Any conservatives here that DON'T approve of Bush? [Archive]

TheMojoPin

12-17-2003, 08:48 PM

Three seconds before someone goes for the cheap pussy joke.

OK, I'm pretty damn liberal. Yet I'll readily criticize both Al Gore and Bill Clinton. I can't really stand either, especially when they were in office. But I've yet to actually hear a staunch conservative ANYWHERE actually even express displeasure or disapointment at ANYTHING Bush has done in office.

Is this really the case?

Are ALL of the conservatives here behind Bush no matter what?

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Snoogans

12-17-2003, 08:50 PM

i dont know much about politics. from what im told im pretty much straight down the middle independant. i persoanlly thought clinton was a great president, and aside from doing something that Kennedy did a hell of alot more, did a ton of good.
on the other hand, i think Bush is a pompous ass and i dont like him one bit.

i have no idea what all this means though

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HBox

12-17-2003, 08:52 PM

It means you're one of the good ones.

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monsterone

12-17-2003, 09:07 PM

i didn't vote for bush, but i approve of most of his current policies. far too so to say if i vote for him or not, but the democrats are in shambles, and honestly, it seems like most politicians are changing their song and dance week to week.

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Se7en

12-17-2003, 10:02 PM

It's not so much that we really approve of him.

It's that you guys don't.

We're stubborn. We'll be damned if we agree with "your kind", at least in public.

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This message was edited by Se7en on 12-18-03 @ 2:03 AM

monsterone

12-17-2003, 10:12 PM

i don't know why you edited your post, you had it right the first time se7en.

as americans, we bicker and fight, but, just like a family, when someone fucks with one of you, they fuck with the rest.

you get behind what it means to be a family/ nation

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TheMojoPin

12-17-2003, 10:45 PM

as americans, we bicker and fight, but, just like a family, when someone fucks with one of you, they fuck with the rest.

What?

Is this about 9/11?

Doesn't it kinda cheapen it to make it a "free pass" for our politicians?

If it wasn't about that, I have no clue what you're trying to say. And I refuse to believe that all the conservatives here support everything Bush has done or said 100%.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 12-18-03 @ 2:47 AM

monsterone

12-17-2003, 10:53 PM

i was referring to backing bush as a conservative.

an aggressive strategy toward terrorism is good, but the growth in the economy has been limited and unbeneficial towards me. regarding foreign policy, he has my near full support, but domestically, maybe what i see is too pre-mature.

mojo, in your ideal world, what would libs be doing to resolve the concerns of our nation?

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This message was edited by monsterone on 12-18-03 @ 2:59 AM

Reephdweller

12-18-2003, 02:28 AM

The interesting thing to me about Bush is that there will be many times where I question why the hell he will do this or that, and I will say to myself that I'm happy with the job that he does. But then every once in a while he does something that reminds me of why I like him. Ultimately I approve of the job he's done. I'm not 100% in total agreement of all that he does, but I believe he's done a good job overall.

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Johnny4

12-18-2003, 02:44 AM

I'm a consider myself a conservative and my biggest criticism of Bush is that he turned a budget surplus into a deficit as soon as he took office. That 300 dollar giveback right before 9/11 will be looked at as one of the worst timed bad decisions of his time in office. I thought it was a bad idea from the start.
The spending of the GW presidency is out of control. The deficit created during his time in office(only 3 years) is abominable and will be one of the things he will have to answer for. Unfortunately his answer will be he inherited these problems, and anyone with 1/2 a brain knows that is not true.

I didn't see anything, I didn't hear anything, I wasn't there and if I was there I was asleep.

Reephdweller

12-18-2003, 03:02 AM

Johnny4, on the flipside to that - Bush could argue that the reason for the increased spending was that Clinton had way overcut areas that shouldn't have been cut, and for the sake of national security he had to spend to rebuild those areas where we were weak. Primarily one of the areas we were severely lacking in was in was in intelligence gathering. I'm not saying that this is accurate but will be one of the arguments I believe that will be made. In essence I can see a indirect accusation that Clinton's cutting of military spending ultimately lead to the events of 9/11. I know a recent study found that we should have had enough evidence to prevent 9/11, but I also think it will be one of the arguments made. I don't necessarily agree, and as much as I didn't approve of the job of Clinton as president I won't put blame on him for 9/11. I don't put it on anyone really. I can just see the arguments that will be made. I've already heard it made to some extent from time to time from hearing politicians.

