Lawyers will be the end of us

[sr71blackbird]

This article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A20028-2003Nov28?language=printer) shows that lawyers will likely be what destroys us. Its about this guy that has been in cusstody since 9/11 who had come here a few months prior to 9/11 and he was given a visa when he came and he overstayed it and all of his papers seemed to have all the earmarks of someone associated with the terrorists, and so he was detained. He was almost overlooked by the system, which I know isnt perfect, but after reading the article, see that lawyers will stop at nothing to try and get $$ from their own government. But whats the cost? I believe that this kind of reaction by lawyers will eventually force us to lower our strictness on who we allow into our country and prevent us from detaining someone who seems very suspicious and eventually, we will not be allowed to proptect out own people. Im not saying that this guy wasnt inapropriatly detained or his civil rights werent violated, but what were we suppose to do? Think about the atmosphere on the day and days after 9/11. Its only here that lawyers would do this tuff. If it were us and we happened to be in Algeria on tha day of an attack on their country, I seriously doubt that lawyers in Algeria would come to our defense if we seemed connected to their attackers.

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[silera]

It's November 29, 2003. As on November 16, 2001, this guy was cleared of any terrorist charges. He is still in jail.

The fact that we have a consititution, and a judicial system that upholds it is part of what makes this country great.

I disagree with what you've written on so many levels that I cannot gather my thoughts.

Maybe I've read a different article than you have.


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<font size="3" color="red">AND WHAT?</font></center><font color="FBF2F7">

[Arienette]

like silera, i'm not sure what the hell you are trying to say...

but after reading the article, see that lawyers will stop at nothing to try and get $$ from their own government. But whats the cost? I believe that this kind of reaction by lawyers will eventually force us to lower our strictness on who we allow into our country and prevent us from detaining someone who seems very suspicious and eventually, we will not be allowed to proptect out own people.first off, this has nothing to do with lawyers. it's about rights. the same rights that this guy was willing to go awol and leave his country for. i guess that's a little ironic.

no one is saying that people suspected of being terrorists or being affiliated with terrorist groups can't be detained, questioned, and investigated. and that's even now, when things are much less frenzied as they were right after 9/11. but the country's need to do this does not preclude it from affording basic human rights to these people in the process. these guarantees are what make this country great. so, if the original post was trying to be patriotic or something, i think i missed the point.

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[high fly]

Where's the confusion?

He's merely saying that we need to lock up the innocent.
The more we can get away from the liberties so many have fought and died for and the closer to practices of brutal dictators, the better.

Perfectly understandable.

We all know that only guilty people get arrested. Besides getting rid of the lawyers, why not get rid of the judges, and also stop wasting money on juries while we're at it?

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

Count me in, I must be missing something.

Especially given that there are MORE people like him in the same situation...in jail indeifnitely with no charges against them for similar reasons...I don't get what you read in that article, but clearly you missed the point.

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[Snoogans]

Lawyers will be the end of us


damn you arienette

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Snoogans 1, Monitor 0

[furie]

Ok, prepare to hate me.

I agree he should have been removed from the US after the FBI were done with him. but let's get one thing straight, he has no rights. According to IMAC 90 and the Immigration Reform Act of 96, those who are admitted to the US legally and didn't obtain that admittance through fraud have limited civil rights here. Once someone overstays their visa, or their status is revoked, they have no civil rights, none. the constitution does not apply here people. sucks I know, but quit the bitching about the civil rights violations, there are none here.

Now, that being said, I do and at the same time don't agree with the two pieces of legislations here. They're a good idea and have served the country well, but after 9-11 they've begun to be abused. Just like the Patriot act was a good idea at first, eventually it's been abused.

This guy's been fucked by the US.


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[Recyclerz]

C'mon people, I'm sure SR71 was just making an ironic Post-Post-modern joke about the human condition in the tradition of Kafka, Beckett and Camus.

Right, buddy?



[b]Sig-less in Gaza[b]

[CaptClown]

The only crimes I see him breaking are immigration laws. They can deport him back to Algeria where his fate will be to sit in a prison cell there and probably get real torture. When the guy gets out he'll probably be deported.

