The "Flu Vaccine" - Are We Fucking Ourselves Over?

[ChickenHawk]

It looks like this year's strain has advanced beyond the current vaccine we have.

Full Story (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2003/12/10/national0927EST0550.DTL&type=printable)

If we keep on updating the vaccine, and people keep getting shots, the bug is gonna keep advancing, and eventually become drug resistent. We're gonna find ourselves with another Plague. I'm completely against the flu shot. The flu doesn't kill anyone anymore unless they're VERY old or VERY young. So why vaccinate everyone just out of convenience? I'll let my body take the flu, beat it, and my immune system will form its own natural defense. Just wait... The population drop-off is coming, and it's gonna be our fault.

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This message was edited by ChickenHawk on 12-10-03 @ 8:41 PM

[Bill From Yorktown]

doesnt suprise - with a million mutations each year how the hell are we supposed to keep up?

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[HBox]

The flu kills. And it leads to pneumonia, which REALLY kills.

And I don't think you understand what the flu shot is. It's not some kind of medicine that kills the flu. The flu shot is dead flu viruses, which your body uses to become immune to the dead strains. And there are shitloads of different strains of the flu. We are not dealing with a superflu this year, its just that the flu shot makers did not include the current flu strain in the shots. This flu is not stronger than normal, it is just circulating more and consequently killing more people.

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[ChickenHawk]

HBox - I know what the flu vaccine is and how it works. The flu doesn't kill (at least not on epidemic scales) unless it is completely neglected OR, as I said before, you are an infant or you are elderly. The flu vaccine is a relatively new concept. The more we change up vaccine formulas, the more the strains will mutate and adapt. Eventually, we will dig our own graves when we can't find a vaccine anymore. It happened in Russia with TB.

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ORACLE NEVER!!!
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[sr71blackbird]

Its weird, for the past month Ive been hearing continuous commercials on the radio urging people to get the flu shot, and then today they say we are running out..? I honestly dont know anyone who gets that shot. To me, stuff like that is like taking an antibiotic for a cold, just making the next strain more powerful. When I use to work out doors all year, I never got sick, ever! Now, Im inside and all these people with kids come in and people are sick all over the place, and Ive had 3 colds so far this year. Before I started working indoors, I had a cold maybe once every 12 years.

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[ChickenHawk]

Before I started working indoors, I had a cold maybe once every 12 years.
How old do you have to be to start realizing that this is a consistent pattern?

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[HBox]

There is a big difference between taking antibiotics for colds and the flu shot. For one, both the cold and the flu are viruses. Antibiotics only affect bacteria. If you get antibiotics for a cold, its only to protect against bacterial infection and possible pneumonia.

The flu shot just strenghtens your immune system. Your immune system fights the flu. Bacteria becomes drug resistant because of antibiotic overexposure and misuse. If the flu mutates (which it isn't), its not because of the flu shot. What's happening here is that the dominant strain this year is not covered by the flu shot. It's spreading faster because of that and other factors.

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[TooCute]

I know what the flu vaccine is and how it works. The more we change up vaccine formulas, the more the strains will mutate and adapt. Eventually, we will dig our own graves when we can't find a vaccine anymore.

Chickenhawk, stop now and go read some science books and learn what a vaccine is and how it's made before you make yourself look even more ignorant.

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[ChickenHawk]

Too bad I was told this by two science professors and there are multiple textual sources dealing with similar issues. Check out "Plagues & Peoples" by William H. McNeill and "Betrayal of Trust" by Laurie Garrett. Whether I'm right or not, I bring up a debatable argument and I don't think it warrants being called ignorant.

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[TheMojoPin]

No, it doesn't.

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[serVice]

CDC- influenza (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/)
World Health Org. (http://www.who.int/health_topics/influenza/en/)
Here's 2 links that will teach you about the flu in general.
By the way, i think the flu vaccine has been around since sometime in the 1960's.

"You guys, do you know where i can find the clitoris?"
"what is that like finding jesus or something?"

[Death Metal Moe]

So I called my doctor for an appointment. He said come over as soon as I could cause he had a cancellation. So like 2 minutes later I was there!

He said "How did you get here so fast?" and I said

"Flu!"