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Reephdweller

12-18-2003, 03:09 AM

(white text disclaimer to above post)

This is a disclaimer, because someone will undoubtedly take my words out of context, to claim that the statements I made above are my beliefs, when in fact I stated I don't agree. I was mearly pointing out what I can foree the discussion in the political climate to be come election/re-election time.

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Teenweek

12-18-2003, 03:10 AM

Too much government spending and did not need that medicare bill. There, see I criticized him. And with jobs, I work in the finance industry. We got rid of about 40% of the workers in 3 big job cuts after 9/11. We worked harder for the same pay. But we were able to do the job that these people did. Management sees this and says why do I need to hire more people when less people are getting the same job done.

Now back to praising Bush for the economy on the rise and the winning the war on terror.

A.J.

12-18-2003, 04:58 AM

I wasn't exactly thrilled during the last State of the Union when he announced more spending and government expansion. I was disappointed in the case for war in Iraq. But for the most part I like him.

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Tazz

12-18-2003, 05:03 AM

I wish he would change his stance on gay marriage and stem cell research, but other than that, he's ok in my book.

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fluffernutter

12-18-2003, 05:05 AM

Very far leftie Liberal here and I know this wasn't directed in my direction but oh well.

I don't have anything personal aginst Mr. Bush but I just don't trust the guy. I have read so much about what little deals and maneuvers he has pulled to in turn make things better for HIM and not for the Country I just question where he is coming from.

I think the Iraq situation turned out to be a good plan. I am not going to say anything wrong about Iraq because ultimtely, you and I and our next door neighbours are over there fighting the war. Our guys are busting balls over there and doing the work and I can't fault that.

I think Mr. Bush is shady and dis-honest.

Ever get the feeling when watching any of his speeches that he is speaking to the American people like we are children and he is telling us a story? Either that or like he is talking down to everyone and he just comes off like such a pompous ass. I can only hope and pray for someone else to be in office come next January.

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curtoid

12-18-2003, 05:11 AM

Any conservatives here that DON'T approve of Bush?

Does Joe Lieberman count????

The five times I've voted for President, twice was for a Republican, twice was for a Democrat and once was for an Independent, and so far I'm 3-2. I don't feel that I'm a liberal or a democrat, I've just been pushed there by a Republican party that has been shangheied by the extreme right, and the smug entitlement of those in power.

Before, during and after the war I found a certain degree of comfort from John McGlaughlin (of the McGlaughlin group), who was very critical of the war - more so than the Dixie Chicks, actually! Also, Pat Buchanan (of all people) was riled up about going in, and was often pointing to the Project for the New American Century as the real reason for us going in - how this was planned way before 9/11.

Other than that (and Fezzie, too, I suppose), I've seen the Republicans stick to their guns. My Dad lapses in and out of it from time to time - occasionally saying something that sounds like a real opinion, rather than something he read on some conservative website.

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It's not so much that we really approve of him.

It's that you guys don't.

We're stubborn. We'll be damned if we agree with "your kind", at least in public.

I've always suspected that Bush is the right's answer to Clinton; they know his being in office drives the left ape-shit (much the same way Bubba still does), and they don't care - they would rather go down with the ship than admit how damaging many of his policies are for everyone.

Meanwhile - as Mojo said - I've seen quite a few liberals be critical of Clinton. Maybe when this administration is done the same will happen with Bush.

It's all about payback, much like the Impeachment of Clinton was payback for Watergate. There were so many other Republicans out there that they knew wouldn't get under the skin of those that supported Clinton (McCain comes to mind), yet they chose to run (to quote NOFX) an "idiot son of an asshole."

I'm pretty much done with the Republican party, and unless their candidate does something to really impress me, I may be done with Democrats too.

[KOP]

A.J.

12-18-2003, 05:21 AM

Ever get the feeling when watching any of his speeches that he is speaking to the American people like we are children and he is telling us a story? Either that or like he is talking down to everyone and he just comes off like such a pompous ass.

Actually, I got that more from Clinton than I do from Bush. Clinton was a far better public speaker but he always came off as smarmy and condescending (in my opinion).

