), that are all only doing this for fun for all of these years? Yeah - those wacky, kooky Muslims sure have the market cornered.

We are only in that part of the world because our presence will eventually stabilize the region, like it or not. Its easy to go the popular route and never make waves, but that part of the world is getting out of hand and needs to be directed by example.

Why aren't we in Tibet, then?

These radicals are just doing what they are doing because they dont want their world changed, even if its for thir own betterment.

Are we talking Muslims here, or Republicans against gay marriages?

They see us as infidels and because there is a high extremist percentage in their population, they justify their attacks on us as religious justification.

Horse shit. Most Muslims have no problems with Americans or America. It's the government and the policies they view as hypocritical they have a problem with. This is actually not uncommon with other parts of the world, like France, who criticize the President ("What's wrong with Bush?", unlike us who tear down an entire people ("What's wrong with The French?").

Sorry, are you sharing bestinshow's sentiment that people like me aren't criticizing blatantly evil notions like genocide and terrorism "hard enough?" Yeah, I'll get right on that. Let me warm up first.

People like you? Um., like, no that wasn't what I was getting at.that would be kind of foolish of me to think that.kind of like expecting a Nader supporter to take responsibility for helping elect George W. Bush.

The war on Iraq has been a boost for al-Quaeda, and a burden on our war on it. It was stupid and wrong.

Hazzah.

[KOP]

This message was edited by KOP on 11-23-03 @ 2:12 PM