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[TooCute]

Too bad I was told this by two science professors and there are multiple textual sources dealing with similar issues. Check out "Plagues & Peoples" by William H. McNeill and "Betrayal of Trust" by Laurie Garrett. Whether I'm right or not, I bring up a debatable argument and I don't think it warrants being called ignorant.


No, being ignorant warrants being called ignorant. I am seriously urging you to find out what a vaccine is and how it works before you dismiss it as being a bad idea.


when we can't find a vaccine anymore.

Since I don't have those two books handy, is there a chance you could maybe paraphrase the pertinent info where they explain how vaccines cause viruses to evolve and eventually we won't be able to find a vaccine to kill the viruses? Because it's news to me, and I've worked as an immunologist. But then again, I hated it, so maybe I missed something.



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[TheMojoPin]

No, being ignorant warrants being called ignorant. I am seriously urging you to find out what a vaccine is and how it works before you dismiss it as being a bad idea.

But this thread is begging, BEGGING to LIVE!!!

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[Steels]

This was a topic during dinner this evening. My argument was this: 36,000 people died from "flu" related causes last year and they are for the most part very young children, the elderly and people that suffer from weak immune systems. Why would there be a need to vaccinate the strong as well? In my eyes there is no need.

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[TooCute]

Isn't it generally suggested for the young and elderly, the people who are most likely to suffer serious harm from it?

Everyone else is urged to get it, I assume, so that they don't have to miss work etc.

I dunno, but personally I would rather not get the flu than get it, even if I'm not going to die from it. But I'm just nutty that way.

That said, I'm just too lazy to actually go and get a flu shot, but that's an unrelated issue.

But it's not a "bad idea" that's going to cause an unstoppable strain of superflu.

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[Dudeman]

just to repeat what others have said- vaccines and antibiotics elicit their effects in very different manners and are obtained in very different ways. these differences make the concept of resistance important in the use of antibiotics, but not really that important for vaccines. if you don't understand these differences, this might be your source of confusion.

to summarize: overuse of antibiotics leads to resistance = no good. overuse of vaccines= not really an issue.

also, some doctors only give the flu shot to the young or elderly, others give it to everyone. that's still a judgement call.


-the dude is online-

[Se7en]

Chickenhawk, stop now and go read some science books and learn what a vaccine is and how it's made before you make yourself look even more ignorant.

Well, check out the big brain on Brad.

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[HBox]

I'll let my body take the flu, beat it, and my immune system will form its own natural defense.

I can't believe I forgot to comment on this. You do realize that this is EXACTLY what a flu shot does, right?

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[Steels]

Is there a "ChickenHawk" vaccine I can get my hands on? I am willing to pay handsomely for such a treasure.

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[Death Metal Moe]

Is there a "ChickenHawk" vaccine



We still have to isolate the Homosexuality gene.

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[fluffernutter]

Well, check out the big brain on Brad.


I took a knee,

Thank you.

So when I go to the doctor tomorrow to get this boil on my stomach checked out, should I take a flu vaccine while they are still available?


Or should I get a rain check?

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[Steels]

My argument was this: 36,000 people died from "flu" related causes last year and they are for the most part very young children, the elderly and people that suffer from weak immune systems. Why would there be a need to vaccinate the strong as well? In my eyes there is no need.

Here is my point. I see a wide variety of people getting flu shots every year and I think that may have contributed to the "drought". The strong and healthy rarely need such assistance. I can't even remember the last time I was "naturally" sick.

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[Death Metal Moe]

You should get it before some selfish old person gets it to live!

Damned old people!

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[TooCute]

Here is my point. I see a wide variety of people getting flu shots every year and I think that may have contributed to the "drought".


What drought?

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[Steels]

Eh. There are many flu vaccination banks across the country that are at dangerously low levels however we are not affected.

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[Mike Teacher]

Whether I'm right or not, I bring up a debatable argument and I don't think it warrants being called ignorant.


Well, first you are absolutely right that's it's debatable. The board of self-appointed experts [me included, wooHOO] should realize "Ignorance" in something is the starting point of knowledge, and how we learn.

We Start where we are.
We Begin where we are not.

I wear my scientific ignorance like a badge of honor. And while I'd never compare myself with any great scientists, the very best, the magicians, like Feynman and Dirac and the Man from Ulm, were admittedly quite ignorant in other areas of science. It's essentially, everything. So, there you go...