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billyio

12-18-2003, 07:05 AM

I tread the middle ground with more of a liberal leaning. I think Bush is a strong military leader. Other than that, a weak president. The world hates us now,the deficit is out of control, and the economy is still shot in my opinion. I think our affairs in Iraq are a disaster,regardless of capturing Saddam. The political decision to declare victory in a war which has not ended is a major blow to an already spotty decision to go to war in the first place.

Ever get the feeling when watching any of his speeches that he is speaking to the American people like we are children and he is telling us a story? Either that or like he is talking down to everyone and he just comes off like such a pompous ass. I can only hope and pray for someone else to be in office come next January

I feel the reverse,like he's a child trying to explain to adults what he thinks.

I doubt that the Democrats can offer any opposition next November, unless the stock market crumbles to 7000 and we see higher casualties in Iraq.

See Ya!

Se7en

12-18-2003, 07:32 AM

I've always suspected that Bush is the right's answer to Clinton; they know his being in office drives the left ape-shit (much the same way Bubba still does), and they don't care - they would rather go down with the ship than admit how damaging many of his policies are for everyone.

While I disagree with the "going down with the ship" remark, otherwise this statement is VERY astute - Bush is, for all purposes, the conservative version of Clinton.

Now, don't shit all over that - I'm not saying they're similar in style or substance - but if you look at the situation today, it's very much like how it was during the Clinton era: the Republicans were downright fanatical of their hatred of Clinton, and were outraged by seemingly every move he made. We're in a similar situation now. I don't think *most* Democrats, at least the moderate ones, hate Bush, but there is a very strong core of Democrats or liberals who absolutely loathe him. And, like with Clinton, a lot of that hate can be totally irrational.

Meanwhile - as Mojo said - I've seen quite a few liberals be critical of Clinton. Maybe when this administration is done the same will happen with Bush.

Maybe. I strongly doubt he'll be spoken of in glowing terms like Reagan. He damn sure won't be criticized now, though, when there's an election to worry about.

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NewYorkDragons80

12-18-2003, 08:16 AM

I don't even consider you that liberal Mojo. You seem like a very practical thinker. Unlike most liberals (and conservatives) you are not an idealogue. Different situations call for different forms of response and you understand that. That being said, Bob Novak and Pat Buchanan have challenged Bush in Iraq. I think the President is doing a fair job in Iraq, but I'm not really a conservative.

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HBox

12-18-2003, 09:21 AM

TheMojoPin

12-18-2003, 09:25 AM

mojo, in your ideal world, what would libs be doing to resolve the concerns of our nation?

Well, I don't consider liberals running the show to be my ideal situation. I don't find Bush flawed because he's a conservative, I simply find him flawed as a president. That said, I don't think's he particularly "bad" or "awful" (I have concerns about those on his staff, but I had the same feelings when Clinton was in office)...when things are all said and done, he DID lead us through 9/11 and the economy is on the rebound. But overall, I think he's rather average, much like Clinton. In my ideal world a president would straddle the line...reduce government spending and the size of the government while placing more emphasis on states' rights and also having less aggressive (Or at least more consistent) stance millitarily and attempting to maintain our foreign relations with our longterm allies.

I'm not saying they're similar in style or substance - but if you look at the situation today, it's very much like how it was during the Clinton era: the Republicans were downright fanatical of their hatred of Clinton, and were outraged by seemingly every move he made. We're in a similar situation now. I don't think *most* Democrats, at least the moderate ones, hate Bush, but there is a very strong core of Democrats or liberals who absolutely loathe him. And, like with Clinton, a lot of that hate can be totally irrational.

KOP and Se7en are spot-on here. Both presidents had/have campaigns against them that are so blatantly shallow and partisan that it's sickening. A ton of my lefty friends will right off the bat say they won't vote for Bush JUST BECAUSE HE'S BUSH. No reasoning, no particular wronging...they just don't like him because of who he is as opposed to what he's done or not done.

winning the war on terror.

NOBODY can win a "war on terror" the way we're fighting it. Ever. It's infinite at this point.

I don't even consider you that liberal Mojo. You seem like a very practical thinker. Unlike most liberals (and conservatives) you are not an idealogue.

Thanks, I appreciate it. I think this thread actually shows how smart and reasonable most of the people here are when they're not on the defensive.