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[Snoogans]

the prob is he cant be deported anywhere.

he isnt a national of any state so we dont have a place to send him. though it is bullshit he has been in jail all this time, we have no where to send him. its a no win
edit: to be safe, i didnt read the story posted here, but i read something close in the paper so i assume its the same, if not, nevermind this

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This message was edited by Snoogans on 11-29-03 @ 12:57 PM

[high fly]

He has no rights




We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, and are endowed by the Creator with certain inalienable rights...



Let's see, who do I agree with.....

" and they ask me why I drink"

[furie]

he won't get out, he'll go striaght from the cell to the plane.

But now here's an interesting twist the government could employ to keep him even longer. Since this guy's facing a lenghty jail time at home, and possibly worse, the US cannot deport him. See, we cannot deport someone to a place where they may face human rights violations(ironic huh?)

So they could set this guy up for an asylum hearing. Those used to take years, now I can't imagine how long they take.


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[furie]

We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, and are endowed by the Creator with certain inalienable rights...


I agree, unfortuneatly the declaration isn't a piece of legislation.


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[high fly]

FURIE- of course you are right, but if Mason, Jefferson, et al were here, I think they'd insist that he has those "inalienable rights".

(Of course that depends on one's definition of "all" and "inalienable".)

I like the idea of being on their side.

" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 11-29-03 @ 2:15 PM

[carcass]

well.if the guy had played by the rules...it would not have happened..his own fault....

face down in the gutter
wont admit defeat
thou his clothes are soiled and black
he's a big strong man , w/ a childs mind
dont you take his booze away

[TheMojoPin]

Don't pretend like you know how to read.

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[stickyfingers]

this movie was cuba gooding jr's best work IMO

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jrich is quite a guy

[furie]

this movie was cuba gooding jr's best work IMO


what?


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[sr71blackbird]

Um, are you people for real? You really think that this is the way any of us would be treated in any other country? What I was saying (and here I have to always always explain what I mean, and I cant for the life of me not see why this concept is so far beyond your grasps..) Eventually, because of this kind of action by lawyers (yes, lawyers) we will not be allowed to detain anyone, even if they are caught red handed, or even seen/videotaped doing a crime. I said I dont think this guy got treated right, but by your collective reaction, its obvious you feel that we should have just let him go. He broke the law, plain and simple. He just had picked a real bad time to do it. This is going to turn out that we really didnt have a case against him, but what would have happened if we had let him go and it later turned out he was connected? What would you say then? This is a way of having safeguards to protect us, and if we eliminate this, what will we have?

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This message was edited by sr71blackbird on 11-29-03 @ 6:50 PM

[furie]

I'm all about safeguarding America, but when the investigation revealed he wasn't a threat, at what point should he have been deported?


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[TheMojoPin]

Um, are you people for real? You really think that this is the way any of us would be treated in any other country?

So? What does that have to do with the story? Doesn't make it right if it happens here to the wrong people.

This is going to turn out that we really didnt have a case against him, but what would have happened if we had let him go and it later turned out he was connected? What would you say then? This is a way of having safeguards to protect us, and if we eliminate this, what will we have?

So...we should NEVER let him go? Just in case?

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[TooCute]

You really think that this is the way any of us would be treated in any other country?

Detained simply for being foreign despite lack of evidence connecting us to any sort of terrorism? Hmm. Yes.

Relevance? None. We aren't in "any other country".

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[TooCute]

Um, are you people for real

No. I thought we already established that Mojo was a robot.

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[TheMojoPin]

You're just jealous that I'm a dancing machine.

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[TooCute]

Let's just make sure your ass doesn't blow.

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[FUNKMAN]

He remains behind bars, awaiting a deportation hearing, unable to post a &dol;25,000 bond.


what would happen if he posted the bond? would he then get set free but have to stay in the country for the hearing?

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and when you're bad you die when you die

[Doomstone]

Welcome to Ashcroft's America!

[sr71blackbird]

but when the investigation revealed he wasn't a threat, at what point should he have been deported?


I never said he shouldnt be let go, obviously he is innocent, but what Im saying (rather plainly, I might ad) is that if we continue to act as if everyone who seems like they are guilty are just let wander around and never attemt to find out their story or if they are connected to terrorists, then it is US who are being foolish. Im all for him being let go (where did it look like I said he should be perpetually detained???...anyone??), I just have to question why his very being detained is causing an issue with anyone. Until somone is shown to not be affiliated with these groups, Im all for erring on the side of caution. The way most of you are coming off is like your upset with cops who find a building on fire and a guy running out with gas cans and matches and your all upset that they arrest him and hold him in custody until they find out what the story was. I didnt say anywhere that this man should be kept in jail forever. Im upset that the system that is suppose to protect us is being worn down with lawsuits. Many people keep saying that there aught to be laws for this or that, and the truth is, there ARE laws, but its the efforts of greedy minded people who seek to prevent the implementation of these laws that results the degredation of our society.