In short:

actually no; it's not worth it.

Shorter: You're Fucking A well Told that the evolution of viruses as a result of vaccines happens, and read the article below then we can debate the finer points of the the Eschericium. But know your coat proteins. And memes, and Dawkins, and the crimes of Gallo, and not just what Google gets anyone. Sigh, pissing contests, no one wins, but I'll venture a guess here. I know more on this then anyone on the board. Flame away.

HERE; have fun, it's a bit simplistic, but... (http://www.college.ucla.edu/webproject/micro12/m12webnotes/viralevolution.htm)

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This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 12-11-03 @ 2:07 AM

[Mike Teacher]

The RNA viruses are good at this. HIV that causes AIDS mutates so fast that the immune system never clears it from the body and every vaccine that has been developed has failed to prevent infection from this ever-mutating virus.


Our ignorance on this is so bad that the world is literally begging someone to figure it out. The above is from the cited article. This is a Retrovirus defined.

They are the true shape-shifters; I mean it's like the worst horror movie ever, watching the Virus Laugh at out efforts.

And check out this, sports fans. Viruses are so 'simple' that there are different camps of thought on whether or not we should call Viruses 'Life' or 'Living'. Its nothing! A bunch of nucleic acids in a protein coat! So small a gazillion can infect a single bacterium.

And we don;t know shit as to how to stop it. Cite all the data, I have it too, but the real enemy, the greatest dangers to our survival as a species, will come from within; something so simple as this.

I pray we Solve it. Please. The world begs science; and folks work around the world, all the scientific knowledge to figure out something so simple; a virus.

36,500 a year, if we add a bit to the number, = 100 a day. Imagine the outcru if that was the casualty rate in Iraq? Stupid, trite comparsion, but the numbers are surprising. 100 people; the young, the infirm, the elderly, every day, and not a damn thing we can do to stop it. Some say even if it gets only a bit worse, that the number might double. That's 200 peeps a day. Over eight deaths an hour. Every hour, from yesterday to tomorrow.

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[Steels]

Thank you for a normal, informative post Mike. An excellent resource I shall surely use in the future.

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[sr71blackbird]

Part of me wants there to be a "cure" for these kinds of things, so people dont suffer. But another part tells me that these things also help keep down a population explosion.

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[Recyclerz]

Slate: Why you should get the flu vaccine (http://slate.msn.com/id/2091774/)

This guy describes a concept known as "herd immunity", which is basically that if enough members of the population become immune to a particular malady the entire herd becomes more resistant to getting infected, preventing a pandemic.




[b]Sig-less in Gaza[b]

[Jack_Doff]

Be careful getting your flu vaccines though folks. There are certain medical conditions (pre-existing or existing) that make getting the flu vaccine extremely dangerous. I have one of the pre-exisiting ones, yet every year, human resources tries to get me to take the shot. Fight the man!

[JustJon]

I know more on this then anyone on the board.
That's a bold statement.

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[FMJeff]

Fuck the flu. Who cares?

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[Dudeman]

[quote]
I know more on this then anyone on the board.


huh???

[Mike Teacher]

That's a bold statement.


Agreed! What a pompous ass this 'teacher' guy is.

And shorten the posts, sheeesh they pay him by the word?

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[high fly]

We Start where we are
We Begin where we are not


"Reports say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns, there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns- the ones we don't know we don't know"
--Don Rumsfeld




Y'know?






" and they ask me why I drink"

[TooCute]

Well, first you are absolutely right that's it's debatable. The board of self-appointed experts [me included, wooHOO] should realize "Ignorance" in something is the starting point of knowledge, and how we learn.

Of course it is. But you have to admit it before you can learn anything.


In short:

actually no; it's not worth it.


Again, why? Why is it not worth not getting sick? Despite all the naysayers, I have yet to see an argument for it.


Shorter: You're Fucking A well Told that the evolution of viruses as a result of vaccines happens, and read the article below then we can debate the finer points of the the Eschericium. But know your coat proteins. And memes, and Dawkins, and the crimes of Gallo, and not just what Google gets anyone. Sigh, pissing contests, no one wins, but I'll venture a guess here. I know more on this then anyone on the board. Flame away.