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high fly

12-18-2003, 09:34 AM

I have shown repeatedly on this board that Bush's word is no good. He has repeatedly reversed himself on his campaign promises, so that his supporters can rightly say: "This isn't the guy we elected (no, that's not a setup line for Gore supporters, so shaddap and siddown!).

The man is in over his head, pure and simple.

He brings to mind Lou Holtz's famous comment after his disastrous fling at NFL coaching: "We all rise to the level of our incompetence" (or something like that).

" and they ask me why I drink"

TheMojoPin

12-18-2003, 09:41 AM

In this day and age, that just doesn't cut it. A politician not fullfilling his promises is a given, not a revelation.

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high fly

12-18-2003, 11:10 AM

Then how do we know who to vote for?

" and they ask me why I drink"

TheMojoPin

12-18-2003, 11:14 AM

Drinking and then spinning the bottle.

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Bill From Yorktown

12-18-2003, 11:15 AM

We're stubborn. We'll be damned if we agree with "your kind", at least in public.

Lutherans?

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high fly

12-18-2003, 11:19 AM

Drinking and then spinning the bottle.

The drinking part I can handle.
Then I can at least kid myself that all hope is not lost...

" and they ask me why I drink"

furie

12-18-2003, 12:30 PM

I don't like Bush. I would have much rather had McCain. but there's no way in hell i'm voting for Dean.

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high fly

12-18-2003, 12:50 PM

Love McCain. It was downright dirty what Bush did to him in 2000.
Fuckin' disgraceful.

" and they ask me why I drink"

Reephdweller

12-18-2003, 03:18 PM

Ever get the feeling when watching any of his speeches that he is speaking to the American people like we are children

Actually I felt that WAY more with Al Gore, he'd tell you his stance on things, but he wouldn't just say how he felt, he'd explain it down to us like we're children and clearly not capable of understanding. It was so bad that he even had to reverse his style in the last election after they pointed it out on SNL.

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Se7en

12-18-2003, 03:56 PM

Fiscal conservatives are really starting to get ticked off by Bush. They like the tax cuts, but they REALLY don't like the spending increases and the deficits. So he isn't the Golden Child of conservatives.

Yes, I'm feeling that. As has been said before (by fiscal conservatives), he "spends like a Democrat."

If you want some conservative criticism of Bush, I'll give you three right now:

I strongly opposed him signing the campaign finance reform bill (which is just an awful law).

I oppose his stance on gay marriage (at the least, he should support civil unions, though I suppose so close to the election he doesn't want to upset his religious base, thought he should be trying to distance himself from them).

I oppose this sudden idea to allow illegals into the U.S. as "guest workers" - as shallow attempt to gain the Latin vote as I've ever seen.

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high fly

12-18-2003, 04:01 PM

I
I oppose this sudden idea to allow illegals into the U.S. as "guest workers" - as shallow attempt to gain the Latin vote as I've ever seen.

Yeah, like the legal immigrants will think it's a good idea...

" and they ask me why I drink"

Recyclerz

12-18-2003, 07:07 PM

Here's one:

Bush the Bumbler (http://slate.msn.com/id/2092791/)

BTW - I'm down with Critiques Two and Three.

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This message was edited by Recyclerz on 12-18-03 @ 11:11 PM

El Mudo

12-18-2003, 07:16 PM

I don't approve of the Medicare Bill, or the Campaign Finance Bill, and his opinion on Gay Marriage shouldn't even matter, this should be an issue to be resolved among the individual states as they see fit and not have the Federal Government involved. And the illegal immigrants thing where Ridge wanted to give them Social Security benefits for returning to Mexico made me absolutely sick. Other than that, he's done nothing I don't agree with...

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HBox

12-18-2003, 07:22 PM

I don't approve of the Medicare Bill, or the Campaign Finance Bill, and his opinion on Gay Marriage shouldn't even matter, this should be an issue to be resolved among the individual states as they see fit and not have the Federal Government involved.

That's why his opinion on gay marriage DOES matter. He wants to take it out of states hands.

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furie

12-18-2003, 07:27 PM

I oppose this sudden idea to allow illegals into the U.S. as "guest workers" -

it's not sudden. the H1B program has been bringing in hundreds of thoudands of "guest workers" a year since '90. now they're just talking about it.