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[TooCute]

Until somone is shown to not be affiliated with these groups, Im all for erring on the side of caution

But the point of the story you linked to is that he was shown not to be affiliated with any terrorist groups on 11/16/2001, and yet he is STILL being detained.

What was your point again?

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[sr71blackbird]

That there are some who wish that he had never been detained, and they intend to undermine our security. I understand that he was excessively held beyond what should have been normal to make that detrmination, and thats not what Im arguing.

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[TheMojoPin]

Until somone is shown to not be affiliated with these groups, Im all for erring on the side of caution.

Like TooCute said, how long can we "err" someone? You're vague on this...three years? Five? Ten? Fifteen? What's the deal here? Who's to say we'll EVER be 100% sure this guy is OK? Why let him out at all if that's the case? This is why these new laws and rulings need to be clearly defined, and they're far from it at this point.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[FUNKMAN]

isn't it 'just' his lack of money thats keeping him held?

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and when you're bad you die when you die

[Yerdaddy]

Blackbird, have you ever been abducted by aliens? Just curious.

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[sr71blackbird]

Alright, never mind. My point that I was trying to make is that we should be careful, thats all. Maybe I should say this 5 more times? He should have been freed when it was apparent he wasnt involved, but maybe everyone would feel more comfortable if we just let everyone go, because who are we to inconveineince someone who seems suspicious. Your right, its better that they "feel good" than our loved ones are safe. I aught to be ashamed of myself for caring about us and our culture.

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[Yerdaddy]

I'm ashamed of myself for hoping you would eventually make a coherent point.

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TEAR THE BITCH APART!

[Doomstone]

Blackbird, carcass, and KeithyBeefy should have their own roundtable political talk show on Fox. I'd watch every day.

[TheMojoPin]

because who are we to inconveineince someone who seems suspicious

More than two years in jail and the possibility of indefinite amounts of MORE time in jail is one heck of an "inconvenience."

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[Heavy]

Well all I know is we should be putting this info all over the Arab world. The only problem is we're not brutally beating him on an hourly basis. If that would reslut in just one terrorist thinking twice about a trip over here, its worth it.

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This message was edited by johneewadd on 11-29-03 @ 11:46 PM

[Arienette]

You really think that this is the way any of us would be treated in any other country?like too cute said, we're not talkin about "any other country". what does that have to do anything? just because other countries don't afford rights to people, we shouldn't either? geez, talk about peer pressure.

and here I have to always always explain what I mean, and I cant for the life of me not see why this concept is so far beyond your graspson behalf of everyone, i apologize for not having the capacity to grasp the completely illogical. and i'll just leave that whole double negative uncommented upon.

Eventually, because of this kind of action by lawyers (yes, lawyers) we will not be allowed to detain anyone, even if they are caught red handed, or even seen/videotaped doing a crime. maybe my reading comprehension is not what it once was, but i'm confused. what's the "action by lawyers" that you're referring to? my best guess is that you mean the lawyers from the lawyers committe for human rights. based on my reading, they said that they are opposing the holding of detainees without providing them a lawyer. no one's talking about letting them go before they are cleared or not detaining them at all.

Im upset that the system that is suppose to protect us is being worn down with lawsuits. Many people keep saying that there aught to be laws for this or that, and the truth is, there ARE laws, but its the efforts of greedy minded people who seek to prevent the implementation of these laws that results the degredation of our society it seems to me that these lawyers are concerned with constitutional guarantees. maybe it's just that i'm still a somewhat naive law student, but i believe in things like that, too. what laws are you talking about? is there one more important than the constitution? last i checked, any law contrary to the constitution's provisions is struck down. these are lawyers trying to do precisely what you are condemning them for not doing, namely attempting to implement the supreme law of our country. how you can fault them for that, and then equate that with their trying to prevent such implementation, confuses me more than anything else you've said. and that's saying a lot.