HERE; have fun, it's a bit simplistic, but... (http://www.college.ucla.edu/webproject/micro12/m12webnotes/viralevolution.htm)


The link you posted certainly doesn't tell us that flu vaccines are not worth getting; it merely explains how a flu vaccine is made. Your comparison to AIDS in your subsequent post is not relevant to the flu; AIDS did not evolve to be deadly due to the use of vaccines against a "different" form of AIDS; it does not even infect host cells in the same manner. Also, you reference to Eschericium is clearly wooshing me, nor am I entirely positive what Dawkins and Gallo have to do with influenza.... I'm not even going to touch the "I know more than anyone on the board" line - about Dawkins and Gallo? I dunno, maybe you do :)

The argument against getting the flu vaccine that ChickenHawk was making is

The more we change up vaccine formulas, the more the strains will mutate and adapt. Eventually, we will dig our own graves when we can't find a vaccine anymore. It happened in Russia with TB.

The problem is that the flu is not cause by a bacterium the way TB is. Antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria are a reality and an increasingly large problem. Direct comparisons can not be made between TB and the flu; it is this statement that demonstrates ignorance of the differences between vaccines and an antibiotics.

I do not, however (and I freely admit my ignorance of this), know of any viruses that have evolved into completely-un-vaccine-against-able forms because of the use of vaccines.

As the link MtT posted indicates, a vaccine is formed against the strain of flu virus that the CDC decides (and they use a lot of sort of complex mathematical modelling to come up with this) will probably be the most prevalent strain in the upcoming year. The vaccine does not kill the virus. A person's antibody's against the virus do. The antibodies are developed against the vaccine. The vaccine is generally made of an attenuated form of the virus itself. They are the exact same antibodies your body would make to rid your body of the virus were you to actually be infected. In essence, a vaccine "infects" your body with a form of the virus that doesn't (usually and/or hopefully) hurt you.

The lecture notes in the link MtT posted refer to "H"(HA) and "N"(NA) proteins on the surface of the flu virus (they stand for hemagglutinin and neuraminidase; the former helps the virus stick to its host and the latter helps the new viruses that grow inside the host cell after its infected bud off to go infect other cells); the NA antigen (an "antigen" is a protein on the surface of a cell that your immune system recognizes as being foreign and therefore triggers an immune response), is generally not considered to be that important in the formation of vaccines because antibodies against the NA antigens don't work that well (and NA proteins don't change that quickly).

The HA proteins (imagine them to be like little sticky fingers that grab onto cells, and imagine the virus to be round - mostly because it is :) - so it's like a little ball with sticky fingers sticking off

[Death Metal Moe]

So am I gonna DIE or not?

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[Mike Teacher]

How that is "not worth it" is beyond me.


Too Cute; well said and done. You're right.

But let me just correct a misunderstanding that is my doing. The phrase 'not worth it' was my frustration that the post would be huge with my explanation of Why vaccines are indeed a Necessary Thing. 'In Short' should have been 'On the plus side'. My bad. Hence the following confusing 'The Shorter' being long. I screwed up the intent entirely.

Ok my view: Vaccines are on of the miracles of the revolution in medicine. It is sad that there are things that go wrong with vaccinations, but to me, this is clearly outweighed by the immediate need to stop the dying from these viruses. I don't have a kid, but would him/her most definately vaccinated, as I am.

And that 'I know more' bullshit is exactly that. Mea Culpa. I am constantly amazed at the breadth of expertise in so many field here on this board.

I often assume a 'devils advocate' stance, like when i taught in class, to get many sides of an issue introduced. When dome here; any irony is lost and it sounds trite. Ack!

See my Idiot thread in the Confessional. D'OH!!

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This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 12-12-03 @ 5:31 AM

[reeshy]

As a health professional, I urge all of my board members to look into getting the influenza vaccine. I had a sister die in 1974 of the Hong Kong strain of the flu so I know, first hand, that the flu virus is nothing to laugh at. Do yourself a favor and shut up and get it. Thank you.

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[TooCute]

Ahh my bad for misuderstanding your post, MtT :)

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[El Mudo]

After watching "The Stand" just the threat of a pandemic of anything scares the holy hell out of me..

Anyone else wanna go to Stovington, Vermont?

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[Butters]

God forbid I get the flu and have a valid excuse to skip school for a week, I might go ....More insane.

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