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This message was edited by furie on 12-18-03 @ 11:39 PM

LiquidCourage

12-18-2003, 07:29 PM

I'm a conservative with Libertarian leanings, and I don't like Bush at all. He's done some good things, but as far as pushing the conservative agenda, Bush along with the Republican controlled Congress are complete failures. The spending is out of control. The cuts in military benefits are bullshit. The tariffs on various products are out of hand. I know this will shock people, but on many issues Bush is one of the most liberal presidents we've ever had. As far as the Iraq war goes, well I don't know how conservatism became this globalist, interventionist philosophy.

Se7en

12-18-2003, 08:12 PM

That's why his opinion on gay marriage DOES matter. He wants to take it out of states hands.

Yeah, but truthfully, that's what he'd have to do......The Defense of Marriage Act should, theoretically, take care of any full faith & credit problems should a state pass a pro-same-sex-marriage law, not every state has adopted a form of it, which is why a federal statute or amendment would be required if you *really* want to "safeguard" the "sanctity of marriage", and all that bullshit.

I know this will shock people, but on many issues Bush is one of the most liberal presidents we've ever had.

What he's been doing, with perhaps modest success, is strive to use Clinton's game-plan (there's the comparison again), and appeal to the moderates who make up the majority of the country by passing legislature like the Medicare bill which, conceivably, appeals to a broad base.

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NewYorkDragons80

12-18-2003, 08:13 PM

I don't even consider you that liberal Mojo. You seem like a very practical thinker. Unlike most liberals (and conservatives) you are not an idealogue.

Thanks, I appreciate it. I think this thread actually shows how smart and reasonable most of the people here are when they're not on the defensive.
I have been to a lot of message boards and the political discussions at rf.net are by far the most civilized ones to be found. We have very few troublemakers and very many thinkers.

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HBox

12-18-2003, 08:34 PM

I have been to a lot of message boards and the political discussions at rf.net are by far the most civilized ones to be found. We have very few troublemakers and very many thinkers.

Well, let's not start sucking each other's dicks just yet.

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Gvac

12-19-2003, 02:18 AM

He ran as a conservative, and even convinced me he was a conservative. George W. Bush is no conservative, however.

He's let me down more times than I care to tally, yet come election time I'll most likely vote for him again. Why? Just look at my choices.

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NewYorkDragons80

12-19-2003, 07:52 AM

Well, let's not start sucking each other's dicks just yet.

Don't look now, but I'm right in front of you...

In all seriousness, this (http://pub146.ezboard.com/flipoliticsmessageboardforumsfrm8) is one of the miserable places I post at. The nationstates.net message board is a zoo also.

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HBox

12-19-2003, 08:14 AM

Well, here are just a few topics from that link NYDragons:

Israel and America, a evil alliance
illegal aliens will destory America
Saddam is caught - EAT CROW liberals, the war is over!
Why France hates America
The American Empire

I'm too scared to even click on a topic. Yikes.

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blakjeezis

12-19-2003, 09:59 AM

As much as I'm ashamed to admit it, I will say that I do play a little 'partisan politics' when it comes to Bush. I certainly don't agree with everything he does, but I'm willing to give his rope a little more slack than saaaaaaay, I dunno, Clinton. I don't consider myself a Republican, nor do I consider myself a Democrat, but I do lean more to the consevative side on most issues. I mean, if you look at a majority of most peoples' view of candidates usually it's a 'lesser of two evils' situation. Since, really, the only legitimate choices we have are Dem or Rep, I'll take Rep. When it comes down to it, an overwhelming majority of politicians are slime. I just find that I can stomach the Rep slime a lot easier than the Dem slime.

Did that answer your question?

Will I criticize Bush? Yes.

Am I as quick to criticize Bush as I would be a Democratic President? As much as I hate to admit it, no.

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curtoid

12-19-2003, 10:11 AM

I am most comfortable when the balance of power is shared so they can even things out, and are forced to work with each other. I never like it when one side controls all of the branches of government. It's all about compromise.

It seems most people lean towards being conservative with respect to the national office, but liberal with the local. Not as a rule of thumb, of course.