I said I dont think this guy got treated right, but by your collective reaction, its obvious you feel that we should have just let him go.ok, first, who said that we should have just let him go? the only thing that i saw in this thread was people saying that he should have been let go just a little sooner once it was determined that he was not affiliated with the terrorist groups. you say that you agree with that, as well, so i'm not really sure what you're trying to say.

I just have to question why his very being detained is causing an issue with anyoneit's not causing an issue with anyone. again, i dont know that anyone took issue with his being detained initially. i don't think anyone questions our country's need to detain those who might pose such a threat to all of our safety. the only issue is what happened subsequent to his being cleared of any terrorist affiliation.

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[Yerdaddy]

The only problem is we're not brutally beating him on an hourly basis.

For what? For not committing terrorism? How the fuck is that going to deter the real terrorists exactly?

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[Heavy]

How the fuck is that going to deter the real terrorists exactly?

By them knowing we can be brutal even if they arent found guilty. I dont want to step foot in Iran, because I'll be attacked and beaten and killed even if i do nothing wrong. Thats how the fuck it will deter real terrorists.

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HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[Doomstone]

Yeah, if only we were more like Iran...

[Death Metal Moe]

Kill 'em all, let Allah sort 'em out!

And how did OUR OIL get under THEIR LAND?!?!

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Oh well, I misspelled something. Get over yourself!

This message was edited by Death_Metal Moe on 11-30-03 @ 12:24 AM

[Heavy]

That damn out oil causing more problems then its worth.

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A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[Yerdaddy]

I dont want to step foot in Iran, because I'll be attacked and beaten and killed even if i do nothing wrong.
Do you have to be this simple-minded? Thousands of Americans travel to Iran every year and they are not beaten or killed. I know people who have lived there. The State Dept. has a travel warning for the border regions along Iraq, Afghanistan and Baluchistan and that's it. You can't just make shit up based on your simplistic assumptions and present it as evidence. Americans are safe travelling to most of the Arab world. If that doesn't fit in with your simplistic view of the world then drop the xenophobic bullshit and do some homework before you post.

As for beating innocent Muslims just for being Muslims to make a point to terrorists, it would have the opposite effect. Grow up.

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[CaptClown]

the prob is he cant be deported anywhere.

he isnt a national of any state so we dont have a place to send him. though it is bullshit he has been in jail all this time, we have no where to send him. its a no win
edit: to be safe, i didnt read the story posted here, but i read something close in the paper so i assume its the same, if not, nevermind this

Seeing as he was an Algerian Air Force Lieutenant at the time he came over here, he would probably be deported back to Algeria. Of course if he gets back to Algeria he will probably be Court-martialed for desertion.


He remains behind bars, awaiting a deportation hearing, unable to post a $25,000 bond.
There are plenty of people over here that can't make bail. Being unable to make bail money is not a violation of his rights. If they wanted to hold him in custody as a material witness they could hold him indefinitely if they thought he was a flight risk.

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This message was edited by CaptClown on 11-30-03 @ 11:44 AM

[Arienette]

Being unable to make bail money is not a violation of his rightswhat about not being given access to a lawyer? because i believe that's what this whole thread was started over...

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[high fly]

I'd feel so much safer if we could lock up more innocent people.

There's too much freedom in this country and it's a good thing we've got an administration that's determined to cut back on this hippie/commie/junkie/fag--liberty bullshit.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[furie]

Being unable to make bail money is not a violation of his rightswhat about not being given access to a lawyer? because i believe that's what this whole thread was started over...


You're not afforded a lawyer in immigration proceedings. There are such things a simmigration lawyers, but all they do is file the overly complicated paperwork that's involved.


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[high fly]

trample trample trample trample trample

" and they ask me why I drink"

[CaptClown]

It's either jail here or jail in Algeria for desertion. Of course he could have tried to immigrate legally when he first came over here under his visa.

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army
Poison Clan rocks the world

[TheMojoPin]

Fine, you just gave two options that aren't being chosen. Either charge and try the guy officially or toss him out. This wishy-washy wallowing leading to amibguous and indefinite jailtime is NOT a good thing.

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[Arienette]

You're not afforded a lawyer in immigration proceedings. There are such things a simmigration lawyers, but all they do is file the overly complicated paperwork that's involved.wait, from my understanding, there were both criminal charges and the immigration issues. he had been detained for around seven months before being given a lawyer to defend him on the criminal charges.