[KOP]

high fly

12-19-2003, 10:16 AM

LiquidCourage

12-19-2003, 01:52 PM

He has a lot of balls talking of legalizing 8 to 12 million illegal Mexicans. What a conservative.

furie

12-20-2003, 07:22 PM

this made me laugh (http://www.strangecosmos.com/view.adp?picture_id=3947)

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high fly

12-21-2003, 01:21 PM

WRESTLINGFAN

12-23-2003, 06:44 PM

Buah needs to be tougher on the sunni triangle in Iraq. Thats where a majority of the violence against our boys is taking place. Fuck it, wipe out that area. if it can save the lives of our men over there than go for it

curtoid

12-24-2003, 04:44 AM

Too bad he's copied the Democrats in so many areas except the ones that REALLY count economically.

It's so easy too.
The Clinton Model For Dazzling Success in bringing THE GREATEST ECONOMIC BOOM IN HISTORY was jest a few years ago....

I have often felt that the reason the Democrats hated Clinton so much was that he beat them at their own game by being a Trojan horse for the moderates. I suspect many of the same rabid Republicans that foam at the mouth whe going on and on about the Clintons secretly are lusting after them - dying that they join the Republican party, where it's all about winners.

It took them two election cycles, but they finally found their man who they believe is their Clinton.

Phoneys! All of them!

Pah!

[KOP]

high fly

12-26-2003, 01:13 PM

Bush deserves a good clubbing for walking away from an unfinished war in Afghanistan.
Thousands of Al Qaida and Taliban found refuge just across the border in Pakistan, our (snicker) "ally" in the war against terrorism.
Pakistan helped us out by keeping 90% of it's army on the border with India, so that Al Qaida and the Talabans would have plenny of elbow room.
Bush shoulda told Musharraf: "Gang way, asshole, we're coming through!" and continued to pursue the bastards and kill them.

Bush should have not started another war until this one was over.

" and they ask me why I drink"

furie

12-26-2003, 08:40 PM

Bush should have not started another war until this one was over.

Ok, do you understand that invading Pakistan would have been another war?

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high fly

12-27-2003, 12:39 PM

Nawww. By not giving up the chase like he did, Bush would've simply been in what they call "hot pursuit".
Woulda been the same war.
Same troops,
same enemy,
a continuation of the same campaign.
By giving the bastards breathing room and a safe haven, he gave the terrorists that killed over 3000 Americans time to regroup, plan, recruit, rerarm and melt away, making hunting them down much tougher.
Had Bush & Co. had any REAL battlefield experience or knowledge of military affairs, they would know that it is a big, big mistake to go easy on the enemy when you've got them down.
Look at the effect of the bombing pauses in Viet Nam, look how Hitler let Britain off the hook in WWII, look at the failure to finish off Saddam in the first Gulf War, there are many other such cases in history.

" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 12-27-03 @ 4:41 PM

A.J.

12-27-2003, 02:44 PM

Had Bush & Co. had any REAL battlefield experience or knowledge of military affairs, they would know that it is a big, big mistake to go easy on the enemy when you've got them down.

It has more to do with diplomacy. You can't just invade the territory of an ally.

The fault was not properly securing the borders after the attack on the Tora Bora complex. Military leadership owned up to that.

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sleepyeyed_Jynx

12-27-2003, 02:55 PM

I'm independent, and I surely don't approve of Bush. Seriously, I can't see any good in anything the guys done.

1. The Tax Cuts: Wow, so he made his billionaire friends richer

2. Giving us back more money in our taxes: He just entered us all into another bracket to pay back even more money

3. The war in Afghanistan against the Taliban: Let's see, Saudia Arabia supports and finances the Taliban yet we don't go after them since the Bushs and the Princes have great ties together. Also, the Taliban we dispersed is coming back strong than before, yet most news stations won't mind to tell you that.

4. The war in Iraq: The only "accomplishment" that can be noted is that we captured Saddam who need I remind you was one of our agents in the middle east whom we financed, backed and supported to kill his own people who were anti-U.S. and back a war against Iran. Then we turned on him when he went after Kuwait, who weren't on our joint hitlist. We then imposed sanctions which drained their economy dry. Then, years later we go to war with him for doing everything we asked him to do, very good.

If there is ONE, just ONE conservative here who can make mush out of anything I just said, then I'd debate with them. But that isn't happening.

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MizzleTizzle

12-27-2003, 05:11 PM

Yes, sleepyeye et al, but look at what they say about Dean:

"People are left wondering: What will he say next?" "We need more than simple answers and the latest slip of the tongue,"

"At first, Dean said he would open his records when George W. Bush did. Turns out Bush's records were open." "Then he said he would let a judge decide, but now he's hiding behind an attorney general he himself appointed. It really makes you wonder what he's hiding."