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[Green Lantern]

Maybe we should take a cue from Back to the Future 2 and get rid of all Lawyer.
Then the future will be bright ;p

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[furie]

You're not afforded a lawyer in immigration proceedings. There are such things a simmigration lawyers, but all they do is file the overly complicated paperwork that's involved.wait, from my understanding, there were both criminal charges and the immigration issues. he had been detained for around seven months before being given a lawyer to defend him on the criminal charges.

Well first, immigration charges are criminal, but what you're refering to is 18 USC charges. The article doesn't refer to anything 18 USC. He was picked up trying to enter Canada after his US visa expired. that's it.

Of course he could have tried to immigrate legally when he first came over here under his visa.


it's not that simple. He may not have been able to adjust his status here to legal. He has to have someone(individual or in cased corperation) sponsor him. it's not just a matter of walking into federal plaza and filing paperwork.

Unless they're offering amnesty, but that's rare.


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This message was edited by furie on 11-30-03 @ 9:45 PM

[Arienette]

Well first, immigration charges are criminal, but what you're refering to is 18 USC charges. The article doesn't refer to anything 18 USC. He was picked up trying to enter Canada after his US visa expired. that's it.all i know is that the article talked about both the criminal lawyer and the immigration lawyer (which he didnt have yet). they were discussed as separate things. and you were talking about how people dont have the right to an immigration lawyer. maybe it's just semantics, but i don't know...

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[furie]

ok, I just reread the article. I missed the part about the public defender in buffalo the first time.


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/stormshadow.jpg" height=100 width=300>

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

Locked at the request of sr71blackbird.

<IMG SRC=http://www.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mikeyboy/alicesig.jpg>

[JustJon]

Thread is reopened. Back to discussion.

<img src="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/bans/rfjustjon9.gif"><BR><A href="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com">Chaotic Concepts</a>

[Yerdaddy]

OK then.















Now we're done.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
TEAR THE BITCH APART!

[mikeyboy]

Damn. You should have aired this place out. It's musty as hell in her.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=mikeyboy">
Thanks to Pantera, Yerdaddy, fluffernutter, Tall_James, and Skidmark for new sigs
I'm hiding out in the big city blinking
Subscriber to Dignan's 40 year plan
2%

[TooCute]

Damn. You should have aired this place out. It's musty as hell in her.

In who?

<img src="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/bans/toocute2.gif">

[FUNKMAN]

what were we discussing?????

i know one lawyer who is a helluva guy!

<img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/funkman.gif">

and when you're bad you die when you die

[Reephdweller]

it makes perfect sense

<center><IMG SRC="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=3">
<B>Horde King Forever!! <strike>The Oracle Never!!</strike></B></center>
<font size="1" color="red">
<marquee behavior=alternate bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Right now you could care less about me...
but soon enough you will care, by the time I'm done</marquee> </font>

[furie]

yeah, I think this thread's done. all has been said.
The only reason to post now is to have the last word.


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/thansurfadam.jpg" height=100 width=300>

[Se7en]

Which I shall have.

I'm currently in training now to be a lawyer, and thus I can assure you: yes. Yes, we will be the end of you.

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/KyoSe7en.jpg" width="300" height="125">
<br>
<br>
Resistance is <b>FLAMMABLE.</b></center>

[JustJon]

f this is all about getting the last word, that's easy. I'll have it then relock the thread :)

<img src="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/bans/rfjustjon9.gif"><BR><A href="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com">Chaotic Concepts</a>

[Yerdaddy]

<marquee behavior=scroll>http://hometown.aol.com/bonedaddy5/images/birdman3.gif--------------<font size="5">Word</font></marquee>

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
TEAR THE BITCH APART!

[IrishAlkey]

I always wondered what Ron Jeremy would look like if he were born a turkey.



<center>http://www.yourmomsbox.net/alkey/Alkey.gif</center>

[StupidGirlllll]

I request that this thread gets relocked...hahahaha

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mikeyboy/3646846f.jpg

[furie]

i don't think the mods have the balls to relock this thread.


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/thansurfadam.jpg" height=100 width=300>

[high fly]

We had fish sticks tonight for dinner.






And did Michael Vick REALLY get traded?










" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 12-2-03 @ 7:08 PM