"Those who doubted whether Iraq or the world would be better off without Saddam Hussein, and those who believe we are not safer with his capture, don't have the judgment to be president or the credibility to be elected president." "How can anybody say we're safer with Saddam Hussein in the world?"

"He seems to believe if you are just against everything, that is enough." "Dr. Dean has become Dr. No."

furie

12-27-2003, 05:34 PM

we go to war with him for doing everything we asked him to do

WHAT?!?

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sleepyeyed_Jynx

12-28-2003, 07:24 PM

News flash!

Him gassing the shi-ites, (i spelled it wrong), slaughtering them as well as going to war with Iran, WE BACKED HIM. The shi-ites were a threath to Saddam's power, and weren't fans of us either, so when Saddam needed the means to begin to dispose of them, guess who helped him out?

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TheMojoPin

12-28-2003, 09:02 PM

We didn't "help him" gas anyone. But you are right that we really didn't lose much sleep over those that were gassed, as that their numbers were packed with anti-American extremists and agitators. While it's horrendous that Saddam killed these people, it's hypocritical how it's presented (And ironically, by those who are usually the very model of Fox News-style Johnny-come-lately "patriots") that we're valiantly "bringing the killer of innocents to justice".

We didn't care at the time and it's a bit of a disgrace to the dead to attempt to do a 180 at this point.

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high fly

12-29-2003, 09:56 AM

We didn't "help him" gas anyone

Wrong-a-rooney!
Right after the deal with Saddam where the Commerce Dept., at Reagan's behest, lifted restrictions on exports to Iraq that included powerful poisonous agents from Dow Chemical and others, Saddam came out and said how he was going to use "insecticide to erase the invading vermin" or some such language that directly referred to him using those chemicals as weapons in his war with Iran. He followed through on his threat.
My memory is a little vague on him using chem weapons on the Shiites, but he definitely used them on the Kurds in the mountains near the Iranian border.
I refer y'all to the front page article in the Washington Post , last December 31st for the quote by Saddam and other details.

" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 12-29-03 @ 2:29 PM

TheMojoPin

12-29-2003, 10:02 AM

No, I'm not wrong.

We did NOT directly support nor "back" the gas attacks.

We actually just hung back, looked the other way, and did nothing at the time.

Not quite as horrendous, but still pretty fucking bad.

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Recyclerz

12-29-2003, 10:11 AM

Based on this Washington Post story Mojo seems to be closer to the mark:

Whattsa little WMD usage amongst friends? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13558-2003Dec18.html)

Although we officially frowned on use of chemical weapons, we sent Rumsfeld to assure Saddam that we still wanted to be their buddies.

[b]Sig-less in Gaza[b]

high fly

12-29-2003, 10:13 AM

Yuh huh-uh!

We gave him the stuff and he used it.
Or do you think Saddam really just needed to take care of the roaches at his palace?

Not only that, but we gave him advice and satelite imagery and interpretation that allowed him to know our capabilities and how to frustrate them later on in that area.

We helped both sides at a time when both sides were carrying out terrorist attacks against the U.S..When they found out, both sides got even more pissed and distrustful than they already were, making later diplomacy that much more dificult.

" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 12-29-03 @ 2:26 PM

TheMojoPin

12-29-2003, 10:23 AM

We gave him the stuf and he used it.

Which is what I said.

Supporting or backing the attack implies we knew about it ahead of time and approved it, or told him to do it, or planned it with him, or whatever.

Like I said, it's unforgiveable we gave the guy this stuff, but WE DID NOT SUPPORT OR BACK THE GASSING OF THE KURDS. Spin thee away...

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high fly

12-29-2003, 10:41 AM

Good one Recyclerz, I was about to refer to that article. The really good one is the one last Dec.31st.

Mojo, I think we're basically in agreement. At the moment, nothing comes to mind about our foreknowledge of Hussein's use of WMDs on either the Kurds or Shiites.
To me, exporting helicopters that had a military use and were indeed used in the war, as well as trucks and other dual use equipment, the chem/bio agents, the satelite intel (oooooh I like dropping "intel"!), and the military advisors could be classified as "support".

" and they ask me why I drink"